Good, relatively low cost PCB layout SW?
Robert Baer
BUT.
It is impossible to get useable documentation.
After a longwinded download, Adobe Acrobat reader complains that it
is damaged and cannot be fixed.
The so-called 24 hour response took a week and the attached "copy"
was as bad, and the second time was also bad.
So scratch PCB123 at any price, because without documentation, it
becomes useless when one needs immediate help and/or guidance.
**
Eagle?
The trial version loaded, but was completely non-functional.
So why should i pay for something that i cannot try out?
**
Ivex Winboard?
Trial version worked to all expectations, liked the incremental
pricing and have used it a lot. *Really* liked the library
compiler/decompiler - used it a lot to create many new and necessary pad
layouts.
BUT.
It is impossible to put surface mount parts on the back, so one has
to "fudge" by using two "front side" layout files; PITA and then some
(lemme see, shall i mirror the back side gerbers? Where do i put offset
vias to make them work in real life? etc?).
And the company is dead, so there is no possibility of improvements.
**
IDEAL:
1) *one* part layout that can be used for either front or back; let the
computer figure out what to do regarding pin numbers, and non-symmetry.
2) something as easy or easier than the WinBoard compiler/decompiler,
only add a graphical editor: move this over here, widen this pad there,
make an arbitrary external graphic (GIF?) into a pad/padset, etc.
3) be able to *group* and ungroup objects at will, copy and paste at
will, move any object from one side to the other at will (in short, be
as flexible as Corel Draw).
4) at least a trial version that can do all that the full version can do
- just limited in some reasonable manner (like Ivex did), say number of
pins, number of days, library size, combinations of these. But full
documentation *easily* available (not force one to use IE or some exotic
reader like the USPTO does).
5) some kind of stepped pricing scheme where small useage has an
affordable price for the little guy/ experimenter, mid pricing for those
that need more useage, and reserve the bigg buck$$ for the bigg users. I
suggest a stepping based on pins, like Ivex did; very reasonable approach.
Suggestions?
Leon
Helmut Sennewald
From: "Robert Baer" <rober...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.cad
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:40 PM
Subject: Good, relatively low cost PCB layout SW?
> Someone had recommended PC123; a bit large for POTS but doable.
> BUT.
> It is impossible to get useable documentation.
> After a longwinded download, Adobe Acrobat reader complains that it is
> damaged and cannot be fixed.
> The so-called 24 hour response took a week and the attached "copy" was
> as bad, and the second time was also bad.
> So scratch PCB123 at any price, because without documentation, it
> becomes useless when one needs immediate help and/or guidance.
> **
> Eagle?
> The trial version loaded, but was completely non-functional.
> So why should i pay for something that i cannot try out?
Hello Robert,
ten thousand people have downloaded EAGLE and have used it
without problems. I just downloaded it a few minutes ago just
to test it. It immediately worked. Now think about your conclusion.
Best regards,
Helmut
JeffM
>The trial version loaded, but was completely non-functional.
>
Yours is the 1st testament of out-of-the-box failure that I've heard.
.
.
>4) at least a trial version that can do all that the full version can do
>
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/4610130aa5f13f7e?q=*-first-three-problems+have-*-been-addressed+Aug-*+zzz-zzz+It's-free-and-runs-on-both-Windows-and-Linux
.
.
>...PC123...It is impossible to get useable documentation.
>
KiCAD is an Open Source offering originated by some French academics.
The English docs followed quickly.
The development team seems very responsive to user input.
DMBPr...@aol.com
I also endorse the Easy-PC product. Though I've been using it's big
brother Pulsonix for several years I just had a look at the latest
version of Easy-PC, version 9, and it's still be far the best budget
priced product around.
Prescott
Terry Pinnell
See my notes and links to some 60 ECAD programs at
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/ECADList.html
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK
Robert Baer
It is true that others have said they had no problems with Eagle.
But if i cannot get it to work it is useless for me.
And i have read about layout problems, difficulty inmaking new
patterns, etc - all of which decreases my motivation to try again.
Can you say (now, after some revisions since i last tried it about a
year ago) that most of my (idealized) wishes would be reasonably
satisfied with Eagle?
Robert Baer
I do not mind paying som reasonable amount for the prog.
But at "104 megs zipped" it is totally impossible to obtain via POTS.
Robert Baer
Can a trial version be downloaded via POTS in under 45 minutes?
