ASLEC Cipher Test Piece,

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austin obyrne

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Oct 30, 2021, 12:35:54 PM10/30/21
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Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .
The sample simulates Eve having intercepted this quantity of ciphertext and she is trying to decrypt it by statistical means and indeed by any means.

The reader cannot claim any help whatever that Eve would not reasonably be expected to possess.

This sample is absolutely honest and has not been tinkered with in anyway.
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5372359 2449216 8428570 7628700 5631565 8323605 9828863 6216235
9627932 9804929 7127541 9228537 8728475 9831896 3029336 6567329
5816510 6769825 9703169 6803925 2528702 6728751 5584261 2607960
8842814 6216434 5611936 8899251 5739942 3529086 6529014 4767601
9638599 8793197 3516416 2049275 6268480 2579054 5728685 8729159
6782600 2575913 5483941 4716497 4703322 7306145 9712856 5828601
9832916 7715702 2423447 8846734 9816906 5840776 8696850 6231694
5728708 6529474 3416323 5826767 5644365 5717103 2403176 7823648
8418176 2428569 9828682 2101626 9792517 5681412 2516439 5716007
6625828 8024148 6528385 9828675 8365016 6008287 8732214 2417297
5725384 6425016 5780392 6528418 9828759 6141875 5829048 8746622
9816477 8534263 6469904 4742637 9529340 8628768 2791531 6563614
7370777 5716432 5704090 8875507 2646436 5928381 8628691 5581258
4874945 8710254 5736417 9524480 5580692 9135055 5728940 9828610
5638363 6907050 8775146 6516957 8692403 7596195 9832767 5728350
9828427 5626336 4832432 9777654 2516814 9784968 6503122 4833080
6528755 8928515 7367734 5839475 8668208 3218674 6488236 9751543
5754886 2428610 5629400 6511059 5733335 9113372 6516509 6266111
7540828 4893158 5729045 8928640 7328065 8850840 8758889 3516874
3431217 9464658 2529191 2428707 9831206 6492403 5765997 3246009
9817015 6914383 4445290 7267342 6828661 8728671 8379946 2569427
6708231 3216549 5549140 7617746 7423781 6828969 9829074 9740299
5818085 8789666 5417277 5906037 8719035 9821004 6528573 7628861
5397961 2448184 9894423 8717213 5844622 8517883 9622605 4728254
9328600 5715390 6828926 9438852 8916200 2408630 7480804 2462829
6528349 7629210 5363741 5796548 8627903 8716999 9727637 6488696
3261939 5829440 6528468 7408759 2536454 8810771 9816603 2218987
8628207 6412977 6669631 9229250 5671341 5791061 6427222 2516583
4928502 8547824 4852819 4828573 9528427 6472811 6885749 8730841
5716109 5824211 8560284 6649924 5729007 9828534 5716097 2427910
7745501 5716391 4661106 9716749 9915313 6528447 7628623 6204284
4939802 9840107 4716254 5715325 6529063 9515511 2528266 9828669
5462541 5919580 6563985 3216818 5391281 7611934 4719903 5728465
9829438 5718512 8837177 8428133 5724440 5719851 9527851 2614892
2628325 7428359 9814474 2530160 8329325 6517671 5723691 7822666
5411982 2437898 9828658 9270612 6147614 7945112 2416577 2147381
8682802 5764200 6829104 7628613 8620450 5618835 9838159 5716626
8719020 7464960 5561651 5428357 9836538 4912915 9822705 6656913
5316881 2502870 8902699 7540901 6828368 5628318 6192999 2461589
6551136 5717025 4693474 8669959 9379314 6828610 6529008 8096331
6544970 6825997 8716464 5611243 9802022 6541883 8728313 6528593
9482069 9879490 7879638 2416236 2502525 9821883 5820197 6828200
7629402 7324034 4819014 5631995 3518122 2423185 7564115 6265893
5928568 8928377 9396012 4912922 6734094 9716515 5379549 8727773
5409271 6533684 9828506 2369746 5829609 8970194 4716530 7946097
7827739 9516583 7228212 6536053 2414424 6520197 10077267 2116565
4577307 9636604 6845591 5828329 7628694 9415480 5928107 10105780
9716581 6404444 7502006 3367168 5428367 7628605 5586063 6761896
9833816 2416187 8725123 9773013 6547164 5728352 8728478 8246092
10009745 6562911 7916651 6793042 7678377 6608678 4728399 9829421
4703302 6840586 7673794 3516559 6468179 9819912 4719059 4728973
6528953 5625008 5835706 8750478 6518364 9813351 9677595 8596496
5728552 6528397 7318918 5035458 10080857 9816639 2324080 8723253
2520791 6828266 5428539 4802236 4738505 6730401 6516682 2423000
9476723 3680521 6928517 7628656 8715461 4728904 9826729 9819740
6827949 4477220 5796277 3528267 7628655 6183769 9856003 8847435
9816998 5652918 8723250 1418210 5728412 9828268 8647842 3276426
8739457 3216265 5715659 8727631 6416363 9828394 9828172 7411252
2136327 7639009 2516429 6499290 9611105 7027249 5428514 9828882
5402904 8737099 8821877 8716545 8885055 7620293 6222807 8728289
8728556 4503934 2712243 9832340 2416251 8724116 8651370 6624698
6428327 6828464 8393229 3255444 7936976 9216321 7415022 9299213
7455623 8729372 7628794 5067992 9869799 8737327 6516409 9602147
9683811 9575344 5428284 8428425 5618691 2574019 9254177 2417169
6350520 8185106 6332073 6228496 5429344 5401079 6846937 9452722
3416631 8514509 8681502 5735019 9528756 6530418 9699303 5745059
9829600 4816231 2587179 7463146 6733283 2428521 9828338 7203966
6683057 6820760 9516589 5632475 7752572 2466697 9529349 5628639
3195120 5752940 7847757 4716506 8717685 8715512 9518656 3929162
7628948 2281924 3410804 9839394 5723332 6108738 6292586 5832333
5128464 9828270 5703166 8543896 6846369 9816648 8530322 9286563
7858126 5428447 6829091 3462545 1482428 7339463 5842439 3527680
8377869 5464081 4829462 9329364 6185988 5681004 6681717 2416493
2286775 7531251 8519563 9728211 9830887 2415955 9824818 8854926
2516583 8295092 9584403 9553898 5428899 7629344 8648539 5786896
9847925 6216360 2414809 8703055 5451945 6428502 8728256 6392920
6640328 9831165 5716500 4724788 6704781 9844775 5728170 9828296
4671789 5982287 8769381 2416765 4800708 9744570 5765314 5728497
9828344 9803251 9839557 8740209 3517353 5906204 9817524 4722963
3429696 6728475 6148812 6611459 9846293 4716274 8717258 6482706
