Boris Floriciz
dsc...@networkusa.net
Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
of encryption methods or what?
--
http://cryptography.org/cgi-bin/crypto.cgi/Misc/scott19u.zip
http://members.xoom.com/ecil/index.htm
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Douglas A. Gwyn
> What has happened to the case of the death of
> Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
> of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
> of encryption methods or what?
As far as I can determine, the homicide investigation is still in
progress. Since there has been no evidence reported that would
suggest NSA involvement, nor any reason to think there would have
been any such involvement, your suggestion amounts to slander.
dsc...@networkusa.net
Since when is it a slander to ask a question. Your accussing me
however borders on slander.
ke...@tgr.arg
> "Douglas A. Gwyn" <DAG...@null.net> wrote:
>> dsc...@networkusa.net wrote:
>> > What has happened to the case of the death of
>> > Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
>> > of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
>> > of encryption methods or what?
>>
>> As far as I can determine, the homicide investigation is still in
>> progress. Since there has been no evidence reported that would
>> suggest NSA involvement, nor any reason to think there would have
>> been any such involvement, your suggestion amounts to slander.
>>
>
> Since when is it a slander to ask a question. Your accussing me
>however borders on slander.
I have to agree with Mr. Scott here--looks like a question, not a
slanderous statement, to me.
Mike
Decrypt ke...@tgr.arg with ROT13 for email address.
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Douglas A. Gwyn
> >> dsc...@networkusa.net wrote:
> >> > What has happened to the case of the death of
> >> > Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
> >> > of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
> >> > of encryption methods or what?
> slanderous statement, to me.
The question *suggests as an explanation* that he was killed by the NSA.
dsc...@networkusa.net
I have to agree with keaak. To sugguest that my English is even good
enough for such suddle indeirection and motive is crazy. You are the
are the one who is slanering me. But then maybe you lack total
control of your brain and can't help jump to erronous conculsions.
Stephan Eisvogel
> What has happened to the case of the death of
> Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
> of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
> of encryption methods or what?
David,
His name is spelled with a 'c' at the end.
Boris most of the time was not known for his
crypt-analytic skills, he rather was a true genius
at exploiting protocol flaws in many systems involving
smart-cards, particularly pay-tv access control
systems used throughout Europe. He also worked on
projects that indeed involved cryptographic methods,
but this was only of minor importance as he used what
was there and proven, most of the time the IDEA
cipher by Ascom.
One can speculate what may cause somebody to call the
'cleaners' to remove a hacker wunderkind (if indeed his
death was involuntary), maybe he saw something he
shouldn't have at some obscure meeting, maybe somebody
tried to hire him and failed, maybe he was seen as
competition to some, destroying profits (big maybe here,
smartcard pirates don't do this), maybe it was somebody
from the ultra-left/right-wing movement in Berlin who
didn't like Boris helping out the 'enemy' with some
chemical devices, I heard of 3000 degree celsius hot
'burning torches' capable of eating through most police
cars, concrete etc., set off by a remote control.
As for the NSA (why does nobody pay ME for reading Usenet)
there was a project rolling involving a highly secure,
fault-tolerant, encrypting ISDN phone. I know its specs
and believe me, whatever your president has to call
Yeltsin or Major, this probably makes STU look like a
cheap toy. CCC of Berlin [1] has taken over all further
development to finish the Cryptron's low-level s/w after
Tron's death. Being open-source and open-protocol, you
even can verify what it does and how it does it. For
details, wait until CCC'98 at the end of this year,
pointers should appear on [1] around early/mid-1999.
Why am writing this? Because I am SICK of reading nonsense
about this whole tragedy at places like Slashdot.org or on
Usenet News. Please cc: replies to my email-address, I may
not be reading it on Usenet.
So long,
Stephan
--
[1] Chaos Computer Club online, http://www.ccc.de
Douglas A. Gwyn
> In article <366A0AF6...@null.net>,
> "Douglas A. Gwyn" <DAG...@null.net> wrote:
> > ke...@tgr.arg wrote:
> > > >> > What has happened to the case of the death of
> > > >> > Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
> > > >> > of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
> > > >> > of encryption methods or what?
> > > slanderous statement, to me.
> > The question *suggests as an explanation* that he was killed by the NSA.
