Wilkens' Troy in England and Homer's language
Doug Weller
'ignoramus' and 'liar' but a particularly well-informed poet, whose
works now turn out to contain an unsuspected wealth of information on
the Bronze Age history of England and the Continent, about which
nothing was known until now. But we still have to deal with the often
heard argument that Homer's epics concern Greek history because his
works were written in ancient Greek.
However, this is a very weak argument as it matters little whether an
event is recounted in one language or another. In fact Homer's texts
were transmitted orally for some 400 years before they were translated
and written down in Greece but it is still possible to retrace their
origin to the Sea Peoples living on the Atlantic seaboard. It is indeed
unlikely that the original language was Greek. Already Professor
Flacelière noted that 'the metrics of the epics, the dactylic hexameter,
seems to be a borrowing, an imitation of a foreign model rather than an
invention of the Greeks themselves, since the lines contain an
abnormally high proportion of short syllables for their language, and
thus require a particular effort on the part of the poet'. It also
appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from
western European languages, relatively more often from Dutch rather than
English, French or German. This phenomenon is not difficult to
understand in view of the migration of the Sea Peoples into the
Mediterranean during the second millenium BC, as confirmed by Egyptian
records as well as Herodotus. Conversely we may assume that a large
number of Greek words were adopted in Western Europe long before the
Renaissance. We may take this to be so as Geoffrey of Monmouth tells us
that Brutus and his men spoke 'Trojan' or 'Crooked Greek' which
subsequently became 'British'."
I can't make a lot of sense of the above, but I think it is worthwhile
making a few comments about the language of 'Homer'.
Again I'm relying mainly on Michael Wood's In Search of the Trojan War.
He writes that "the only sure way of showing that the Homeric tradition
had roots in the heroic poetry of the Mycenaean Age would be by
demonstrating survivals of specifically Mycenaean poetic language in
Homer. The language of Homer is a mixture of many dialects and periods,
predominantly Ionic (reflecting Homer's background in the Smyrna region
and that of his successors, the Chiot Homeridae?), but it also contains
a number of words in the more ancient Arcado-Cypriot dialect, spoken in
the isolated areas of Arcadia and Cyprus, both of which go back to the
Mycenaean period. Such words then can indicate a survival of more
ancient forms: so too can some of the rarer Linear B words.
Unfortunately in all of Homer only one phrase loots to be certainly
Mycenaean, namely the phasganon arguroelon, 'silver-studded swords',
with its variant, ksiphos arguroleon. Phasganon and kisphos ('sword')
are Mycenaean words, as is arguros ('silver') and perhaps alos ('stud').
Such swords have not so far been found between the later Mycenaean
period and around 700 B.C., which suggests that the epithet became
attached to swords in the Bronze Age."
Homer also uses the title 'Anax' which is derived from the Linear B
'Wanax', the title of a Mycenaean king.
Some of the names of Homer's heroes can be found in the Linear B, eg.
a-ki-re-u (Achilles); a-i-wa (Aias=Ajax); e-ko-to (Hector); te-se-u
(Theseus); o-re-ta (Orestes); a-ta-no (Antenor); pa-da-ro (Pandaraos) --
perhaps up to 60 or 70, names which were in the main not used by Greeks
in historical times.
Doug
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
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benlizross
>
> WIlkens writes: "We must at last recognize that Homer was not an
> 'ignoramus' and 'liar' but a particularly well-informed poet, whose
> works now turn out to contain an unsuspected wealth of information on
> the Bronze Age history of England and the Continent, about which
> nothing was known until now. But we still have to deal with the often
> heard argument that Homer's epics concern Greek history because his
> works were written in ancient Greek.
>
> However, this is a very weak argument as it matters little whether an
> event is recounted in one language or another. In fact Homer's texts
> were transmitted orally for some 400 years before they were translated
> and written down in Greece but it is still possible to retrace their
> origin to the Sea Peoples living on the Atlantic seaboard. It is indeed
> unlikely that the original language was Greek. Already Professor
> seems to be a borrowing, an imitation of a foreign model rather than an
> invention of the Greeks themselves, since the lines contain an
> abnormally high proportion of short syllables for their language, and
> thus require a particular effort on the part of the poet'. It also
> appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from
> western European languages, relatively more often from Dutch rather than
> English, French or German.
Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
Ross Clark
Doug Weller
wrote:
>
>Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
>Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
>like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
>level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
Eric's reponse to this when JMB wrote: " He doesn't seem to realise
that Dutch, English, French, and German didn't actually exist as
languages at the time of Homer." was:
"Neother did Greek. He was obviously avoiding the need to describe the
languages of bronze-age Europe."
I don't know why Eric is suggesting Greek didn't exist at the time of
Homer, but in any case I don't see any obvious reason to interpret
Wilkens words the way Eric does.
I'll email you my original posts.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Doug Weller wrote:
>>
>> WIlkens writes: "We must at last recognize that Homer was not an
>> 'ignoramus' and 'liar' but a particularly well-informed poet, whose
>> works now turn out to contain an unsuspected wealth of information on
>> the Bronze Age history of England and the Continent, about which
>> nothing was known until now. But we still have to deal with the often
>> heard argument that Homer's epics concern Greek history because his
>> works were written in ancient Greek.
>>
>> However, this is a very weak argument as it matters little whether an
>> event is recounted in one language or another. In fact Homer's texts
>> were transmitted orally for some 400 years before they were translated
>> and written down in Greece but it is still possible to retrace their
>> origin to the Sea Peoples living on the Atlantic seaboard. It is indeed
>> unlikely that the original language was Greek. Already Professor
>> Flacelière noted that 'the metrics of the epics, the dactylic hexameter,
>> seems to be a borrowing, an imitation of a foreign model rather than an
>> invention of the Greeks themselves, since the lines contain an
>> abnormally high proportion of short syllables for their language, and
>> thus require a particular effort on the part of the poet'. It also
>> appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from
>> western European languages, relatively more often from Dutch rather than
>> English, French or German.
>
>Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
>Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
>like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
>level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
I took it that he wasn't talking about modern European loan words.
You must also appreciate that the above was not written by Wilkens in
the formal sense but part of the text of an address he gave to the
Classical Society of the University of Cambridge in 1992. Wilkens is
dutch and even in his formal english writing some of his terms and
usages are slightly peculiar. You can find the article from which Doug
quoted at http://phdamste.tripod.com/trojan.html
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:38:50 +1200, in sci.archaeology, benlizross
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
>>Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
>>like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
>>level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
>
>Eric's reponse to this when JMB wrote: " He doesn't seem to realise
>that Dutch, English, French, and German didn't actually exist as
>languages at the time of Homer." was:
>
>"Neother did Greek. He was obviously avoiding the need to describe the
>languages of bronze-age Europe."
>
>I don't know why Eric is suggesting Greek didn't exist at the time of
>Homer, but in any case I don't see any obvious reason to interpret
>Wilkens words the way Eric does.
>
Sorry, I got my wires slightly crossed. I was actually thinking of the
time of Troy rather than the time of Homer.
Eric Stevens
Doug Weller
wrote:
I don't see how that helps much either. Linear B is considered to have
been written in archaic Greek. Greek, but an early form of Greek.
And I'm not clear as to how, if he can't describe the languages, he can
know what he claims to know.
benlizross
>
> On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:38:50 +1200, benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >Doug Weller wrote:
> >>
> >> WIlkens writes: "We must at last recognize that Homer was not an
> >> 'ignoramus' and 'liar' but a particularly well-informed poet, whose
> >> works now turn out to contain an unsuspected wealth of information on
> >> the Bronze Age history of England and the Continent, about which
> >> nothing was known until now. But we still have to deal with the often
> >> heard argument that Homer's epics concern Greek history because his
> >> works were written in ancient Greek.
> >>
> >> However, this is a very weak argument as it matters little whether an
> >> event is recounted in one language or another. In fact Homer's texts
> >> were transmitted orally for some 400 years before they were translated
> >> and written down in Greece but it is still possible to retrace their
> >> origin to the Sea Peoples living on the Atlantic seaboard. It is indeed
> >> unlikely that the original language was Greek. Already Professor
> >> seems to be a borrowing, an imitation of a foreign model rather than an
> >> invention of the Greeks themselves, since the lines contain an
> >> abnormally high proportion of short syllables for their language, and
> >> thus require a particular effort on the part of the poet'. It also
> >> appears that Homer's Greek contains a large number of loan words from
> >> western European languages, relatively more often from Dutch rather than
> >> English, French or German.
> >
> >Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
> >Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
> >like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
> >level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
>
> I took it that he wasn't talking about modern European loan words.
So why does he talk about modern European languages?
> You must also appreciate that the above was not written by Wilkens in
> the formal sense but part of the text of an address he gave to the
> Classical Society of the University of Cambridge in 1992. Wilkens is
> dutch and even in his formal english writing some of his terms and
> usages are slightly peculiar.
