plural of "curriculum vitae"
Mark Israel
At <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~alan/cv.html>, al...@cs.auckland.ac.nz (G. Alan Creak) writes:
> I am given to understand, by no less a personage than an erstwhile
> professor of classics at Auckland, that the plural of "curriculum
> vitae" is indeed "curricula vitae", and not - as Mr Chapman, my
> Latin master at Tadcaster Grammar School ( see below ), taught
> me - "curricula vitarum". I'll happily receive corrections to
> other bits of badly remembered Latin from any apparently
> authoritative source. And the fault is more likely to be in my
> memory than in Mr Chapman.
Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
perfectly correct response. :-(
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
Ned Kelly
Mark Israel (mis...@scripps.edu) wrote:
: Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
: be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
: dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
: only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
: vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
: perfectly correct response. :-(
I guess it's like the case of courts martial, which is plural for court
martial. Another wierd one is attourneys or surgeons general.
--
Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html
"That isn't a knife.... This is a KNIFE!" - Paul Hogan
The Navy: It's Not Just A Job..... It's $cientology Lite!
Stephen C Carlson
In article <misraelD...@netcom.com> mis...@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes:
> Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
>be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
>dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
>only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
>vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
>perfectly correct response. :-(
I would understand "curricula vitarum" or even "curriculum vitarum"
as referring to resumes with more than one person described upon
each. The singular "vitae" would imply that no matter how many
"curricula" there are, it is still one life per resume. I don't
see how the mass v. count distinction fits in here.
Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson, George Mason University School of Law, Patent Track, 4LE
scar...@osf1.gmu.edu : Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs
http://osf1.gmu.edu/~scarlso1/ : chant the words. -- Shujing 2.35
Curtis M. Smith
Mark Israel wrote:
>
> At <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~alan/cv.html>, al...@cs.auckland.ac.nz (G. Alan Creak) writes:
>
> > I am given to understand, by no less a personage than an erstwhile
> > professor of classics at Auckland, that the plural of "curriculum
> > vitae" is indeed "curricula vitae", and not - as Mr Chapman, my
> > Latin master at Tadcaster Grammar School ( see below ), taught
> > me - "curricula vitarum". I'll happily receive corrections to
> > other bits of badly remembered Latin from any apparently
> > authoritative source. And the fault is more likely to be in my
> > memory than in Mr Chapman.
>
> be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
> dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
> only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
> vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
> perfectly correct response. :-(
>
> mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
"Curricula vitae" would be just fine if it were three different
accounts of his own life. I believe this is what his erstwhile
professor of classics believed was on the web page.
But, is he trying to give one account of his three different
lives (as a scholar, chemist, and computist)? That would
be "curriculum vitorum".
I know he has had three lives because he has his "curriculum
vitae primae" (account of first life), &c., rather than
"curriculum primum vitae" (first account of life).
BTW, the usual oral plural I hear for "curriculum vitae" is
"vitaes" /vit@z/. AltaVista reports 166 pages with "vitaes"
(but not "curriculum vitaes") and 140 pages with "curriculum
vitaes".
Curtis Smith
Edwin P. Menes
Someone must have the data to answer this question, somewhere out there
in the media, unless bacteria have been active--an event not among my
many desiderata.
Ed Menes
Fraser Wilson
nedk...@eagle.ais.net (Ned Kelly) writes:
>I guess it's like the case of courts martial, which is plural for court
>martial. Another weird one is attourneys or surgeons general.
Well ... I expect that the "martial" in courts martial is an adjective,
only it's not in the usual place, which is why it sounds strange. If
we said "martial courts" or "general surgeons", then no problem.
As to why the adjective has moved: no idea. Perhaps these terms came
from French as ready-made idioms, and so the Anglification process
didn't swap them back again.
Fraser.
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <misraelD...@netcom.com>, mis...@scripps.edu says...
}At <http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~alan/cv.html>, al...@cs.auckland.ac.nz
}(G. Alan Creak) writes:
}}I am given to understand, by no less a personage than an erstwhile
}}professor of classics at Auckland, that the plural of "curriculum
}}vitae" is indeed "curricula vitae", and not - as Mr Chapman, my
}}Latin master at Tadcaster Grammar School ( see below ), taught
}}me - "curricula vitarum". I'll happily receive corrections to
}}other bits of badly remembered Latin from any apparently
}}authoritative source. And the fault is more likely to be in my
}}memory than in Mr Chapman.
} Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
}be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
}dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
}only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
}vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
}perfectly correct response. :-(
If the question refers to the plural in Latin, since each "curriculum"
usually refers to one "vita", I think the most correct plural is
"curricula vitae".
On the contrary, if it refers to how form the plural in other languages,
e.g. English, I think it depends on the habit, and perhaps there are not
definitive rules. In Italian, for example, I prefer not to use plural of
foreign words. By the way, names of pasta in Italian are countable, so
spaghetto is a piece of such a pasta and its plural is spaghetti;
however, ASAIK, English speakers do not use spaghetto, but only
spaghetti.
Note. I'm also posting this article to sci.lang. That's why it's also
include the complete original posting by G. Alan Creak.
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
Keith C. Ivey
mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) wrote:
>By the way, names of pasta in Italian are countable, so
>spaghetto is a piece of such a pasta and its plural is spaghetti;
>however, ASAIK, English speakers do not use spaghetto, but only
>spaghetti.
And it goes beyond pasta, "zucchini" is also singular (both
count and mass) in US English, and "biscotti", introduced
recently, seems to be going that way.
[posted and mailed]
Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> Washington, DC
Contributing Editor/Webmaster
The Editorial Eye <http://www.eei-alex.com/eye/>
floaiza
> Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
>be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
>dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
>only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
>vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
>perfectly correct response. :-(
********************************************
1) curriculum vitae ---> the course of one's life
2) curriculum vitarum --> the course of one's multiple lives. Use this only
if you believe in reincarnation or your name is
Shirley Maclain :-)
3) curricula vitae ---> a pile of the above-mentioned type (1) submissions
waiting to be read by an underpaid personnel clerk.
4) curricula vitarum ---> a pile of the above mentioned type (2) submissions
waiting to be read by an overpaid Hollywood agent.
(just an opinion)
Francisco
Gian Carlo Macchi
At 11:52:04 29 Aug 1996 GMT, Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> says...
}mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) wrote:
}}By the way, names of pasta in Italian are countable, so
}}spaghetto is a piece of such a pasta and its plural is spaghetti;
}}however, ASAIK, English speakers do not use spaghetto, but only
}}spaghetti.
}And it goes beyond pasta, "zucchini" is also singular (both
}count and mass) in US English, and "biscotti", introduced
}recently, seems to be going that way.
Do you mean that, if you indicate two biscuits, you'll say "two
biscottis"?
About zucchini, note that, at present, in Italy the preferred form is
"zucchine" (plural of "zucchina"), that is feminine, while "zucchini"
(plural of "zucchino") is masculine. Zucchino and zucchina are diminutives
of "zucca" (gourd) and musn't be confused with "zuccone" (plural
"zucconi"), augmentative of zucca, that means slow-witted person.
Obviously zuccone is countable. (-:
Ciao.
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
29 augist 1996
Mark Israel
> I would understand "curricula vitarum" or even "curriculum vitarum"
> as referring to resumes with more than one person described upon
> each. The singular "vitae" would imply that no matter how many
> "curricula" there are, it is still one life per resume.
In article <503lt9$a...@news.erl.sbs.de>, mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) writes
> If the question refers to the plural in Latin, since each "curriculum"
> usually refers to one "vita", I think the most correct plural is
> "curricula vitae".
I find this principle strange. If two gladiators have one sword
each, should I translate "the swords of the gladiators" as _gladii
gladiatoris_ or _gladii gladiatorum_? If the latter, how is
_curricula vitae_ different?
--
mis...@scripps.edu Mark Israel
John K. Taber
Keith C. Ivey wrote:
> And it goes beyond pasta, "zucchini" is also singular (both
> count and mass) in US English, and "biscotti", introduced
> recently, seems to be going that way.
