Best Laser Printer PCB Etch Kit
Someone
there and where to buy them. I only have seen them in All Electronics'
Catalog and they only give you 6 transfer sheets for around $25 I
think. All help is appreciated. Please respond to the newsgroup as
this is not my real email due to spammers.
Thanks,
Mike S.
lawrence
--
I don't know what's in the kit, but if you are using a laser printer,
all you need is some clay coated paper. I wrote an article on how I do
it. Click the link below and go to the archives.
Good luck,
-L
http://members.nccw.net/webe - WebElectric Magazine
JP2
i have not tried it yet but it's seems a good product.
The price is better than the product you saw.
Go to www.technics.com all the details are there.
And you can see how it work since a Greek guy made a web site about it.
"I am not trying to change your way of work but after many years of
making prototypes with the photoresist method I finally found the toner
transfer method(5 years ago)and since then,I always managing to have
those "special" sheets.See some of my results with them at:"
www.geocities.com/pdmtr
Someone <spam...@ilovespam.com> a écrit dans le message :
38A1CF37...@ilovespam.com...
Science Hobbyist
Someone <spam...@ilovespam.com> wrote:
> I was wondering the best and cheapest Laser Printer PCB Etch kit out
> there and where to buy them. I only have seen them in All
Electronics'
> Catalog and they only give you 6 transfer sheets for around $25 I
> think. All help is appreciated. Please respond to the newsgroup as
> this is not my real email due to spammers.
I tried the white kind of toner transfer paper (decal, soak in
water) and the blue type (dry peel-off). The "press-n-peel blue"
is far better. I can put traces between DIP IC pins and have
them actually work! The decal-type paper tends to tear the
small traces because the whole paper swells up in size when wet.
The blue paper does not. Even better, the blue paper is
translucent, and you can see any light spots where the heat
didn't melt the toner (the tip of the iron can touch it up
before peeling it.)
Don Lancaster had some hints about these in old columns. It
really does help things if you pre-heat the bare board in an
oven before ironing on the pattern. Also, for best results you
need to get the board EXTREMELY clean. Sanding with steel wool,
briefly etching the board in ammonium etchant, then washing
and pre-heating it gives a near-0% failure rate.
I ordered mine from Techniks Inc, $30 for 20 sheets,
http://www.teckniks.com
--
((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William Beaty bbe...@microscan.com
Software Engineer http://www.microscan.com
Microscan Inc., Renton, WA 425-226-5700 x1135
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jan Panteltje
(inktjet) may be worth it over time.
I can get 3 traces between a DIL, the overhear projector transparants I use cost
9.50 $ for 15 in any big shop,.
I have the color 460, it cost only 150$, 720 dpi.
The 640 costs 40 $ more but is 1440 dpi!
Regards
Jan
Joseph A. Legris
the toner is basically ground up plastic that fuses together into waterproof
lines. Ink jet ink won't transfer well and is not waterproof.
J.Legris
Jan Panteltje
against the PCB copper, use a vacuum or some pressure (piece of foam).
This works perfectly over here.
Jan
Joseph A. Legris
resist on the pcb, then you are right, ink jet works fine.
The others were discussing the toner transfer technique where the toner image is
transferred directly to the pcb using heat. No photography is involved.
J.Legris
change the x to s to reply
reality
trace on a transparency. The transparency would transfer the circuit onto
the photo etch PC Board. However I have had difficulty finding software
that will convert an image into a negative. Does such software exist? Why
does this method not work?
Someone wrote:
> I was wondering the best and cheapest Laser Printer PCB Etch kit out
> there and where to buy them. I only have seen them in All Electronics'
> Catalog and they only give you 6 transfer sheets for around $25 I
> think. All help is appreciated. Please respond to the newsgroup as
> this is not my real email due to spammers.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike S.
Lord Garth
reality <"info"@NOSPAM.com (but it still keeps coming)> wrote in message
news:38a4b...@news.nni.com...
Dave
Jan Panteltje
Never tried that transfer method..
My apologies for the confusion.
Jan
Joseph A. Legris
spaces should be white. Any CAD program output or published PCB art looks like
this.
J.Legris
change the x to s to reply
NoS...@my.box
>
> The Laser Printer PCB etch kit would simply print a negative of the PCB
> trace on a transparency. The transparency would transfer the circuit onto
> the photo etch PC Board. However I have had difficulty finding software
> that will convert an image into a negative. Does such software exist? Why
> does this method not work?
I tried the same thing with transparencies and my IBM 4029 laser
printer. Couldn't get the blacks opaque enough. Putting a printed page
behind a large dark area and holding the sandiwch to a light, I could
read the text. Figured it wouldn't stop UV so I went no further.
Russ LeMaster
Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>
> >> There is nothing to transfer, just have the transparant close (inkt side)
> >> against the PCB copper, use a vacuum or some pressure (piece of foam).
> >> This works perfectly over here.
> >> Jan
> >
Could you please elaborate on this. I am currently considering what technique I wish to use and I'm not familiar with
the process you mention above.
Thanks,
Russ
Jan Panteltje
Since you might want to see that (the things one does in ones free time on Usenet ;-)
download:
http://www.panteltje.demon.nl/tests/3traces.ps
(The postscrips example (one DIL with 3 traces)
http://www.panteltje.demon.nl/tests/3traces.jpg
(The 15 x microscope on the webcam...)
Note this looks bad, but that is only cause of lack of focus.
I could not get much better focus with the web cam in front of the microscope.)
So in fact the traces are about 30 % thinner then they look.
Note the effect of the piece of dust.
There are minute speckles on the transparent between the tracks.
This is the limit set by the Epsom stylus color, in combination with this
cheap overhead transparent (it is not a smooth surface, so the ink will hold
I guess).
Note he 100% blackout (I had a 60 W light behind it, where normally the
microscope mirror would be.
I used a piece of white paper to make the light diffuse.
In all sincerity, I do not normally use 3 traces between a pad, and if I do,
I cut the pad and use more space that way.
Doing 3 traces this way on a larger board would require to make several boards
to get one good one.
The sizes in this example were:
line width: 5 mil
via hole 15 mil
via size 40 mil
pcb program pcb (on Linux)
printer Epson stylus color 460
paper overhead transparencies A4 with back sheet.
gostscript interpreter.
script:
/usr/bin/gs -sDEVICE=stcolor -r720x720 -dBitsPerPixel=24 -dNOPAUSE -sPAPERSIZE=a4 -sOutputFile="/tmp/qp1" $1
Does this answer your question?
Jan
Jan Panteltje
See my other post further on this subject for an example.
Jan
Lord Garth
This film has no shades of gray and will result in an opaque positive.
It is a little more cost and an extra step but it makes a good print.
<NoS...@my.box> wrote in message news:38A500...@my.box...
Jason Kuetemann
image setter. A one time production costs me about $20, but the sheets
are perfect and durable. I can often get several images on a sheet (I
pay per sheet, not per image) so I usually have extras. I've used laser
printers and inkjet printers to produce art and it's never as good as
having a film produced professionally.
--
Jason Kuetemann
jason....@sympatico.ca
Dave
I gave up on the transparency method when I couldn't get completely
opaque blacks using an HP 970 and transparencies. Also the ink
bleeding over and smearing was horrendous. Since then I've used
vellum on an HP IIIP laserjet with very good results, but for my small
"production" runs, I don't run more than 1 line between pads when
making 6x10" panels. Maintaining good exposure over the entire board
with linewidths that small is tough.
Dave
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:42:04 GMT, j...@panteltje.demon.nl (Jan
Panteltje) wrote:
>>3 traces between the ic pads of a DIP?
>Absolutely,
SRalston
little message to let people know about a service I offer. I have set-up a
medium sized PCB production run intended to produce prototypes for the
general hobbyist. Prices go by board size and quantity, but to give you an
example, a one-off board about 10cm x 10cm, cut to size, drilled and tinned
works out to about $20. Please correct me if I am wrong, but this seems a
far better alternative than the hassle and cost it seems a lot of you go
through?
