Old pcb > new art?

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Mike Elliott

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Oct 5, 2006, 2:46:20 PM10/5/06
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I have a friend who services old equipment from a manufacturer who is
out of business. He is generally able to effect repairs and get the
customers up and running again, but on occasion he finds a circuit board
so badly damaged or mistreated that he'd rather start with a nice fresh
new one. Of course the circuit board artwork is long gone. The boards
are 70's era, single-sided designs with big through-hole components and
fat traces (30mil max, is my guess). Simple stuff, really.

He asks me, how can he get new boards made? And I had to tell him that I
reckon a fellow could find a clean one, and scan it, use it as the basis
for a new design. But that's as far as my guesses take me. He needs a
small-budget, cheap and cheerful low-tech solution. Ideas?

He's located in Oklahoma, if anyone nearby can do this kind of work.

DJ Delorie

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Oct 5, 2006, 2:55:49 PM10/5/06
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Mike Elliott <j.michae...@gmail.com> writes:
> He asks me, how can he get new boards made? And I had to tell him that
> I reckon a fellow could find a clean one, and scan it, use it as the
> basis for a new design. But that's as far as my guesses take me. He
> needs a small-budget, cheap and cheerful low-tech solution. Ideas?

PCB has an option for using a scanned image as the background of the
working area, so you could design a circuit board using it as a
reference.

Mike Elliott

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Oct 5, 2006, 3:06:37 PM10/5/06
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Cool feature! That's PCB as in http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ ?

Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.

-- mike elliott

JeffM

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Oct 5, 2006, 3:37:17 PM10/5/06
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DJ Delorie wrote:
>>PCB has an option for using a scanned image
>>as the background of the working area,
>>so you could design a circuit board using it as a reference.
>
Mike Elliott wrote:
>Cool feature! That's PCB as in http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ ?
>
Yup.

> Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.
>

We keep telling the gEDA boys
that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would be way cool.

Every consider a dual boot to Linux?

**Install "PCB" under Windows**
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:VBsSPv1ihqYJ:archives.seul.org/geda/user/Feb-2005/msg00252.html+on.*.*.Window.*+experience.with.PCB.on.Windows+I-managed-to-install-PCB+zzz+installed.Cygwin+successfully.and.simply+and.did+startx+Feb-2005

Stuart Brorson

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Oct 5, 2006, 4:29:15 PM10/5/06
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JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

: DJ Delorie wrote:
:>>PCB has an option for using a scanned image
:>>as the background of the working area,
:>>so you could design a circuit board using it as a reference.
:>
: Mike Elliott wrote:
:>Cool feature! That's PCB as in http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ ?
:>
: Yup.

:> Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.
:>
: We keep telling the gEDA boys
: that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would be way cool.

*Chuckle* We gEDA boys keep telling folks like you to join the fun
and contribute to the project by creating such a CD! ;-)

FWIW, there already is a Knoppix-like CD with gEDA on it: Quantian,
which is a distro concentrating on providing open-source scientific
and engineering apps. Here's more info:

http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian.html

Also, Cambridge Univ (UK) has created a live CD for use in its
engineering curriculum; their CD includes gEDA on it. The idea is
that they can then use gEDA as the preferred EDA environment in their
teaching and laboratories. Indeed, we gEDA boys are
currently collaborating with the group at Cambridge on improving gEDA
in ways making it more convenient for student use. Read about it here:

http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/CD/index.html

I'm not sure if the folks at Cambridge will release the CD publically;
that remains to be seen.

: Every consider a dual boot to Linux?

If you can purchase a new computer for a couple of hundered dollars,
what's the barrier to just putting a brand spanking new Linux box on
your desk next to your Windoze box & then loading the Linux box up
with gEDA, PCB, Icarus Verilog, GTKWave, Gnucap, NGSpice, Octave,
Scilab, and the zillions of other open-source packages out there? I
mean, at some point the "Win 2000 or XP" requirement begins to sound
like an excuse for simply being behind the curve. . . . . .

