Fritzing ??

[Jim Thompson]

Anyone using "Fritzing" ??

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I'm looking for work... see my website.

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

I'm not allowed to. It's "for non-engineers."


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

[Martin Riddle]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:37:39 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>
>I'm not allowed to. It's "for non-engineers."

Pencil and Engineering paper rules!

Cheers

[John Larkin]

Yes. I draw schematics on D-size vellum with a Berol Turquoise F
pencil. It gets me out of my chair, away from a screen for a while. I
have a guy who enters my designs into PADS and lays out the board.

I did this all by myself recently, for a number of reasons, partly to
learn the new PADS.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/T840_E1.jpg

But schematic entry on a screen is tedious; drawing is fun.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson
>

Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination. I haven't
used one of those since I was a teenager, though I've held my nose and
helped other people who were doing it. (They'll probably learn
eventually, if they build anything complicated enough to be nontrivial
to debug.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[legg]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Usenet's collapse predated the Arduino.

Just another layer of CAD....

CAD programs weren't originally designed with their targeted users in
mind, hence the learning curve, knowledgeable or not, from paper to
keyboard.

RL

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:01:38 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
>Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination. I haven't
>used one of those since I was a teenager, though I've held my nose and
>helped other people who were doing it. (They'll probably learn
>eventually, if they build anything complicated enough to be nontrivial
>to debug.)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

I worked for a while with a guy in Alameda, service work for ships. He
did a couple of controllers for shipboard steam turbines using the
white things, and glued them inside engine room consoles. I didn't
keep that job for long.

I did design a digital synchroscope for him, but a lot of other people
did too.

[krw]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:01:38 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
>Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination. I haven't
>used one of those since I was a teenager, though I've held my nose and
>helped other people who were doing it. (They'll probably learn
>eventually, if they build anything complicated enough to be nontrivial
>to debug.)

I used them for _one_ project in college. I kept burning my fingers
on '709s as they lost contact with their compensation networks. The
prof I was working with was getting pissed because I kept burning up
expensive opamps, until he did it.

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 20:24:11 -0400, Martin Riddle

Potential customer of a client of mine... needing applications
assistance... handed off to me >:-}

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
> ...Jim Thompson

Fritzing is basically a method of doing breadboards using the worst
possible breadboard possible (stripboard), and then morphing the
resulting mess into a PCB. The resultant hardware, software, PCB, and
designs are expected to open sourced to the multitudes.
Ummm... no thanks.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=fritzing&tbm=isch>
<http://fritzing.org/projects/>
<http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/fritzing-takes-your-design-from-breadboard-to-pcb/>

Got any static sensitive parts? This should blow them up nicely:
<http://fab.fritzing.org/how-to/paperplacementTest.jpg>


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:37:39 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>> ...Jim Thompson

>I'm not allowed to. It's "for non-engineers."

Fritzing seems to be all about building breadboards before committing
to a PCB. Since you don't do breadboards and go directly from the
design to the PCB, you probably don't need fritzing. Besides, I don't
think any of your designs will work on a "stripboard". My RF stuff
certainly won't.

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:22:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:37:39 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
>><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>>I'm not allowed to. It's "for non-engineers."
>
>Fritzing seems to be all about building breadboards before committing
>to a PCB. Since you don't do breadboards and go directly from the
>design to the PCB, you probably don't need fritzing. Besides, I don't
>think any of your designs will work on a "stripboard". My RF stuff
>certainly won't.

Most of the projects shown on the Fritzing web site seem to not get
beyond the plastic protoboard stage.

I breadboard on copperclad FR4, or lay out a multilayer board for
complex stuff.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z382_1.JPG

You can do 100 ps/3GHz stuff this way, or maybe faster.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:17:03 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>Fritzing is basically a method of doing breadboards using the worst
>possible breadboard possible (stripboard), and then morphing the
>resulting mess into a PCB. The resultant hardware, software, PCB, and
>designs are expected to open sourced to the multitudes.
>Ummm... no thanks.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=fritzing&tbm=isch>
><http://fritzing.org/projects/>
><http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/fritzing-takes-your-design-from-breadboard-to-pcb/>
>
>Got any static sensitive parts? This should blow them up nicely:
><http://fab.fritzing.org/how-to/paperplacementTest.jpg>

Anything that gets kids interested in real electronics is good, even
if it teaches them some bad habits.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:40:18 -0700, John Larkin
<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>>Got any static sensitive parts? This should blow them up nicely:
>><http://fab.fritzing.org/how-to/paperplacementTest.jpg>

>Anything that gets kids interested in real electronics is good, even
>if it teaches them some bad habits.