Email me if you are interested...
Jason Kuetemann <jason....@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:38A588E1...@sympatico.ca...
Dave
On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:48:50 +1100, "SRalston" <SRal...@bigpond.com>
wrote:
Lord Garth
Price list for each of the listed add-ons if possible.
Lastly, how do you receive the layout?
reality
yellow, etc. There is a vast difference in ink jet cartridges. Its just that most people never print with stiff
requirement - they accept very fuzzy images.
Not only is the cartridge important, but so is the paper. The only paper we could find that works was from K&E.
Other paper simply diffuses the ink jet ink. That is often how a salesman sells his inferior cartridge - he uses
different paper.
The only cartridge that could paint the ocean blue without lines and that could define hard, clear lines for the
beach was the HP cartridges. IOW we needed the resolution that is speced. Most simply use such poor paper that
they cannot tell the difference between the better cartridges and those clone cartridges that don't come close to
200+ dots per inch - which they spec themselves at.
However the best way to make a simple PCBoard mask is to print the transparency directly from the Laser Printer
or Ink Jet printer. This means that the printing must be a negative. How do you invert a printing? How do you
make a negative of the PC board printout without reducing resolution - transfering the image through a Kodak
negative image paper? Is it possible? Is the software available?
russell shaw wrote:
> With the epson stylus (400+ etc), the epson transparency has a chemical
> absorbtion coating which makes all the difference. Also, i found that
> generic ink refills for the epson are no match for the genuine epson
> ink for blackness.
russell shaw
--
*******************************************
* Russell Shaw, B.Eng, M.Eng(Research) *
* Electronics Consultant *
* email: rus...@webaxs.net *
* Australia *
*******************************************
russell shaw
the pcb (most pcb cad can do it). Read the gerber in with a freeware
gerber editor (viewmate from http://www.lavenir.com is the best),
invert the image, then print to any printer. A disadvantage of
gerbers for home use is that the holes aren't printed, but that
doesn't always matter much. Alternatively, make your pcb using
positive resist.
reality wrote:
>
> We did this with ink jet size E paper plotters. Maps were printed with the ocean painted blue, land in sand
> yellow, etc. There is a vast difference in ink jet cartridges. Its just that most people never print with stiff
> requirement - they accept very fuzzy images.
>
> Not only is the cartridge important, but so is the paper. The only paper we could find that works was from K&E.
> Other paper simply diffuses the ink jet ink. That is often how a salesman sells his inferior cartridge - he uses
> different paper.
>
> The only cartridge that could paint the ocean blue without lines and that could define hard, clear lines for the
> beach was the HP cartridges. IOW we needed the resolution that is speced. Most simply use such poor paper that
> they cannot tell the difference between the better cartridges and those clone cartridges that don't come close to
> 200+ dots per inch - which they spec themselves at.
>
> However the best way to make a simple PCBoard mask is to print the transparency directly from the Laser Printer
> or Ink Jet printer. This means that the printing must be a negative. How do you invert a printing? How do you
> make a negative of the PC board printout without reducing resolution - transfering the image through a Kodak
> negative image paper? Is it possible? Is the software available?
>
> russell shaw wrote:
>
Jan Panteltje
> However the best way to make a simple PCBoard mask is to print the transparency directly from the Laser Printer
>or Ink Jet printer. This means that the printing must be a negative. How do you invert a printing? How do you
>make a negative of the PC board printout without reducing resolution - transfering the image through a Kodak
>negative image paper? Is it possible? Is the software available?
>
>
So the normal 'black for a track' on the transparency works fine.
Also, The Epson uses piezo printing heads, the HP's a thermal system, to get
the ink out.
In all consumer tests the Epson did win as far as quality is concerned.
I have used it to make pictures that I actually have on the wall.
On normal (well, special white) paper, looks very good.
I did not use any special Epson transparencies, just the normal overhead transp.
from the local supermarket.
Jan
-=[ niNja ]=-
I just made my first PCB. It took me three days to figure out a way to
get this to work, but I finally did. I printed the foil pattern on to
a sheet of regular copy paper. Then I ironed it onto the copper blank
for a couple of minutes. Finally, I let it soak over night in water.
In the morning, I was able to gently roll the off the copper blank
under warm running water. I had to touch up a couple of small places
on the board where the toner didn't transfer with a Sharpie marker. I
let it sit in the etching solution for about 20 minutes and rinsed it
under cold water. Worked like a charm!
I am, however going to try to use a paper towel as the transfer medi
next time. I think it might dissolve better in water than the regular
paper did...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:07:07 -0600, Russ LeMaster
<rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>Please see below...
>
>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >> There is nothing to transfer, just have the transparant close (inkt side)
>> >> against the PCB copper, use a vacuum or some pressure (piece of foam).
>> >> This works perfectly over here.
>> >> Jan
>> >
>
>Could you please elaborate on this. I am currently considering what technique I wish to use and I'm not familiar with
>the process you mention above.
>
>Thanks,
>Russ
>
>
---
Derek Tombrello
Southern Radio & TV
Jan Panteltje
>
>I just made my first PCB. It took me three days to figure out a way to
>get this to work, but I finally did. I printed the foil pattern on to
>a sheet of regular copy paper. Then I ironed it onto the copper blank
>for a couple of minutes. Finally, I let it soak over night in water.
>In the morning, I was able to gently roll the off the copper blank
>under warm running water. I had to touch up a couple of small places
>on the board where the toner didn't transfer with a Sharpie marker. I
>let it sit in the etching solution for about 20 minutes and rinsed it
>under cold water. Worked like a charm!
>
>I am, however going to try to use a paper towel as the transfer medi
>next time. I think it might dissolve better in water than the regular
>paper did...
>
Jan
lawrence
> <rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >Please see below...
> >
> >Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >
> >> >>
> >> >> There is nothing to transfer, just have the transparant close (inkt side)
> >> >> against the PCB copper, use a vacuum or some pressure (piece of foam).
> >> >> This works perfectly over here.
> >> >> Jan
> >> >
> >
> >Could you please elaborate on this. I am currently considering what technique I wish to use and I'm not familiar with
> >the process you mention above.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Russ
> >
> >
>
> ---
> Derek Tombrello
> Southern Radio & TV
>
> mrma...@bellsouth.net
--
I've tried it 'all' and that's why I settled on the clay coated paper.
-L
http://members.nccw.net/webe - WebElectric Magazine
reality
is to remain. Black is where the copper will be etched. The board is coated with a photoresist material. Where the
transparency is clear, then UV light hardens the photoresist. Ferric Chloride does not etch the copper where the
photoresist has been hardened..
This method involves no copies of copies - higher resolution and no little holes cause by inperfections of the mask
where desired copper would be etched away.
Below is a nice method but it is very labor intensive, involves overnight waiting, and careful removal of a mask
that sometimes leaves little holes in the important trace. This means an additional failure in a prototype that has
yet to be debugged. Every additional failure simply and exponentially increases complications. I require a
photoresist method and therefore need a negative of the PCB plot.
In the real world, the positive is photographed so that the negative makes a PC board. Instead, I must make the
negative directly out of the printer.
Lord Garth
black but it is like looking through the page or at the image in a mirror.
Wahlau-eh the News-Man <#wln...@pd.jaring.nospam.my> wrote in message
news:8jbgassnrs8mir168...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:15:52 -0600, "Lord Garth" <LGa...@tantalus.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You need a mirror image, not a negative.
> most graphics programs allow you to invert images.. that will give you
> a perfect negative image.
>
> regards,
> wahlau-eh...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> WWWWW email : wah...@aeon.com.my
> @ > o @ Hpage:
> | ^ | http://wahlau.cjb.net/
> \V/
> ~ ... remove 30centsStamp to reply via email...