Stuart

DJ Delorie

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Oct 5, 2006, 4:35:24 PM10/5/06
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Mike Elliott <j.michae...@gmail.com> writes:
> Cool feature! That's PCB as in http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ ?

Yes.

> Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.

There's a build script in the source tree for building under Cygwin or
MinGW; I suggest trying the CVS head first as there have been some
recent improvements in that. You'll need the Gtk libraries installed.

DJ Delorie

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Oct 5, 2006, 4:37:40 PM10/5/06
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"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> writes:
> We keep telling the gEDA boys that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would
> be way cool.

We agree, but we're short on people willing to work on it. Stuart
spends most of his effort on the install CD.

We've made progress since then :-)

Mike Elliott

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Oct 5, 2006, 5:31:18 PM10/5/06
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On 10/5/2006 12:37 PM JeffM wrote:

> DJ Delorie wrote:
>>> PCB has an option for using a scanned image
>>> as the background of the working area,
>>> so you could design a circuit board using it as a reference.
> Mike Elliott wrote:
>> Cool feature! That's PCB as in http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ ?
>>
> Yup.
>
>> Sorry, I didn't specify the OS: Win 2000 or XP.
>>
> We keep telling the gEDA boys
> that a Knoppix-like CD of gEDA would be way cool.
>
> Every consider a dual boot to Linux?
>

Well . . . that's not going to happen. Though he's handy at keeping a
specialized kind of old machine alive, in his day job he is an
accountant. You wanna hold an accountant's hand on this?

I'm hoping to find a primitive solution for him, which can be done under
Windows -- or by hand. Like, scan it and enlarge it 2:1, toss on some
frosted Mylar and stick crepe tape and pads on it. Like in 1970. But
that stuff is probably not available now, and it's not clear if his wife
would like him to take over the kitchen table for that.

Or scan it and use it as a background in a vector graphics program, like
Adobe Illustrator, then simply (and crudely) draw tracks. Even a CPA
could do that. Either way, he'd need to do a old-school non-NC drill and
fab drawing. I'd probably volunteer to help him make one by hand.

Or a turnkey service that could work off a physical board.

--
mike elliott

DJ Delorie

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Oct 5, 2006, 6:33:24 PM10/5/06
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Mike Elliott <j.michae...@gmail.com> writes:
> I'm hoping to find a primitive solution for him, which can be done
> under Windows

So... build pcb for windows, use the scanned board as a background.

> -- or by hand. Like, scan it and enlarge it 2:1, toss on some
> frosted Mylar and stick crepe tape and pads on it. Like in 1970. But
> that stuff is probably not available now, and it's not clear if his
> wife would like him to take over the kitchen table for that.

More likely, scan the board, touch it up in photoshop or gimp, and
print it. Depends on how you're going to fab the board - if you're
going to do it at home (toner transfer, photo etch), printing is fine.
If you want a fab to make it, you'll need gerbers, and something like
PCB to generate them.

> Or scan it and use it as a background in a vector graphics program,
> like Adobe Illustrator, then simply (and crudely) draw tracks. Even a
> CPA could do that.

If you can use illustrator, you can use PCB. It has a "line" tool and
a number of common footprints (TO-92 and DIP, for example), or a "via"
tool for pads for the odd ones.

JeffM

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Oct 5, 2006, 8:41:00 PM10/5/06
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Stuart Brorson wrote:
>there already is a Knoppix-like CD with gEDA on it:
>
Ah. A well-kept secret...and the changelog page linked below
shows that somebody in this group really fell down on the job
not getting the word out for over 2 years.

>Quantian, which is a distro concentrating on
>providing open-source scientific and engineering apps

>http://dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian.html
>
Many of the included apps aren't mentioned on Dirk's main page
--specifically not gEDA. I had to dig a bit to verify that:
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:h1CdvTYEM6sJ:dirk.eddelbuettel.com/quantian/changelog.html+2004-07-31+electronics.design.software.suite+geda
That being said, VERY COOL.