If not, can a trial version be bought on CD for under $10?
Robert Baer
Thanks; will heck that out along with EasyPC.
JeffM
>>
>I do not mind paying som reasonable amount for the prog.
>But at "104 megs zipped" it is totally impossible to obtain via POTS.
So, you're thinking that no one in the users group
would be willing to burn a CD and mail it to you?
Software chauvinism being what it is,
I rather doubt that would be a problem.
Robert Baer
So... are you offering, and if so, how much and name/address for check?
Robert Baer
Number One Systems has this frame to put in a bunch of info (which i
did) and a "submit" button.
The screen gets refreshed and one sees the same frame with info as
before.
What gives?
Paul Burke
> I also endorse the Easy-PC product. Though I've been using it's big
> brother Pulsonix for several years I just had a look at the latest
> version of Easy-PC, version 9, and it's still be far the best budget
> priced product around.
Though I see they've dropped the lowest cost version, the one they used
to sell for 98UKP. Maybe they've compensated by adding functionality to
the demo version, which was a bit silly, as it couldn't save. You really
need time to evaluate a PCB program, and having to start from scratch
each session will put a lot of people off.
The demo download is about 6Mbytes, so about 35 minutes on a typical 56k
modem.
Paul Burke
Paul Burke
> The demo download is about 6Mbytes, so about 35 minutes on a typical 56k
> modem.
No it's not, it's 23Mbytes.
Leon
problem.
Leon
Jasen Betts
> I do not mind paying som reasonable amount for the prog.
> But at "104 megs zipped" it is totally impossible to obtain via POTS.
how so? I have dowloaded over half of Debian woody (8 CDroms so far) call it
5Gigs, over POTS.
104 megs will only take all night to download, something like "get right"
will help with resuming aborted downloads if you're running windows
(handy if your ISP has a time limit etc...)
Bye.
Jasen
Joel Kolstad
automatically have nets connect by copying/pasting (or duplicating) a bunch of
components and their associated nets "on top of " some other nets. I was
really surprised to find this -- ORCAD, PCAD, and most other packages I've
tried in the past 5 years all do this! It has been mentioned to me that
allowing this behavior is potentially "risky," so I can see some checkbox for
whether or not it should be allowed, but for someone used to working in this
style of design entry it's a real producitivity killer.
Similarly, drawing a line past a bunch of pins (say all your power pins
sticking out of the side of a larger symbol) doesn't connect the net to those
pins -- something that can make what could be a "two click" operations a
"twenty click" operation if you have 10 pins you wanted connected to the same
net. (Although, in all fairness, just like other programs you can pre-assign
a net to a bunch of pins and not show them on the schematic, but personally
I've preferred to show all power pins ever since the likelihood that
"diagonally opposite pins = +5V and Gnd" went the way of the dodo about a
decade ago. Hiding lots of information like power pins numbers certainly
makes the schematic look a little nicer, but for me this benefit is outweighed
by the utility of being able to know, from a paper schematic, where one ought
to find power -- and what the voltage should be -- during troubleshooting.)
In general, Pulsonix/EasyPC are well-written programs that are fast and
'clean,' -- they're still lacking some of the features that the big boys have,
but I haven't regretted spending the money on Pulsonix yet.
---Joel
Richard Kanarek
PCB" and (if you please) "Rimu Schematic" from www.hutson.co.nz ?
Cordially,
Richard Kanarek
NOT affiliated with Hutson Systems in any way.
Robert Baer
They are sending me a CD, and at no charge; *excellent* support!!
Robert Baer
"104 megs will only take all night to download" ??
You are nuts!
Robert Baer
I really appreciate the mention of copying groups; i have one very
busy board with 40 items that interconnect to each other exactly the
same way.
So i layout four, and "step and repeat" to get 8, then dup the set
for 16 etc until have 32 then dup a group of 8 for that total of 40.
So i know exactly what you mean.
The bad thing was that Ivex winBoard would not allow any SM on the
back side - otherwise i could theoretically have dupped the 40 and
flipped for the back side.
Being an electronic tech for over 40 years, i agree that
documentation should be complete - even if the schematic looks "messy".
One never knows when troubleshooting is needed, and pin functions
have always been vital since the days of 4-pin, 5-pin, etc tubes and
with plate and grid caps.
The added info (eg: Tektronix) of voltages and waveforms at notable
or useful test points adds to the useability of a schematic for the test
tech.