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wahlau-eh the News-Man
Jan Panteltje
>negative directly out of the printer.
>
Change the world if you like, but leave me out.
On the photo sensitive pcb board that I use, (and most every one else I know),
the 'illuminated' parts of the photo print will be etched away.
(The develloper (caustic soda for example) removes the black layer there).
Regards
Jan
Lord Garth
image.
Positive or negative acting resist aside, it will still have to be a mirror
image.
I fully understand that in 'the real world' the usual products available for
etching
require a photo negative.
Let me ask you this, do you place the emulsion of your negative in contact
with the resist or is the film base material in contact with the resist
making
the emulsion 'up'? Hint, one way produces better detail and is a mirror
image, the other can allow some light to leak under and is not correct.
All of this is still in deference to positive or negative images...call it
forward or backwards.
My guess is that you are using your photo negative correctly but you don't
quite realize what is happening in terms of mirror image.
an Panteltje <j...@panteltje.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:950619219.4361....@news.demon.nl...
Jan Panteltje
>image.
>Positive or negative acting resist aside, it will still have to be a mirror
>image.
>I fully understand that in 'the real world' the usual products available for
>etching
> require a photo negative.
>
>Let me ask you this, do you place the emulsion of your negative in contact
>with the resist or is the film base material in contact with the resist
>making
>the emulsion 'up'? Hint, one way produces better detail and is a mirror
>image, the other can allow some light to leak under and is not correct.
>All of this is still in deference to positive or negative images...call it
>forward or backwards.
>
>My guess is that you are using your photo negative correctly but you don't
>quite realize what is happening in terms of mirror image.
>
(films and paper, used to be a hobby, before PC came along),
THERE IS NO NEGATIVE.
This is the procedure:
make a board layout (anuy program).
Select print, printer setup.
Select postscript to file (or printer), select mirror image (cause it is on the
back side not the component side, unless you do SMD or something alike),
select orientation landscape, portrait), se;ct format 9A4 perhaps),
and press OK.
What you wil get is something where the traces are black, and is a mirror image.
Put it on the photo pcb, with the ink against it, so you get no false light,
expose for 5 minues 30 seconds (in my case), devellop.
Think the first one like that I did in 1968 or so.
Now you have black traces on blank copper (where the black traces are the
remaining photo layer).
Etch for some minutes.
BTW I do not use ferri chloride, but white etch crystals, better etching,
not so much stain on your fingers, easier to see what is happening in the
clear fluid, only byproduct oxigen.
Ready.
What is your problem?
Jan
Lord Garth
I was 12 then and my Grandfather shot my line tape on mylar design.
I only mention photo negatives because you were seemingly not
understanding what the original poster asked about. I told him he
would need a mirror image and you answered with something about
a negative hence this thread.
My experience with positive and negative resist comes from making
IC's as well as printed circuits.
Jan Panteltje <j...@panteltje.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:950637986.13023....@news.demon.nl...
SRalston
Dave <da...@spam.bait.com> wrote in message
news:38a8faf7...@news2.newscene.com...
> How are the boards you supply tinned?
>
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:48:50 +1100, "SRalston" <SRal...@bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> > > > The Laser Printer PCB etch kit would simply print a negative of
> >the
> >> > PCB
Jan Panteltje
>I was 12 then and my Grandfather shot my line tape on mylar design.
>
I never adapted to the tape stuff, used rotring pens (for drawing)
on transparents (mylar was no good for the pens some one claimed, but
who cares), before that just the pcb pens (sonme sort of black inkt, but no
mistakes allowed.
Before that (68) I used wire with isolation sleeving to solder the things
together, used veroboard too, old things with tubes were usually on a metal
chassis.
Anyways them old board had far fewer tracks / inch (cm sorry), so you could
easily draw them with a marker pen.
Think the first one I did was a scope, with transistors and chips, with a dg7-32
(?) cm crt.
All on one 100 x 160 mm, including amps and timebase, trigger...
rtl chips, mind you.
Jan
Terry Porter
>>3 traces between the ic pads of a DIP?
>>
>>Panteltje) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>When I hear all this I wonder if the investment in an Epson color stylus
>>>(inktjet) may be worth it over time.
>>>I can get 3 traces between a DIL, the overhear projector transparants I use cost
>>>9.50 $ for 15 in any big shop,.
>>>I have the color 460, it cost only 150$, 720 dpi.
>>>The 640 costs 40 $ more but is 1440 dpi!
>>>Regards
>>>Jan
>>
>>
I use *only* Linux PCB too, its a fantastic package inmho.
I'll have to see what my 600dpi laser can do now ;-)
--
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use tjpo...@odyssey.apana.org.au ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 1 week 1 day 6 hours 43 minutes
** homepage http://www.odyssey.apana.org.au/~tjporter **
Terry Porter
>reality wrote:
>>
>> The Laser Printer PCB etch kit would simply print a negative of the PCB
>> trace on a transparency. The transparency would transfer the circuit onto
>> the photo etch PC Board. However I have had difficulty finding software
>> that will convert an image into a negative. Does such software exist? Why
>> does this method not work?
>
>I tried the same thing with transparencies and my IBM 4029 laser
>printer. Couldn't get the blacks opaque enough. Putting a printed page
>behind a large dark area and holding the sandiwch to a light, I could
>read the text. Figured it wouldn't stop UV so I went no further.
You should have persevered, I use the same laser, and get fantastic results,
with Kingsten precoated pcb, and plain old drafting film.
My problem was with pinholes, but overlaying 2 prints cuts them down to one
or two tiny pinholes.
Exposure with two "black light" 8 watt fluro tubes is 8 minutes. Development is
about 2 minutes, and etch in ferric chloride at 80 deg C is about 2 mins.
I couldn't be happier with the quality of my pcbs now. One track between 0.1
inch pins, SMD (sot23 etc) and 5 tracks between 0.3 inch pins.
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use tjpo...@odyssey.apana.org.au ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 1 week 1 day 8 hours 43 minutes
Edward Lee
> I use *only* Linux PCB too, its a fantastic package inmho.
What Linux PCB program do you use? I am currently using CAM350 on NT. I would like to use something similar on
Linux. Thanks.
Terry Porter
For Linux, there is "pcb", its a full featured
8 layer X windows cad program. Completely free
with *no* restrictions.
Featuring net-lists, rubber-banding,part
creation, mouse scrolling and much more.
It outputs Postscript and Gerber.
see:-
http://bach.ece.jhu.edu/~haceaton/pcb/
Kind Regards
Terry
--
**** To reach me, use tjpo...@odyssey.apana.org.au ****
My Desktop is powered by GNU/Linux, and has been
up 1 week 1 day 18 hours 43 minutes
russell shaw
really not very useful like the last unix system i worked on.
Yous gets what yous pays for.
--
Phil Robinson
1000:1, whereas the contrast ratio of the lasered transparency will be
equivalent to about 15 photographic stops (ie 2^^15 = 32,000 approx). Even
though the transparency "blacks" look weak, they are more than sufficient to
prevent decomposition of the +ve resist at the correct exposure time. If
you are getting poor retention of the tracks you are most likely
over-exposing. In my experience, there is almost no discernible difference
between the colour of the exposed and unexposed resist when correctly done.
If the unexposed lines are strongly visible against the rest, its probably
overdone! In addition, caustic soda is too strong as a developer for the
resists supplied to amateur PCB users - try sodium carbonate solution
(washing soda) and allow a little longer developing time.
--
---------------------
Phil Robinson
reality
numbers - the way a good technical post should be written. However I still do not
read of any software that would print a negative of a photoplot. What do you use
to create the negative for a PCB?
Shadow Company
Hint copper fill your entire board, this way you won't end up using so much toner make a negative on your film. Any body know of an "affordable" postive resist spray or liquid supplier in the U.S.? Seem like the European are the only
one with it. Why is it that company sell pre-coated positive board but sell spray or liquid in only negative form?? Hmm so they can sell neg-fast film??? Seems like a god damm scam to me.