And there seems to be hidden rules which borrow word observes the foreign
plural, and which is anglicized. For example, one might say "stigma" and
"stigmata", but not "dolma" and "dolmata". We say "dolmas" without a
second thought.
The difference seems to be one word is learned while the other is
demotic.
--
=========================================================================
Whoever . . . knowingly and for profit manufactures, reproduces, or uses
the character "Woodsy Owl", the name "Woodsy Owl", or the associated
slogan, "Give a Hoot, Don't Pollute" shall be fined not more than $250 or
imprisoned not more than six months, or both. -- 18 U.S.C. sec. 711a.
Allen Adler
Man of leisure -> Men of leisure
Account payable -> Accounts payable
Piece of eight -> pieces of eight
etc.
Allan Adler
ad...@pulsar.cs.wku.edu
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
In article <503705$5...@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, fra...@mundook.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Fraser Wilson) writes:
> nedk...@eagle.ais.net (Ned Kelly) writes:
There is no need for a plural. Neither for this nor for penis. It is
unnatural; if there is a second one it is a fake.
--
Nyal Z. Williams
00nzwi...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
Michael Tobis
Gian Carlo Macchi (mac...@marina.scn.de) wrote:
: }And it goes beyond pasta, "zucchini" is also singular (both
: }count and mass) in US English, and "biscotti", introduced
: }recently, seems to be going that way.
: Do you mean that, if you indicate two biscuits, you'll say "two
: biscottis"?
"Biscotti" refers to a particular type of confection. Be warned that
the American usage of "biscuit" refers to something quite unlike the
usage in other English speaking countries, and a "biscotti" [sic]
is quite dissimilar. (We refer here to a long, narrow, crisp cookie,
resembling stale toast in appearance, but much nicer in flavor, usually
containing almonds and sometimes chocolate.) I have on occasion asked
for a "biscotto" at a cafe. Is this correct? The cafe personnel usually
consider the request vaguely lunatic, or at best hopelessly pedantic.
I could never bring myself to ask for two "biscottis", but I suspect
that is the norm.
Ken West
As long as we watch football games in stadiums, and movies in auditoriums,
why isn't a pile of papers on the way to the trash basket just called:
curriculums vitaes'
?
Aaron Barnes
In article <504bm6$b...@riscsm.scripps.edu>, mis...@scripps.edu (Mark
Israel) wrote:
-------------------------------------
All this leads inevitably to the following question:
Is the plural of son-of-a-bitch sons-of-a-bitch or sons-of-bitches?
Just wondering.
--
Aaron Barnes
suns...@quake.net
Hypotheses non Fingo
Keith C. Ivey
"John K. Taber" <jkt...@onramp.net> wrote:
>And there seems to be hidden rules which borrow word
>observes the foreign plural, and which is anglicized. For
>example, one might say "stigma" and "stigmata", but not
>"dolma" and "dolmata". We say "dolmas" without a second
>thought.
I say "dolmades"; that's the name under which they were
introduced to me. I hadn't even thought about what the
singular was until you mentioned "dolma".
Keith C. Ivey
>: Do you mean that, if you indicate two biscuits, you'll say "two
>: biscottis"?
>"Biscotti" refers to a particular type of confection. [...] (We
>refer here to a long, narrow, crisp cookie, resembling stale toast
>in appearance, but much nicer in flavor, usually containing almonds
>and sometimes chocolate.)
Note that, unlike most of the things called "biscuit" in the US
or other English-speaking countries, biscotti actually live up
to their name, which means "twice baked". The dough is baked as
a loaf, sliced, and baked again to produce the toastlike cookies
you describe.
Biscotti have been popularized in the US during the past few
years in the coffee shops that have sprouted on every corner in
major and minor cities (there are three within a two-block
stretch of Connecticut Avenue near my apartment). The shops
serve coffee drinks with mostly Italian names (espresso,
cappuccino, caffe latte, etc.); I have no idea whether these
drinks resemble anything actually served in Italy.
>I have on occasion asked for a "biscotto" at a cafe. Is this
>correct? The cafe personnel usually consider the request vaguely
>lunatic, or at best hopelessly pedantic.
I agree that it's pedantic, but I can't bring myself to say "a
biscotti". I'd say "one of those biscotti".
