Soldering newbie

[M. Hamed]

I am not new to soldering. I have some soldering experience. I have built a radio kit with no soldering problems whatsoever. I have made little boards for things like transistor amplifiers for my crystal radio. I have little surface mount experience, but in a moment of extreme courage, my boss let me rework about 50 PCBs at once when he was on vacation. That involved soldering a little SMT cap using tiny little wire to a nearby IC pin. Most of the boards worked, but the job looked horribly ugly.

The reason I consider myself still a newbie, is that successes are not always repeatable, and failures are not always avoidable.

I have read numerous guides on the Internet but some things really don't click. I thought I could start this thread to ask questions that will probably be obvious to some but still not very clear to me.

The questions at hand for now are these:

1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron with fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the solder burns and discolors. Is that normal or am I doing something wrong? Do I have to be really fast before solder burns?

2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder. Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt. It also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the tip that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have a bad iron?

3) Can I use copper wool instead of a wet sponge? I have been using it recently with success. The problem is that I'm not sure if it's better than a sponge or not. I'm not even sure of the function of the copper or the sponge. I know it's for wiping the tip clean but it's hard for me to gauge how much better cleaning the tip actually provides.

4) When to use flux and when is it not important? I soldered the transistor radio kit completely without flux. But also the type of solder they provided with the kit seemed really good, I thought may be the solder has it all.


I know this has been answered a million times before but if someone is feeling bored may be they can share their experience. I know I probably can spend hours scouring internet forums and getting all sorts of conflicting information. I thought I may get some direct answers here! THANKS.

[Tim Wescott]

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 16:04:14 -0700, M. Hamed wrote:

> I am not new to soldering. I have some soldering experience. I have
> built a radio kit with no soldering problems whatsoever. I have made
> little boards for things like transistor amplifiers for my crystal
> radio. I have little surface mount experience, but in a moment of
> extreme courage, my boss let me rework about 50 PCBs at once when he was
> on vacation. That involved soldering a little SMT cap using tiny little
> wire to a nearby IC pin. Most of the boards worked, but the job looked
> horribly ugly.
>
> The reason I consider myself still a newbie, is that successes are not
> always repeatable, and failures are not always avoidable.
>
> I have read numerous guides on the Internet but some things really don't
> click. I thought I could start this thread to ask questions that will
> probably be obvious to some but still not very clear to me.
>
> The questions at hand for now are these:
>
> 1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron
> with fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the
> solder burns and discolors. Is that normal or am I doing something
> wrong? Do I have to be really fast before solder burns?

Discolors how? If it turns brown it's not the solder -- it's the flux.
If it turns gray, then the solder is oxidizing. The flux getting a bit
brown isn't that bad, but either one of these things happening is an
indication of your iron being too hot. You probably can't get away from
this easily without using a temperature-controlled iron.

If you have tip cleaner or a damp sponge that'll work well, too. The tip
needs to be tinned, but more importantly it needs to be clean.

(Don't use a temperature controlled iron unless you already own it, or
have long-term access. They're instantly addictive. It'll be like the
first time someone took the butter knife out of your hand and gave you a
real screwdriver -- you won't want to go back).

> 2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder.
> Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt. It
> also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in
> drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the tip
> that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have a bad
> iron?

It could be. But it could just be that the tip isn't clean, or isn't
tinned enough. Dirt, oxidized solder, and burnt flux don't transmit heat
well.

What you're really trying to do is to make sure that the whole joint is
hot enough to melt solder -- you can do a perfectly good solder joint by
dribbling solder on it, then reheating everything. But unless you're
really good, you can't tell the difference between a good joint done this
way and a poor joint done this way. Melting the solder onto the metal to
be soldered is a 100% reliable way of making sure it's at soldering
temperature.

> 3) Can I use copper wool instead of a wet sponge? I have been using it
> recently with success. The problem is that I'm not sure if it's better
> than a sponge or not. I'm not even sure of the function of the copper or
> the sponge. I know it's for wiping the tip clean but it's hard for me to
> gauge how much better cleaning the tip actually provides.

If the tip is clean, you've done a good job. I haven't used copper wool
much (mostly when someone shoved a soldering iron under my nose). All of
the people that I know who solder Really Well use a sponge.

They (and I) use a _damp_ sponge -- if it's dripping, it's way too wet:
it'll freeze the solder on the tip and stick the gunk on solid.

> 4) When to use flux and when is it not important? I soldered the
> transistor radio kit completely without flux. But also the type of
> solder they provided with the kit seemed really good, I thought may be
> the solder has it all.

Electronic solder comes with flux built in -- the solder is actually a
hollow tube filled with flux (or, sometimes, a tube with more than one
hole, all filled with flux).

If you've been using anything other than flux intended for electronics
then you've been using the Wrong Stuff. Flux for electronics (usually
called "rosin flux") is very mild, and the stuff you're expected to
solder is easy to solder to. Flux for mechanical assemblies ("acid
flux") is much more harsh -- which is what you want when you need to
solder to steel or other difficult materials, but it causes corrosion if
it's not cleaned all the way off of your job, and it's almost impossible
to clean electronics 100%.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:04:14 -0700 (PDT), "M. Hamed"
<mhdp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I am not new to soldering. I have some soldering experience. I have built a radio kit with no soldering problems whatsoever. I have made little boards for things like transistor amplifiers for my crystal radio. I have little surface mount experience, but in a moment of extreme courage, my boss let me rework about 50 PCBs at once when he was on vacation. That involved soldering a little SMT cap using tiny little wire to a nearby IC pin. Most of the boards worked, but the job looked horribly ugly.
>
>The reason I consider myself still a newbie, is that successes are not always repeatable, and failures are not always avoidable.
>
>I have read numerous guides on the Internet but some things really don't click. I thought I could start this thread to ask questions that will probably be obvious to some but still not very clear to me.
>
>The questions at hand for now are these:
>
>1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron with fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the solder burns and discolors. Is that normal or am I doing something wrong? Do I have to be really fast before solder burns?