Robert Baer
Am open to all; will look into it and compare with the others.
Thanks.
Simon Peacock
manufacturers. It also looks far better in a forest.
Simon
"Robert Baer" <rober...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3XBef.2392$c27...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
RST Engineering (jw)
Do you have a legit copy of an obsolete Windows version of Easy-PC you'd be
willing to sell? I used Easy-PC DOS about fifteen years ago and it was a
bitch kitty when trying to make new parts. It was also DOS-Version specific
so when Microlimp came out with a new version of MSDOS, Easy-PC choked on
it. I couldn't mess around with what was then hobby-level software with
buggy parts.
I've heard you all rave over the newer versions, but I'm not all that
thrilled with the demo I downloaded a couple of years ago. Perhaps the
cripple code made it less than I expected.
I've also got about ten years of CircuitMaker/TraxMaker PCB files that I
will have to port over to whatever new program I decide upon. CM can export
in Protel, Tango, Orcad, and a few more, and TM can export in Gerber or
ProtelText format. Do you happen to know if EZPC can accept any of these
formats?
Thanks,
Jim
"Leon" <leon_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131804480....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Joel Kolstad
news:437a...@news2.actrix.gen.nz...
> Rimu happens to be a beautiful hardwood tree very popular among furniture
> manufacturers. It also looks far better in a forest.
In New Zealand they're no longer allowed to cut down new rimu, so there's now
a thriving market in recycling old rimu furniture into new pieces. Having to
leave in some of the holes, cuts, etc. that are already there from the
original piece sometimes makes the new piece quite artistic...
Paul Burke
> I used Easy-PC DOS about fifteen years ago and it was a
> bitch kitty when trying to make new parts.
It REALLY is easy now.
>
>I'm not all that
> thrilled with the demo I downloaded a couple of years ago. Perhaps the
> cripple code made it less than I expected.
>
They are making a big mistake in not letting you create a very limited
design as Eagle does. Though I think Eagle might have to limit a little
more in the future. 80x100 is now one of my larger PCBs!
Paul Burke
JeffM
>80x100 is now one of my larger PCBs!
> Paul Burke
2 layers?
Paul Burke
I don't know how good Eagle's copper pour is (EasyPC's is excellent),
but I've had very good EMC results using a poured groundplane with
plenty of vias stitching the two sides together. Though most PCBs tend
to be 4 layer these days.
Paul Burke
Jasen Betts
I don't pay by the minute for dialup internet (or for local calls),
and neither want nor expect any phone calls while I sleep.
I say let the computer work while I sleep.
why am I nuts?
Bye.
Jasen
toob...@gmail.com
My name is Todd Clifton, I am the product manager for PCB123.
I admit I am biased, but PCB123 is an excellent tool, PCB123 has had
over 200,000+ downloads and thousands of downloads of our manuals with
no issues. We are even willing to mail, at our cost printed user
manuals to all that ask.
We know that our schematic tool is weak and it is slated to be replaced
in 2006. I challenge anyone to try out our technical support, call us
free of charge, you will not be disappointed. The number is
1-800-228-8198 and we love constructive criticism, it is the only way
we can truly understand what is working and what is not working. Our
tool it totally customer driven and not bogged down with isosteric
features. If you need the software mailed on CD let us know at
sup...@pcb123.com and we will gladly send you a copy at no cost.
Please see what other customers have had to say:
http://www.pcb123.com/pcb123customers.php
Please keep the feedback and constructive criticism coming our way.
Todd
Ian Bell
> Hi everyone,
>
> My name is Todd Clifton, I am the product manager for PCB123.
>
> I admit I am biased, but PCB123 is an excellent tool, PCB123 has had
> over 200,000+ downloads and thousands of downloads of our manuals with
> no issues. We are even willing to mail, at our cost printed user
> manuals to all that ask.
>
Except its serious disadvantage is it can only be used to make PCBs in your
factory.
Ian
DJ Delorie
Ian Bell <ruffr...@yahoo.com> writes:
> Except its serious disadvantage is it can only be used to make PCBs
> in your factory.
gEDA/PCB produces industry standard gerbers (RS-274X) but I've seen at
least one fab that charged extra if you didn't send them a
cad-package-specific all-in-one file. I.e. a gerber surcharge.
Ian Bell
Not sure about your point but I was not referring to gEDA.