>Also, Cambridge Univ (UK) has created a live CD for use
>in its engineering curriculum; their CD includes gEDA on it.
>

(Cool * 2).

>I'm not sure if the folks at Cambridge will release the CD publically;
>

8-( Make that (Cool * 1.5).

>that remains to be seen.
>

I'm curious about the thought process on that.
.


JeffM wrote:
>>Every consider a dual boot to Linux?
>
>If you can purchase a new computer for a couple of hundered dollars,
>what's the barrier to just putting a brand spanking new Linux box
>on your desk next to your Windoze box
>

If you have the space for it: Sure.

>I mean, at some point the "Win 2000 or XP" requirement
>begins to sound like an excuse for simply being behind the curve.
>

Resistance is futile. http://www.google.com/images?q=bill-borg+-Vissa
8-)

Mike Rocket J Squirrel

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Oct 6, 2006, 10:13:35 AM10/6/06
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DJ Delorie wrote:
> Mike Elliott <j.michae...@gmail.com> writes:
>> I'm hoping to find a primitive solution for him, which can be done
>> under Windows
>
> So... build pcb for windows, use the scanned board as a background.
>
>> -- or by hand. Like, scan it and enlarge it 2:1, toss on some
>> frosted Mylar and stick crepe tape and pads on it. Like in 1970. But
>> that stuff is probably not available now, and it's not clear if his
>> wife would like him to take over the kitchen table for that.
>
> More likely, scan the board, touch it up in photoshop or gimp, and
> print it. Depends on how you're going to fab the board - if you're
> going to do it at home (toner transfer, photo etch), printing is fine.
> If you want a fab to make it, you'll need gerbers, and something like
> PCB to generate them.

Yeah, but why do we need gerbers? I have not been inside a pc shop since
I worked in one in the early 80's. Sensitized boards were exposed to a
1:1 image taken from a photographic film. I have it in my head that
gerbers are used to generate that image.

My friend who needs these boards has located a 1:1 pdf of the art. Seems
possible that the art could be turned directly into the needed image
directly if he can find a shop that still knows how to expose off of film.

He'd need to make a hand marked drill drawing, and the board house would
need to make their drill file the old way: targeting the film by hand.
But with the help of a friendly board house willing to work with him, I
think he might have all that he needs to have some admittedly crude but
very workable boards.

Unless, of course, board houses no longer have the equipment and the
know-how to go from art to tooling. Then he's either going to learn PCB
or something, or he'll be making the boards at home.

He should probably look at how boards are made at home, to see if it's
something he wants to get into. Does anyone have a recommendation for a
good instructional "how to" web site?

-- mike elliott

Stuart Brorson

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Oct 6, 2006, 11:35:45 AM10/6/06
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JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:
: Stuart Brorson wrote:
:>Also, Cambridge Univ (UK) has created a live CD for use

:>in its engineering curriculum; their CD includes gEDA on it.
:>
:>Read about it here:
:>http://www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk/CD/index.html
:>
: (Cool * 2).

:>I'm not sure if the folks at Cambridge will release the CD publically;
:>
: 8-( Make that (Cool * 1.5).

:>that remains to be seen.
:>
: I'm curious about the thought process on that.

They bundle ProE on the same CD. ProE is -- of course -- proprietary,
so there are some considerations related to distributing the CD. For
use within Cambridge Univ you need to run it using a licence server
accessible only to students. For external users with no access to the
licence server, ProE is inactive. Nonetheless, I'd suspect that PTC
(the makers of ProE) don't want their stuff too easily downloadable
since there are plenty of hackers out there who know how to spoof a
licence server. . . .

At least that's my understanding of the situation, and my knowledge
may be incomplete, so consider it worth what you paid for it! ;-)

Stuart

Jamie

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Oct 6, 2006, 3:10:59 PM10/6/06
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Mike Elliott wrote:

good digital camera on the foil side, and a good paint program to clean
it up and recolor the surface. then make sure the size is 1:1, reverse
it and send the Black & White to a laser printer using ink just photo
paper (smooth style), iron on clean copper board then was under water..
the toner will go on the board. then etch it.
etc..