Your iron is too hot. You need one of the temperature-controlled ones.
Metcal are the best.

>
>2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder. Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt. It also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the tip that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have a bad iron?

I poke the tip into the intersection of the board and the part, and
apply solder to the 3-way intersection. That wets everything and
transfers a bunch of heat fast.

>
>3) Can I use copper wool instead of a wet sponge? I have been using it recently with success. The problem is that I'm not sure if it's better than a sponge or not. I'm not even sure of the function of the copper or the sponge. I know it's for wiping the tip clean but it's hard for me to gauge how much better cleaning the tip actually provides.

It's to remove excess solder and burnt, crusty old flux. Sponge works.

>
>4) When to use flux and when is it not important? I soldered the transistor radio kit completely without flux. But also the type of solder they provided with the kit seemed really good, I thought may be the solder has it all.

Usually the flux in rosin-core electronic solder is all you need. I
rarely add additional liquid flux.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom laser drivers and controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME thermocouple, LVDT, synchro acquisition and simulation

[Phil Allison]

"M. Hamed"

1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron with
fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the solder
burns and discolors.

** The iron is too hot, get an adjustable or temp controlled one.

It is possible to use a light dimmer with a cheap iron to reduce the temp.

2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder.
Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt.

** When you touch the tip against a joint, immediately apply a little solder
to tip so the hot solder carries the heat around.

It also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in
drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the tip
that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have a bad iron?

3) Can I use copper wool instead of a wet sponge?

** Brass wool is best.

4) When to use flux and when is it not important? I soldered the transistor
radio kit completely without flux. But also the type of solder they provided
with the kit seemed really good, I thought may be the solder has it all.

** Use only flux cored, 60:40 tin lead solder for electronics.

Avoid the lead free kind.



... Phil

[Michael Black]

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, M. Hamed wrote:

> I am not new to soldering. I have some soldering experience. I have
> built a radio kit with no soldering problems whatsoever. I have made
> little boards for things like transistor amplifiers for my crystal
> radio. I have little surface mount experience, but in a moment of
> extreme courage, my boss let me rework about 50 PCBs at once when he was
> on vacation. That involved soldering a little SMT cap using tiny little
> wire to a nearby IC pin. Most of the boards worked, but the job looked
> horribly ugly.
>
> The reason I consider myself still a newbie, is that successes are not
> always repeatable, and failures are not always avoidable.
>
> I have read numerous guides on the Internet but some things really don't
> click. I thought I could start this thread to ask questions that will
> probably be obvious to some but still not very clear to me.
>
> The questions at hand for now are these:
>
> 1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron
> with fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the
> solder burns and discolors. Is that normal or am I doing something
> wrong? Do I have to be really fast before solder burns?
>

If the iron wasn't tinned right at the beginning, then the tip gains some
coating that causes the solder to just roll off.

I have a vague memory of this happening once, but I can't remember what I
did. I do know that when you have properly tinned the tip from the
beginning, some residue can build up, and you need to work at clearing
that up so the solder doesn't ball and roll off when heated, but spreads
out over the tip.

I also have a vague memory of burning solder on one iron, yet it seems
more related to an untinned tip. Because it's not like I've bought
endless packs of solder over the years, and the same solder works fine on
my soldering gun, which is much hotter than the irons I've had in forty
years. I think maybe I ended up with some bad solder, or solder rated at
a lower temperature. But it's been decades.

> 2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder.
> Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt. It
> also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in
> drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the tip
> that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have a bad
> iron?
>

The guides all say that, but most people do melt some solder on the tip as
it is held against the joint. The melted solder helps the heat to flow.
Once there is a bit of solder on the joint, the heat flows more easily.

> 3) Can I use copper wool instead of a wet sponge? I have been using it
> recently with success. The problem is that I'm not sure if it's better
> than a sponge or not. I'm not even sure of the function of the copper or
> the sponge. I know it's for wiping the tip clean but it's hard for me to
> gauge how much better cleaning the tip actually provides.
>

No. Except really cheap irons (the tips will last a very short time),
soldering iron tips have been plated for decades. If you use something
metallic to clean it, you may clear off the plating. The plating is a
great thing, it protects the tip. Without it, the tip will decay after a
relatively short time, while all the plated tips I've had last forever.

You don't want a lot of solder on a tip, at least when you are soldering,
yet keeping some solder on the tip protects it. So you pull your iron out
of the stand, briefly wipe it on the sponge (paper towels work too, I
don't even bother dampening them) before you solder, and then before you
put the iron back in the stand (at least if it will be sitting there for a
while), add a bit more solder.

So it's primarily to get the excess solder off, something you don't need
steel or copper wool for.

There are times when there's sort of a carbon buildup, I guess solder left
on the tip too long without being wiped off, and that takes some work to
clear off, but no actual filing or need for steel wool. But the build up
happens because the excess solder isn't regularly wiped off.

That said, again if you don't tin the tip properly at the start, there
will be later problems.