Agreed, but I'm a bit old skool and prefer to show kids how to use a
soldering iron, how to make dead bug prototypes, and why stripboards
and solderless breadboards suck. The problem with these is that they
promote all kinds of bad habits and construction errors. In my never
humble opinion, stripboards and solderless breadboards are dead ends.

OfF the top of my cranium:
1. No ground plane.
2. Split power bus.
3. No consideration for lead inductance and intertrace capacitance.
4. Intermittents caused by crappy connections, usually due to shoving
oversized leads, such as 1 watt resistors, into holes made for smaller
wire diameters. Or, just too small wire diameters.
5. Excessive component lead lengths.
6. SMT parts are difficult to use and require adapters.
7. Temptation to directly transfer the layout from stripboard to PCB.
8. Layout should follow signal flow, which is lost on a stripboard.
9. Mechanical parts are awkward (pots, variable caps, pot cores, big
components of any type, heat sinks, power xsistors, etc).
10. Digital buses are messy and consume too much breadboard space.
11. Whatever else I forgot.

I've had to deal with two former techs, that learned to breadboard
everything on stripboards and solderless breadboards. It took me a
while to prove to them that RF circuits on stripboards were
impossible, and that there was little difference in time spent on
stripboard, versus various other PCB based breadboard methods. I
haven't helped get kids started in electronics for a long time, but I
suspect that an early intro to SMT parts and soldering might be more
useful than a solderless breadboard based dead end.

Incidentally, I got a phone call from a local college student with a
problem. He had been designing and modeling various digital and
analog circuits on a computah for a few years. He never bothered to
learn how to stuff a PCB or hand solder because he had his friends
available to do it for him. It was now a skool vacation and all his
friends were elsewhere. I ended up doing the stuffing and soldering
for him (for free). He seemed to believe that such activities were
beneath the dignity of the designer. I guess we may be producing a
generation of electronic engineers where fritzing is the best that
they can do, and who really don't know which end of the soldering iron
to grab.

[Tim Williams]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:u2ohlbda88gm8uit0...@4ax.com...

> I've had to deal with two former techs, that learned to breadboard
> everything on stripboards and solderless breadboards. It took me a
> while to prove to them that RF circuits on stripboards were

> impossible ...

Without seeing an example, I will dare say... I can prove you wrong by
building your "impossible" circuits. ;-)

Hey, I originally developed circuits like this on solderless breadboard,
http://seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Discrete_Tube_Supply.png
Note the reduced shunt voltage drop. Ground inductance can make that tricky
(you'll easily read 50-100mV of "bounce"), but it still manages to work.
With proper layout, I mean, but it's nothing that wouldn't be "obvious"(?)
to someone who's made successful PCB layouts.

Mostly, all the crap you see on the scope probe, is an artifact of the scope
probe itself. Or, more accurately, of the common mode voltage the
breadboard is throwing off, that the circuit itself doesn't see because it's
a voltage that's not dropping across the circuit.

That one time I did a 500kHz, 100W resonant converter on solderless
breadboard was interesting. The 24AWG jumpers didn't want to stay in the
sockets, on account of their getting too hot from the reactive current.
Still worked fine though.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 23:29:55 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
>news:u2ohlbda88gm8uit0...@4ax.com...
>> I've had to deal with two former techs, that learned to breadboard
>> everything on stripboards and solderless breadboards. It took me a
>> while to prove to them that RF circuits on stripboards were
>> impossible ...

>Without seeing an example, I will dare say... I can prove you wrong by
>building your "impossible" circuits. ;-)

I might have to scan some photographs, but I think I can find some
examples. I have photos of some rather messy breadboards that worked
nicely.

Most of what I do is RF. RF begins where signals prefer to radiate
instead of conduct. The rule of thumb is "wires radiate, components
do not radiate". The solderless breadboards are nothing but radiating
wires at RF frequencies.

Also, if done some damage control on RF designs that were reasonably
well calculated, with decent components, but which didn't work as
expected when crammed into a tiny enclosure. The usual problem was a
general failure to keep the signal path from crossing over itself,
resulting in an unwanted feedback loop, which is very much like a
stripboard, with it's crossed traces on opposite sides of the PCB.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=stripboard&tbm=isch>

>Hey, I originally developed circuits like this on solderless breadboard,
>http://seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Discrete_Tube_Supply.png
>Note the reduced shunt voltage drop. Ground inductance can make that tricky
>(you'll easily read 50-100mV of "bounce"), but it still manages to work.
>With proper layout, I mean, but it's nothing that wouldn't be "obvious"(?)
>to someone who's made successful PCB layouts.