6855308 9528479 6729378 2516004 5427277 9844069 6116675 3223634
8724244 4814544 833275 8728419 5377998 6577293 9024844 8716518
5309516 7821529 6520676 4728773 10001632 7416261 9440051 7696322
2416772 6450679 7816697 9826507 3229430 7628467 4495131 2605020
9873670 2416701 6187400 7454155 4873070 4728384 7628459 9501805
5832006 9839007 6516248 9520255 9825892 8712486 9834280 9828677
7409590 2434388 6559507 2416350 9700618 8488284 6632757 6528457
7428379 9663471 2666351 5885539 7416684 4341360 8618776 6024011
2528437 7628381 9489696 6959890 9823544 7124258 4725013 7795251
5444002 6528317 9828863 6513322 8731018 9848299 3216677 6513351
7627478 5714883 5729215 6530578 4671674 5990486 9850088 6816868
2379326 6488982 2450875 5428240 7628131 4682272 2454282 6556449
5716499 4792451 9765066 2463081 8428391 6528261 8654058 9580082
9972441 6816739 6189488 7479432 5953508 8728488 8428162 4713222
2430198 7640572 2416370 6418620 9788000 2589197 9528752 6628260
6382926 4843213 9830549 4817029 6820836 9815719 9535236 5630377
8728954 8651839 2584222 7682308 5716733 9470029 8866121 6442250
5729158 7628216 7377185 8762407 9845674 9516345 6507798 8659569
2505699 2428114 8729860 7689545 4791225 9832652 3216366 5824439
9783223 9449917 5728432 7628326 2346402 6707324 9827536 8421821
5721239 8447544 6749763 2428374 9828345 4456184 6016132 6586896
4716589 4669457 9789749 3263246 2428257 8728086 4714324 6529504
9884926 2516565 9447054 9827779 1416473 8728003 7628212 6490816
5449533 9916569 9817027 1052372 7457280 4887244 4728205 8728472
5371881 6605147 7839143 8717627 5710957 8885024 6563894 5728111
7628169 2307150 9887290 8928805 4717463 4725767 6474210 9904363
3228726 6728208 5675326 2454625 10121909 3216823 5564152 9707702
8570956 2428417 6528165 7381701 9462571 6757927 5416846 6489710
9826515 8716539 5729244 8728252 3465747 9907024 7848774 9416703
3453808 8894846 2469971 3628831 9828449 8529020 3339714 6589008
8316479 3121305 8726608 9717500 2528025 8728362 5562123 7946717
7634288 6116365 7420537 8666888 2474070 9728851 9828338 6404682
9641078 8946639 4716376 9409032 6721685 5424127 5728101 8929096
8682942 6752291 6955312 6516649 3000996 7801939 4731528 5728156
7628191 2855143 6501542 9910380 7816598 6654628 7621975 3520150
5828366 8728164 5416208 6527848 9830880 6516368 5426521 8221393
7419048 2428804 7828675 3506200 5737365 9675975 4716771 5792007
8685942 2478056 5728620 6528169 6488958 5452780 9830330 8416429
5924359 6500311 8725137 4728800 8928024 9507630 6834437 8781761
9517987 6477094 9648143 8896136 4728204 6528342 5230343 4956362
7974419 5716721 9218906 9488862 5664893 9528337 8628327 2349515
2426900 7834733 4718467 6219996 9795106 6835946 4828304 8728185
9716959 5427325 9966671 5716747 5603955 7625783 5413746 6537009
9828348 5392840 6045993 8679377 6516424 9389414 6326778 10135890
2428379 9827970 4712646 6538547 7650943 2416881 2406847 7825215
5707841 5946927 7828340 6431807 5939087 9662084 5719619 5685489
7827203 8416927 5428023 8728392 6463353 5494622 9916958 4717496
9768549 6702655 5932885 4727981 8928311 5791383 8553852 7850249
6416566 2907430 8536401 2541993 2728346 9829032 5661120 6774545
6729557 3521500 2419136 7814936 8727134 9528961 8928052 5411437
6836320 7627171 8716526 8428692 9828135 9515579 5728454 9828363
4698296 5989146 8893121 2916838 5160883 6722885 3813611 6834419
9828209 6443560 5773934 6972213 8416801 4469511 6723129 9118798
6527994 7828211 5263933 6793334 6580056 8716628 6450367 8919613
8721768 9527989 8729287 6488190 8771154 7546455 4717524 5713211
9650040 8826444 6528163 8730860 2393696 5459415 6790723 6517205
5688884 9818974 4724180 5828445 5628001 8870839 9577348 9913367
7416696 4740497 8585829 9551718 2530842 6729322 7546652 6586803
8769081 9517563 5686656 9778040 8459606 2428250 8629365 2415253
5726251 7950935 4716897 5693717 8920384 3619661 3534513 9828018
1373127 2478060 7644915 5716488 6510555 9643697 5955231 9528296
7830215 9190587 1455524 9836692 8717489 6519031 9820494 2421135
5429602 9827944 6506791 3542913 7659701 4716510 2491819 8545115
5560789 5428289 9828981 5712318 6531293 7765484 5817240 2533199
9641144 4847836 2428330 6532967 6809618 5733636 8730091 9716443
2425884 7594577 5757287 9528712 9827992 2367458 8784845 9842984
6817524 6511520 8513971 5909748 6528260 7629244 5682171 4756140
9832770 5717733 4718903 9792851 2471046 2528229 6528268 2866666
6568906 6799834 7916844 4622045 6412800 5508351 9528169 9827937
6514867 6529244 8748412 8418958 5710269 8916046 5730179 8928543
6529093 9712051 5430678 9852800 2416811 5563365 6300469 6339589
2528336 6528271 7355903 5771137 9841712 2517298 6913656 8468380
9849652 6828307 6828270 6429053 2567802 8732817 7716472 6525601
9828181 9814898 8729148 8728919 5625655 5825511 8743610 8416602
5816505 9827700 3514666 2729465 8728271 7268394 6688488 9879112
9117509 2369678 9463912 9376267 4728322 6537532 6510169 9523985
8931233 4716427 2725617 7604894 4729941 6528272 9828264 9794395
5749671 9789238 5416826 2378520 7621521 8720480 5728288 7988385
3216419 6321137 8926862 9516875 6528220 7628836 8715248 6828210
9065990 6516431 6189651 10135704 7416879 6222971 5427827 9725981
6910049 7628219 8629524 5813992 9917388 6216590 8635276 8218739
8763985 5828194 7628977 9467741 2462297 7648041 6816639 6518320
6360451 4808881 2528129 7628511 8672693 9875961 9831813 9516938
2426789 7566213 7446204 5728216 7628664 3187296 6869552 8734898
5418420 5723750 8727836 6675109 5569260 7629085 4606634 5849906
8743460 9817373 2425398 9762021 5741809 6828921 7629124 5698699
5943210 10085084 6516869 4661376 7605865 5738644 2527977 9829540
8708114 9534973 7645041 9516839 4722241 9808339 5424518 6828500
8737612 8710573 5428201 8779701 6817454 5915436 9674999 4745746
2428010 9828932 9789206 5744715 6535145 2417628 4720458