> I have to agree with keaak. To sugguest that my English is even good
> enough for such suddle indeirection and motive is crazy. You are the
> are the one who is slanering me. But then maybe you lack total
> control of your brain and can't help jump to erronous conculsions.
Gee, I wonder if Boris was killed by David Scott?
I sure am glad you give me permission to make such accusations!
John Savard
part:
>His name is spelled with a 'c' at the end.
I was looking for other information on this tragedy, and found a post
to alt.true-crime, but it used the same spelling as David did.
John Savard
http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html
fungus
>
> dsc...@networkusa.net wrote:
>
> > What has happened to the case of the death of
>
> David,
> His name is spelled with a 'c' at the end.
>
> crypt-analytic skills, he rather was a true genius
> at exploiting protocol flaws in many systems involving
> smart-cards, particularly pay-tv access control
> systems used throughout Europe.
As I heard it, he was the one who figured out how to hack
German phone cards to give unlimited usage.
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB.
Patrick Juola
>On Sat, 05 Dec 1998 23:33:02 GMT, dsc...@networkusa.net wrote:
>
>>> dsc...@networkusa.net wrote:
>>> > What has happened to the case of the death of
>>> > of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
>>> > of encryption methods or what?
>>>
>>> progress. Since there has been no evidence reported that would
>>> suggest NSA involvement, nor any reason to think there would have
>>> been any such involvement, your suggestion amounts to slander.
>>>
>>
>> Since when is it a slander to ask a question. Your accussing me
>>however borders on slander.
>
>slanderous statement, to me.
Questions can be slanderous statements -- e.g. "Did you get your money
laundered from that cocaine deal yet?" The implication of this question,
that you're involved with shady drug deals, might very well be considered
slanderous in this context -- assuming of course that it *IS* false.
Of course, it can't actually be considered "slanderous" in this context
as I didn't say a word; it would be regarded as libelous.
-kitten
JPeschel
>Gee, I wonder if Boris was killed by David Scott?
>I sure am glad you give me permission to make such accusations!
You certainly chose a silly way of trying to drive home your
point. Scott has a reputation, I think, for doing nasty things,
but I don't believe anyone here has ever accused him of murder.
The NSA and other alphabet soup agencies, on the other hand,
are known, or, at least, rumored to have committed plenty
of nastiness including murder.
Joe
__________________________________________
Joe Peschel
D.O.E. SysWorks
http://members.aol.com/jpeschel/index.htm
__________________________________________
dsc...@networkusa.net
jpes...@aol.com (JPeschel) wrote:
> Douglas A. Gwyn <DAG...@null.net>writes:
>
> >Gee, I wonder if Boris was killed by David Scott?
> >I sure am glad you give me permission to make such accusations!
>
I have wondered about the same thing since there are many
David Scott's in government. It could be possible one of them
was involved.
> You certainly chose a silly way of trying to drive home your
> point. Scott has a reputation, I think, for doing nasty things,
I don't think I have a reputation for doing nasty things.
Unless you are some sort of prude who thinks a romp with a good
Nevada legal whore could be considered nasty by some people.
I think my reputation is for writting that unbreakable encryption
program that Bruce is afraid of (scott19u.zip).
> but I don't believe anyone here has ever accused him of murder.
> The NSA and other alphabet soup agencies, on the other hand,
> are known, or, at least, rumored to have committed plenty
> of nastiness including murder.
>
I have had several complaints that I murder the English
language.
> Joe
>
> __________________________________________
>
> Joe Peschel
> D.O.E. SysWorks
> http://members.aol.com/jpeschel/index.htm
> __________________________________________
>
>
Douglas A. Gwyn
> You certainly chose a silly way of trying to drive home your
> point. Scott has a reputation, I think, for doing nasty things,
If DScott can make unfounded suggestions about others,
then by the Golden Rule he ought to accept unfounded suggestions
being made about him.
> The NSA and other alphabet soup agencies, on the other hand,
> are known, or, at least, rumored to have committed plenty
> of nastiness including murder.
There is no reason to think the NSA engages in murder.
If you have evidence to the contrary, send it my way and I'll
do my best to see that the malfeasants are brought to justice.
dsc...@networkusa.net
> > You certainly chose a silly way of trying to drive home your
> > point. Scott has a reputation, I think, for doing nasty things,
> > but I don't believe anyone here has ever accused him of murder.