Datak use to supply a yellow reversing film for their exposure frame. I never got one but can somebody elaborate on its operation and may be shed some light on an alternative. I would prefer to use protel but being stuck
with negative resist really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I can't believe that I will end up having to place an order half way around the world for one 200ml spray can!!!
Jan Panteltje
>You know for all that money that protel charges they could of at least included printing the negative of the circuit.
>Hint copper fill your entire board, this way you won't end up using so much toner make a negative on your film. Any body know
>of an "affordable" postive resist spray or liquid supplier in the U.S.? Seem like the European are the only
>one with it. Why is it that company sell pre-coated positive board but sell spray or liquid in only negative form?? Hmm so
>they can sell neg-fast film??? Seems like a god damm scam to me.
>Datak use to supply a yellow reversing film for their exposure frame. I never got one but can somebody elaborate on its
>operation and may be shed some light on an alternative. I would prefer to use protel but being stuck
>with negative resist really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I can't believe that I will end up having to place an order
>half way around the world for one 200ml spray can!!!
>
Load the postscript file generated by the pcb program in your editor:
Look for something like:
% some constants
/Black {0.0 mysetgray} def
/White {1.0 mysetgray} def
change this to:
% some constants
/Black {1.0 mysetgray} def
/White {0.0 mysetgray} def
And you have changed the definitions of black and white.
I just tried it on the pcb output, and it is perfect (creates a negative).
Now that will be 99.95 ex VAT
Why do I think of this in 100 uS?
Jan
Shadow Company
PRP from electrolube was mention. I can't find anyone who sell it except in Europe.
Where is everyone buying from (US/Canada)?
>can, for those who need odd sized boards. It sells for about $22 CDN for
>a 125 gram can (goes a long way).
>
>http://www.mgchemicals.com
>
>
>
>Shadow Company wrote:
>>
>> Traxmaker from Microcode Engineering does it. Not as good as the heavy weight "Protel" but does just what the hobbyist wants. You know for all that money that protel charges they could of at least included printing the negative of the circuit.
>> Hint copper fill your entire board, this way you won't end up using so much toner make a negative on your film. Any body know of an "affordable" postive resist spray or liquid supplier in the U.S.? Seem like the European are the only
>> one with it. Why is it that company sell pre-coated positive board but sell spray or liquid in only negative form?? Hmm so they can sell neg-fast film??? Seems like a god damm scam to me.
>> Datak use to supply a yellow reversing film for their exposure frame. I never got one but can somebody elaborate on its operation and may be shed some light on an alternative. I would prefer to use protel but being stuck
>> with negative resist really leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. I can't believe that I will end up having to place an order half way around the world for one 200ml spray can!!!
>>
Dave Martindale
>OK what is the part number ? I looked at their web page and they don't have any.
>PRP from electrolube was mention. I can't find anyone who sell it except in Europe.
Future Electronics/Active Electronics carries the MG Chemicals line.
I remember seeing the spray photoresist a few years ago (when I didn't
need it). But now that I want some, it no longer seems to be a
product. It's not listed on their web site.
It disappeared at about the same time the CFC-based stuff disappeared
(the R-12 based "dust gun" cans and R-11 based solvent cleaners). I
wonder if the photoresist was also based on a now-banned CFC and
couldn't be reformulated?
MG Chemicals does sell pre-sensitized copper boards, but this is
a pain because I normally want to build boards much smaller than
their smallest size. How practical is it to cut a presensitized
board without damaging the photoresist - either mechanically by
scratching it, or photographically by having too much light while
cutting?
Dave
Gary Rumble
>
> MG Chemicals does sell pre-sensitized copper boards, but this is
> a pain because I normally want to build boards much smaller than
> their smallest size. How practical is it to cut a presensitized
> board without damaging the photoresist - either mechanically by
> scratching it, or photographically by having too much light while
> cutting?
>
> Dave
I do it by covering both sides of the board with corregated cardboard
cut to the same size and taped all around. Then I draw the outline on
the cardboard and use a jigsaw with a good metal blade to cut it out.
So far I have only had a few small chips in photoresist near the edges.
--
Gary Rumble The opinions expressed are mine and don't
garu...@ichips.intel.com necessarily reflect the views of my employer.
http://www.teleport.com/~garumble
Jason Kuetemann
Select a board large enough to accomodate two or more copies of the
atrwork, expose and etch, then separate by cutting. This will prevent
any damage to the resist before etching. I'm pretty sure I've seen the
spray '416' positive resist recently, old stock parhaps.
Dave Martindale wrote:
>
> MG Chemicals does sell pre-sensitized copper boards, but this is
> a pain because I normally want to build boards much smaller than
> their smallest size. How practical is it to cut a presensitized
> board without damaging the photoresist - either mechanically by
> scratching it, or photographically by having too much light while
> cutting?
>
> Dave
--
Jason Kuetemann
jason....@sympatico.ca
Dave Martindale
> Select a board large enough to accomodate two or more copies of the
>atrwork, expose and etch, then separate by cutting. This will prevent
>any damage to the resist before etching.
That's what I'd do if these were production boards. But they are hobby
projects, and I only *need* one copy of the finished board.
Dave
sot...@my-deja.com
Maybe you should look at:
http://www.geocities.com/pdmtr/
to see another method for your Hobby/prototype boards.Its faster,and
you dont need light sensitive materials(boards).Just common copper
boards,cutting them at any size you wanna.
Regards
Sotiris Pdmtr
http://www.aspisys.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Russ LeMaster
I don't know about the DynaArt version, but I have tried the Press-N-Peel method.. it is basically the same thing. You
print it, then iron it on the board, then peel it off slowly. The end result is the same.. to place the toner on the
copper.
I just changed to positive photo-resist and I have to tell ya.. the toner based method is a cludge compared to this. I
accidently made some of my traces 5 mil and didn't notice it until after I had developed the board.. the thing is.. they
still came out.. I was amazed. I was doing good to get 10mil with the toner stuff.
Now if I can just figure out a good way to drill my holes without breaking all of my drill bits and tearing away the
copper in the process. :) Any hints on doing that?
Thanks,
Russ
David Mason wrote:
> I'm glad I saw this thread. I have been making PCB's at home for many
> years, mostly using positive-acting pre-sensitized boards. That eliminates
> the need to make a negative, but the positive resist is getting hard to
> find.
> What I'm interested in finding out is... has anyone had any experience with
> any of the Dyna-Art products? (http://www.dynaart.com). They have a
> special paper and fuser that allows you to print the positive image using
> any laser printer, then attaching the paper to a PCB blank, then running
> them through their fuser. Then you soak them in water until the paper
> dissolves or floats away from the board, leaving only the toner resist fused
> onto the board.
> The paper is a little costly at $2 per letter-sized sheet, and the fuser is
> around $300. But, if you make a lot of boards, even one at a time, it may
> be worth the cost, if it all works as flawlessly and easily as they claim.
> Has anyone used this system, or heard any feedback as to its effectiveness?
>
> Dave Mason
> Remove the 9's in my address to reply directly
>
> sot...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8906ck$e4l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Russ LeMaster
This could very likely be the problem. I am using a Wizard that is attached to a drill press (one of those Sears
things.. kinda cheap). I can grab the chuck of the tool and it does move slightly from side to side, so my guess is that
this is causing the breaks.
I do have another question in regard to this.. are there any neat tricks for aligning the drill holes. At this point, I
just move the board so that it looks like the hole area is under the drill tip and pull the press down. This is very
inexact, and I know the only way to get complete exact is by using really expensive equipment. I was just hoping maybe
someone had come up with some tricks to make things easier.
Also, could the fact that I am using 1 oz copper boards be the reason for my pads getting eaten up by the drill bit?