What frequency does the switcher run? You could probably get away
with a solderless breadboard at 1Mhz switching, with harmonics to
about maybe 3MHz. Anything higher than maybe about 7MHz and the
parallel capacitance between "wires" in the solderless breadboard
might cause problems. Fortunately, your circuit avoids high
impedances, so it probably would work without coupling problems.

>Mostly, all the crap you see on the scope probe, is an artifact of the scope
>probe itself. Or, more accurately, of the common mode voltage the
>breadboard is throwing off, that the circuit itself doesn't see because it's
>a voltage that's not dropping across the circuit.

Sure, at maybe 1MHz. However, at higher frequencies, the long power
bus wires of the solderless breadboard begin to look like inductors,
which will have voltages impressed across the bus sections if there's
any current flowing through the bus.

>That one time I did a 500kHz, 100W resonant converter on solderless
>breadboard was interesting. The 24AWG jumpers didn't want to stay in the
>sockets, on account of their getting too hot from the reactive current.
>Still worked fine though.

Sigh. This sounds like you're stretching the limits of what can be
done on a solderless breadboard. Melting the plastic is not what I
would consider "working fine". Also, I suspect you could have built
the circuit using a 3D rats nest of wires and components held together
on a piece of PCB material, in less time, and with better results than
a solderless breadboard.

Messy solderless breadboards:
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=messy+breadboard>

From a Bob Pease book cover:
<http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/images/Bob-Pease-Breadboard.jpg>

[Phil Hobbs]

On 06/08/2016 09:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:01:38 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>
>>
>> Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination. I haven't
>> used one of those since I was a teenager, though I've held my nose and
>> helped other people who were doing it. (They'll probably learn
>> eventually, if they build anything complicated enough to be nontrivial
>> to debug.)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> I worked for a while with a guy in Alameda, service work for ships. He
> did a couple of controllers for shipboard steam turbines using the
> white things, and glued them inside engine room consoles. I didn't
> keep that job for long.

Yikes. Of course the number of nasty kludges onboard your average ship
makes that a drop in the bucket.

[Tim Williams]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message

news:i2thlbp9jp8fqvjmr...@4ax.com...

> Also, if done some damage control on RF designs that were reasonably
> well calculated, with decent components, but which didn't work as
> expected when crammed into a tiny enclosure. The usual problem was a
> general failure to keep the signal path from crossing over itself,
> resulting in an unwanted feedback loop, which is very much like a
> stripboard, with it's crossed traces on opposite sides of the PCB.
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=stripboard&tbm=isch>

I never understood stripboard; it's such a mess electrically, leaving loose
antennas hanging off the end of basically every node. I'd always preferred
pad-per-hole, but even better, copper clad once I got used to it.

That's another thing, copper clad doesn't work well for ICs. Sure you can
"dead bug" them, but I don't trust myself to make sense of the pins upside
down. I usually cut and notch strips of PCB, so I have pads to solder the
IC leads to (folding them out like gull-wing SO's, except I suppose it's not
small, but a LOIC).

> What frequency does the switcher run? You could probably get away
> with a solderless breadboard at 1Mhz switching, with harmonics to
> about maybe 3MHz. Anything higher than maybe about 7MHz and the
> parallel capacitance between "wires" in the solderless breadboard
> might cause problems. Fortunately, your circuit avoids high
> impedances, so it probably would work without coupling problems.

That one runs up to a few hundred kHz (I forget exactly; it's not terribly
important as it varies with operating level, too), with harmonics into the
10s of MHz. An arguably advantageous aspect of those discrete designs:
since their loop gain is limited on account of the number of active devices,
they don't make harmonics too high. Switching speed and efficiency is still
fine, but it just doesn't push things crazily fast.

Kind of like that LT "low noise" part with all the slew rate control, except
I don't need a complicated freaking IC to do it, it just does it on its own.

> Sure, at maybe 1MHz. However, at higher frequencies, the long power
> bus wires of the solderless breadboard begin to look like inductors,
> which will have voltages impressed across the bus sections if there's
> any current flowing through the bus.

I have two advantages: I usually use the stuff with pairs of buses, so I can
get low inductance. The other is, if I've wired it correctly, then stabbing
a bypass cap in the local area will do nothing.

Most of these kinds of situations, you can clip the scope probe to its
ground lead, and prod the circuit with the grounded probe. If you see
transients, you're picking up common mode: some part of the circuit is
producing a reaction against, probably the power cable, or maybe radiating
into space.

If you're reading the same transient, but it appears on a signal, it's
illusory. For example, you'll read that transient at the ground side of a
shunt resistor, because it's not coming from the resistor (at least, not
directly and locally). You'll read it at the active end too, but it's just
as illusory.