Austin O' Byrne

Richard Heathfield

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Oct 30, 2021, 12:43:53 PM10/30/21
to
On 30/10/2021 17:35, austin obyrne wrote:
> Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .

You forgot to include a working implementation.

Oh, but of course, you can't, can you? You haven't got one.

> The sample simulates Eve having intercepted this quantity of ciphertext and she is trying to decrypt it by statistical means and indeed by any means.

Those are your rules, and they don't apply. Eve doesn't play by your
rules. Eve plays by Eve's rules. Eve will almost certainly wait until
she's accumulated more material.

> The reader cannot claim any help whatever that Eve would not reasonably be expected to possess.

Well, to be fair, Eve won't get any more material because no Alice in
their right mind would trust *one* message to this crap, let alone *two*.

> This sample is absolutely honest and has not been tinkered with in anyway.

Yeah, right.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

MM

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Oct 30, 2021, 12:49:37 PM10/30/21
to
On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 17:35:54 UTC+1, austin obyrne wrote:
> This sample is absolutely honest and has not been tinkered with in anyway.

Prove it. You are a habitual liar and cheat, so why should anyone go to the
trouble of helping you? Yes, this is help.

Without knowing that at least Bob can read it, this is a waste of time.

A decrypt by you is insufficient. You need to PROVE that this can be done
by someone other than you.

M
--

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 1:04:15 PM10/30/21
to
To do that, he'd need to trust someone with a working copy of his
program; but I don't think he can, because I don't think he *has* a
working copy of his program.

Max

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 1:48:09 PM10/30/21
to
On 30.10.21 18:35, austin obyrne wrote:
> Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .
> The sample simulates Eve having intercepted this quantity of ciphertext and she is trying to decrypt it by statistical means and indeed by any means.
>
> The reader cannot claim any help whatever that Eve would not reasonably be expected to possess.
>

Yawn. Any(!) cryptosystem out there that is deemed to be "secure", is
secure even if Eve knows *everything* about the cipher, except the key
for the current message. Keep in mind, the "key" is everything that is
not publicly known aka known to Eve.

So your key is the actual key plus the description of the algorithm/the
implementation.

Your ciphertext has about 15 kB. I doubt the amount of secret data (key
plus algorithm/implementation) is (much) smaller than that. Thus, you
might just as well use something like an OTP.

[...]

MM

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 2:23:10 PM10/30/21
to
On Saturday, 30 October 2021 at 18:48:09 UTC+1, Max wrote:
> Your ciphertext has about 15 kB. I doubt the amount of secret data (key
> plus algorithm/implementation) is (much) smaller than that. Thus, you
> might just as well use something like an OTP.

I've looked closely at his Ada programs, and rewritten them in a
more idiomatic style.

The message is 1 printable ASCII character per triple of supplied
ciphertext numbers. This gives a ciphergram expansion of 20-30 times.

Depending on when/if you get an answer, the key may be 33 or
thereabouts scrambling parameters. These are applied with a
laughably weak mixing process to several lists of baked-in constants
that are used in the cipher. It could be that these baked-in constants
are also part of the key, but to date they are public knowledge and do
not need changing. He has changed his mind often enough that this
is unclear.

He also makes surreptitious changes to his code. This makes it unclear
how his purported communications partner(s) are able to decrypt
the ciphergrams. In effect the whole program could be the key, specially
when he's running the stupid challenges.

If Bob can't decrypt, then why bother?

