Using A Circuit Breaker As A Manual Switch

[Bret Cahill]

How many times can you flip a 30 Amp CB on and off before it wears
out? Say you as gentle as possible with the switch.


Bret Cahill

[Tom Biasi]

Different manufactures have different specs. What do you mean by
"gentle"? Will you whisper sweet things to it while you switch a 30 Amp
load on and off?

Tom

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:22:48 -0500, Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net>
wrote:

You slam the switch, then kiss it ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:22:48 -0500, Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On 2/16/2013 4:33 PM, Bret Cahill wrote:
> >> How many times can you flip a 30 Amp CB on and off before it wears
> >> out? Say you as gentle as possible with the switch.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bret Cahill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Different manufactures have different specs. What do you mean by
> >"gentle"? Will you whisper sweet things to it while you switch a 30 Amp
> >load on and off?
> >
> >Tom
>
> You slam the switch, then kiss it ;-)

Some are designed to be used as light switches in retail stores &
factories, but others had warnings not to use them as a switch.

[Jim Thompson]

I guess I wasn't clear... You BANG the switch, then kiss it >:-}

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:48:02 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>

I believe it's called an "switch" or 'S' rating. AFAIK, no
residential breakers have a switch rating.

[Tim Wescott]

There is no "gentle" for a normal circuit breaker: the toggle action is
so strong that the contacts are going to thump hard no matter what.

What Mr. Terrell said about switch-rated breakers: there was a breaker
box at my dad's shop that had the circuit breakers turned on and off
every working day for the ten years that I worked there, and we never had
a problem (and I would know -- it would have been my job to swap the
breaker out).

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[Michael A. Terrell]

I've never seen any that would fit a residential panel.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> I guess I wasn't clear... You BANG the switch, then kiss it >:-}

No thanks. The last one like that was on fire. My skin smelled like
burnt Bakelite for weeks. That stench wouldn't wash out, no matter what
I used.

[Bret Cahill]

> > How many times can you flip a 30 Amp CB on and off before it wears out?
> > Say you as gentle as possible with the switch.
>
> > Bret Cahill
>
> There is no "gentle" for a normal circuit breaker: the toggle action is
> so strong that the contacts are going to thump hard no matter what.
>
> What Mr. Terrell said about switch-rated breakers: there was a breaker
> box at my dad's shop that had the circuit breakers turned on and off
> every working day for the ten years that I worked there, and we never had
> a problem (and I would know -- it would have been my job to swap the
> breaker out).

How would you know w/o a test, i.e., a short with a known resistance?
Maybe nothing ever went wrong in your shop and the CBs still worked
great as manual switches but had, over the years, been altered as far
as the amperage that shut them off?

A shop would be the last place to offer as evidence as the "do
everything within specs" mentality prevails. Much more compelling
would be the dtisy residential situation test.

The thermal CBs that Square D introduced in 1935 took awhile to for
the bimetalic strip to heat up and pull away from a contact. They
were replaced starting in 1940 with faster acting magnetic CBs.

All the testing and innovation took place at the plant.

But you never hear of electricians advocating anyone going around
testing installed CBs for safety.

This is similar to the idiot light problem. Supposing the idiot light
has burned out?


Bret Cahill

[Mr Ron]

In article
<2b025623-26e2-44d2...@ou9g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>, Bret

Cahill <Bret_E...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But you never hear of electricians advocating anyone going around
> testing installed CBs for safety.

> This is similar to the idiot light problem. Supposing the idiot light
> has burned out?

Here in the UK AFAIK there doesn't seem to be any way to test them. I had a
brocken socket to be replaced and couldn't find the breaker. We tried the
method of shorting the socket to earth to trip it. The wires just fused &
sat there live.
We eventually found the breaker at the other side of the store & had to
replace with a derated one because the resistance of the circuit was too
high.

Ron

--

MrRo...@googlemail.com

[mowhoong]

Last week my office's 30 years air con switch (single throw 20A ) breakdown, it was Mk brand , I manage to brough one balance stock from a shop at thirty six dollar and it was make in UK during 2009. The seller said you can save cost by using MCB as a switch and it is very commom. BTW a china make unmark rating wall switch only cost one dollar fifty cents only, sure not to use for air con.