>I could never bring myself to ask for two "biscottis", but I
>suspect that is the norm.
I'm sure it's done. I don't know whether it's the norm, or
whether most people use "biscotti" as singular and plural.
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <505532$1...@spool.cs.wisc.edu>, to...@scram.ssec.wisc.edu
says...
[snip]
>"Biscotti" refers to a particular type of confection. Be warned that
>the American usage of "biscuit" refers to something quite unlike the
>usage in other English speaking countries, and a "biscotti" [sic]
>is quite dissimilar. (We refer here to a long, narrow, crisp cookie,
>resembling stale toast in appearance, but much nicer in flavor, usually
>containing almonds and sometimes chocolate.)
At present I don't remember anything like the biscuit you refers to, that
probably also exists in Italy and have a specific name. This evening ill
try to ask my son, more expert than me.
>I have on occasion asked for a "biscotto" at a cafe. Is this correct?
In Italy this is the only correct form, if you want one biscuit. But in
US, as I see, usage is different.
>The cafe personnel usually consider the request vaguely lunatic, or at
>best hopelessly pedantic.
>
>I could never bring myself to ask for two "biscottis", but I suspect
>that is the norm.
So is biscotti countable? Anyway "biscottis" sounds to my Italian ear as
"childrens", for example.
Ciao.
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
30 August 1996
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <5063c6$m...@news.erl.sbs.de>, this morning I sent the following
reply to the article <505532$1...@spool.cs.wisc.edu> by Michael Tobis
<to...@scram.ssec.wisc.edu>...
[snip]
}}Be warned that the American usage of "biscuit" refers to something
}}quite unlike the usage in other English speaking countries, and a
}}"biscotti" [sic] is quite dissimilar. (We refer here to a long,
}}narrow, crisp cookie, resembling stale toast in appearance, but much
}}nicer in flavor, usually containing almonds and sometimes chocolate.)
}At present I don't remember anything like the biscuit you refers to,
}that probably also exists in Italy and have a specific name. This
}evening ill try to ask my son, more expert than me.
Michael, incredibile dictu, after I posted the above reply, a collegue of
mine entered my office and asked "Gian Carlo, do you like to take a
coffe with me?". While we were drinking, he said: "Come on to my office,
where I have biscuits". I couldn't believe what I saw, those
biscuits looked exactly like those you described and contained almonds
(but not chocolate). The name printed on the bag was "pastarelle" (of
course plural of "pastarella") and my colleague informed me that this is
their name in Molise, the region in southern Italy where they came from.
Rainer Thonnes
In article <502fth$m...@news.ais.net>, nedk...@eagle.ais.net (Ned Kelly) writes:
>
> Mark Israel (mis...@scripps.edu) wrote:
> : Could somone please explain the reasoning here? Why must _vita_
> : be a mass noun and not a count noun? I admit that all my English
> : dictionaries give only "curricula vitae", and that AltaVista found
> : only 15 pages with "curricula vitarum" versus 536 with "curricula
> : vitae". I just embarrassed myself at Lydbury by "correcting" a
> : perfectly correct response. :-(
>
No, "martial" and "general" are just adjectives in these contexts, and
English does not pluralise adjectives which attach to plural nouns.
It would seem logical, when talking about a pile of CVs relating to a
number of individuals applying for a post, to refer to them as curricula
vitarum because more than one life is involved.
The question arises whether the term CV is one which would have existed
in real Latin or whether it's just an English term which happens to be
composed of Latin words. In the latter case one could argue that the
noun "vitae" has been adjectived and is therefore, in keeping with English
rules, not pluralised.
Alternatively we can keep it as a noun but would observe that even in
English such attached nouns are not always pluralised. If we loosely
translate "curriculum" as "story", then one applicant's CV is the
story of his/her life, and a pile of them constitutes the stories of
their lives (both pluralised). Or it could be one life story and
several life stories (life not pluralised).
John K. Taber
Aaron Barnes wrote:
> All this leads inevitably to the following question:
> Is the plural of son-of-a-bitch sons-of-a-bitch or sons-of-bitches?
> Just wondering.