M
--

Rich

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 3:01:29 PM10/30/21
to
Max <maxt...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Your ciphertext has about 15 kB. I doubt the amount of secret data (key
> plus algorithm/implementation) is (much) smaller than that. Thus, you
> might just as well use something like an OTP.

Well, the "secret data (key plus algo)" is the Ada source, which is
probably tens of megabytes of duplicative Ada source. As the "key" in
AOB's versions is hard coded into the source (i.e., the 'case'
statement snippet I posted to Chris from Shuttlepads encoded the "key"
in the order of the individual arms. ASLEC is likely similar, in that
the key is the source, so "the key" is likely many megabytes.

But as AOB has not posted any code for anyone to look at, we can only
guess current state from prior code postings, and all those prior code
postings point to megabytes of duplicative Ada source as the key.

Further, as there has not even been a coherent description offered, we
can only guess as to other aspects based on prior variants. All the
"vector" variants output three coordinates per input character, so one
input character would likely become this much output data in ASLEC:
"9827086 9681778 7343610". That is twenty-three bytes out for one byte
in (and in a few spots, the one of the number is eight digits, for
twenty-four bytes out for one byte in.

So it looks like also we have the characteristic AOB ciphertext
expansion going on.

So he put in a snippet of text of about 667 characters, and got out a
about 15kB of ciphertext. Terrible given that AES manages only one
IV's worth of size expansion when used in CBC mode, and provides better
security, and an external key.

Rich

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 3:04:47 PM10/30/21
to
MM <mrvm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> He also makes surreptitious changes to his code. This makes it
> unclear how his purported communications partner(s) are able to
> decrypt the ciphergrams. In effect the whole program could be the
> key, specially when he's running the stupid challenges.

He's also been known to make changes to his code *during* his
challenges in a sad attempt to cut any breaks being published.

I believe you said he did this to you on one of the early challenges,
or was it Richard H. who was so victimized?

MM

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 3:21:17 PM10/30/21
to
That was me. Aug 2013 or thereabouts. The boast of the day was
that "two small numbers" were sufficient to secure the ciphertext.

The challenge was agreed and posted, and from the get-go, it was
bad faith. He'd made quite a few changes to the cipher's constants,
contrary to his promise, "to protect the cipher" in his words.

This made a mockery of the "two small numbers" boast. It also
shredded what little credibility he had.

"Two small numbers" was actually three numbers, but they
amounted to two as a pair of them were always subtracted from
each other. I had an Ada program to brute force that cipher, very
little sophistication was needed.

M
--

Max

unread,
Oct 30, 2021, 3:57:43 PM10/30/21
to
On 30.10.21 21:01, Rich wrote:
> Max <maxt...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> Your ciphertext has about 15 kB. I doubt the amount of secret data (key
>> plus algorithm/implementation) is (much) smaller than that. Thus, you
>> might just as well use something like an OTP.
>
> Well, the "secret data (key plus algo)" is the Ada source, which is
> probably tens of megabytes of duplicative Ada source. As the "key" in
> AOB's versions is hard coded into the source (i.e., the 'case'
> statement snippet I posted to Chris from Shuttlepads encoded the "key"
> in the order of the individual arms. ASLEC is likely similar, in that
> the key is the source, so "the key" is likely many megabytes.

Spoken from an algorithmic information theory point of view, we would
have to consider the length of the "shortest possible" program that can
produce the ciphertext as its information value (Kolmogorov complexity).
So bad programming doesn't count ;-). Still, that should be more than a
few hundred bytes.

>
> But as AOB has not posted any code for anyone to look at, we can only
> guess current state from prior code postings, and all those prior code
> postings point to megabytes of duplicative Ada source as the key
>
> Further, as there has not even been a coherent description offered, we
> can only guess as to other aspects based on prior variants.

The last weeks I learned the hard way how hard it is to reverse engineer
even a toy cipher from just some plaintext-key-ciphertext triplets. As
it's not just about getting the algorithm right, but also all those
mapping and encoding steps that have no cryptographic value as such, it
is rather painful. Yet, I can't think of any real world scenario where
the algorithm is unknown. So this is just an exercise in futility.

> All the
> "vector" variants output three coordinates per input character, so one
> input character would likely become this much output data in ASLEC:
> "9827086 9681778 7343610". That is twenty-three bytes out for one byte
> in (and in a few spots, the one of the number is eight digits, for
> twenty-four bytes out for one byte in.
>
> So it looks like also we have the characteristic AOB ciphertext
> expansion going on.
>
> So he put in a snippet of text of about 667 characters, and got out a
> about 15kB of ciphertext. Terrible given that AES manages only one
> IV's worth of size expansion when used in CBC mode, and provides better
> security, and an external key.
>

Oh boy. 667 characters? 600 bytes? That puts the poor fellow who falls
for this in Zodiac-Killer-letter territory.

Colin

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Oct 30, 2021, 9:56:42 PM10/30/21
to
the 2nd character = 'h'
the 9th character = 's'
the 24th character = ' '


Richard Heathfield

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Oct 31, 2021, 1:32:15 AM10/31/21
to
Interesting. In that light, I'd expect the 3rd character to be 'e' and
the 1st to be 'T'.

MM

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Oct 31, 2021, 4:41:27 AM10/31/21
to
Pner gb funer gur qrgnvyf bs lbhe zrgubq?

M
--

Richard Heathfield

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Oct 31, 2021, 5:05:42 AM10/31/21
to
On 31/10/2021 08:41, MM wrote:
> Pner gb funer gur qrgnvyf bs lbhe zrgubq?

V jbaqre vs ur'f whfg hfvat gur byq xrl? Orpnhfr gung jbhyq or uvynevbhf.