Wherever I'm probing, if that transient changes by adding bypass, then I can
keep moving it closer to the offender and fix it. If not, I can safely
ignore it, because it's not that it's actually in the circuit, it just looks
like it's everywhere.

So, an unexpected benefit, perhaps, is becoming an EMC expert too. ;-) Or
maybe I'm just such a bizarre person that I see fields where no one else
does, and therefore my breadboards magically can work out a decade higher
than anyone else's...

> Sigh. This sounds like you're stretching the limits of what can be
> done on a solderless breadboard. Melting the plastic is not what I
> would consider "working fine".

Curious, you have such disdain for them, yet you don't consider torturing
them as entertainment? :-)

> Also, I suspect you could have built
> the circuit using a 3D rats nest of wires and components held together
> on a piece of PCB material, in less time, and with better results than
> a solderless breadboard.

In this case, you are correct, it would've taken as long. But, wires in the
breadboard can be moved around in seconds, without soldering or cutting. So
I got where I wanted to go, much faster than soldering. Then I soldered it,
http://seventransistorlabs.com/Images/Fluo1.jpg
spending less time assembling than I would've otherwise, because I already
completed the layout.

(Heh, breadboard in the frame is unrelated. Actually, IIRC it is
functionally the core of a UC3808, which I wanted to try then and there,
without having to order a tube of the real parts and wait. Curiously, the
real UC3808 produces equal alternating pulse widths, while this version had
an imbalance not unlike the limit cycle of a UC3842 in CCM with no slope
compensation.)

[Phil Hobbs]

On 06/09/2016 08:31 AM, Tim Williams wrote:
>
> "Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
> news:i2thlbp9jp8fqvjmr...@4ax.com...
>> Also, if done some damage control on RF designs that were reasonably
>> well calculated, with decent components, but which didn't work as
>> expected when crammed into a tiny enclosure. The usual problem was a
>> general failure to keep the signal path from crossing over itself,
>> resulting in an unwanted feedback loop, which is very much like a
>> stripboard, with it's crossed traces on opposite sides of the PCB.
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=stripboard&tbm=isch>
>
> I never understood stripboard; it's such a mess electrically, leaving
> loose antennas hanging off the end of basically every node. I'd always
> preferred pad-per-hole, but even better, copper clad once I got used to it.
>
> That's another thing, copper clad doesn't work well for ICs. Sure you
> can "dead bug" them, but I don't trust myself to make sense of the pins
> upside down. I usually cut and notch strips of PCB, so I have pads to
> solder the IC leads to (folding them out like gull-wing SO's, except I
> suppose it's not small, but a LOIC).

I use dikes to gouge the bottom of the chip at the pin-1 end, which is
all you really need--otherwise it's just like debugging a board
upside-down, which we all had to do in the through-hole days.

I occasionally use Vector 8007, which has the colander ground plane and
pad-per-hole. It works OK except that the protos are flakier than dead
bug and much much slower to build. Dead bug rules.

[Tauno Voipio]

Have you thought to frame retired breadboards and sell them as pieces of
art?

I was lazy with the Dremel and used unetched copperclad FR4 as ground
plane with dead-bug mounted components on it. Of course, it is not well
suited for surface-mount components, but they are too hard for old eyes
anyway.

The electronic components shrink at the same speed as the eyes get worse
with age.

--

-TV

[Chris Jones]

For some things they are very handy, and they should not be dismissed
out of hand.

Things like common inductance in supply and ground lines are valuable to
learn about anyway. If you really understand these, then you can make a
surprising range of things work on a solderless breadboard. Still, for a
beginner I would avoid solderless breadboards for switching power
supplies, anything with ac signals under 10mV, anything operating above
about 5MHz, anything that needs really low capacitance or leakage, etc.
- What I usually do is build the "difficult" part (switcher, RF VCO,
sub-picoamp sample-and-hold stage, etc.) with solder on a little piece
of copperclad FR4, maybe with tinplate shielding, and then put short
wires (pins) on that stage and plug it into the solderless breadboard as
a component. The mundane, non-critical supporting parts of the circuit
(dc offset adjustment, power regulators, status LEDs, etc.) can then be
built very rapidly on the solderless breadboard.

For low frequency op-amp circuits, low-speed digital designs, PIC
microcontrollers, etc. they are great, mostly because you can try out
modifications in seconds rather than minutes.