We're way beyond "slightly peculiar" here. This is complete moonshine.
The idea of distinguishing between "Dutch" on the one hand and "English"
and "German" on the other at ca. 1000 BC is so loony that I can only
hope the whole thing is some exquisite little academic joke that the
Cambridge people are playing at. Do we know for sure that Wilkens
exists?
Ross Clark
Eric Stevens
<dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:46:20 +1200, in sci.archaeology, Eric Stevens
>wrote:
>
>>On 9 Jun 2002 15:49:07 -0500, Doug Weller
>><dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:38:50 +1200, in sci.archaeology, benlizross
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Loanwords from modern European languages in Homer???
>>>>Sorry, Doug, I missed the beginning of this thread. Why is a sane person
>>>>like yourself apparently taking this guy seriously? This is on the same
>>>>level as Gupta finding Hindi words in Sumerian.
>>>
>>>Eric's reponse to this when JMB wrote: " He doesn't seem to realise
>>>that Dutch, English, French, and German didn't actually exist as
>>>languages at the time of Homer." was:
>>>
>>>"Neother did Greek. He was obviously avoiding the need to describe the
>>>languages of bronze-age Europe."
>>>
>>>I don't know why Eric is suggesting Greek didn't exist at the time of
>>>Homer, but in any case I don't see any obvious reason to interpret
>>>Wilkens words the way Eric does.
>>>
>>
>>Sorry, I got my wires slightly crossed. I was actually thinking of the
>>time of Troy rather than the time of Homer.
>
>I don't see how that helps much either. Linear B is considered to have
>been written in archaic Greek. Greek, but an early form of Greek.
I distinguish 'early-Greek' from 'Classic Greek' and again from
'Modern Greek'.
>
>And I'm not clear as to how, if he can't describe the languages, he can
>know what he claims to know.
English is not his native language.
Eric Stevens
Doug Weller
wrote:
Sorry, I don't know what your point is. He is very fluent in English,
that's clear from his stuff on the web and his book, which I now have.
Eric Stevens
<dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I distinguish 'early-Greek' from 'Classic Greek' and again from
>>'Modern Greek'.
>>>
>>>And I'm not clear as to how, if he can't describe the languages, he can
>>>know what he claims to know.
>>
>>English is not his native language.
>
>Sorry, I don't know what your point is. He is very fluent in English,
>that's clear from his stuff on the web and his book, which I now have.
I agree his english is very fluent but there are the odd strange
usages which signal that it is not his native language. His current
series of web pages are a case in point. Most pages have a hot-spot
button labelled "Last Page" when it is clear that hre really meant
"Previous Page". I read his book with a mental filter in place to
translate some of his usages.
Eric Stevens
Doug Weller
wrote:
>On 10 Jun 2002 17:47:20 -0500, Doug Weller
I noticed the buttons, but put it down to his writing probably in
American English rather than English English. And I don't know how this
relates to my comment about what JMB wrote when he said about Wilkens
>>>...: " He doesn't seem to realise
>>>that Dutch, English, French, and German didn't actually exist as
>>>languages at the time of Homer."
and you said that Wilkens
" was obviously avoiding the need to describe the
languages of bronze-age Europe."
Doug
Eric Stevens
<dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Without refering to the text I can't give you a more precise
explanation but when I read the text, to make sense of what he wrote,
I assumed that he was referring to the parent languages. As I said, I
assumed he used the modern terms to avoid the need to correctly
express the names of the ancient languages in English,
Eric Stevens
Odysseus
>
> Without refering to the text I can't give you a more precise
> explanation but when I read the text, to make sense of what he wrote,
> I assumed that he was referring to the parent languages. As I said, I
> assumed he used the modern terms to avoid the need to correctly
> express the names of the ancient languages in English,
>
German" considering that these languages only began to differentiate
within the past two thousand years: their "parent languages" would have
been indistinguishable three thousand years ago.
--Odysseus
Doug Weller
Read the short thread Iman Wilkens and his comments on 'English rivers'
in Homer, posted only to sci.archaeology, soc.history.ancient,
alt.history.british (maybe I should post that in the classics groups?).
You will see that Wilkens doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on languages
of that period, at least Greek.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
I agree. I don't know anything much about the current theories of the
evolution of the languages in the relevant areas so I have no real
idea of the Wilkens was driving at.
Eric Stevens