--
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

JeffM

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Oct 6, 2006, 12:02:58 PM10/6/06
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JeffM

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Oct 6, 2006, 12:11:59 PM10/6/06
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Mike Elliott

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Oct 6, 2006, 12:31:22 PM10/6/06
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On 10/6/2006 9:02 AM JeffM wrote:

> Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>> Does anyone have a recommendation for a good instructional
>> "how to" web site?
>> mike elliott
>
> Take your pick:
>

Thanks, Jeff!

Hal Murray

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Oct 6, 2006, 1:30:46 PM10/6/06
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>Yeah, but why do we need gerbers? I have not been inside a pc shop since
>I worked in one in the early 80's. Sensitized boards were exposed to a
>1:1 image taken from a photographic film. I have it in my head that
>gerbers are used to generate that image.

You don't need them if you are making the board yourself.

If you want to use a board shop, they expect gerbers.

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

Mike Elliott

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Oct 6, 2006, 7:35:21 PM10/6/06
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On 10/6/2006 10:30 AM Hal Murray wrote:

>> Yeah, but why do we need gerbers? I have not been inside a pc shop since
>> I worked in one in the early 80's. Sensitized boards were exposed to a
>> 1:1 image taken from a photographic film. I have it in my head that
>> gerbers are used to generate that image.
>
> You don't need them if you are making the board yourself.
>
> If you want to use a board shop, they expect gerbers.

In Ye Olde Days, I delivered 1:1 films and a drill drawing to the board
house. In the case of a single-sided board, the film was used to create
a "silk" screen, which was used to put resist on boards that were bought
pre-clad with copper. Where there was no resist, the copper was etched
off in a tank of some noxious-looking fluid.

Double-sided boards used a different process, whereby the film was used
to "sensitize" non-clad boards, which were then plated with copper.

Either way, a photographic film was the starting point. I recall an
operator using a rig called a "bomb sight" to find the XY coordinates of
all the pad holes on the film and create a (paper tape) drill files used
by the Excellon drill machines.

As time progressed and we entered this hurley-burley modern age of ours,
Gerber photoplotters were used to create the films from digital files,
and delivering a film to the board house was no longer needed.

But if shops can't work with anything but a Gerber file, then that
suggests that they skip the film-to-screen process, which suggests that
they would have no use whatsoever for films, which means that walking
into a shop with a mailing tube of films under my arm would be a waste
of time because they wouldn't know what to do with it. How do they get
the image onto the board material?

-- mike elliott

nospam

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Oct 6, 2006, 8:14:06 PM10/6/06
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Mike Elliott <j.michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

>But if shops can't work with anything but a Gerber file, then that
>suggests that they skip the film-to-screen process, which suggests that
>they would have no use whatsoever for films, which means that walking
>into a shop with a mailing tube of films under my arm would be a waste
>of time because they wouldn't know what to do with it. How do they get
>the image onto the board material?

Photographic reproduction techniques are still alive and well. I don't know
of any process to plot directly on production material (except homebrew pen
plotting). It wouldn't be economical for much more than one offs.

The board house may want gerbers to make adjustments for their processes
and as reference for optical inspection or netlist extraction for
electrical testing. They may also want to add tooling features and use the
gerbers as a reference for routing. Having gone through the process once
they would use the same photoplots and data for subsequent batches.

I'm sure they would like drill data rather than having to create and if
they do have to create it I'm sure they would prefer a gerber file for
reference to create it electronically on a computer rather than optically
on a drilling machine.

Strangely board houses do seem to end up creating route profiles, it seems
to be an area not well supported by PCB CAD packages.

--

DJ Delorie

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Oct 6, 2006, 8:59:09 PM10/6/06
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nospam <nos...@please.invalid> writes:
> Strangely board houses do seem to end up creating route profiles, it
> seems to be an area not well supported by PCB CAD packages.

