74HC4046 Model Development

[Jim Thompson]

I have posted a first-pass attempt at a 74HC4046 model at...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

-Jim Thompson

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

[Jim Thompson]

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

[bitrex]

On 10/20/2012 8:02 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
> I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
> process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>
> http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip
>
> for a corrected version.
>
> This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
> suitable only for LTspice.
>
> Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.
>
> Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
> messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}
>
> ...Jim Thompson
>

Thanks for taking on my suggestion from a while back, Jim. Looking
forward to trying it out!

[Jim Thompson]

My aim is to make the model as close to the silicon as possible.

For amusement, since it had been mentioned, I'm also doing the uA741
at the same time. It may be done tomorrow or Monday, since it's
rather easy.

The 4046 will take awhile to get all the pieces working together.

[Günter Haarmann]

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
> I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
> process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

...Jim Thompson
>


why is it encrypted??

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <no...@none.de>
wrote:

I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so
I don't want to divulge my techniques.

[Tim Wescott]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <no...@none.de>
> wrote:
>
>>Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>> I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>>> process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>
>>>
>>
>>why is it encrypted??
>
> I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
> don't want to divulge my techniques.
>
> ...Jim Thompson

So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
it?

Hmm.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:31:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
<t...@seemywebsite.please> wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <no...@none.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>>> I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>>>> process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>why is it encrypted??
>>
>> I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
>> don't want to divulge my techniques.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>
>So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
>it?
>
>Hmm.

If you will remember a prior post, I asked which devices had poor
Spice models. The 74HC4046 was mentioned multiple times. I am
supplying a model that I presume will behave more accurately. Since
the 74HC4046 is complex, I am asking, as I go, "Does this portion
fit?"

If no one really wants a good 74HC4046 model I'll go do something
else.

[John S]

Please do that.

Otherwise, if you want to help and want help yourself, then work with
these people.

[Nico Coesel]

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com>

wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:31:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
><t...@seemywebsite.please> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <no...@none.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>>>> I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>>>>> process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>why is it encrypted??
>>>
>>> I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
>>> don't want to divulge my techniques.
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>>So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
>>it?
>>
>>Hmm.
>
>If you will remember a prior post, I asked which devices had poor
>Spice models. The 74HC4046 was mentioned multiple times. I am
>supplying a model that I presume will behave more accurately. Since
>the 74HC4046 is complex, I am asking, as I go, "Does this portion
>fit?"
>
>If no one really wants a good 74HC4046 model I'll go do something
>else.

I'll think (more than) twice before I use the 4046 in a design again.
As Phil and you pointed out its pretty crappy.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>
>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip
>
>for a corrected version.
>
>This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
>suitable only for LTspice.
>
>Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.
>
>Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
>messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}
>
>

What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024
(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they
bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version
dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and
current mirrors are abominations of "engineering".

[legg]

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:27:24 -0700, Jim Thompson

<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
><To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>>process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>>
>>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip
>>
>>for a corrected version.
>>
>>This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
>>suitable only for LTspice.
>>
>>Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.
>>
>>Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
>>messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}
>>
>>
>What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024
>(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they
>bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version
>dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and
>current mirrors are abominations of "engineering".
>
> ...Jim Thompson

Are bungled abominations more difficult to model?

RL

[Jim Thompson]

Yes ;-)

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-Th...@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

>I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
>process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
>
>http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip
>
>for a corrected version.
>
>This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
>suitable only for LTspice.
>
>Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.
>
>Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
>messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}
>

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

[Günter Haarmann]

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

>
> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>
> ...Jim Thompson
>

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

[Phil Hobbs]

I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[George Herold]

On Oct 22, 10:04 am, Phil Hobbs

Hi Guys, OK I just finished test9ng the difference between the TI and
NXP versions of the VCO in the HC4046. The good news (for me) is
there's hardly any difference between the two. (This is with a VCO
'bias' resistor of 4.02k ohm.) (And four different caps, 2.7nF,
7.4nF, 22 nF, and 66nF +/-5%.)
The supply voltage was 6.36 Volts.