Chris M. Thomasson

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 5:09:48 AM10/31/21
to
On 10/31/2021 2:05 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 08:41, MM wrote:
>> Pner gb funer gur qrgnvyf bs lbhe zrgubq?
>
> V jbaqre vs ur'f whfg hfvat gur byq xrl? Orpnhfr gung jbhyq or uvynevbhf.
>

Ur orggre abg or hfvat gur byq xrl

Wow.

MM

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 6:37:34 AM10/31/21
to
On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 09:05:42 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 08:41, MM wrote:
> > Pner gb funer gur qrgnvyf bs lbhe zrgubq?
> V jbaqre vs ur'f whfg hfvat gur byq xrl? Orpnhfr gung jbhyq or uvynevbhf.

vgf zbfg yvxryl gung ur'f whfg qvpxvat jvgu gur fpenzoyvat cnenzrgref naq cbfg-fpenzoyvat gur erfhyg

M
--

Rich

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 11:33:08 AM10/31/21
to
Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 08:41, MM wrote:
>> Pner gb funer gur qrgnvyf bs lbhe zrgubq?
>
> V jbaqre vs ur'f whfg hfvat gur byq xrl? Orpnhfr gung jbhyq or uvynevbhf.
>

Npghnyyl gung jbhyq or *fb* NBO gb erhfr gur byq xrl cnenzrgref gung
unq nyernql orra oebxra sbe uvf arj 'guvat'. Naq vg jbhyq tb gb fubj
jung lbh, naq bguref, unir fnvq bire naq bire. Gung gur rkgerzr
qvssvphygl bs n "xrl punatr" zrnaf Nyvpr naq Obo jba'g punatr vg bsgra
(vs rire). Vs gur nhgube uvzfrys pna'g or obgurerq gb punatr vg gura
Nyvpr naq Obo jvyy arire punatr vg.

DaleT

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 1:01:29 PM10/31/21
to
On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 11:35:54 AM UTC-5, austin obyrne wrote:
> Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .
> The sample simulates Eve having intercepted this quantity of ciphertext and she is trying to decrypt it by statistical means and indeed by any means.
>
> The reader cannot claim any help whatever that Eve would not reasonably be expected to possess.
>
> This sample is absolutely honest and has not been tinkered with in anyway.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 9827086 9681778 7343610 6543976 8714739 6219192 9827246 5413762
> 5427340 8727481 3169833 8474945 9859805 6514808 5403260 7226813
> 9112694 5728592 8627363 5066394 9687580 9345279 6514854 4706141
> 7256052 9889497 6527157 6836744 5408090 5423069 9895801 6814913
> 9765793 9604164 7526032 6524179 8724263 6492178 9245870 8785230

Your worked example of only one ASCIi character is helpful but leaves
questions. You have now provided a lengthy cyphertext. It is assumed
that you followed the exact procedure shown in the example.

Questions :

1. you choose the coeficients of a vector to start the process.
Does that vector stay the same throughout the encrypting process?.

2. Tou cycle through 12 variations of using V0, V1, V2, V3..
Will that stay as shown in the example and continue in
the order shown throughout the encrypting process.

3. You add a change of origin vector at the end before
publishing the message. Does that vector stay the same throughout
the message or change for each encrypted character.

4. Your recent release looks like 9 or 10 digits for each vector
element,,,,approximately 27 digits for each character....
Is that correct?

austin obyrne

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 1:49:58 PM10/31/21
to
-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is something that Eve cannot ask

MM

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 1:57:01 PM10/31/21
to
On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 17:49:58 UTC, austin obyrne wrote:
> This is something that Eve cannot ask

... but someone taking an interest in your cipher can. You should
be able to explain this without revealing any key material. Just give
example constants instead of the ones used to encrypt.

M
--

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 2:48:05 PM10/31/21
to
Bollocks. It's the algorithm.

Kerckhoffs's principle

"It should not require secrecy, and it should not be a problem if it
falls into enemy hands;" - Auguste Kerckhoffs 1883.

The principle holds that a cryptosystem should be secure, even if
everything about the system, except the key, is public knowledge.

"We assume that an adversary has at his disposal the machine."

"The standard assumption [at NSA] was that serial number 1 of any new
device was delivered to the Kremlin."

"principle applies beyond codes and ciphers to security systems in
general: every secret creates a potential failure point. Secrecy, in
other words, is a prime cause of brittleness—and therefore something
likely to make a system prone to catastrophic collapse. Conversely,
openness provides ductility." - Bruce Schneier

"The long history of cryptography and cryptoanalysis has shown time and
time again that open discussion and analysis of algorithms exposes
weaknesses not thought of by the original authors, and thereby leads to
better and more secure algorithms." - Steve Bellovin

"To make the problem mathematically tractable we shall assume that the
enemy knows the system being used." - Claude Shannon, "Communication
Theory of Secrecy Systems".

MM

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 2:51:27 PM10/31/21
to
On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 18:48:05 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> Bollocks. It's the algorithm.

If you don't know yourself what the key is, then this would be difficult
to separate.

If you can't separate it, you can't explain it.

AOB *should* be able to explain, yet he can't.

M
--

Max

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 3:11:10 PM10/31/21
to
On 31.10.21 19:48, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 31/10/2021 17:49, austin obyrne wrote:
>> On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 17:01:29 UTC, DaleT wrote:
>>> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 11:35:54 AM UTC-5, austin obyrne wrote:

[...]

>>
>> This is something that Eve  cannot ask
>
> Bollocks. It's the algorithm.

Well, if it has to be kept secret, it's by definition part of the key,
isn't it? So we have a huge key (much longer than the plaintext afaIct)
and a very simple (public) algorithm (basically the high-level
descriptions scattered all over this board).

I wonder what this reminds me of...

[...]

Chris M. Thomasson

unread,
Oct 31, 2021, 5:13:51 PM10/31/21
to
Let say, fully compiled aob_program_0 has its secret key baked in.

Hopefully aob_program_1 has a new secret key.