I have always heard "sons-of-bitches".
John K. Taber
Gian Carlo Macchi wrote:
> Michael, incredibile dictu, after I posted the above reply, a collegue of
> mine entered my office and asked "Gian Carlo, do you like to take a
> coffe with me?". While we were drinking, he said: "Come on to my office,
> where I have biscuits". I couldn't believe what I saw, those
> biscuits looked exactly like those you described and contained almonds
> (but not chocolate). The name printed on the bag was "pastarelle" (of
> course plural of "pastarella") and my colleague informed me that this is
> their name in Molise, the region in southern Italy where they came from.
Buon Giorno, Gian Carlo. I remember these biscotti from my childhood in
an immigrant Italian community in Northeast US. We also called them by
their German name "zweibach". They were usually flavored with almond
and sometimes with anise. We sopped them in our coffee.
The immigrant community was mostly Calabresi, Siciliani, and Napolitani.
Few from the North.
Ciao
John
Mark Odegard
[posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
On 29 Aug 1996 13:47:33 GMT, mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi)
wrote:
>At 11:52:04 29 Aug 1996 GMT, Keith C. Ivey <kci...@cpcug.org> says...
>}And it goes beyond pasta, "zucchini" is also singular (both
>}count and mass) in US English, and "biscotti", introduced
>}recently, seems to be going that way.
>Do you mean that, if you indicate two biscuits, you'll say "two
>biscottis"?
>About zucchini, note that, at present, in Italy the preferred form is
>"zucchine" (plural of "zucchina"), that is feminine, while "zucchini"
>(plural of "zucchino") is masculine. Zucchino and zucchina are diminutives
>of "zucca" (gourd) and musn't be confused with "zuccone" (plural
>"zucconi"), augmentative of zucca, that means slow-witted person.
>Obviously zuccone is countable. (-:
Um. Keith Ivey's observation tallys with my own. "Biscotti" is not a
biscuit, but a kind of Italian pastry, a combination of a cookie,
melba toast and danish, but uniquely itself. One blanches at saying
you "ate one biscotti", but that's what you're saying silently in your
mind. You could say "biscotto", and I suspect many do, but for me, it
seems to be one biscotti, two biscotti, a box of biscotti.
With Italian-derived words for food items, the pattern is well
established, almost to constitute a rule: the plural (or a faux
plural) tends to become the a singular mass and count term in English.
--
Mark Odegard ode...@ptel.net
The great orthographical contest has long subsisted between
etymology and pronunciation. It has been demanded, on one hand,
that men should write as they speak; but, as it has been shown
that this conformity never was attained in any language, and
that it is not more easy to persuade men to agree exactly in
speaking than in writing, it may be asked, with equal propriety,
why men do not rather speak as they write.
-- Samuel Johnson, "The Plan of an English Dictionary" (1747).
Bob Rust
Allen Adler wrote:
>
> Man of leisure -> Men of leisure
> Account payable -> Accounts payable
> Piece of eight -> pieces of eight
>
Bob Rust
Stephen C Carlson
In article <504bm6$b...@riscsm.scripps.edu> mis...@scripps.edu (Mark Israel) writes:
>In article <5022br$f...@portal.gmu.edu>, scar...@osf1.gmu.edu (Stephen C Carlson) writes:
>> I would understand "curricula vitarum" or even "curriculum vitarum"
>> as referring to resumes with more than one person described upon
>> each. The singular "vitae" would imply that no matter how many
>> "curricula" there are, it is still one life per resume.
>
>each, should I translate "the swords of the gladiators" as _gladii
>gladiatoris_ or _gladii gladiatorum_? If the latter, how is
>_curricula vitae_ different?
I would say that the two examples are different because the use of the
genitive is different. In "curriculum vitae" the word "vitae" is an
example of the gentive of contents: "vitae" (life) describes what the
curriculum is made of. The other example, "gladius gladitoris" is an
example of the genitive of possession: the gladiator possesses the
sword.
Therefore, since the phrase "curriculum vitae" includes the genitive of
contents, a plural genitive would indicate plural contents, yet there
is only one life per resume. I think your initial point about the mass
noun vs. count noun distinction was more perceptive than I had initially
realized because mass nouns are good candidates for the genitive of
contents (a.k.a. the genitive of material).