Thanks,
Russ
David Mason wrote:
> What kind of bits and drill press are you using?? I have found that bits
> last longest if they turn at at least 10K RPM, and a very tight press. No
> bearing play whatsoever in the mandrel. If you're using a Dremel tool for
> drilling, you may have a sloppy bearing in the motor. Make sure the
> bearings are very good with no runout (side-to-side play).
>
> Bits are always a high casualty item in this use because of their small
> size, and high speeds. But caution is always the key word. A tight drill
> press is the most critical factor.
>
> Dave Mason
>
> Russ LeMaster wrote in message <38D97CCB...@bellsouth.net>...
Ken
Russ wrote:
>
> Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
That and the drill speed and feed rate of the drill. Commercial shops
run the drill bits extremely fast compared to what most drill presses
can deliver. 20,000 rpm is not uncommon and the feed rate of the bit
into and out of the material is also quite fast.
--
Ken Tyler - 1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/
Rich Grise
10K - I like the item about the tight bearings - makes a lot of sense.
My contribution to this thread would be to use carbide or titanium
nitride bits.
Good Luck!
Rich
Rich Grise
>
> Russ wrote:
> >
> > Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> > about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
>
> That and the drill speed and feed rate of the drill. Commercial shops
> run the drill bits extremely fast compared to what most drill presses
> can deliver. 20,000 rpm is not uncommon and the feed rate of the bit
> into and out of the material is also quite fast.
I'd heard that the commercial shops use punches - but they punch the
holes before they etch the traces, so who knows?
Rich
David Mason
David Mason
Dave Mason
Russ
about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
Russ LeMaster wrote:
>
> Also, could the fact that I am using 1 oz copper boards be the reason for my pads getting eaten up by the drill bit?
>
> Thanks,
> Russ
>
--
Russ LeMaster
I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
Also, I suspect that the exposed copper on the inside of the holes would cause some etching to occur under the resist
for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
One of the biggest problems is getting the holes drilled precisely. I can get "real" close, but for some components (ie:
headers with thick pins that don't bend very easily), being off just a bit can cause real problems.
Thanks for any input.
Russ
Rich Grise wrote:
> Ken wrote:
> >
> > Russ wrote:
> > >
> > > Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> > > about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
> >
John Devereux
in the center of the pad clear, so that you end up
with a ring of copper with a hole in the middle.
The "hole" serves to initially center the drill
bit.
-- John Devereux
Ken
Rich Grise wrote:
>
> Ken wrote:
> >
> > Russ wrote:
> > >
> > > Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> > > about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
> >
> > That and the drill speed and feed rate of the drill. Commercial shops
> > run the drill bits extremely fast compared to what most drill presses
> > can deliver. 20,000 rpm is not uncommon and the feed rate of the bit
> > into and out of the material is also quite fast.
>
> I'd heard that the commercial shops use punches - but they punch the
> holes before they etch the traces, so who knows?
I have worked in several commercial board shops and have never seen
them punched. It might be practiced in shops where the run 30,000
boards of the same time and they are of a generaly low quality item
like seen in cheap transistor radios but it certainly is not a practice
you will find in low quantity high quality production runs. I doubt
you will ever see this practiced where multilayer boards are concerned.
Randy Barrow
>
> It helps a lot if your software can leave a spot
> in the center of the pad clear, so that you end up
> with a ring of copper with a hole in the middle.
> The "hole" serves to initially center the drill
> bit.
>
I'd definitely second what John said. In my setup, I have two macros
that I run before I generate my Gerber files. One turns the pad holes ON
for PCBs that I make on the bench, the other turns pad holes OFF for
anything I send out to a commercial PCB house.
Of course I did screw up on a rush job and accidentally replaced (using
the wrong macro) all the 1/8W resistor holes with a square pad AFTER I
had made my surface ground plane. The board house caught the error, but
we had to eat about $1100 worth of units with multiple short circuits! I
kept a low profile for about a month after that one ;-(
Later,
Randy Barrow
--
==============================================
Please remove NOSPAM from address for replies
==============================================
Gary Rumble
>
> It helps a lot if your software can leave a spot
> in the center of the pad clear, so that you end up
> with a ring of copper with a hole in the middle.
> The "hole" serves to initially center the drill
> bit.
Heartily agree.
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:15:49 -0600, Russ LeMaster
> <rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
> >Also, I suspect that the exposed copper on the inside of the holes would cause some etching to occur under the resist
> >for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
> >
> >If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
> >
> >One of the biggest problems is getting the holes drilled precisely. I can get "real" close, but for some components (ie:
> >headers with thick pins that don't bend very easily), being off just a bit can cause real problems.
> >
> >Thanks for any input.
> >
> >Russ
I drill before I etch, I lost too many pads the other way around. The
only problem I have is if the bit is getting a bit dull it gyrates
around a bit before starting the hole which can score off some of the
resist. I get very little etch "creep" from the inside of the hole out.
Hole alignment is a problem (especially with DS boards). For sockets
and other linear groups of holes I clamp a straight edge to the base of
the drill press then I only have to align in one dimension.
I can't emphasize enough the importance of sharp bits.
Russ LeMaster
This was the case. And in fact, I think it contributed to my drill bits breaking. If I don't line up the drill bit just right
then lower it into the center of the pad (the part with no copper), but I miss just a bit.. it tends to guide the tip of the
drill bit in the direction of the center of the pad.. thus causing stress on it and breaking it.
Thanks,
Russ
John Devereux wrote:
> It helps a lot if your software can leave a spot
> in the center of the pad clear, so that you end up
> with a ring of copper with a hole in the middle.
> The "hole" serves to initially center the drill
> bit.
>
> -- John Devereux
>
> jo...@devereux.demon.co.uk
>
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:15:49 -0600, Russ LeMaster
> <rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
> >Also, I suspect that the exposed copper on the inside of the holes would cause some etching to occur under the resist
> >for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
> >
> >If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
> >
> >One of the biggest problems is getting the holes drilled precisely. I can get "real" close, but for some components (ie:
> >headers with thick pins that don't bend very easily), being off just a bit can cause real problems.
> >
> >Thanks for any input.
> >
> >Russ
> >
> >
> >Rich Grise wrote:
> >
> >> Ken wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Russ wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> >> > > about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
> >> >
> >> > That and the drill speed and feed rate of the drill. Commercial shops
> >> > run the drill bits extremely fast compared to what most drill presses
> >> > can deliver. 20,000 rpm is not uncommon and the feed rate of the bit
> >> > into and out of the material is also quite fast.
> >>
> >> I'd heard that the commercial shops use punches - but they punch the
> >> holes before they etch the traces, so who knows?
> >>
> >> Rich
Russ LeMaster
I may give the drill before etching thing a try on my next board just to see how it goes. I wonder if the "gyrations" would be
helped by using a hole punch or something and putting a slight "ding" in the center of the pad before drilling?
Any problems with the copper getting oxidized here during the time you are drilling?
Thanks for info Gary, these are very helpful.
Thanks again,
Russ
Gary Rumble wrote:
> John Devereux wrote:
> >
> > It helps a lot if your software can leave a spot
> > in the center of the pad clear, so that you end up
> > with a ring of copper with a hole in the middle.
> > The "hole" serves to initially center the drill
> > bit.
>
> Heartily agree.
>
> > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 02:15:49 -0600, Russ LeMaster
> > <rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
> > >Also, I suspect that the exposed copper on the inside of the holes would cause some etching to occur under the resist
> > >for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
> > >
> > >If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
> > >
> > >One of the biggest problems is getting the holes drilled precisely. I can get "real" close, but for some components (ie:
> > >headers with thick pins that don't bend very easily), being off just a bit can cause real problems.
> > >
> > >Thanks for any input.
> > >
> > >Russ
>
Russ LeMaster
6 or 7 mm? Do you mean 6 or 7 mil? 6 mm is actually pretty large when it comes to drill sizes for pc boards. If you are
using that size, then no wonder you haven't broken a bit in ages..:)
The only bits I have found are the ones with 1/8" shanks. I'm not familiar with any others. Where do you find them?