> 4) When to use flux and when is it not important? I soldered the
> transistor radio kit completely without flux. But also the type of
> solder they provided with the kit seemed really good, I thought may be
> the solder has it all.
>

The solder has flux built in. Melting a bit of solder on the tip of the
iron helps to spread the flux onto the joint you are trying to solder.
Same thing happens with old solder, the flux has long gone, you try really
hard to heat up the joint but no success. Melt a bit of solder against
the iron on the joint, and the new solder provides flux for the heat to
flow, so the old solder melts like it should.


Michael

[Bill Bowden]

Another trick is to coat both surfaces with solder before joining them
together and clean the surface of the leads. So, if you want to solder
two resistor leads together, use an exacto knife to scrape the
resistor leads clean and then apply a thin coat of solder to each
lead. Then put the resistor leads together and solder the joint. You
may not need any solder on the iron, just heat the leads and they will
melt together..

-BIll

[Phil Allison]

"Bill Bowden"

Another trick is to coat both surfaces with solder before joining them
together and clean the surface of the leads. So, if you want to solder
two resistor leads together, use an exacto knife to scrape the

resistor leads clean ...

** You should never have to do that.

Only very old and badly corroded leads require scraping.


.... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"M. Hamed"

I know this has been answered a million times before but if someone is
feeling bored may be they can share their experience. I know I probably can
spend hours scouring internet forums and getting all sorts of conflicting
information. I thought I may get some direct answers here!

** There are two common reasons why beginners have problems soldering:

1. They are using a shit awful soldering iron.

2. They are using lead free or flux free solder.

Hamed, like most, has not revealed what HE is using.



.... Phil

[Rich Webb]

On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:29:07 -0700, John Larkin
<jla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 2 Apr 2013 16:04:14 -0700 (PDT), "M. Hamed"
><mhdp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am not new to soldering. I have some soldering experience. I have built a radio kit with no soldering problems whatsoever. I have made little boards for things like transistor amplifiers for my crystal radio. I have little surface mount experience, but in a moment of extreme courage, my boss let me rework about 50 PCBs at once when he was on vacation. That involved soldering a little SMT cap using tiny little wire to a nearby IC pin. Most of the boards worked, but the job looked horribly ugly.
>>
>>The reason I consider myself still a newbie, is that successes are not always repeatable, and failures are not always avoidable.
>>
>>I have read numerous guides on the Internet but some things really don't click. I thought I could start this thread to ask questions that will probably be obvious to some but still not very clear to me.
>>
>>The questions at hand for now are these:
>>
>>1) Soldering guides always recommend you to tin the tip of your iron with fresh solder before starting on a joint. Every time I do this the solder burns and discolors. Is that normal or am I doing something wrong? Do I have to be really fast before solder burns?
>
>Your iron is too hot. You need one of the temperature-controlled ones.
>Metcal are the best.

Oy! You'll give the poor guy a heart attack.

Once the OP has started breathing again, he might want to look for
something like <http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/lf369D.html>
It's not a knock-off brand and is reasonably inexpensive (as these
things go). Some (of many more) alternates are over at
<http://www.circuitspecialists.com/soldering-stations> where they have
house-branded stations. Haven't tried these but I've purchased other
stuff from them in the past w/o complaints.

[notbob]

On 2013-04-03, Rich Webb <web...@example.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Apr 2013 17:29:07 -0700, John Larkin

>>Metcal are the best.

> Oy! You'll give the poor guy a heart attack.

No kidding. Metcals are insanely overpriced, even if they now have a
station in the mid $200 range. Jes get a Hakko FX888. You can get
'em fer < $85 and they have a great range of tips, even down into SMT
sizes.

nb

[Phil Hobbs]

If the leads are oxidized like that, switching to RA-flux solder will
improve your life. I have a bunch of old parts that I still use, and RA
is the bomb.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

[John Larkin]

Is there a downside to RA? Is it corrosive or conductive or anything? We use
RMA, not sure why. RMA does not seem to be conductive, at the 1e14 ohm level,
even at high humidity.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom timing and laser controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

[Phil Hobbs]

I think it's more acidic than RMA, so it may be more corrosive and/or
leakier, I'm not entirely sure. It really makes dead bugging easier though.

Speaking of prototyping, those Bellin Systems breakout boards have a
crappy solder mask--it doesn't go between pins on 0.025" or 0.5 mm pitch
parts. I may switch to Schmartboards, even though they're much more
expensive

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 11:32:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs

I love the Bellins... just bought a few more sheets. Each adapter winds up
costing around 30 cents, about 1/10 of some others. I hadn't noticed any
difficulty soldering, but I mostly use SOT23 and SO8 sorts of packages, not any
big fine-pitch parts. Once you get to stuff like uPs and ADCs and things, it
makes sense to lay out a real PC board.

We accumulate a list of cool circuits, adapters, crazy ideas, whatever, and when
we need to prototype a nontrivial circuit, we toss those extras around it and
lay out a board, usually 4-layer, and buy 10 of them. We lay things out so you
can shear or saw things apart. Here's the latest one:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG


We included the RJ45 to SMA breakout because we couldn't find one anywhere!

[M. Hamed]

Thanks for all the help.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:
> Discolors how? If it turns brown it's not the solder -- it's the flux.
> If it turns gray, then the solder is oxidizing. The flux getting a bit
> brown isn't that bad, but either one of these things happening is an
> indication of your iron being too hot. You probably can't get away from
> this easily without using a temperature-controlled iron.
>

Yes, it is brownish with some blue. You're right it's most likely the flux.
I do have a temperature controlled station. I looked last night at the temperature setting and it was about 750-800.

>
> If you have tip cleaner or a damp sponge that'll work well, too. The tip
> needs to be tinned, but more importantly it needs to be clean.