Ian
RST Engineering (jw)
boards at your facility.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Go AWAY. How's THAT for constructive criticism?
Jim
<toob...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134776111....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
DJ Delorie
Ian Bell <ruffr...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > gEDA/PCB produces industry standard gerbers (RS-274X) but I've seen at
> > least one fab that charged extra if you didn't send them a
> > cad-package-specific all-in-one file. I.e. a gerber surcharge.
>
> Not sure about your point but I was not referring to gEDA.
I know, I was offering a contrast. Plus pointing out that it's not
just the software vendors that penalize standards.
Rich Webb
<j...@rstengineering.com> wrote:
>Except, you idiot, you have written software that can only be used to make
>boards at your facility.
Be nice. Top-posters should generally refrain from imprecations and
calumny.
>BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
>
>Go AWAY. How's THAT for constructive criticism?
Standard Gerber files are indeed, well, standard. However, for the
onesie-twosie user, a proprietary format isn't that big a deal --
especially if the overall project cost is acceptable. It's not like
their target customer is intending to go out for multiple bids on 100K
lots, is it?
I'm personally happy with the gEDA toolchain but I can see where the
PCB123 guys could have a useful market niche.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Leon
they accept GC-Prevue GWK files, so one doesn't have to use one of
their supported packages.
Leon
Ian Bell
Got you.
Ian
DJ Delorie
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking about. I was also thinking about
adding GWK support to PCB but with such an easy workaround... except
for the windows dependency.
Phi Dung Mo
just a collection of imported Gerber layers. It takes less than a minute to
import and set them up in a GWK, so what is the difference between a GWK
file and a collection of individual Gerbers?
I have to believe that these places (that don't want Gerbers or charge a
surcharge for Gerbers) are simply playing marketing games.
--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.
"DJ Delorie" <d...@delorie.com> wrote in message
news:xnk6e3n...@delorie.com...
Stuart Brorson
: The hypocrisy of that situation is that GC-Prevue's GWK file is really
: import and set them up in a GWK, so what is the difference between a GWK
: file and a collection of individual Gerbers?
: I have to believe that these places (that don't want Gerbers or charge a
: surcharge for Gerbers) are simply playing marketing games.
I do agree with you that refusing individual Gerbers seems silly.
However, I wonder if the idea is that the .gwk file organizes the
Gerbers into a defined stack-up order, and thereby minimizes the
possibility of mistakenly mis-ordering the layers during
manufacturing?
Yes, smart people name their Gerbers with names caling out the
ordering sequence, and also provide a stack-up in the README & fab
dwg. However, these PCB houses might be dealing with
less-than-clueful students and hobbiests. Also, it is always possible
for somebody in manufacturing to mess something up despite the most
carefully crafted design package.
Stuart
Leon
originally, and I used to get the occasional phone call from them, as
the software I was using didn't identify the layers automatically and I
sometimes forgot to provide a file explaining what they were. The
software I use now generates names like "Elsie_en_2(Silkscreen
Top).gbr" so that it's quite obvious what they are. GC-Prevue is useful
anyway for checking that a border has been included and that drill
holes haven't. PCB-Pool don't mind them, but some other suppliers
object to them.
Leon
Paul Urbanus
I purchased RimuPCB, and found it to be the most intuitive PCB layout
package I ever tried to use. I was productive almost immediately, and
finished a 4-layer surface mount design.
There was *ONE SMALL* problem - the gerbers for the inner (plane) layers
weren't generated properly. I sent an email to the developer, along with
my files, and a fixed version was available in less than 8 hours.
Urbite
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Boris Mohar
>Richard Kanarek wrote:
>> How about the badly named but (I think???) otherwise well done "Rimu
>> PCB" and (if you please) "Rimu Schematic" from www.hutson.co.nz ?
>>
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Richard Kanarek
>>
>> NOT affiliated with Hutson Systems in any way.
>
>I purchased RimuPCB, and found it to be the most intuitive PCB layout
>package I ever tried to use. I was productive almost immediately, and
>finished a 4-layer surface mount design.
>
>There was *ONE SMALL* problem - the gerbers for the inner (plane) layers
>weren't generated properly. I sent an email to the developer, along with
>my files, and a fixed version was available in less than 8 hours.
>
>Urbite
>
I have looked at it but not tried it yet. Nevertheless I am tempted to say
WOW! Did they drop a zero in the price?
--
Boris Mohar