Actually, I am wondering how those constants interact with the overall
logic, well I need to wade through the dank swamp. Can he break is own
program with certain numbers? Say he replaced all of his constants with
random numbers, in range [0...255]? Would his program just byte the
proverbial dust?

Its Halloween, and I do not feel like melting my brain today, so to speak.

Btw, happy Halloween!

https://fractalforums.org/gallery/1612-311021102859.jpeg

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 1:57:07 AM11/1/21
to
AOB has, by refusing to disclose details of the algorithm when asked,
effectively knocked over the vector cryptography king on his side of the
board. There is nothing worth analysing.

austin obyrne

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 3:59:31 AM11/1/21
to
Preparing the excuses already.

You have been given a full description of the algorithm in my website.

You have given a worked example.

You have given many descriptive posts in the daily postings to sci.crypt.

You have been gven an ecryption/decryption model.

What you are asking for is the explicit keys the entities used in composing thia test.

You won't be getting that

You will no doubt claim another BUST.

Get on with and stop whingeing

This certainly is not a bust but you will probably claim that it is.

AOB

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 4:13:31 AM11/1/21
to
On 01/11/2021 07:59, austin obyrne wrote:
> On Monday, 1 November 2021 at 05:57:07 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 31/10/2021 18:51, MM wrote:
>>> On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 18:48:05 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> Bollocks. It's the algorithm.
>>>
>>> If you don't know yourself what the key is, then this would be difficult
>>> to separate.
>>>
>>> If you can't separate it, you can't explain it.
>>>
>>> AOB *should* be able to explain, yet he can't.
>> AOB has, by refusing to disclose details of the algorithm when asked,
>> effectively knocked over the vector cryptography king on his side of the
>> board. There is nothing worth analysing.
>
> Preparing the excuses already.

Are you now! Well, that shows foresight.

>
> You have been given a full description of the algorithm in my website.

Then you should have had no difficulty in answering the query from
DaleT, and yet you don't know your own algorithm to be able to answer
his query.

> You have given a worked example.
>
> You have given many descriptive posts in the daily postings to sci.crypt.
>
> You have been gven an ecryption/decryption model.
>
> What you are asking for is the explicit keys the entities used in composing thia test.

No, I'm not. I didn't ask you spit, because I know it's pointless.
Someone else - not me - asked you how encryption proceeds. If his
question strayed into the key, it is a sign that your algorithm
description is unclear and needs rewriting.

> You won't be getting that
>
> You will no doubt claim another BUST.

No, I've already busted vector crypto (as have MM, wizz, and colin) so I
won't be bothering this time around.

> Get on with

You don't get to decide how I spend my time. I see no point in using it
attacking an algorithm that has been laid waste so often and where the
author is incapable of answering basic questions about the algorithm.

> and stop whingeing

Charming; quite, quite charming.

> This certainly is not a bust but you will probably claim that it is.

No; why would I bother to attack a cryptosystem that even the author
doesn't trust enough to explain its algorithm to those who ask? There is
nothing worth attacking. And since you never take any notice of the
fruits of this free work people do for you, why bother putting out
challenges at all? Why not just claim information-theoretical security
and be done with it? Or have you already done that (again)?

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 4:52:24 AM11/1/21
to
On 31/10/2021 17:01, DaleT wrote:
> On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 11:35:54 AM UTC-5, austin obyrne wrote:
>> Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .

<snip>

> Your worked example of only one ASCIi character is helpful but leaves
> questions. You have now provided a lengthy cyphertext. It is assumed
> that you followed the exact procedure shown in the example.
>
> Questions :
>
> 1. you choose the coeficients of a vector to start the process.
> Does that vector stay the same throughout the encrypting process?.

You are not allowed to know how this part of the algorithm works. It's a
secret, in a clear violation of Kerckhoffs's Principle.

> 2. Tou cycle through 12 variations of using V0, V1, V2, V3..
> Will that stay as shown in the example and continue in
> the order shown throughout the encrypting process.

You are not allowed to know how this part of the algorithm works. It's a
secret, in another clear violation of Kerckhoffs's Principle.

> 3. You add a change of origin vector at the end before
> publishing the message. Does that vector stay the same throughout
> the message or change for each encrypted character.

You are not allowed to know how this part of the algorithm works. It's a
secret, in another clear violation of Kerckhoffs's Principle.

> 4. Your recent release looks like 9 or 10 digits for each vector
> element,,,,approximately 27 digits for each character....
> Is that correct?

You are not allowed to know how this part of the algorithm works. It's a
secret, in another clear violation of Kerckhoffs's Principle.

austin obyrne

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 8:34:56 AM11/1/21
to
Not so - there is no breach breach of Kerchoffs Principle .

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 8:43:20 AM11/1/21
to
> Not so - there is no breach breach of Kerchoffs Principle .

Bollocks. He asks some simple questions about how the algorithm works -
and we note that he did not ask for the key - but you say it's a secret.
Bye-bye Kerckhoffs!

Note that you could have answered his question making clear which data
are key dependent and how those parts are used to continue processing,
but instead you refused to answer. Explaining how a key is combined with
plaintext should not impact security. For example, in OTP we can explain
that C = P XOR K - that's the entire algorithm! - without detracting one
jot from OTP's perfect security.

DaleT

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 9:32:20 AM11/1/21
to
Thank you. You have, in effect, answered all the questions;

Rich

unread,
Nov 1, 2021, 9:56:17 AM11/1/21
to
austin obyrne <ao40...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 1 November 2021 at 05:57:07 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 31/10/2021 18:51, MM wrote:
>> > On Sunday, 31 October 2021 at 18:48:05 UTC, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> >> Bollocks. It's the algorithm.
>> >
>> > If you don't know yourself what the key is, then this would be difficult
>> > to separate.
>> >
>> > If you can't separate it, you can't explain it.
>> >
>> > AOB *should* be able to explain, yet he can't.
>> AOB has, by refusing to disclose details of the algorithm when
>> asked, effectively knocked over the vector cryptography king on his
>> side of the board. There is nothing worth analysing.
>
> Preparing the excuses already.
>
> You have been given a full description of the algorithm in my
> website.