Thanks,
Russ
Tom Windelinckx wrote:
> It's not the speed that matters in my experience.
> Aligning goes automatic - whenever I drill, the bit automaticly centers in
> the hole in the pad.
> Be sure to use bits that DO NOT have a wide shaft and a narrow point - they
> always break at the point where they get thinner. Use the ones with the same
> overall width, they are much more flexible and do not break easily. I
> suppose the smallest holes you need are 6 or 7 mm, right?
> Must say i haven't broken a drill in ages... On a home made drill stand.
>
> Tommix
>
> David Mason heeft geschreven in bericht ...
Russ LeMaster
I don't think they are bent, but they are likely dull. These are those cheapo drill bits you get from places like
Jameco, etc.. I think they are used bits (maybe refurbished, but I'm not sure). The new ones are so danged expensive
that I have been histant about dishing out the money until I got the hang of things.
The small hole thing is a cool idea, I will give that a try. Of course, the only problem herre is that I am taking parts
from a prebuilt library with the pads already defined in them. I am using a cad system (Eagle).
Thanks for the tips (no pun intended :), I'll give this a try.
Thanks again,
Russ
David Mason wrote:
> Hi back, Russ
> Yes, the wobble in the chuck is highly suspect in your bit breakage problem.
> To get your hole exactly in the center of the pad, if you're using a PCB CAD
> program, use pad patterns with a small hole on the center (I use .020
> holes), and etch the holes in the pads. Then you have a small dimple
> exactly in the center of the pad that you can use to align the bit in. Just
> hold the board lightly until the bit settles into the dimple, then let the
> drill do the work.
> If you're not using CAD, your best bet is to use a small awl or punch to
> (gently) put a dimple into the pad center, then set your drill into that.
> Granted, it's not as accurate as the CAD method, but it will help keep your
> bit from wandering when you're starting a new hole.
>
> No, I don't think that 1 oz. boards are causing your pad damage. What
> condition are your bits in??? Dull or worn bits will cause all kinds of
> damage. Make sure they're not bent,either. Roll them on a very flat
> surface and see if there is any sign of wobble. If there is, throw that bit
> away. It's likely that your bits are getting bent because of the wobbly
> chuck on your drill.
>
> Dave Mason
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Russ LeMaster wrote in message <38D99FFD...@bellsouth.net>...
> >Hi David,
> >
> >This could very likely be the problem. I am using a Wizard that is attached
> to a drill press (one of those Sears
> >things.. kinda cheap). I can grab the chuck of the tool and it does move
> slightly from side to side, so my guess is that
> >this is causing the breaks.
> >
> >I do have another question in regard to this.. are there any neat tricks
> for aligning the drill holes. At this point, I
> >just move the board so that it looks like the hole area is under the drill
> tip and pull the press down. This is very
> >inexact, and I know the only way to get complete exact is by using really
> expensive equipment. I was just hoping maybe
> >someone had come up with some tricks to make things easier.
> >
Russ
carbide drills. With manual targeting of the holes, i've done
50way headers and 44plccs easily. The important thing to prevent
burring and pad ripping is a sharp drill. You can drill 0.8mm
holes by running the drill backwards! If it takes the same effort
as normal drilling, you know the drill is blunt.
--
Tom Windelinckx
Aligning goes automatic - whenever I drill, the bit automaticly centers in
the hole in the pad.
Be sure to use bits that DO NOT have a wide shaft and a narrow point - they
always break at the point where they get thinner. Use the ones with the same
overall width, they are much more flexible and do not break easily. I
suppose the smallest holes you need are 6 or 7 mm, right?
Must say i haven't broken a drill in ages... On a home made drill stand.
Tommix
David Mason heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>What kind of bits and drill press are you using?? I have found that bits
>last longest if they turn at at least 10K RPM, and a very tight press. No
>bearing play whatsoever in the mandrel. If you're using a Dremel tool for
>drilling, you may have a sloppy bearing in the motor. Make sure the
>bearings are very good with no runout (side-to-side play).
>
>Bits are always a high casualty item in this use because of their small
>size, and high speeds. But caution is always the key word. A tight drill
>press is the most critical factor.
>
>Dave Mason
>
>
>Russ LeMaster wrote in message <38D97CCB...@bellsouth.net>...
>>Hi David,
>>
David Mason
Robert Strand
I tried drilling first at one stage and found the resist get damaged to some extent. When you etch, the etchant can corrode
the area around the hole and the edge around the hole gets pitted, you have to remove oxide with an abrasive. Often the
holes didn't solder well, so I would recommend drilling last.
Regards
Rob
Rich Grise
>
> I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
> for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
>
> If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
>
was that
the commercial houses punch all the holes at once on a huge press, then
plate
the board (this is how they get plated-through holes) then apply the
resist,
then etch. I would never suggest a technique like that to someone who's
drilling holes one at a time - at least I'd never do it myself. If you
want better accuracy, what I'd suggest is, use pads on your artwork with
very, very small holes. Etch the board, and you'll have a tiny little
hole
in the copper at the center of where the hole is supposed to be. Hold
the
board fairly loosely as you approach it with the 13K RPM TiN or carbide
bit,
and let the tiny hole in the copper act the way a center punch would
work
on a piece of sheet metal - eyeball it real close, and hold it loosely
enough to let it align itself, and when you're centered in, then hold
the board tightly enough, and drill. It might take a little practice,
but it works for me!
Good Luck!
Rich
Rich Grise
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> 6 or 7 mm? Do you mean 6 or 7 mil? 6 mm is actually pretty large when it comes to drill sizes for pc boards. If you are
> using that size, then no wonder you haven't broken a bit in ages..:)
>
> The only bits I have found are the ones with 1/8" shanks. I'm not familiar with any others. Where do you find them?
>
> Thanks,
> Russ
>
um, is it #60? or .040"?
And I think you can get them in a two-pack in either titanium nitride or
tungsten carbide, so
they don't go dull as fast. Speed can be controversial too - I've heard
it said that most people
run their drill way too fast, but that's a hand drill on other kinds of
shop work - a #6 tap
drill in aluminum, for example. But real fast seems to work on PCB's -
and I see at least three
other people beat me to it on the "leave a hole in the pad to center the
bit."
WeeeeeYowwwwwVeeee.....eeeeeeYowwwwwVeeee...
When you hear that, you know you're doing it right.
Cheers!
Rich
Rich Grise
>
> Hi David,
>
> Jameco, etc.. I think they are used bits (maybe refurbished, but I'm not sure). The new ones are so danged expensive
> that I have been histant about dishing out the money until I got the hang of things.
>
> The small hole thing is a cool idea, I will give that a try. Of course, the only problem herre is that I am taking parts
> from a prebuilt library with the pads already defined in them. I am using a cad system (Eagle).
>
> Thanks for the tips (no pun intended :), I'll give this a try.
>
> Thanks again,
> Russ
>
program let you put one pad
on top of the other? Or modify your library pads? Actually, I'd like to
hear if anyone's had
any experience with the "let the drill do the work" with actual-size
holes in the pads, and
see if that still works.
Good Luck!
Rich
John Woodgate
<rlem...@bellsouth.net> inimitably wrote:
>Hi Tom,
>
>6 or 7 mm? Do you mean 6 or 7 mil? 6 mm is actually pretty large when it comes
>to drill sizes for pc boards. If you are
>using that size, then no wonder you haven't broken a bit in ages..:)
He must be making 100 kVA variable-speed drive controllers, which are
made on MASSIVE pc boards to minimise lead inductance so that EMC
requirements can be met.
>
>The only bits I have found are the ones with 1/8" shanks. I'm not familiar with
>any others. Where do you find them?