I asked one about that, preparing to add route exports to PCB. They
didn't want it. It's too easy to damage their machines with invalid
profiles, they'd rather do it themselves from a CAD outline.

Mike Rocket J Squirrel

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Oct 9, 2006, 8:53:16 PM10/9/06
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Solved it. Just got off the phone with my friendly Altium tech guy and
he suggested simply converting the pdf of the board art into a black and
white bitmap, then using the logo importer script to bring it into a new
pc board on a mechanical layer. Place tracks and pads over the placed
art, and Bob's your uncle.

Functionally the same as suggested we do in PCB, w/o the need to change
operating systems. However, it does fall into my darn lap to do the work
for the guy because he certainly isn't going to buy and learn Altium
Designer for this one board.

-- mike elliott

DJ Delorie

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Oct 9, 2006, 9:18:28 PM10/9/06
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Mike Rocket J Squirrel <j.michae...@GOLLYgmail.com> writes:
> Functionally the same as suggested we do in PCB, w/o the need to
> change operating systems.

PCB runs on Windows, Mac, and Unix. What operating system would you
have to switch from? OS/2?

JeffM

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Oct 10, 2006, 12:14:19 AM10/10/06
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Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>Just got off the phone with my friendly Altium tech guy and he suggested
> . . . using the logo importer script to bring it into a new pc board

>on a mechanical layer.
>Place tracks and pads over the placed art, and Bob's your uncle.
> -- mike elliott

You'd think this would be better publicized
by the ECAD vendors whose wares can do it.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.basics/browse_frm/thread/73424b5d8a61d05b/48832626729b98c5?q=*-applications-transparent+put-TraxMaker-in-front-*-*+set-TraxMaker's-opacity-to-around-145+zzz+easy-to-see-in-photoshop+They-are-highlighted-when-traced

Christopher Ott

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Oct 10, 2006, 12:35:58 AM10/10/06
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Logo importer script? Is this new since Protel99SE? I've wanted to do this
very thing on several occasions, and always had to regenerate the logo
freehand...

Chris


"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" <j.michae...@GOLLYgmail.com> wrote in message
news:esednUrJINuZcrfY...@adelphia.com...

Mike Rocket J Squirrel

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Oct 10, 2006, 9:17:13 AM10/10/06
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Did I mis-read the earliest responses to my OP? The thread took an
immediate turn to gEDA / Knoppix & dual-booting to Linux. It was all
geek-speak to me, gave me the distinct impression that PCB wasn't a
Windows app and needed some fancy OS jiggery-pokery for my friend with
the pcb scan, a CPA with less knowledge of OS's than I (if that is
possible), to run. If I misunderstood all that (which I apparently did,
not surprising since I know nothing about playing with OS's) then I
apologize!

-- mike elliott

Mike Rocket J Squirrel

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Oct 10, 2006, 9:19:34 AM10/10/06
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Maybe they consider it to be a trivial capability, primarily suited to
importing a company's logo. I bet that it's a rare day when someone
needs to trace over an old board.

-- mike elliott

Mike Rocket J Squirrel

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Oct 10, 2006, 9:29:04 AM10/10/06
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Christopher Ott wrote:
> Logo importer script? Is this new since Protel99SE? I've wanted to do this
> very thing on several occasions, and always had to regenerate the logo
> freehand...
>
> Chris

I dunno when it was added - I jumped from Protel 3.x to AD6.3. In AD one
can look under File > Import, and they provide a Logo Creator script in
their script examples. Also see
http://www.proteluser.com/showthread.php?t=3160

You can also go register at altium.com to join the user forum. Lot of 99
questions there.

-- mike elliott

Chuck Harris

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Oct 10, 2006, 9:35:24 AM10/10/06
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Though I don't use MS for anything at all, as I understand it, gEDA
can be built on windows using an interface layer. As far as the
user/installer is concerned, it just works.