Bollocks. The referenced website contains a half-arsed, confused,
description of something /vectorish/. But it most certianly does not
contain a full description of anything.

> You have given a worked example.

Nowhere is there any coherent worked example.

> You have given many descriptive posts in the daily postings to
> sci.crypt.

Correction, we have seen many posts that are best described as "the
ramblings of a madman" -- but they are hardly descriptive of anything
other than your mental state.

> You have been gven an ecryption/decryption model.

Nowhere does an encryption/decryption model exist -- likely it does not
even exist on your computer, and if it does not exist there, it
certianly can not exist for us here.

> What you are asking for is the explicit keys the entities used in
> composing thia test.

Nope. One user asked for more information on how the algorithm worked,
precisely because whatever it is you think porports to be a description
on your website is so inadequate that he could not fully understand
the algorithm from that description.

Colin

unread,
Nov 12, 2021, 8:37:30 PM11/12/21
to
What reason is there to believe....
_^______^______________^_______

Chris M. Thomasson

unread,
Nov 13, 2021, 1:55:59 AM11/13/21
to
Because AOB says so? ;^)

Colin

unread,
Nov 20, 2021, 8:31:57 PM11/20/21
to
As AOB didn't have the integrity to confirm this himself, I guess I'll
have to do.

The following output was generated using his own decrypting code that
was recently posted on his website.
( yes it did come out formatted like that )

What rea
son is t
here to
believe
that suc
h an inf
lationar
y pictur
e of the
Univers
e is goi
ng to be
close t
o the tr
uth ? D
espite i
ts evide
nt popul
arity I
wish to
give my
own reas
ons for
casting
consider
able dou
bt on th
e entire
idea !
Again I
must giv
e my sta
tutory w
arning t
o the re
ader. I
nflation
ary cosm
ology ha
s become
a major
part of
the bod
y of mod
ern cosm
ological
thinkin
g. You
will fin
d that e
ven amon
g those
who are
not yet
convince
d of the
necessi
ty of in
flation
there ar
e few wh
o are as
negativ
e as I a
m going
to be in
the fol
lowing c
ritique.
If you
feel th
e need t
o ' bala
nce ' my
account
with on
e that f
inds mor
e Favour
with th
e inflat
ionary i
dea. Se
e Alan G
uth's ve
ry acces
sible bo
ok The I
nflation
ary Univ
erse. F
or my ow
n part,
I must p
resent t
hings as
I see t
hem and
since th
ere are
powerful
reasons
for dou
bting th
e very b
asis of
inflatio
nary cos
mology I
should
not refr
ain from
present
ing thes
e reason
s to the
reader.
But be
fore mak
ing my c
ritical
assessme
nt, I sh
ould mak
e clear
that my
remarks
do not t
ell us t
hat infl
ationary
cosmolo
gy is wr
ong. Th
ey merel
y provid
e strong
reasons
to doub
t most o
f the in
itial mo
tivation
s behind
the inf
lationar
y idea.
We may
recall t
hat many
importa
nt scien
tific id
eas of t
he past,
have, a
fter all
been ba
sed (par
tly) on
motivati
ons that
did not
stand u
p in the
light o
f subseq
uent und
erstandi
ng. One
of the
most imp
ortant o
f these
was Eins
tein's s
ignifica
nt depen
dence on
Mach's
Principl
e as a g
uide to
his even
tual dis
covery o
f genera
l relati
vity. M
ach's pr
inciple
asserts
that phy
sics sho
uld be d
efined e
ntirely
in terms
of the
relation
of one
body to
another,
and tha
t the ve
ry notio
n of a b
ackgroun
d space
should b
e abando
ned. La
ter anal
ysis of
Einstein
's theor
y showed
that Ma
ch's pri
nciple i
s not in
corporat
ed by ge
neral re
lativity
, howeve
r , irre
spective
of the
motivati
onal sig
nificanc
e of Mac
h's idea
. Anoth
er examp
le was D
irac's d
iscovery
of the
electron
's wave
equation
, which
he based
fundame
ntally o
n what h
e percei
ved to b
e the ne
cessity
for a fi
rst orde
r equati
on.

Chris M. Thomasson

unread,
Nov 20, 2021, 9:27:34 PM11/20/21
to
On 11/20/2021 5:31 PM, Colin wrote:
> fi
> rst orde
> r

Ohhh, shit. First order. I feel like watching starwars.

Max

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 2:46:36 AM11/21/21
to
Wow! Congratulations. I am very impressed.

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 2:52:40 AM11/21/21
to
<snip>

Congratulations, Colin. Yet another indisputable break of AOB plaintext.
Nevertheless, he will dispute it, you mark my words.

MM

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 4:57:40 AM11/21/21
to
On Sunday, 21 November 2021 at 01:31:57 UTC, Colin wrote:
> The following output was generated using his own decrypting code that

Congratulations!

> ( yes it did come out formatted like that )

That program prints a newline in the output wherever a newline appears in
the ciphertext. One of the many bugs, this one being minor.

M
--

MM

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 5:27:17 AM11/21/21
to
Look for the line

Ada.Text_IO.New_Line(File => OutData);

... fairly close to the bottom, and remove it.