So do I need to clean every time before applying solder?

> They (and I) use a _damp_ sponge -- if it's dripping, it's way too wet:
> it'll freeze the solder on the tip and stick the gunk on solid.
>

Yes, I am realizing now my sponge had too much water. I tried the scotch bright cleaning sponges but I didn't know they had extra chemicals on them. I had a hard time finding one that doesn't have stuff added. The one that came with the soldering station is in a bad shape.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:29:07 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> Usually the flux in rosin-core electronic solder is all you need. I
> rarely add additional liquid flux.

I see the experts at work use flux all the time. My guess is that it's needed for 1-Lead free soldering, 2-Surface mount components with very small pitch?

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:01:39 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:
> ** When you touch the tip against a joint, immediately apply a little solder
> to tip so the hot solder carries the heat around.

This is more or less what I used to do and solder seemed to melt easier this way. However I read in many places where they tell you this is a big NO NO.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:37:39 PM UTC-7, Michael Black wrote:
> If the iron wasn't tinned right at the beginning, then the tip gains some
> coating that causes the solder to just roll off.

But even with tinning the burnt flux still coats the tip. I will retry reducing the temp as everyone is suggesting.

> The guides all say that, but most people do melt some solder on the tip as
> it is held against the joint. The melted solder helps the heat to flow.
> Once there is a bit of solder on the joint, the heat flows more easily.

Oh, Thank you! That was my experience too. I always felt guilty about it though :)

> You don't want a lot of solder on a tip, at least when you are soldering,
> yet keeping some solder on the tip protects it. So you pull your iron out
> of the stand, briefly wipe it on the sponge (paper towels work too, I
> don't even bother dampening them) before you solder, and then before you
> put the iron back in the stand (at least if it will be sitting there for a
> while), add a bit more solder.

So you're saying tinning should be done after soldering the joint, not before? Could you describe how you typically tin the tip? Just touching it to the solder wire seems to concentrate solder on one side of the tip. If I wipe it with the sponge, I don't know if it stays there or not.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 9:00:59 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:
> ** There are two common reasons why beginners have problems soldering:
> 1. They are using a shit awful soldering iron.
> 2. They are using lead free or flux free solder.
> Hamed, like most, has not revealed what HE is using.
>

Phil, I do not use lead free, except if I have to do some soldering at work. Mainly when the job is too easy it is embarrassing to send to the tech. I use leaded solder with my home projects (which haven't been so many).

On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:51:44 PM UTC-7, Rich Webb wrote:
> Once the OP has started breathing again, he might want to look for
> something like <http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/lf369D.html>
> It's not a knock-off brand and is reasonably inexpensive (as these
> things go). Some (of many more) alternates are over at
> <http://www.circuitspecialists.com/soldering-stations> where they have
> house-branded stations. Haven't tried these but I've purchased other
> stuff from them in the past w/o complaints.

Rich, I have this: http://www.circuitspecialists.com/csi-station1a.html

---------------------------
Sorry for the long post.

[Rich Webb]

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:38:54 -0700 (PDT), "M. Hamed"
<mhdp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks for all the help.
>
>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:
>> Discolors how? If it turns brown it's not the solder -- it's the flux.
>> If it turns gray, then the solder is oxidizing. The flux getting a bit
>> brown isn't that bad, but either one of these things happening is an
>> indication of your iron being too hot. You probably can't get away from
>> this easily without using a temperature-controlled iron.
>>
>
>Yes, it is brownish with some blue. You're right it's most likely the flux.
>I do have a temperature controlled station. I looked last night at the temperature setting and it was about 750-800.
>
>>
>> If you have tip cleaner or a damp sponge that'll work well, too. The tip
>> needs to be tinned, but more importantly it needs to be clean.
>
>So do I need to clean every time before applying solder?
>
>> They (and I) use a _damp_ sponge -- if it's dripping, it's way too wet:
>> it'll freeze the solder on the tip and stick the gunk on solid.
>>
>
>Yes, I am realizing now my sponge had too much water. I tried the scotch bright cleaning sponges but I didn't know they had extra chemicals on them. I had a hard time finding one that doesn't have stuff added. The one that came with the soldering station is in a bad shape.

I've become fond of using brass turnings to wipe the tip but another
possibility is to use pieces of an old cotton t-shirt. No water, just
wipe quickly. Yes, it will scorch some but it cleans the tip fairly
well and doesn't cool it down appreciably. (Note: cotton NOT polyester
or a blend.)

>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:29:07 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> Usually the flux in rosin-core electronic solder is all you need. I
>> rarely add additional liquid flux.
>
>I see the experts at work use flux all the time. My guess is that it's needed for 1-Lead free soldering, 2-Surface mount components with very small pitch?

Flux reacts with and removes the surface oxides at the joint, allowing
the solder to wet the metals and make a good connection. It's like
trying to glue two sheets of waxed paper together with a water-based
glue ('white glue' like Elmer's). No wetting, no sticking. With the
flux, it's as if the wax were removed and you're gluing two sheets of
plain paper.

When hand-soldering a fine pitch SMT part, pre-fluxing the pads on the
board and the leads on the device encourages the solder to flow into
the space between each lead and its corresponding pad, rather than
bunching up into solder bridges.

>
>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:01:39 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:
>> ** When you touch the tip against a joint, immediately apply a little solder
>> to tip so the hot solder carries the heat around.
>
>This is more or less what I used to do and solder seemed to melt easier this way. However I read in many places where they tell you this is a big NO NO.