Keith C. Ivey
ode...@ptel.net (Mark Odegard) wrote:
>Um. Keith Ivey's observation tallys with my own. "Biscotti" is not a
>biscuit, but a kind of Italian pastry, a combination of a cookie,
>melba toast and danish, but uniquely itself.
How do you define "pastry"? I'm not sure how I do, but I know
it when I see it, and biscotti aren't it, any more than any
other cookies are. There's nothing danish-like about the
biscotti I've seen.
And biscotti aren't biscuits in *US* English. I'm sure they
would be described as biscuits in the UK (I don't know whether
they're called biscotti there, though), so Gian Carlo Macchi was
correct. He just wasn't writing in your dialect.
By the way, I've seen something similar to biscotti sold (in the
US) under the name "mandelbrot" (German for "almond bread").
Several packages would constitute a mandelbrot set.
>With Italian-derived words for food items, the pattern is well
>established, almost to constitute a rule: the plural (or a faux
>plural) tends to become the a singular mass and count term in English.
I'd say "mass *or* count term". In fact, other than "zucchini",
I can't think of any that are count terms (and form a plural in
"s")--"peperoncini", maybe?
Another problem with the rule is that it ignores the many food
words derived from Italian singulars: "pizza", "calzone",
"mozzarella", "espresso", "cappuccino", "gelato", "zabaglione",
"focaccia", even (anomalous among the other pastas) "lasagna".
Rob Pegoraro
In article <sunstorm-290...@l62.ip.quake.net>,
suns...@quake.net (Aaron Barnes) wrote:
>All this leads inevitably to the following question:
>
>Is the plural of son-of-a-bitch sons-of-a-bitch or sons-of-bitches?
>
>Just wondering.
"Sons of bitches," of course, unless the bastards in question all come
from the same mother. "SOBs" will do fine as well.
Which brings up something I noticed in Rainer Thomas's post, in which he
uses the abbreviation "CV" throughout. In everyday use, I would expect
that the plural term "CVs" would be far more popular than any of the much
wordier "curricul* vit*" alternative being batted around here.
ro...@cais.com ====================================================
Rob Pegoraro At work, I'm r...@twp.com, but
Washington, D.C., USA I'm only speaking for myself here
======================================== http://www.cais.com/robp/
Rose Platt
On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Mark Odegard wrote:
> With Italian-derived words for food items, the pattern is well
> established, almost to constitute a rule: the plural (or a faux
> plural) tends to become the a singular mass and count term in English.
What _is_ the plural of 'pizza'?
--Silence
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."
--Mark Twain
Spy
Gian Carlo Macchi <mac...@marina.scn.de> wrote in article
> }}By the way, names of pasta in Italian are countable, so
> }}spaghetto is a piece of such a pasta and its plural is spaghetti;
Same with graffiti being the plural of graffito.
Spy
Mark Odegard
[posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
A nasty little minefield of a question.
If it's the box itself you are referring to, then jack-in-the-boxes.
If you refer to the "jack" that pops out of the box, then you could
say with some justice "jacks-in-the-box" and probably not be
misunderstood. If you are referring to each jack in two or more boxes,
well then, it could be jacks-in-the-boxes. And if you have a peculiar
jack-in-the-box with two jacks inside, and then maybe, a whole factory
run of such boxes, it gets ever-so-more-difficult.
Because of the potential for ambiguity, the English rule here is to
phrase yourself carefully. If you are speaking of uncomplicated
jack-in-the-boxes, each with one jack inside, then it's
"jack-in-the-boxes". If you have cause to speak of the jacks, then
it's "the jacks in the jack-in-the-boxes", or some variation thereto.
rust
On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:22:21 +0000, Bob Rust <ru...@online.no> trolled:
>>But what is the plural of "jack in the box"?
And one Mark Odegard returned the following sage cautions, showing
that the masters of the subtle schools are just as controversial as
they are polymath:
>A nasty little minefield of a question.
>
>If it's the box itself you are referring to, then jack-in-the-boxes.