>
> If DScott can make unfounded suggestions about others,
> then by the Golden Rule he ought to accept unfounded suggestions
> being made about him.
>
I asked a question but you made a fasle slanderous statement
not me.
> > The NSA and other alphabet soup agencies, on the other hand,
> > are known, or, at least, rumored to have committed plenty
> > of nastiness including murder.
>
> There is no reason to think the NSA engages in murder.
> If you have evidence to the contrary, send it my way and I'll
> do my best to see that the malfeasants are brought to justice.
>
If you think the NSA has never directly or indirectly not ever
been involved in the assination or death of indivduals you
live in a dream world. If you think that you could do anything
to lead to a criminal prosicution of them you have been sadly
misled. Look at Clinton if any one in a low civil service position
did half the things he did or even had the appearance of doing
they would be out on there ass a long time ago. He will not be
convicted by the senate even though it seems obvious he should be
convicted. I base this on haaving had worked for uncle sam 26 years.
What do you base your ranting on.
JPeschel
>JPeschel wrote:
>> You certainly chose a silly way of trying to drive home your
>> point. Scott has a reputation, I think, for doing nasty things,
>> but I don't believe anyone here has ever accused him of murder.
>
>If DScott can make unfounded suggestions about others,
>then by the Golden Rule he ought to accept unfounded suggestions
>being made about him.
That's quite a strange interpetation of the Golden Rule!
>
>> The NSA and other alphabet soup agencies, on the other hand,
>> are known, or, at least, rumored to have committed plenty
>> of nastiness including murder.
>
>There is no reason to think the NSA engages in murder.
>If you have evidence to the contrary, send it my way and I'll
>do my best to see that the malfeasants are brought to justice.
Why sure you will!
Try accusing an individual, in print, of murder, and observe the
reaction of his lawyer. Compare that reaction to the reaction
of a governmental body that you could accuse of rumors
of nastiness including murder.
Guess who will sue you first for libel.
(The above is hypothetical -- don't really do that. Hate to see you
get sued.)
Douglas A. Gwyn
No, I asked the same sort of question but substituted your name for
that of NSA. If it is slandrous when your name fills in the blank,
then it is slandrous when NSA's name fills in the blank. You
previously denied the latter; you can't have it both ways.
> If you think the NSA has never directly or indirectly not ever
> been involved in the assination or death of indivduals you
> live in a dream world. If you think that you could do anything
> to lead to a criminal prosicution of them you have been sadly
> misled. ... I base this on haaving had worked for uncle sam 26 years.
> What do you base your ranting on.
I'm not ranting. I have the means both to find out what the Agency is
doing and to start proceedings against criminals within the system.
If you really have *evidence* of an assassination, present it!
Frankly, I don't think you have any, in which case, who is the one who
is actually ranting?
Douglas A. Gwyn
> Why sure you will!
Sure I will; I've done it before.
JPeschel
>Sure I will; I've done it before.
What was the result of your last best effort to see that the malfeasants were
brought to justice?
Douglas A. Gwyn
> What was the result of your last best effort to see that the malfeasants were
> brought to justice?
Investigation found that the accusation was without basis and I
concurred.
dsc...@networkusa.net
> > I asked a question but you made a fasle slanderous statement
> > not me.
>
> No, I asked the same sort of question but substituted your name for
> that of NSA. If it is slandrous when your name fills in the blank,
> then it is slandrous when NSA's name fills in the blank. You
> previously denied the latter; you can't have it both ways.
>
You did not ask the same question with just my name in it. Besides
others or are not fond of me pointed out your mistake so it is not
just my interpatation.
> > If you think the NSA has never directly or indirectly not ever
> > been involved in the assination or death of indivduals you
> > live in a dream world. If you think that you could do anything
> > to lead to a criminal prosicution of them you have been sadly
> > misled. ... I base this on haaving had worked for uncle sam 26 years.
> > What do you base your ranting on.
>
> I'm not ranting. I have the means both to find out what the Agency is
> doing and to start proceedings against criminals within the system.
> If you really have *evidence* of an assassination, present it!
> Frankly, I don't think you have any, in which case, who is the one who
> is actually ranting?
>
I doubt seriously if you have the faintous idea how the U.S. conducts
black projects. Hell we can't even kick a president out for making a mockery
of his solem oath to protect the constitution. What would a judge say to
me in court if I promised to tell the truth just like the president I would
be thrown in jail. What the president is teaching out kids is that only fools
tell the truth in court.