Here's the data for the TI version. First column is the VCO voltage
(in volts)
and the next four are the VCO frequencies in kHz. (Frequencies only
measured on a digital 'scope so don't believe all those decimal
places :^)

George H.



0.9082 127.5 46 13.91 5.056
1.0114 141.87 51.197 15.475 5.621
1.2868 180.11 65.027 19.667 7.147
1.444 202.49 73.105 22.108 8.0316
1.7823 251.05 90.717 27.467 9.978
2.0047 283.96 102.664 31.093 11.295
2.3282 333.68 120.78 36.616 13.299
2.6532 386.36 140.04 42.496 15.448
2.9967 445.53 161.81 49.174 17.887
3.2618 494.67 179.89 54.719 19.9
3.6809 579.032 211.26 64.377 23.43
3.945 637.65 233.1 71.126 25.896
4.1987 698.34 255.92 78.196 28.48
4.5543 791.99 291.198 89.157 32.49
4.8743 888.35 327.83 100.57 36.7
5.063 951.81 352.09 108.17 39.5
5.2847 1036.2 384.52 118.37 43.26
5.508 1143.4 425.94 131.41 48.07
5.714 1370.4 512.235 158.65 58.195

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:26:13 +0200, Günter Haarmann <no...@none.de>
wrote:

I GAVE you a model. I didn't charge for it. I encrypted it to
conceal my "tricks of the trade".

I know my model works under LTspice...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/74HC4046_VCO_SUB_SIM_LT.pdf

my submission was simply to make sure it also works after encryption.

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

[Mike Perkins]

On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>
> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>
> ...Jim Thompson
>

I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:24 +0100, Mike Perkins <sp...@spam.com>
wrote:

>On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
>> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
>> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
>I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
>manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
>statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
>whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

I'm just going from reports here, primarily Phil Hobbs' bad
experiences. ALL of the data sheets look wonderful ;-)

I can certainly think of ways to improve it, particularly the current
mirrors, though a complete architecture change could easily eliminate
lots of the non-linearity issues.

Whoever rolled the CMOS copy totally missed an important point, don't
dump the capacitor into a substrate diode.

[amdx]

On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

> On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, G�nter Haarmann wrote:
>> Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:
>>
>>>
>>> I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
>>> simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.
>>>
>>> ...Jim Thompson
>>>
>>
>> No. if you don�t want to give you won�t receive.
>>
>> You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.
>
> I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
> expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as

> the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of

> people being able to make a living.)
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that
don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
Mikek

[Phil Hobbs]

On 10/22/2012 03:08 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
> On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
>> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
>> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
>>
>> ...Jim Thompson
>>
>
> I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
> manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
> statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
> whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
>

If you read the datasheet carefully, that good performance only exists
over a certain range of parameters, and is only typical, not guaranteed.
See the list of datasheet references I posted in the other HC4046
thread a few days ago.

[Mike Perkins]

On 22/10/2012 21:38, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> On 10/22/2012 03:08 PM, Mike Perkins wrote:
> > On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:
> >>
> >> Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
> >> not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
> >> my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.
> >>
> >> ...Jim Thompson
> >>
> >
> > I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
> > manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
> > statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
> > whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.
> >
> If you read the datasheet carefully, that good performance only exists
> over a certain range of parameters, and is only typical, not guaranteed.
> See the list of datasheet references I posted in the other HC4046
> thread a few days ago.
>

Whilst I agree that each manufacturer gives a range for each parameter,
my experience is that each manufacturer produced devices which were
amazingly consistent, but wildly changing from one manufacturer to
another. I recall that each manufacturer specified their 74HC4046 very
differently to show theirs in the best light. One problem I had years
ago was that one version produced over 25MHz irrespective of R and C
with a control voltage at +5V, causing my counters to fail and the whole
PLL to fall over!

[Jasen Betts]

On 2012-10-22, amdx <am...@knology.net> wrote:

> Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that
> don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
> welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
> The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
> If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
> Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...

perhaps minimum wage isn't enough to live on?

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Nico Coesel]

amdx <am...@knology.net> wrote:

>On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Which means a lot of people are being employed AND make good money to
help the unemployed :-)