>If you refer to the "jack" that pops out of the box, then you could
>say with some justice "jacks-in-the-box" and probably not be
>misunderstood. If you are referring to each jack in two or more boxes,
>well then, it could be jacks-in-the-boxes. And if you have a peculiar
>jack-in-the-box with two jacks inside, and then maybe, a whole factory
>run of such boxes, it gets ever-so-more-difficult.
>
>Because of the potential for ambiguity, the English rule here is to
>phrase yourself carefully. If you are speaking of uncomplicated
>jack-in-the-boxes, each with one jack inside, then it's
>"jack-in-the-boxes". If you have cause to speak of the jacks, then
>it's "the jacks in the jack-in-the-boxes", or some variation thereto.
>--
>Mark Odegard ode...@ptel.net
[Snipping a signature that consists of about two thirds of Johnson's
Plan, to the effect that maybe everybody should be more careful to
speak English the way Mark thinks he writes it.]
Thanks, Mark. The Norwegians call the same thing a "troll in the box."
Any of you other trolls have any idea what a good plural for "troll in
the box" would be?
Bob Rust
Mark Odegard
[posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
wrote:
>ode...@ptel.net (Mark Odegard) wrote:
>>Um. Keith Ivey's observation tallys with my own. "Biscotti" is not a
>>biscuit, but a kind of Italian pastry, a combination of a cookie,
>>melba toast and danish, but uniquely itself.
>How do you define "pastry"? I'm not sure how I do, but I know
>it when I see it, and biscotti aren't it, any more than any
>other cookies are. There's nothing danish-like about the
>biscotti I've seen.
Danish are filled or frosted, based on a sweet dough. I said biscotti
were a combination of danish, melba and cookies but uniquely something
else. They are not cookies or crackers, they are not toast, they are
not a sweetened bread or danish pastry.
As for pastry, what *other* word can you use for biscotti? "Bread" or
"cracker" does not work; "toasted cookie" comes nearest, and I say
cookies are a kind of pastry.
>And biscotti aren't biscuits in *US* English. I'm sure they
>would be described as biscuits in the UK (I don't know whether
>they're called biscotti there, though), so Gian Carlo Macchi was
>correct. He just wasn't writing in your dialect.
>By the way, I've seen something similar to biscotti sold (in the
>US) under the name "mandelbrot" (German for "almond bread").
>Several packages would constitute a mandelbrot set.
>>With Italian-derived words for food items, the pattern is well
>>established, almost to constitute a rule: the plural (or a faux
>>plural) tends to become the a singular mass and count term in English.
>I'd say "mass *or* count term". In fact, other than "zucchini",
>I can't think of any that are count terms (and form a plural in
>"s")--"peperoncini", maybe?
>Another problem with the rule is that it ignores the many food
>words derived from Italian singulars: "pizza", "calzone",
>"mozzarella", "espresso", "cappuccino", "gelato", "zabaglione",
>"focaccia", even (anomalous among the other pastas) "lasagna".
I overstated myself. But the pattern with pasta and the ever-prolific
zucchini does form a kind of rule. Polenta (the snooty word for fried
corn meal mush) and risotto might be mentioned in this context. These
words tend to be both plural and singular once they arrive in English.
One expresso, two expresso, two gelato. Focaccia is mass: I don't know
if the word is singular or plural: I just ask for more focaccia. I
lived in Brooklyn too long: it's two calzones (pronounced just as it
should be in English or in Sicilian/Calabrian dialects). Pizza is mass
when referring to the dish indefinitely, but when you order two pies,
it's two pizzas. Lasagna is mass, like all the other pasta.
Keith C. Ivey
>>There's nothing danish-like about the biscotti I've seen.
>Danish are filled or frosted, based on a sweet dough.
Ah, so you were talking about *frosted* biscotti (an
abomination, as far as I'm concerned). I've never encountered
filled biscotti.
>As for pastry, what *other* word can you use for biscotti? "Bread" or
>"cracker" does not work; "toasted cookie" comes nearest, and I say
>cookies are a kind of pastry.
To me, "cookies" is a perfectly good word for biscotti, and I
don't think of cookies as pastry.