JPeschel
>Investigation found that the accusation was without basis and I
>concurred.
Some details, please.
JPeschel
>No, I asked the same sort of question but substituted your name for
>that of NSA. If it is slandrous when your name fills in the blank,
>then it is slandrous when NSA's name fills in the blank. You
>previously denied the latter; you can't have it both ways.
No, one statement would likely be judged fair comment about
a government agency, the other is potentially libelous.
Derek Bell
> You did not ask the same question with just my name in it. Besides
>others or are not fond of me pointed out your mistake so it is not
>just my interpatation.
To quote your original post:
:What has happened to the case of the death of
:Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
:of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
:of encryption methods or what?
To quote Doug's post:
:Gee, I wonder if Boris was killed by David Scott?
:I sure am glad you give me permission to make such accusations!
Now what are you arguing about, David? I see Doug Gwyn pointing out
an inconsistency in your behaviour.
Derek
--
Derek Bell db...@maths.tcd.ie | Socrates would have loved
WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html| usenet.
PGP: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/key.asc | - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
Derek Bell
>>concurred.
>Some details, please.
Maybe those covered by the Official Secrets Act, or its equivalent?
Patrick Juola
JPeschel <jpes...@aol.com> wrote:
>>"Douglas A. Gwyn" <DAG...@null.net> writes:
>
>>Investigation found that the accusation was without basis and I
>>concurred.
>
>Some details, please.
Surely if investigation found that the accusation was without basis,
then providing details of the accusation may verge on libelous.
Not that I'm not curious myself, of course. But I can certainly
understand Mr. Gwyn's reluctance to present the details.
-kitten
Markus Kuhn
|> What has happened to the case of the death of
|> Boris Floriciz was he killed by the NSA or one
|> of its shadow groups to surpress his knowledge
|> of encryption methods or what?
Boris' last name is actually written Floricic (last letter is
a C, not a Z, some US press agency got this wrong).
I have known Boris Floricic since around 1994. Boris was not
really an expert in cryptanalysis. His knowledge of cryptology
was roughly at the level described in Bruce Schneier's Applied
Cryptography. His real field of expertise was hardware security.
We was very skilled in extracting and manipulating protected
software from microcontrollers, smartcards, etc. He was also very
skilled in developing tiny lowest-cost embedded systems and he produced
numerous neat gadgets related to civilian cryptographic security
systems. He was very active in reverse engineering European pay-TV
conditional access systems and he was to my knowledge the first
and most successful hacker who reverse engineered and compromised
the German and Croatian pre-paid phone card system. He also knew a
few very interesting tricks related to European mobile phones and
pagers and broke numerous other commercial security systems, which I
better do not mention here, because it could cause really serious
problems for their manufacturers and operators. His master's
thesis was the design of a neat lowest-cost plug&play ISDN
encryption module, which he planned to make openly available as
a free design.
The suggestion that the NSA killed him is *very* far fetched.
Apart from may be the ISDN phone (and may others have been doing
similar projects without being killed under strange circumstances!),
he didn't do anything as far as I know that should have been of
any concern to military agencies. He was usually more interested in
bypassing payment mechanisms than in message secrecy. It is IMHO
orders of magnitude more likely that he for instance got in contact
with some brutal organized crime boneheads dealing with pirate phone
or pay-TV smartcards and that something bad happend there, than that the
US government considered him to be a threat. But that is just
my personal educated guess. I don't know anything more about
the ongoing police investigation than what the press reports.
Markus
--
Markus G. Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge, UK
Email: mkuhn at acm.org, WWW: <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/>
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca
: The suggestion that the NSA killed him is *very* far fetched.
: It is IMHO
: orders of magnitude more likely that he for instance got in contact
: with some brutal organized crime boneheads dealing with pirate phone
: or pay-TV smartcards and that something bad happend there, than that the
: US government considered him to be a threat.
I absolutely agree with you. Of course, as the NSA operates in secrecy,
and as it did become involved in some dubious domestic surveillance
activities, and as it allowed itself to become identified with the
infamous "Clipper Chip", I'm afraid they can expect to be the target of
suspicion even when it is entirely undeserved.
John Savard