[Bret Cahill]

> > But you never hear of electricians advocating anyone going around
> > testing installed CBs for safety.
> > This is similar to the idiot light problem.  Supposing the idiot light
> > has burned out?
>
> Here in the UK AFAIK there doesn't seem to be any way to test them.

What would you need besides an amp meter and some resistors?

> I had a
> brocken socket to be replaced and couldn't find the breaker. We tried the
> method of shorting the socket to earth to trip it. The wires just fused &
> sat there live.

That should be proof that the CB was no good.


Bret Cahill

[Jim Thompson]

I have a gadget that plugs into an outlet that produces a signal that
can be sensed (non-contact) at the breaker. I think it's magnetic
since the probe must be oriented vertically at the breaker panel.

As for automotive idiot lights, now-a-days they're "smarter" than you
think. If you watch the dash while you start the car you can spot any
burnt out bulbs, because they're all lit up at "power-on".

One idiot light chip I designed for GM (~45 years ago) could even
detect ONE open diode in the alternator.

[Sjouke Burry]

Mr Ron <MrRo...@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
news:531f516b6...@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk:

Your wiring needs replacing, a short-circuit should blow even a breaker
of double that spec.
Or you can wait until the house burns down.....

[Sjouke Burry]

mowhoong <mowh...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:71df8404-38b4-4914...@googlegroups.com:

Perfect, those China breakers. They make the house burn down very nicely.

[Tim Wescott]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:45:27 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

>> > How many times can you flip a 30 Amp CB on and off before it wears
>> > out?
>> > Say you as gentle as possible with the switch.
>>
>> > Bret Cahill
>>
>> There is no "gentle" for a normal circuit breaker: the toggle action is
>> so strong that the contacts are going to thump hard no matter what.
>>
>> What Mr. Terrell said about switch-rated breakers: there was a breaker
>> box at my dad's shop that had the circuit breakers turned on and off
>> every working day for the ten years that I worked there, and we never
>> had a problem (and I would know -- it would have been my job to swap
>> the breaker out).
>
> How would you know w/o a test, i.e., a short with a known resistance?
> Maybe nothing ever went wrong in your shop and the CBs still worked
> great as manual switches but had, over the years, been altered as far as
> the amperage that shut them off?
>
> A shop would be the last place to offer as evidence as the "do
> everything within specs" mentality prevails. Much more compelling would
> be the dtisy residential situation test.

Thank you both for the insult to my father's abilities to wisely select
appropriate switches, and for once again discouraging me to answer your
questions.

Use switch-rated circuit breakers.

Stop being a troll.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

[Bret Cahill]

> >> But you never hear of electricians advocating anyone going around
> >> testing installed CBs for safety.
>
> >> This is similar to the idiot light problem.  Supposing the idiot
> >> light has burned out?
>
> > Here in the UK AFAIK there doesn't seem to be any way to test them. I
> > had a brocken socket to be replaced and couldn't find the breaker. We
> > tried the method of shorting the socket to earth to trip it. The wires
> > just fused & sat there live.
> >  We eventually found the breaker at the other side of the store & had
> >  to
> > replace with a derated one because the resistance of the circuit was
> > too high.
>
> > Ron
>
> Your wiring needs replacing, a short-circuit should blow even a breaker
> of double that spec.
> Or you can wait until the house burns down.....

An acquaintence owned a nice small old house with a fuse panel,
probably 60 amps for the main. His insurance company refused to
insure it. The house was supposedly torched by a meth head and he
lost everything.


Bret Cahill

[Mr Ron]

In article <XnsA16ABDF89C635sj...@213.75.12.10>, Sjouke

Burry <s@b> wrote:
> > We eventually found the breaker at the other side of the store & had
> > to replace with a derated one because the resistance of the circuit
> > was too high.
> >
> > Ron
> >

> Your wiring needs replacing, a short-circuit should blow even a breaker
> of double that spec.

If you read the above text, we had to derate the circuit from 32A to 16 Amp
as the resistance of the circuit was too great for anything above a 16A
breaker to trip in the required time. Wiring otherwise tested OK.

> Or you can wait until the house burns down.....

That's the point, CB was FAULTY & not testable.