It is A Bad Thing to load the tip with solder and then just wipe it on
the joint or to feed the solder only onto the iron's tip. That may
look okay (from a distance) but there's little or no wetting and so
the joint is very weak.

However, having just a little dab of solder on the tip can help in
heat transfer. The goal is to heat the lead and the pad together and
then feed the solder into the joint.

>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 7:37:39 PM UTC-7, Michael Black wrote:
>> If the iron wasn't tinned right at the beginning, then the tip gains some
>> coating that causes the solder to just roll off.
>
>But even with tinning the burnt flux still coats the tip. I will retry reducing the temp as everyone is suggesting.

700 F is a typical tip temperature to use with 60-40.

For the gunk that's already on there, Radio Shack (among others, but
you probably don't pass those others on the drive home) sells a little
tin of "tip cleaner." Wipe the tip clean after using the cleaner and
then "wash" it with a couple applications of your regular solder.

Some of the irons in the lab here aren't very well taken care of (the
desoldering irons seem to get it the worst) but this stuff goes a long
way to getting them back in shape.

>On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:51:44 PM UTC-7, Rich Webb wrote:
>> Once the OP has started breathing again, he might want to look for
>> something like <http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/lf369D.html>
>> It's not a knock-off brand and is reasonably inexpensive (as these
>> things go). Some (of many more) alternates are over at
>> <http://www.circuitspecialists.com/soldering-stations> where they have
>> house-branded stations. Haven't tried these but I've purchased other
>> stuff from them in the past w/o complaints.
>
>Rich, I have this: http://www.circuitspecialists.com/csi-station1a.html

Looks good. Do turn the temperature down a bit, though.

[Phil Allison]

"M. Hamed"

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> ** When you touch the tip against a joint, immediately apply a little
> solder
> to tip so the hot solder carries the heat around.

This is more or less what I used to do and solder seemed to melt easier this
way. However I read in many places where they tell you this is a big NO NO.

** I have just seen a site where the writer gives this and other WRONG
advice too.

It is a common mistake to apply solder to the tip and then carry it to the
joint - but that is NOT my advice.

The idea is to AID the tip in heating the joint FAST by *re-tinning* it as
you go.

So, after applying the tip, add a dab of solder - then as the solder flows
around add a more to the joint itself.

Good soldering is done very quickly, blink and you will miss it.

A slow motion, close up vid would be good.



... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Phil Allison"

** This one will do nicely....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuw2ir2JKM8


... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Phil Allison"

> ** This one will do nicely....
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuw2ir2JKM8

** You may have to copy and paste the link into YouTube.



.... Phil

[Michael A. Terrell]

Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
> If the leads are oxidized like that, switching to RA-flux solder will
> improve your life. I have a bunch of old parts that I still use, and RA
> is the bomb.

So is a small solder pot where you can clean & re-tin the leads at
the same time. I used one for years to clean the pins on used ICs, and
old stock components. It's easier to deflux loose components than ones
in an assembly.


--

Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week. :(

[Bill Bowden]

On Apr 4, 11:03 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
> > If the leads are oxidized like that, switching to RA-flux solder will
> > improve your life.  I have a bunch of old parts that I still use, and RA
> > is the bomb.
>

>    So is a small solder pot where you can clean & re-tin the leads at
> the same time.  I used one for years to clean the pins on used ICs, and
> old stock components.  It's easier to deflux loose components than ones
> in an assembly.
>

Remember the old wire-wrap boards? No solder, just simply twist the
wire around the square post and the sharp edges made a gas-dry joint.
I know a guy who sells glue and does an impressive demo at the swap
meets. He glues rubber, glass and metal in seconds and claims you can
twist two wires together and just use his glue without any solder. I'd
like to try some of it, but he sells the stuff for $20 an ounce. But
it is amazing.

-Bill

[Michael A. Terrell]

Bill Bowden wrote:
>
> > So is a small solder pot where you can clean & re-tin the leads at
> > the same time. I used one for years to clean the pins on used ICs, and
> > old stock components. It's easier to deflux loose components than ones
> > in an assembly.
> >
>
> Remember the old wire-wrap boards? No solder, just simply twist the
> wire around the square post and the sharp edges made a gas-dry joint.

Yes, and I remember looking for bad wraps, and having to solder wire
to hundreds of pins when the wire corroded. If you want real fun, try
replacing a bad IC socket where every pin has three levels of wrap, and
most are daisy chained. A repair that would take minutes on a PC board
can take days when you have to remove & replace over a hundred wires.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 03:54:35 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Bill Bowden wrote:
>>
>> > So is a small solder pot where you can clean & re-tin the leads at
>> > the same time. I used one for years to clean the pins on used ICs, and
>> > old stock components. It's easier to deflux loose components than ones
>> > in an assembly.
>> >
>>
>> Remember the old wire-wrap boards? No solder, just simply twist the
>> wire around the square post and the sharp edges made a gas-dry joint.
>
>
> Yes, and I remember looking for bad wraps, and having to solder wire
>to hundreds of pins when the wire corroded. If you want real fun, try
>replacing a bad IC socket where every pin has three levels of wrap, and
>most are daisy chained. A repair that would take minutes on a PC board
>can take days when you have to remove & replace over a hundred wires.

You clearly had incompetent people running the show. If properly
done, WireWrap is as (or more), reliable as soldered connections and
you don't daisy-chain the stuff. You should never have to pull more
than three wires to replace one. At one time mainframes were all
WireWrapped (millions of connections) and were *quite* reliable.
Three-high was a no-no, as well, though that was probably for other
reasons (impedance). The pins were shorter than some, designed for
two wraps only (but a third was easily possible).