Both sorts are freely available in Europe. But if the ones with 1/8 or
3.2 mm shanks break at the transition, the transition profile is wrong.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
I wanted to make a fully-automated nuclear-powered trawler,
but it went into spontaneous fishing.
John Woodgate
ngineering.com> inimitably wrote:
>No! I never meant to drill before you etch, what I meant
>was that
>the commercial houses punch all the holes at once on a huge press, then
>plate
>the board (this is how they get plated-through holes) then apply the
>resist,
>then etch.
volumes in consumer products and I suppose it can be done with epoxy
boards, but tooling would be enormously costly, since the board material
is so abrasive and thus hard metals would be required (I mean harder
than tool steel). IIRC, epoxy boards are punched (for large cut-outs and
non-rectangular profiles) when not fully cured and are fully cured after
punching.
John Devereux
I find that the initial hole should be smaller
than actual size; just large enough to capture the
point of the drill bit.
-- John Devereux
Russ LeMaster
I can update the libraries. In fact, I have already started doing just that. I made copies of all the libs and placed them in
a different directory. Now I just edit them before hand. I haven't tried it on a board yet, but it does make since. I tried
the other (using the normal sized holes) and it doesn't work very well. The bit moves all over the place then generally
settles in on a place other then the exact center so you are left with sort of a half-moon shaped pad. In one case, it even
destroyed the connection from the pad to the trace.
I'm going to give the small hole thing a shot.
Thanks,
Russ
Russ LeMaster
I haven't tried any hobby shops yet, but the hardware stores around here definitely don't carry them. The smallest they go is
1/16". I'll try the hobby store route and see what happens.
Thanks,
Russ
Rich Grise wrote:
> Russ LeMaster wrote:
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > 6 or 7 mm? Do you mean 6 or 7 mil? 6 mm is actually pretty large when it comes to drill sizes for pc boards. If you are
> > using that size, then no wonder you haven't broken a bit in ages..:)
> >
> > The only bits I have found are the ones with 1/8" shanks. I'm not familiar with any others. Where do you find them?
> >
James Meyer
wrote:
>on top of the other? Or modify your library pads? Actually, I'd like to
>hear if anyone's had
>any experience with the "let the drill do the work" with actual-size
>holes in the pads, and
>see if that still works.
>
>Good Luck!
>Rich
In the olden days, I used tape and donuts to make layouts, usually X2 or
X4, and had litho negatives made so that I could expose pre-sensitized boards.
The donuts always had a hole in the middle. It makes it easier to get the pad
down on the intersection of a grid when you can see through the hole in the
middle.
That gave me a hole in the copper after the board was etched. Now about
the drilling... an ordinary high speed steel (HSS) drill is so flexible that it
will "walk" around and "find" the center of the hole if it gets anywhere near
the hole. But a carbide "real PCB" drill will snap in a heartbeat if you try to
drill a pad with a hole in the middle because it will *try* to walk to the
center but it can't because the carbide will not bend at all before snapping.
Hole in the middle.... HSS drills
Carbide drills........ no hole
Ordinary HSS drills get dull really quickly from the fiberglass boards.
Carbide drills get dull too but they can drill 100 times more holes before they
do. The good thing about HSS drills is that you can sharpen them really quickly
with an ordinary whet stone by hand and you can do that many many times before
they are used up. The angles and such on the tip of a large drill bit need to
be pretty precise, but for the tiny sizes used for PCB holes, you can be pretty
far off from the ideal angles and they will still work fine.
Jim
Nick Ray
later a Dremel. The Reliant had a chuck & the Dremel used a collet, both of
which were crap and didn't hold the drill bit entirely central, especially
with those 1/8" shaft bits. In the end I got a friend with a jeweller's
lathe to make a relacement collet for the Dremel which now works like a
dream.
- Nick
Tom Windelinckx wrote in message <8be7pb$4t6$1...@news0.skynet.be>...
Rich Grise
lines of "Let the drill bit align the board" than "Let the board align
the drill bit," as a couple of other posters have mentioned. Hold the
board
loosely, so the bit in the center of the donut hole can move it into
place,
then grasp it firmly and finish the hole. I was trying to drill out a
hardened bolt one time, and I sent my assistant to the store for a
carbide
bit, and he came back with TiN (Titanium Nitride) and it was fantastic!
Mild steel, or tool steel, with a TiN coating, somewhat like
case-hardening.
Now, for small bits, I won't use anything else.
Cheers!
Rich
Russ LeMaster
This is good news since the HSS bits are much cheaper..:)
Thanks for the info.
Russ
Russ LeMaster
Since I seem to be unable to find any of these locally, are you aware of any place online where one might order TiN
bits?
Thanks,
Russ
Rich Grise wrote:
> Yeah, I've done tape'n'donuts before - but I was thinking more along the
> lines of "Let the drill bit align the board" than "Let the board align
> the drill bit," as a couple of other posters have mentioned. Hold the
> board
> loosely, so the bit in the center of the donut hole can move it into
> place,
> then grasp it firmly and finish the hole. I was trying to drill out a
> hardened bolt one time, and I sent my assistant to the store for a
> carbide
> bit, and he came back with TiN (Titanium Nitride) and it was fantastic!
> Mild steel, or tool steel, with a TiN coating, somewhat like
> case-hardening.
> Now, for small bits, I won't use anything else.
>
> Cheers!
> Rich
>
Rich Grise
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> Since I seem to be unable to find any of these locally, are you aware of any place online where one might order TiN
> bits?
>
> Thanks,
> Russ
>
ordinary hardware
store, or even "Home Club," or whatever it's called in your local area.
I'm assuming,
of course, that we're talking US here. They're in a card pack - you
know, the cardboard
with the plastic film sucked down on top to seal it? The part with the
flutes is a
goldish or brassish color, and the shank is plain old tool steel. Even
the auto parts
might have them, but that's a little remote. As far as ordering them
online, I have
no idea, but you might try McMaster-Carr - they have EVERYTHING.
(There's a McMaster-Carr about a mile from where I work, and I swear, if
you got
all those shelves and crap out of there, you could play three football
games and
probably a couple of basketball games simultaneously in that building -
the warehouse
is HUGE!)
Good Luck!
Rich
Russ
adequate speed, i found the dimple in the pads is only a visual aid, and the carbide
drill will make a hole wherever you put it, without any walking happening.
James Meyer wrote:
>
> the hole. But a carbide "real PCB" drill will snap in a heartbeat if you try to
> drill a pad with a hole in the middle because it will *try* to walk to the
> center but it can't because the carbide will not bend at all before snapping.
>
> Hole in the middle.... HSS drills
>
> Carbide drills........ no hole
>
> Ordinary HSS drills get dull really quickly from the fiberglass boards.
> Carbide drills get dull too but they can drill 100 times more holes before they
> do. The good thing about HSS drills is that you can sharpen them really quickly
> with an ordinary whet stone by hand and you can do that many many times before
> they are used up. The angles and such on the tip of a large drill bit need to
> be pretty precise, but for the tiny sizes used for PCB holes, you can be pretty
> far off from the ideal angles and they will still work fine.
>
> Jim
--
&retired0
1/8" shaft carbide bits work extremely well.
The secret to not breaking them is NOT to put a dimple in
the copper, don't bend 'em, and don't use
too much pressure. In summary, don't bend 'em. There are
only two kinds of drill to use: Sharp and Sharper.
Anything with a chuck did not work for me. A Dremel tool
with a collet keeps the bit running true.
I had hole position problems too. When the error is in the
direction of the trace, the trace
tends to get disconnected from the pad. Solved them by
modifying a surplus 3-axis stage with stepper motors
to hold the dremel. I project a cross-hair onto the board
for alignment of the board position, feed it
the drill chart, then let 'er rip.
Still haven't solved the problem of ripping off tiny pads,
so I don't use 'em. Pads don't have to be
round. You often have some free space around the pad in at
least one direction. You can add a square of
copper to one or more sides to "anchor" the pad to the board
during drilling.
mike
Russ LeMaster wrote:
>
> I thought about drilling before I etch, but I think the same thing that is ripping up my pads would rip away the resist.