Ron

--

MrRo...@googlemail.com

[Bret Cahill]

> > >  We eventually found the breaker at the other side of the store & had
> > >  to replace with a derated one because the resistance of the circuit
> > > was too high.
>
> > > Ron
>
> > Your wiring needs replacing, a short-circuit should blow even a breaker
> > of double that spec.
>
> If you read the above text, we had to derate the circuit from 32A to 16 Amp
> as the resistance of the circuit was too great for anything above a 16A
> breaker to trip in the required time. Wiring otherwise tested OK.> Or you can wait until the house burns down.....
>
> That's the point, CB was FAULTY & not testable.

It seems like it was "over fused" or "over breakered" but how do you
know it was faulty if there was no test to determine if it was faulty?

Apparently you had _some_ test to determine if it was faulty.


Bret Cahill

[Bret Cahill]

> >> > How many times can you flip a 30 Amp CB on and off before it wears
> >> > out?
> >> > Say you as gentle as possible with the switch.
>
> >> > Bret Cahill
>
> >> There is no "gentle" for a normal circuit breaker: the toggle action is
> >> so strong that the contacts are going to thump hard no matter what.
>
> >> What Mr. Terrell said about switch-rated breakers: there was a breaker
> >> box at my dad's shop that had the circuit breakers turned on and off
> >> every working day for the ten years that I worked there, and we never
> >> had a problem (and I would know -- it would have been my job to swap
> >> the breaker out).
>
> > How would you know w/o a test, i.e., a short with a known resistance?
> > Maybe nothing ever went wrong in your shop and the CBs still worked
> > great as manual switches but had, over the years, been altered as far as
> > the amperage that shut them off?
>
> > A shop would be the last place to offer as evidence as the "do
> > everything within specs" mentality prevails.  Much more compelling would
> > be the dtisy residential situation test.
>
> Thank you both for the insult to my father's abilities to wisely select
> appropriate switches, and for once again discouraging me to answer your
> questions.

No insult was intended nor should be taken.

Some people do everything on spec and some people occasionally do
things off spec.

And some will try to turn off spec into a religion. The more gnarly
the better. President Obama is not one of those people.

> Use switch-rated circuit breakers.

A retired electrician just told me there was no way to damage CBs by
flipping them like switches.


Bret Cahill

[Michael A. Terrell]

Tim Wescott wrote:
>
> Stop being a troll.


He can't. YOU can killfile him.

[Mr Ron]

In article
<437210fd-6d88-47ba...@m4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

Bret Cahill <Bret_E...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It seems like it was "over fused" or "over breakered" but how do you
> know it was faulty if there was no test to determine if it was faulty?

> Apparently you had _some_ test to determine if it was faulty.

They have a rated time/load curve. As the load increases the trip time is
reduced which is why you can load them to the max current rating. The cable
resistance is measured to to give an Earth Fault Current figure that would
trip the CB within 0.4 seconds. If the Live/Earth resistance is too high
for the breaker it won't trip fast enough.

Ron

--

MrRo...@googlemail.com

[Tim Wescott]

I let my killfile expire every once in a while to give people second
chances, particularly when they show some signs of competence.

He's earned his way back in.

[Cydrome Leader]

Bret Cahill <Bret_E...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> But you never hear of electricians advocating anyone going around
>> >> testing installed CBs for safety.
>>

>> >> This is similar to the idiot light problem. ?Supposing the idiot

>> >> light has burned out?
>>
>> > Here in the UK AFAIK there doesn't seem to be any way to test them. I
>> > had a brocken socket to be replaced and couldn't find the breaker. We
>> > tried the method of shorting the socket to earth to trip it. The wires
>> > just fused & sat there live.

>> > ?We eventually found the breaker at the other side of the store & had
>> > ?to

>> > replace with a derated one because the resistance of the circuit was
>> > too high.
>>
>> > Ron
>>
>> Your wiring needs replacing, a short-circuit should blow even a breaker
>> of double that spec.
>> Or you can wait until the house burns down.....
>
> An acquaintence owned a nice small old house with a fuse panel,
> probably 60 amps for the main. His insurance company refused to
> insure it. The house was supposedly torched by a meth head and he
> lost everything.

that sucks, but at least he didn't get ripped off by the insurance
company.