[Michael Black]

I suspect that's some of the issue, the commercial stuff was the mainstay
of wire wrap. I've never heard of much trouble with commercial stuff,
which may mean it was outside the hobbyist realm, or it may mean it works
fine.

Certainly when it hit the hobbyists, about the time Byte arrived, it was
treated as a serious thing, so surely the example of commercial wire
wrappted equipment was there.

But once in the hobby world, it likely wasn't the same thing. Yes, you
could buy actual guns, but for many it was done manually, which I can see
would be a source of trouble. Also, those who hadn't had experience
likely had problems, just like the person beginning to solder doesn't yet
have the experience to know they have bad joints.

I suspect many didn't grasp the concept, and indeed we saw a lot of
intermediate work, wire wrap sockets and wire wrap wire, but a cursory
wrap around the socket pin and then solder, as if people didn't trust the
notion of wire wrapping. I admit that as someone who had already been
soldering, the notion of just twisting the wire around the socket pin
didnt' seem secure.

Michael

[John Larkin]

The software for programming a wire-wrap machine was non-trivial. I
did it once.

Read punched cards to get the net list. Each card has an IC or
connector name, pin number, and net name.

Sort all that by net and look for obvious errors.

Read another deck that maps pins to physical coordinates

Do a "traveling salesman" algorithm to minimize wire length in each
net

Sort by level so there are no cross-level wraps

Sort by position to mimimize head travel

Handle color coding, maybe

Output the G-codes and reports.

Wire wrap was awful, in many ways. I don't miss it a bit.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators

Custom laser drivers and controllers

Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links

[k...@attt.bizz]

Unlike most hobbyists, it has to be wrapped tightly. ;-) Seriously,
that's the major problem, getting enough tension on the wire as it's
being pulled around the post so the wire bites into the edges. The
other major problem I saw was stripping. Many would nick the wire.
Bad news for reliability. We had special strippers that looked like
long-nosed pliers with a nick in the jaw (not the blade). Some didn't
know that they were special tools and would use them as long-nose
pliers. One turn of a nut and they were shot. At $100 each, people
got a little protective of their tools.

>I suspect many didn't grasp the concept, and indeed we saw a lot of
>intermediate work, wire wrap sockets and wire wrap wire, but a cursory
>wrap around the socket pin and then solder, as if people didn't trust the
>notion of wire wrapping. I admit that as someone who had already been
>soldering, the notion of just twisting the wire around the socket pin
>didnt' seem secure.

I wouldn't have expected that it was as good as it was, either. It
does take some skill, then so does soldering.

[k...@attt.bizz]

I did that for manual wrap, though used a file (then spreadsheet) for
technician use. They then would put in every other wire in a net,
finally adding the ones in between. That way, if something changed
(or broke), one didn't have to rip the whole net out.

>Sort all that by net and look for obvious errors.

I used to do that with PCB netlists. Tools have gotten much better,
though. It's amazing the errors that can be seen by the eye without
looking at the actual data.

>Read another deck that maps pins to physical coordinates
>
>Do a "traveling salesman" algorithm to minimize wire length in each
>net

Unless order made a difference.

>Sort by level so there are no cross-level wraps

Yep. Our techs did that by doing every other wire in a net, then
coming back and fill in the 2nd levels.

>Sort by position to mimimize head travel
>
>Handle color coding, maybe
>
>Output the G-codes and reports.
>
>Wire wrap was awful, in many ways. I don't miss it a bit.

I prefer it to dead bug, though it's expensive. I used to have some
pretty complicated WW boards (one with >6000 wires - memory busses
nave lots of wires ;), before PCBs got cheap.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2013-04-05, Bill Bowden <bpe...@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> wrote:
> I know a guy who sells glue and does an impressive demo at the swap
> meets. He glues rubber, glass and metal in seconds and claims you can
> twist two wires together and just use his glue without any solder. I'd
> like to try some of it, but he sells the stuff for $20 an ounce. But
> it is amazing.

take some wires, take home a sample glued joint?

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Phil Hobbs]

I remember a Grinnell video processor system that they donated to our
lab when I was a grad student, circa 1985. It allowed slow asynchronous
scan data to be turned into video in real time, without the nasty bloom
problems of the Lithicon tube scan converters that some of my colleagues
had been using.(*)

I'd never seen a wire-wrapped backplane before--it just about gave me
nightmares, but apparently it worked fine. The thing was a whole 6 foot
rack, full. Amazing.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) (My scan data was all digital, but then I'd taken a couple of years
off to work as an EE before grad school, besides having an electronics
hobby from an early age.)

[Bill Bowden]

On Apr 4, 11:54 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Bill Bowden wrote:
>
> > >    So is a small solder pot where you can clean & re-tin the leads at
> > > the same time.  I used one for years to clean the pins on used ICs, and
> > > old stock components.  It's easier to deflux loose components than ones
> > > in an assembly.
>

> > Remember the old wire-wrap boards? No solder, just simply twist the
> > wire around the square post and the sharp edges made a gas-dry joint.
>

>    Yes, and I remember looking for bad wraps, and having to solder wire
> to hundreds of pins when the wire corroded.  If you want real fun, try
> replacing a bad IC socket where every pin has three levels of wrap, and
> most are daisy chained.  A repair that would take minutes on a PC board
> can take days when you have to remove & replace over a hundred wires.
>

Yes, it could be a problem. I remember a case where we had an
inexperienced person doing a R&D wire-wrap job with little
supervision. Turned out there was a short from +5 to ground, so we
decided to apply a small current from a PS to see if the offending
wire would get hot and reveal itself. We cranked up the PS to about 20
amps and nothing got hot, so we had to throw away the whole board
since there were too many shorts across the PS.