To avoid frustration I suggest never sticking anything bigger than a 1/4
watt resistor lead into the holes (so e.g. I have a stock of power
transistors and zeners with little bits of resistor lead soldered to the
pins). It is also important to cut the leads of your resistors to get
them off the bandolier, so that the part with glue residue from the tape
doesn't go in the holes and gum them up with insulating glue. It
probably isn't a good idea to borrow or lend a solderless breadboard
unless the other person also adheres to those rules. Another thing to
watch out for is the solderless breadboards that come screwed to an
aluminium plate - had one where the screws touched the contacts inside
the breadboard causing inexplicable connections between parts of the
circuit. I think the double-sided foam tape that is used to stick down
most of the breadboards would be safer than the screws.

Chris

[John Larkin]

No. I keep them for future reference. The plastic breadboards are
generally reused, so the original circuit is lost.

We assign a project number to each breadboard, and document it in the
J:\Protos folder on a server. We include schematic (usually a
whiteboard photo), pics of the actual hardware, scope shots,
measurements, notes, whatever. That can turn out to be useful years
later. If something else needs to me measured, the original board is
still around.

>
>I was lazy with the Dremel and used unetched copperclad FR4 as ground
>plane with dead-bug mounted components on it. Of course, it is not well
>suited for surface-mount components, but they are too hard for old eyes
>anyway.

I do surface-mount breadboards, but I'm a live-bug fan. I use the
Bellen adapters for most ICs.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z356_SN2.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z338_PCB.JPG

>
>The electronic components shrink at the same speed as the eyes get worse
>with age.

I've always had mediocre vision. I got a Mantis on ebay and it's a
miracle; 0805 parts look big to me now.

A carbide dental burr and a Dremel can do pretty detailed stuff
freehand. It takes a bit of practise to get good at it, but it's fun.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z384_1.JPG

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 08:27:47 -0400, Phil Hobbs

<pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 06/08/2016 09:09 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 21:01:38 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>>
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination. I haven't
>>> used one of those since I was a teenager, though I've held my nose and
>>> helped other people who were doing it. (They'll probably learn
>>> eventually, if they build anything complicated enough to be nontrivial
>>> to debug.)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> I worked for a while with a guy in Alameda, service work for ships. He
>> did a couple of controllers for shipboard steam turbines using the
>> white things, and glued them inside engine room consoles. I didn't
>> keep that job for long.
>
>Yikes. Of course the number of nasty kludges onboard your average ship
>makes that a drop in the bucket.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

The big ships I worked on, container and LASH and tankers, were really
pretty good.

One LASH ship throttle control (my first PID design, back in New
Orleans) was having intermittent speed runaways, not a good thing when
docking 80,000 tons. I rode it from Oakland to San Pedro, guest of the
captain. It was a really nice trip down the coast. I found the
problem, a loose screw on a terminal strip that carried the feedback
tach signal, and the fix was to tighten about 300 screws on all the
terminal strips and remind the Chief to do that annually. There's lots
of vibration and thermal cycling down there in the engineering room.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 07:31:27 -0500, "Tim Williams"
<tiw...@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

>
>"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
>news:i2thlbp9jp8fqvjmr...@4ax.com...
>> Also, if done some damage control on RF designs that were reasonably
>> well calculated, with decent components, but which didn't work as
>> expected when crammed into a tiny enclosure. The usual problem was a
>> general failure to keep the signal path from crossing over itself,
>> resulting in an unwanted feedback loop, which is very much like a
>> stripboard, with it's crossed traces on opposite sides of the PCB.
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=stripboard&tbm=isch>
>
>I never understood stripboard; it's such a mess electrically, leaving loose
>antennas hanging off the end of basically every node. I'd always preferred
>pad-per-hole, but even better, copper clad once I got used to it.
>
>That's another thing, copper clad doesn't work well for ICs. Sure you can
>"dead bug" them, but I don't trust myself to make sense of the pins upside
>down. I usually cut and notch strips of PCB, so I have pads to solder the
>IC leads to (folding them out like gull-wing SO's, except I suppose it's not
>small, but a LOIC).

Use adapters! Live bug.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z356_SN2.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/BB_Boost1.JPG

[Phil Hobbs]

Yeah, you sorta have to do that with SMT chips, because otherwise the
leads get twisted off easily.

It occurs to me that "Fritzing" is probably derived from "on the fritz". ;)

[Tim Wescott]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

If it's what it seems to be I'll occasionally make a test circuit.

I know people are dissing the white breadboards, but if you're careful to
work within their limitations and don't try anything too large, they can
be quicker than building up a PCB -- particularly if you're exploring.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

I'm looking for work -- see my website!

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 13:05:31 -0500, Tim Wescott
<seemyw...@myfooter.really> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>If it's what it seems to be I'll occasionally make a test circuit.
>
>I know people are dissing the white breadboards, but if you're careful to
>work within their limitations and don't try anything too large, they can
>be quicker than building up a PCB -- particularly if you're exploring.