-Chuck Harris

Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

JeffM

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Oct 10, 2006, 12:42:32 PM10/10/06
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DJ Delorie wrote:
>>PCB runs on Windows, Mac, and Unix.
>>What operating system would you have to switch from? OS/2?
>>
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>Did I mis-read the earliest responses to my OP?
> -- mike elliott
>
Not so much "mis" as "miss".

>The thread took an immediate turn to gEDA / Knoppix
>& dual-booting to Linux.
>

Yup. A *solution* was offered.

>It was all geek-speak to me,
>gave me the distinct impression that PCB wasn't a Windows app
>

Here's where "miss" comes in:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/3b6f24029a8b34cf/609099d973d4bc41?q=Install-PCB-under-Windows+*-*-*-progress-since-then
DJ pointed out that getting gEDA onto a Windoze box
is now even easier than my ancient link indicates
(though he was chincy with the details).

"Open Source Software 101: The Real Beauty of the Concept"
http://www.google.com/search?q=open-source+can-be-compiled-for-any+any-platform+OR+any-*-platform+OR+any-operating+OR+any-*-operating+-any-Unix&num=100

"Open Source Software 201: Making Unix Apps Work Under Windoze"
http://www.google.com/search?q=compile+OR+compiled+MinGW+Cygwin+Unix-environment&num=100

>and needed some fancy OS jiggery-pokery for my friend

>[...]a CPA with less knowledge of OS's than I
>
Stuart offered the coolest solution EVER
for how a Windoze user can get gEDA working on his box
WITHOUT **INSTALLING** A SINGLE THING.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/3b6f24029a8b34cf/5ef0c2c6f82294d6?q=Quantian+dirk.eddelbuettel+with-gEDA+zz-zz+Knoppix-like.CD

If you are bandwidth-challenged,
these folks will ship you a disk for $2:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site:frozentech.com+Quantian&filter=0&num=100

>It was all geek-speak to me,
>

It appears you have been in hibernation for several years
and have missed one of the coolest things to come down the pike:
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:Knoppix
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:live+CD

Another example of such a bootable CD
(which allows Linux to save Windoze users' butts):
Emergency Boot CD
http://www.google.com/search?q=EBCD+Windows+Problems&num=100
It gets around the broken-by-design nature of NTFS
--as supplied by M$ (think: Klein flask).
http://66.102.9.104/images?q=Klein-bottle

DJ Delorie

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Oct 10, 2006, 2:09:13 PM10/10/06
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"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> writes:
> DJ pointed out that getting gEDA onto a Windoze box is now even
> easier than my ancient link indicates (though he was chincy with the
> details).

Because I've never done it myself. Dan has, and he maintains the
build script for Windows.

Same for OS/X. I've gotten email saying it "just works" but I've
never done it myself.

Joel Kolstad

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Oct 10, 2006, 4:45:41 PM10/10/06
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"Mike Rocket J Squirrel" <j.michae...@GOLLYgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5CdnRIDvdxwALbY...@adelphia.com...

> Maybe they consider it to be a trivial capability, primarily suited to
> importing a company's logo.

Some video cards, e.g., those from nVidia, contain a feature in their driver
that will let you change the opacity of any window on a Windows 2000 or XP
box; I imagine there are standalone utilities to do this as well. (I mean...
we really are talking about a simple OS function call here to create the
opacity "feature" -- it's just a question of whether the application calls it
itself or some other program slightly hi-jacks the window to do it...)

> I bet that it's a rare day when someone needs to trace over an old board.

Agreed.


Mike Elliott

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Oct 10, 2006, 5:38:04 PM10/10/06
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On 10/10/2006 9:42 AM JeffM wrote:

> DJ Delorie wrote:
>>> PCB runs on Windows, Mac, and Unix.
>>> What operating system would you have to switch from? OS/2?
>>>
> Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
>> Did I mis-read the earliest responses to my OP?
>> -- mike elliott
>>
> Not so much "mis" as "miss".

Hey. You callin' me a /sissy/?

-- mike elliott

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