M

wizzofozz

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 9:14:44 AM11/21/21
to
Op 21-11-2021 om 02:31 schreef Colin:
> On 13/11/21 14:37, Colin wrote:
>> On 31/10/21 14:56, Colin wrote:
>>> the 2nd character  = 'h'
>>> the 9th character  = 's'
>>> the 24th character = ' '
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What reason is there to believe....
>> _^______^______________^_______
>>
>
> As AOB didn't have the integrity to confirm this himself, I guess I'll
> have to do.
>
> The following output was generated using his own decrypting code that
> was recently posted on his website.
> ( yes it did  come out formatted like that )
>

Great, nice. But I thought the key was in the files that were not uploaded?
Did you have to do some analysis yourself, or were you basically 'Bob'?

Ozz

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 11:25:24 AM11/21/21
to
Character, man! Character! Colin almost certainly wouldn't have bothered
to post a decrypt if he'd just decrypted using a known key, and
absolutely definitely certainly would not have done so without
explaining that that was what he had done.

As the old saying goes, there is honour amongst Eves.

Colin

unread,
Nov 21, 2021, 12:43:56 PM11/21/21
to
On 22/11/21 05:25, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 21/11/2021 14:14, wizzofozz wrote:
>> Op 21-11-2021 om 02:31 schreef Colin:
>>> On 13/11/21 14:37, Colin wrote:
>>>> On 31/10/21 14:56, Colin wrote:
>>>>> the 2nd character  = 'h'
>>>>> the 9th character  = 's'
>>>>> the 24th character = ' '
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What reason is there to believe....
>>>> _^______^______________^_______
>>>>
>>>
>>> As AOB didn't have the integrity to confirm this himself, I guess
>>> I'll have to do.
>>>
>>> The following output was generated using his own decrypting code that
>>> was recently posted on his website.
>>> ( yes it did  come out formatted like that )
>>>
>>
>> Great, nice. But I thought the key was in the files that were not
>> uploaded?
>> Did you have to do some analysis yourself, or were you basically 'Bob'?
>
> Character, man! Character! Colin almost certainly wouldn't have bothered
> to post a decrypt if he'd just decrypted using a known key, and
> absolutely definitely certainly would not have done so without
> explaining that that was what he had done.
>
> As the old saying goes, there is honour amongst Eves.
>

That's why I was trying to say I was confirming it myself.

Disclaimer:
-the 2nd post of 31 characters required one of ten key files.
-the first post of 3 characters working was shown in this thread
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.crypt/c/a5O4Y3a8AzA

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 7:05:25 AM11/24/21
to
On 21/11/2021 07:52, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 21/11/2021 01:31, Colin wrote:
<snip>
>> inf
>> lationar
>> y pictur
>> e of the
>>   Univers
>> e is goi
>> ng to be
>>   close t
>> o the tr
>> uth ?
>
> <snip>
>
> Congratulations, Colin. Yet another indisputable break of AOB plaintext.
> Nevertheless, he will dispute it, you mark my words.

Just three days later... "Colin's so-called break was not a break per
se" - prediction **confirmed**.

David Eather

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 11:19:58 AM11/24/21
to
On 31/10/2021 2:35 am, austin obyrne wrote:
> Herewith is a sample of ciphertext from my ASLEC cipher .
> The sample simulates Eve having intercepted this quantity of ciphertext and she is trying to decrypt it by statistical means and indeed by any means.
>
> The reader cannot claim any help whatever that Eve would not reasonably be expected to possess.
>
> This sample is absolutely honest and has not been tinkered with in anyway.

>

Much appreciated.

You have to accept that Collin's showed your cipher leaks information
(he published three letters from your test the message later confirmed
correct) even before you published the source code of your 'unbreakable'
cipher. That means your cipher is hideously bad at securing information.
This is what 4 or 5 total breaks for the variations of this idea?

No one is ever going to use it for anything and when you disappear so
will all that vector "stuff" you have been writing about.

You need to start again with an new idea.

Colin

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 12:45:37 PM11/24/21
to
>>
>> Congratulations, Colin. Yet another indisputable break of AOB
>> plaintext. Nevertheless, he will dispute it, you mark my words.
>
> Just three days later... "Colin's so-called break was not a break per
> se" - prediction **confirmed**.
>

Hehe its all part of the game.


On the other hand to quote AOB
"The sample I am about to post is totally independent of all my
previous work and has never left my computer. It has been
stored safely on my home computer for many months and
has never, ever gone public."

Perhaps it can be considered a break determining this statement was
total bollocks. After all Richard you have been warning him not to
reuse key material.

The wise people here can make up their own minds and label what I
have presented however they please.

Rich

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 12:52:09 PM11/24/21
to
I label it: "a successful proof of a break of aslec".

MM

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 2:03:47 PM11/24/21
to
On Monday, 1 November 2021 at 07:59:31 UTC, austin obyrne wrote:
> You will no doubt claim another BUST.

Yup.

> Get on with and stop whingeing

I can't think of anything more persuasive than plaintext.

M
--

Richard Heathfield

unread,
Nov 24, 2021, 6:29:08 PM11/24/21
to
On 24/11/2021 17:45, Colin wrote:
>>>
>>> Congratulations, Colin. Yet another indisputable break of AOB
>>> plaintext. Nevertheless, he will dispute it, you mark my words.
>>
>> Just three days later... "Colin's so-called break was not a break per
>> se" - prediction **confirmed**.
>>
>
> Hehe its all part of the game.
>
>
> On the other hand to quote AOB
> "The sample I am about to post is totally independent of all my
> previous work and has never left my computer.  It has been
> stored safely on my home computer for many months and
> has never, ever gone public."
>
> Perhaps it can be considered a break determining this statement was
> total bollocks. After all Richard you have been warning him not to
> reuse key material.

This is something AOB never understood. He thinks a key should be
re-usable, and indeed he's right; you have to go out of your way to
design a cipher for which re-using a key is risky. But he managed. He
cannot bring himself to accept this, but it doesn't change the facts. If
only he'd made it easier to change the key and hadn't hard-wired the key
into the source code, it might never have mattered. But he didn't, and
he did, and it does.
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