I haven't used that white breadboard stuff since the early '70's when
I had trouble with a circuit running at the horrendous frequency of
40kHz ;-)

I rarely breadboard today, since chips are rather high on the device
count. When I must, I use this sort of breadboard...

<http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/BreadBoard.jpg>

[Tim Wescott]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 11:17:48 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

> On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 13:05:31 -0500, Tim Wescott
> <seemyw...@myfooter.really> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>>If it's what it seems to be I'll occasionally make a test circuit.
>>
>>I know people are dissing the white breadboards, but if you're careful
>>to work within their limitations and don't try anything too large, they
>>can be quicker than building up a PCB -- particularly if you're
>>exploring.
>
> I haven't used that white breadboard stuff since the early '70's when I
> had trouble with a circuit running at the horrendous frequency of 40kHz
> ;-)
>
> I rarely breadboard today, since chips are rather high on the device
> count. When I must, I use this sort of breadboard...
>
> <http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/BreadBoard.jpg>
>
> ...Jim Thompson

I prototyped a microprocessor circuit on one. A very long time ago.

And a radio receiver. Also a very long time ago. A guy I worked with
for a very short period of time claimed to have built satellite receiver
front-end on one -- and he was a successful consultant, so I can't
completely dismiss his story.

Mostly today if I'm going to use one it's either because I need some sub-
audio op-amp circuit for a test, or because I want to verify that some
peculiar thing I'm doing really agrees with SPICE (again, at low
frequencies). Production circuits just get a PCB.

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Actually, the whole concept is wrong. Products should be designed, not
fiddled. We only breadboard to evaluate an underspecified part or a
bit of a tricky circuit, and the breadboard is NOT the prototype of an
entire product.

Bob Pease's classic hairball is way over the top. It shouldn't be
necessary to breadboard that much stuff. Besides, breadboarding a
hundred parts wastes too much time; it's better to do the design right
and lay out the final-product PC board. Of course, Pease hated
computers so he couldn't simulate.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

[Tim Wescott]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:00:24 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
> <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
> Actually, the whole concept is wrong. Products should be designed, not
> fiddled. We only breadboard to evaluate an underspecified part or a bit
> of a tricky circuit, and the breadboard is NOT the prototype of an
> entire product.
>
> Bob Pease's classic hairball is way over the top. It shouldn't be
> necessary to breadboard that much stuff. Besides, breadboarding a
> hundred parts wastes too much time; it's better to do the design right
> and lay out the final-product PC board. Of course, Pease hated computers
> so he couldn't simulate.

+1

Even if you can't or won't simulate, you should still be able to
breadboard the bits, and then glue the bits together after some pencil-
and-paper math.

[Phil Hobbs]

On 06/09/2016 03:11 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:00:24 -0700, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
>> <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>> Actually, the whole concept is wrong. Products should be designed, not
>> fiddled. We only breadboard to evaluate an underspecified part or a bit
>> of a tricky circuit, and the breadboard is NOT the prototype of an
>> entire product.
>>
>> Bob Pease's classic hairball is way over the top. It shouldn't be
>> necessary to breadboard that much stuff. Besides, breadboarding a
>> hundred parts wastes too much time; it's better to do the design right
>> and lay out the final-product PC board. Of course, Pease hated computers
>> so he couldn't simulate.
>
> +1
>
> Even if you can't or won't simulate, you should still be able to
> breadboard the bits, and then glue the bits together after some pencil-
> and-paper math.
>

Between undergrad and grad school, I took a couple of years off to go
build satellite telecom equipment. (I got stupid lucky--I had a brand
new physics and astronomy degree, and only a hobby electronics
background, but they took a chance on me.) I built 2/3 the timing and
frequency control system (*) for the first civilian DBS system dead-bug
style on a bunch of pieces of Cu-clad held together with copper tape,
including shields with little hinged lids.

Everybody there did that in those days (1981-83), because with taped
layouts, board revs were very painful and good circuit simulators
weren't available for circuits that complicated.

(The boards worked great, eventually. First two PLLs I ever built in my
life.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) Spacetel, from AEL Microtel. I did the pilot tone generator (PTG)
and the master timing & frequency unit (TFU). A couple of other guys
did the pilot tone receiver (PTR).

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <8k4jlb19v778h4u5b...@4ax.com>,
jjla...@highlandtechnology.com says...