-Bill

[Tom Del Rosso]

M. Hamed wrote:
>
> 2) Soldering guides tell you to always heat the joint not the solder.
> Whenever I do this, it seems it takes forever for solder to melt. It
> also seems that the pointy part of the tip (as they always show in
> drawings) isn't really hot enough I have to find a sweet spot on the
> tip that is hot enough and then touch it to the wire. Do I just have
> a bad iron?

You need a chisel tip instead of that 'pointy' tip.

The point of a conical tip never makes enough contact.


--

Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

[Phil Allison]

"Tom Del Rosso"

>
> You need a chisel tip instead of that 'pointy' tip.
>
> The point of a conical tip never makes enough contact.

This vid ( I posted earlier) shows how to use a pointy tip to solder
regular components like 1 amp diodes to a PCB with plated through holes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuw2ir2JKM8

The side of the tip is used and solder is constantly re-applied to the tip.



.... Phil

[Michael A. Terrell]

Not all wire wrap was done with silver plated Kynar. Some was tin
plated, and the airflow through the equipment pulled dirty air over the
backplane.

Some Chyron video equipment was made with cheap WW sockets. The
wiring was so tight that you couldn't do practical repairs. The only
thing I could do was press good machine pin sockets into the cheaper
sockets to eliminate intermittent. The sockets were packed so tight
that they touched any adjacent socket to cram a lot of chips into a
small space. Three hinged boards, in a small space. I'll bet the
factory wouldn't even try to repair it without cutting wire and
soldering.

[Michael A. Terrell]

Yes, you can do it that way, or use the proper width chisel tip to
apply even heat and solder the joint properly by applying the solder to
the joint instead of the tip. We didn't have anything other than chisel
tips in the 100+ temperature controlled Ungar 'Loner' irons at
Microdyne. Even the .015" tips had a flat face so you could heat the IC
leg & pad instead of the solder.

[stra...@yahoo.com]

I call that work barely adequate and certainly wouldn't consider paying for it. Several of the joints don't have solder through the hole. That cutter belong in the recycling bin. I haven't done work that shoddy since I was in grade school.

G²

[Phil Allison]

<stra...@yahoo.com

> Phil Allison wrote:
> "Tom Del Rosso"
>
> > You need a chisel tip instead of that 'pointy' tip.
> > The point of a conical tip never makes enough contact.
>
>
> This vid ( I posted earlier) shows how to use a pointy tip to solder
>
> regular components like 1 amp diodes to a PCB with plated through holes.
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuw2ir2JKM8
>
> The side of the tip is used and solder is constantly re-applied to the
> tip.
>

> I call that work barely adequate and certainly wouldn't consider paying
> for it.

** Luckily no one gives a flying fuck what jerk offs like you think.

>Several of the joints don't have solder through the hole.

** Not very important.

The basic technique is what needed to be shown and that is OK.


BTW arsehole,

FIX your fucking news reader so it STOPS doubling the line spacing in quoted
material.



.... Phil

[stra...@yahoo.com]

If the result is poor the technique is poor.

G²

[Phil Allison]

<stra...@yahoo.com>

If the result is poor

** But it is not - fuck head

[notbob]

On 2013-04-06, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Yes, you can do it that way, or use the proper width chisel tip to
> apply even heat and solder the joint properly by applying the solder to
> the joint instead of the tip. We didn't have anything other than chisel
> tips in the 100+ temperature controlled Ungar 'Loner' irons at
> Microdyne. Even the .015" tips had a flat face so you could heat the IC
> leg & pad instead of the solder.

Yep. At the very least, one should get an iron/station that has the
option of changing tips. I can still buy diff temp and tip profiles
for my ancient non heat-adj Weller.

nb

[Michael Black]

I can no longer remember who made what.

My first soldering irons for some reason lasted a very shrot time. I
wasn't abusing them, but they were cheap and overheated and soon died. I
was too inexperienced to figure out why. The first was new, a birthday
present, the second was used, someone gave it to me with a new cord
attached.

Somewhere about then I was given a Weller soldering gun, useful because
tubes were still being used. That gun has lasted me all these decades, it
was used when I got it, a few scrapes and burn points in the cord. The
cord has a lot of electrical tape on it now, and some years back I put
some epoxy on some places where there were cracks (though no structural
breaks). Finally a couple of years ago it fell off the bench, and the
lower part of the handle actually broke off. I drilled some small holes,
used some wire to "sew" it back together, then covered with epoxy, still
working fine though rather ugly looking.

So I decided to buy a new one, but they cost a lot now. I wait, and find
one at a garage sale for ten dollars, in a case with some accessories,
though a somewhat later model. Then last year I found one identical to
mine, but in much better shape, in the original box, for five dollars.

But after those first two soldering irons died prematurely, I went with
the system Radio Shack had at the time, a handle, a heating element and a
tip. I think Ungar made them, but they were branded Radio Shack. That
was great, except I kept dropping the iron, and the tip would break off.
The ones I liked (there was a variety) threaded into the heat element, and
thus without the means of drilling out the rest of the tip, the heat
element was junk too. I slowly got better, dropping the iron less. That
lasted about 20 years, actually the handle is still fine. I replaced it
with a newer model, direct from Ungar, this time having a third prong in
the AC cord.

That ones still working. I actually made up a stand for it, complete with
a light dimmer to vary the heat, even though I've never found that feature
all that useful.