> Also, I suspect that the exposed copper on the inside of the holes would cause some etching to occur under the resist
> for the pads. I have another mini-tool that I'm going to test.
>
> If anyone has any other tips here I would greatly appreciate them.
>
> One of the biggest problems is getting the holes drilled precisely. I can get "real" close, but for some components (ie:
> headers with thick pins that don't bend very easily), being off just a bit can cause real problems.
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> Russ
>
> Rich Grise wrote:
>
> > Ken wrote:
> > >
> > > Russ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sharpen your drill! Also, ordinary steel bits get pretty blunt after
> > > > about 50 holes. Best is tungstan-carbide types with the 1/8" shank.
> > >
> > > That and the drill speed and feed rate of the drill. Commercial shops
> > > run the drill bits extremely fast compared to what most drill presses
> > > can deliver. 20,000 rpm is not uncommon and the feed rate of the bit
> > > into and out of the material is also quite fast.
> >
> > I'd heard that the commercial shops use punches - but they punch the
> > holes before they etch the traces, so who knows?
> >
> > Rich
--
Big list of WANTS and FORSALES at link below.
Return Address is Bogus. Click below to reply
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Or you can DELETE the & in the "from" address.
Chris
wrote:
>Hi Rich,
>
>I haven't tried any hobby shops yet, but the hardware stores around
>here definitely don't carry them. The smallest they go is 1/16".
>I'll try the hobby store route and see what happens.
[snips]
Where your connectors etc. have pins on a 0.1" pitch (ie they can fit on
normal strip-board), one way to get the holes right is to carefully drill
one hole at each end, temporarily insert through-pins, and use them to
position/anchor a piece of strip-board on top of the PCB. Then drill
through the appropriate strip-board holes.
If you use a lot of the same connector types, it could be worth making
metal templates.
I've tried drilling both before and after etching, without finding much
difference. If you drill before etching, dabbing each hole with an
etch-resist pen will prevent most 'undermining'.
Chris
Russ LeMaster
The use of strip boards did occur to me, but I didn't really have a good idea as to how to get them lined up. This
sounds like a neat trick, thanks.
Later,
Russ
Rich Grise
my own defense, I never advocated bending bits, I was on
the "hold the board gently until it centers" side. You
sound like one of those pros that I thought used the big
punches, which I've been corrected on, but crosshairs?
In my home shop, I'm sticking with the straight-shank
bits, and the "hold it loose" principle. :-)
Regards,
Rich
Rich Grise
>
> If your drill is a bit slow, the walk may break the carbide bit. However, with
> adequate speed, i found the dimple in the pads is only a visual aid, and the carbide
> drill will make a hole wherever you put it, without any walking happening.
>
> James Meyer wrote:
> >
> > the hole. But a carbide "real PCB" drill will snap in a heartbeat if you try to
> > drill a pad with a hole in the middle because it will *try* to walk to the
> > center but it can't because the carbide will not bend at all before snapping.
Come on, folks! Nobody's advocating asking the bit to comply to the
mispositioning
of the board! Let the board do the "walking!" (I just thought that up!
Must be
good drugs!) And so, consequently, carbide is not a good pick for this
application.
And I'll advocate Titanium Nitride until I see better.
Cheers!
Rich
&retired0
invested...if you don't count the gazillion hours I've spent
tinkering with it over the last ten years.
You can project crosshairs quite nicely
by soldering an "X" of #30 wire across the end of a brass
tube
about 10" long and just big enough diameter to hold a lamp
at the
other end. It helps if you paint the inside black so you
get something approximating a point source. The wire casts
a shadow that works nicely for alignment. If you stick
it to the side of the dremel with duct tape, you can
calibrate
the offset into the drilling program.
The three axis gizmo came from a ham radio swapmeet $15.
Virtually every hamfest has boxes of used but good enuff
drill bits. Last batch was 20 for a buck.
mike
--
Robert Crable
drilling, averaging 5 or 6 boards a week with the average size about 3x4" and
250 holes. We use carbide resharps, #65 AWG (.034"), and that size hole fits
almost everything we mount except big 2W resistors and some transformer wires
bigger than #20 or so. They're cheap, a pack of 5 is only $3.25 from Hosfelt
Electronics. For hand drilling, we use a Dremel in one of their drill press
stands, and like some of the other people here I have found a dimple in the
center will help center the bit, as long as it isn't off too far. They are hard
and brittle, so moving the board when the drill bit in will definately result in
a broken bit, but they stay sharp much longer than plain steel bits. When I
drill with these bits, with the Dremel running full speed, about 20,000 RPM, I
pull it into the work as quickly as possible, with one quick flick of the
finger. This may sound surprising, but the bit is going so fast that moving it
in too slowly will cause it to overheat and dull more quickly, plus it gives you
less of a chance of wiggling the board while it's in there. I haven't had to do
much hand drilling since we built our own computer controlled drill a few years
ago, but I had lots of practice before then, so anyone with more specific
questions let me know.
--
Robert Crable
Assistant Research Engineer
Research Instruments Electronics Shop
Chemistry Department
The Pennsylvania State University
Andy
holes by default for most components (all TTL/CMOS/MEMORY/uP etc) the pads
are actually octagonal.
The drill I use is a small commercial setup; the drill/motor arrangement is
below a metal plate, the plate has a hole in it and you lay your board on
the plate, you then use a magnifying glass/crosshair above the board to
align the hole and fire away. the whole motor/drill is elevated using a
simplish cam system. I've used this system for >10years without ripping any
pads off using carbide drills ranging from 0.5mm to 1.6mm, ok, you do
occasionally get drills snapping but this is mainly due to moard movement as
the drill is brought up. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll bung
some images on my web page, it shouldnt be too hard to DIY.
--
AndyC
http://pages.zoom.co.uk/andyc
Home of ACIDE and the AVR Gameboy camera project
"Russ LeMaster" <rlem...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:38DB9573...@bellsouth.net...
> Hi Rich,
>
> I can update the libraries. In fact, I have already started doing just
that. I made copies of all the libs and placed them in
> a different directory. Now I just edit them before hand. I haven't tried
it on a board yet, but it does make since. I tried
> the other (using the normal sized holes) and it doesn't work very well.
The bit moves all over the place then generally
> settles in on a place other then the exact center so you are left with
sort of a half-moon shaped pad. In one case, it even
> destroyed the connection from the pad to the trace.
>
> I'm going to give the small hole thing a shot.
>
> Thanks,
> Russ
>
>
> Rich Grise wrote:
>
> > Russ LeMaster wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi David,
> > >
> > > I don't think they are bent, but they are likely dull. These are those
cheapo drill bits you get from places like
> > > Jameco, etc.. I think they are used bits (maybe refurbished, but I'm
not sure). The new ones are so danged expensive
> > > that I have been histant about dishing out the money until I got the
hang of things.
> > >
> > > The small hole thing is a cool idea, I will give that a try. Of
course, the only problem herre is that I am taking parts
> > > from a prebuilt library with the pads already defined in them. I am
using a cad system (Eagle).
> > >
> > > Thanks for the tips (no pun intended :), I'll give this a try.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > > Russ
> > >
> > I wish the pun had been intended, it's pretty good! Will your CAD
> > program let you put one pad
Russ LeMaster
I am using the same version. It wasn't that it didn't place holes in the pads. just that the holes are so large that it
doesn't keep the tip of the bit centered as it starts to dig in. The suggestion was to make the holes smaller
as to provide sort of a pin-hole for easier centering.
Thanks,
Russ
Andy
BTW: back to the original questionish, does anyone regularly use PNP blue?
If so, what are the most important things to look out for during the
processing? ie min track size, cleaning method, brand of iron!
AndyC