>
>
> >The electronic components shrink at the same speed as the eyes get worse
> >with age.
>
> I've always had mediocre vision. I got a Mantis on ebay and it's a
> miracle; 0805 parts look big to me now.
>
> A carbide dental burr and a Dremel can do pretty detailed stuff
> freehand. It takes a bit of practise to get good at it, but it's fun.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z384_1.JPG

As just a hobby I cannot justify the Mantis, but for about $ 190 new
Amscope SE400 makes a nice scope of 10 and 20 X that makes working with
the small parts very easy for me to see at 66 years old.

I have built a few simple things using the Dremel tool and burrs. Not
too bad once you get the hang of it.

[Tim Wescott]

I was doing contract work during my Master's thesis that was pretty
similar in looks, but operated at around 400kHz (USCG radiobeacons).

In 1992 or so I was sending circuit boards off to fabs by calling them up
on a modem and uploading files to a bulletin board -- I guess I was on
the leading edge of that.

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems, embedded software and circuit design
I'm looking for work! See my website if you're interested
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[krw]

On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:36:46 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>In article <8k4jlb19v778h4u5b...@4ax.com>,
>jjla...@highlandtechnology.com says...
>>
>>
>> >The electronic components shrink at the same speed as the eyes get worse
>> >with age.
>>
>> I've always had mediocre vision. I got a Mantis on ebay and it's a
>> miracle; 0805 parts look big to me now.
>>
>> A carbide dental burr and a Dremel can do pretty detailed stuff
>> freehand. It takes a bit of practise to get good at it, but it's fun.
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z384_1.JPG
>
>
>As just a hobby I cannot justify the Mantis, but for about $ 190 new
>Amscope SE400 makes a nice scope of 10 and 20 X that makes working with
>the small parts very easy for me to see at 66 years old.

I have a Mantis at work but these are really useful (and cheap), too:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aven-tools/26221/243-1197-ND/1992723

>
>I have built a few simple things using the Dremel tool and burrs. Not
>too bad once you get the hang of it.

I generally use an X-Acto knife.

[legg]

On Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:00:24 -0700, John Larkin

<jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>Actually, the whole concept is wrong. Products should be designed, not
>fiddled. We only breadboard to evaluate an underspecified part or a
>bit of a tricky circuit, and the breadboard is NOT the prototype of an
>entire product.
>
>Bob Pease's classic hairball is way over the top. It shouldn't be
>necessary to breadboard that much stuff. Besides, breadboarding a
>hundred parts wastes too much time; it's better to do the design right
>and lay out the final-product PC board. Of course, Pease hated
>computers so he couldn't simulate.

Pease was waiting for computers and simulations that didn't
consistently demonstrate a waste of man-hours and simple conceptual
error.

I'm not sure we're at that stage, but we're prepared to use it if the
man-hours invested can be banked and built onto, for re-use and
iteration, with increasing accuracy and reducing conceptual error.

It's basically a virtual hairball.

RL

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <4n2klbhef4anni5fa...@4ax.com>, k...@nowhere.com
says...

>
>
> I have a Mantis at work but these are really useful (and cheap), too:
>
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/aven-tools/26221/243-1197-ND/1992723
> >
>

I have tried magnifiers like that,but they do not have enough
magnification for the SMD for me. Also have to get the head too close
to the work to do much soldering or hot air work at the higher
magnifiction.

Then bit the bullet and bought the Amscope se400.

[krw]

This particular one comes with four lenses and is perfectly good for
working on SMTs down to 0402s, anyway. The highest magnification lens
has a pretty small field (and depth) of view, though. That's where
the Mantis shines. I'd probably get a headache if I used it for a
long time, too (PD is probably wrong).

I also have an OptiVisor. I leave it out for others to use. ;-)

>
>Then bit the bullet and bought the Amscope se400.

I don't know that model but in general I find that style impossible to
use. I guess I'm spoiled by the Mantis.

[Tom Del Rosso]

John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:22:52 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>

> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:37:39 -0700, John Larkin

>> <jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
>>> <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>

>>> I'm not allowed to. It's "for non-engineers."
>>
>> Fritzing seems to be all about building breadboards before committing
>> to a PCB. Since you don't do breadboards and go directly from the
>> design to the PCB, you probably don't need fritzing. Besides, I
>> don't think any of your designs will work on a "stripboard". My RF
>> stuff certainly won't.
>
> Most of the projects shown on the Fritzing web site seem to not get
> beyond the plastic protoboard stage.
>
> I breadboard on copperclad FR4, or lay out a multilayer board for
> complex stuff.
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z382_1.JPG
>
> You can do 100 ps/3GHz stuff this way, or maybe faster.

Is it single-sided so it doesn't form a cap with the other side?