Then a few years ago, I found a Weller soldering station, the light blue
kind with the magnetic tip that kept things the same temperature. Only
five dollars (it was the same place I'd found a drill press vice a couple
of years before), too cheap to turn down. My first temperature controlled
soldering iron in all these decades. Oddly, the switch had gone bad, the
previous owner adding some wire to bypass it. I thought of various
schemes to replace the switch, it's square so I didn't think I had a
direct replacement, then thought of the AC power strips I'd found a box of
lying on the sidewalk one night. The switch form one was a fit, so I did
the transplant, and the Weller soldering station is like new.

It's kind of neat, but I like the Ungar, I'm used to it, I'm used to the
feel in my hand, so though I have both set up right next to each other,
it's the Ungar I turn on much of the time.

Michael

[Phil Allison]

"Fred Abse"

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>>Several of the joints don't have solder through the hole.
>>
>>
>> ** Not very important.
>

> Sorry, Phil, I have to disagree.

** Did you view the vid at all ?

Or just playing word games again.


> Every quality control manual I know of, NASA, MIL, etc, in the case of
> plated through holes, insist on complete
> hole filling, plus a fillet each side.

** So fucking what ?

Huge numbers of commercial PCBs have empty vias.


> Many PCB designs (mine included) don't have enough pad area to be
> satisfactory without solder penetration.


** Did you view the vid at all ?

Snipping it out makes me think you did not bother.

The soldering and PCB in that vid are the topic here - nothing else.



... Phil

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 08:58:06 -0700, Fred Abse
<excret...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:26:58 -0400, krw wrote:
>
>> We had special strippers that looked like long-nosed pliers
>> with a nick in the jaw (not the blade).
>

>I still have a pair.

I have a few but I doubt that any of them are still aligned.

[k...@attt.bizz]

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 01:19:15 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

Ours was all copper with Teflon insulation. The problem with Teflon
was cuts if you stretched the wire too tight when going around a pin
(bypassing it, not wrapping to it).

> Some Chyron video equipment was made with cheap WW sockets. The
>wiring was so tight that you couldn't do practical repairs. The only
>thing I could do was press good machine pin sockets into the cheaper
>sockets to eliminate intermittent. The sockets were packed so tight
>that they touched any adjacent socket to cram a lot of chips into a
>small space. Three hinged boards, in a small space. I'll bet the
>factory wouldn't even try to repair it without cutting wire and
>soldering.

That's not incompetent? I always use machined pins (Augat sockets and
boards).

[k...@attt.bizz]

Our techs insist on using pointy tips in the Metcals at work. The
first thing I do when I sit down at their stations is to change the
tips to chisel tips (unless I'm working on really fine pitch stuff).
Fortunately, the Metcals only take five seconds, or so, to come up to
temperature.

[stra...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, April 6, 2013 3:42:14 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:
<snip>

> Huge numbers of commercial PCBs have empty vias.

You don't know about tented vias either? They're _supposed_ to be empty.

> The soldering and PCB in that vid are the topic here - nothing else.
> ... Phil

And the soldering is sub-standard as are the tools.

G²

[Phil Allison]

"Fred Abse"
Phil Allison wrote:
>
>> ** Did you view the vid at all ?
>

> Irrelevant.

** Fraid it was very relevant.


> I was commenting on a specific, unambiguous statement

** But SNIPPED out of context and hence misinterpreted by you.

Go fuck yourself - arsehole.

[Phil Allison]

<stra...@yahoo.com>

Phil Allison wrote:
<snip>

** Bad boy !!

Do NOT snip the context !!

> Huge numbers of commercial PCBs have empty vias.

You don't know about tented vias either?

** Then go changing it like that - fuckhead.

> The soldering and PCB in that vid are the topic here - nothing else.

And the soldering is sub-standard as are the tools.

** No one gives a fuck about YOUR absurd, pedantic opinions .

Go fuck yourself - shit head.

[Jamie]

Glad you can drop in now and then Phil..

Jamie

[Steve Gonedes]

"M. Hamed" <mhdp...@gmail.com> writes:


< So do I need to clean every time before applying solder?


I use a yellow sponge. When it is dry I cut four parallel slices in it
with a extacto-razor knife. I saw this on utube. It seems to work well.

< I see the experts at work use flux all the time. My guess is that it's needed for 1-Lead free soldering, 2-Surface mount components with very small pitch?

I use 220 grit sand paper on all leads and then a quick wash of acetone
with cotton rubs; then apply flux with a toothpick. Not exactly an
expert at soldering, but the sand paper seems to get you to the
phosphorous layer :) .


< So you're saying tinning should be done after soldering the joint, not
< before? Could you describe how you typically tin the tip? Just touching it
< to the solder wire seems to concentrate solder on one side of the tip. If I
< wipe it with the sponge, I don't know if it stays there or not.


I like to keep the tip shinny. I use a spool of solder just for tinning
the iron .062 Oz (leaded). I used to have red-phosphorous sand paper. I
used to like playing around with that, but it is now illegal to use (?).
And please don't forget that acetone is flammable - maybe cleaning the
joints with propel- or methly- alcohol prior to soldering will help? Oil
from fingers and stuff can make a bad joint.


< On Tuesday, April 2, 2013 9:00:59 PM UTC-7, Phil Allison wrote:
>> ** There are two common reasons why beginners have problems soldering:
>> 1. They are using a shit awful soldering iron.

yeah, a shitty solder iron really ruins a good day. well said - from an
amateur looking at a bench. I like my 33 watt welder.

Have you tried using iso-butane or mapp gas? I absolutely love butane -
but the habbit is expensive. Maybe a I need a battery iron in my future.