[John Larkin]

I use gold-plated double-side copperclad, FR4, 0.062 thick. A 50 ohm
transmission line is about 100 mils wide, a little narrower if it's
coplanar waveguide.

You really need a ground plane on the bottom side to do fast stuff.

A small part, like an 0603, would have about the same tiny pad
capacitance whether the opposite side were copper or not.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

> On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>

> Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination.

They come in other colors, now. :)


http://www.ebay.com/itm/131201337781

[John Larkin]

That probably makes them leakier than the white ones!

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 21:03:53 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> On 06/08/2016 07:30 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>>> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>>
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>
>>>
>>> Anything with a white nylon 'breadboard' is an abomination.
>>
>>
>> They come in other colors, now. :)
>>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/131201337781
>
> That probably makes them leakier than the white ones!

They are sold for Ardunio projects,, so it wouldn't matter. Those
are small enough to stick on a prototype 'shield'. I have never used any
of those breadboards. The only type I've come close to using were a
small board with brass tacks that you soldered components to. Then I
bought chassis punches and some cheap aluminum chassis, instead. :)

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 04:44:31 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

When I was young and poor, I used to drive finishing nails into an old
piece of wood and solder parts (from old TV sets) to the nails. It
wasn't picosecond or picoampere stuff.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Maybe, but it did work. I started making aluminum chassis for
projects in metal shop, in the seventh grade. I just couldn't go
backwards to a breadboard, and I was working with RF that needed
shielding. So, I mowed lawns and worked part time in a TV shop to buy
tools while I was still in school. I still have some of those tools, 50
years later. :)

[Bob Masta]

I had an even cheaper, simpler, and cheesier method: Poke
holes in grey cardboard (from shirts, cereal boxes, etc).
Insert components on top surface, bend leads and daisy-chain
as needed to make connections. You could even draw out the
layout ahead of time on the cardboard.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v9.20
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
FREE 8-channel Signal Generator, DaqMusiq generator
Science with your sound card!

[Phil Hobbs]

30 years ago, when I was at Ginzton Lab, we had a couple of engineers
who would build circuits for folks. They used a very similar method
except with large paper stickers glued to thin balsa wood, and scribbled
the layout on top in pen. You could just stick DIPs straight through
it. They used copper tape a lot for ground integrity.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

[Ron M.]

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 6:31:05 PM UTC-5, Jim Thompson wrote:
> Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

> --
> | James E.Thompson | mens |
> | Analog Innovations | et |
> | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
> | San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
> | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
> | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
>
> I'm looking for work... see my website.

I use the solderless proto boards all the time for simple circuit development contrary to what most here would recommend. However I don't mess with RF anymore. Those days are past never to return. Most permanent projects (control related) get transferred to soldered version and used. No problems thus far. Would always recommend using appropriate materials for anything RF or any other purpose requiring it.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2016-07-17, Bob Masta <N0S...@daqarta.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 07:41:30 -0700, John Larkin
><jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
>
>
> I had an even cheaper, simpler, and cheesier method: Poke
> holes in grey cardboard (from shirts, cereal boxes, etc).
> Insert components on top surface, bend leads and daisy-chain
> as needed to make connections. You could even draw out the
> layout ahead of time on the cardboard.

I did one with parts soldered to staples in grey card this
was using recovered through-hole parts so the leads were
too short to daisy-chain them, the solder and the staples
were new, the rest was all recovered. it wasn't anything
particlarly ambitious, just an LED blinker.

--
This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software

[John Fields]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson

<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>
> ...Jim Thompson

I prefer this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl470ac0s8chcf3/current%20source.jpg?dl=0

John Fields

[Jim Thompson]

I prefer this...

<http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/BreadBoard.jpg>

One of my clients had a customer that was trying to breadboard an HV
OpAmp circuit with "fritzing", so he was "referred" to me for
assistance. I had no idea what "fritzing" was... but the customer
never showed, so I was an easy solution ;-)

[John Fields]

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 07:12:51 -0700, Jim Thompson

<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 02:23:06 -0500, John Fields
><jfi...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 08 Jun 2016 16:30:59 -0700, Jim Thompson
>><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Anyone using "Fritzing" ??
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>>I prefer this:
>>
>>https://www.dropbox.com/s/nl470ac0s8chcf3/current%20source.jpg?dl=0
>>
>>John Fields
>
>I prefer this...
>
><http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/BreadBoard.jpg>

---
If you want to get down and dirty with wire-wrap wire, I prefer this:

top side:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1p9yn5cxo3ksnp/memory%20decoder%20top.JPG?dl=0


bottom side:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ifk1zco1qeg0h/memory%20decoder%20bottom.JPG?dl=0

John Fields