>One expresso, two expresso, two gelato. Focaccia is mass: I don't know
>if the word is singular or plural: I just ask for more focaccia. I
>lived in Brooklyn too long: it's two calzones (pronounced just as it
>should be in English or in Sicilian/Calabrian dialects). Pizza is mass
>when referring to the dish indefinitely, but when you order two pies,
>it's two pizzas. Lasagna is mass, like all the other pasta.
I've never heard anyone say "two espresso"; I have heard "two
espressos". (Does "expresso" belong in the thread on modified
spelling of loan words?) The same with "gelato".
Also, remember that the rule you posted earlier said that "the
plural (or a faux plural) tends to become the a singular mass
and count term in English." That doesn't apply to "espresso",
"pasta", "pizza", "polenta", or any of the other examples you
have in the message I'm responding to now.
Yes, "lasagna" is a mass noun, like the names of other pastas.
My point was that it's derived from the Italian singular, not
the plural (like "spaghetti", "vermicelli", "rigatoni",
"tortellini", "ravioli", "farfalle", etc.). It is, however,
sometimes spelled "lasagne", which is the Italian plural.
"Linguine" is the plural of "linguina" (little tongue) in
Italian; it's sometimes spelled "linguini" in English (another
modified spelling of a loan word).
I just thought of "orzo", another singular pasta. "Lasagna"
isn't alone after all.
Mark Odegard
[posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:22:21 +0000, Bob Rust <ru...@online.no> trolled:
[...]
>Thanks, Mark. The Norwegians call the same thing a "troll in the box."
>Any of you other trolls have any idea what a good plural for "troll in
>the box" would be?
Norwegian trolls (not quite as nasty as German trolls but still prone
to anthropophagia and other disgusting practices too loathesome to
mention on even as strong-stomached a newsgroup as a.u.e.) tend to
dwell in caves, though a few of them have fine farms with gingerbread
houses designed to attract unsuspecting youths.
The advice of the Norwegian Ministry of Troll and Ogre Abatement is
that trolls be burned and that the ashes be gathered and put into a
box. Thus, "troll-in-the-box".
"Urns-in-the-columbarium", then, would be one plural for
"troll-in-the-box". When you have urns in multiple pigeon holes or
worse, spread across two or more buildings, "urns-in-the-columbaria"
would be ambiguous, just as "jacks-in-the-boxes", but all of this is
academic, as troll-ashes are never deposited in columbaria. The
preferred use is as the lut for lutefisk; a wooden box is the
recommended container for the preparation and thus, "lut-in-the-box"
(both singular and plural) is the preferred form.
Since this was a rusty troll, perhaps "Rustoleum-in-the-cans" would be
of utility to Mr. Rust. [For non-US readers, "Rustoleum" is a brand of
paint in aerosol cans used to terminate Rust-deposits.]
Jacques Guy
Mark Israel:
> Gian Carlo Macchi:
>
> > If the question refers to the plural in Latin, since each "curriculum"
> > usually refers to one "vita", I think the most correct plural is
> > "curricula vitae".
> each, should I translate "the swords of the gladiators" as _gladii
> gladiatoris_ or _gladii gladiatorum_? If the latter, how is
> _curricula vitae_ different?
Let us think a bit. Whose life? Something then, is understood, e.g.
curriculum vitae *meae* (or Flaviae, or...). Evidently, I have only one
life, not being a cat. So, if the plural refers to different versions
of one's life, yes, it should be: curricula vitae (meae). But if
it refers to the CV's of several people, it clearly seems that
"curricula vitarum (eorum)" is appropriate. In Latin, not in English
(I just noticed that this will appear on alt.usage.english). In English
I would say "ceevee" (and spell it CV or C.V.), and pluralize it as
"ceevees" (but I am not sure how I would spell that "s": mere s, or
apostrophe-s?)
DanaS64562
In fact, Troll-in-a-Box sounds like a terrific name for a Norwegian fast
food chain,
John K. Taber
Rose Platt wrote:
> What _is_ the plural of 'pizza'?
"pizze".
Ross Howard
kci...@cpcug.org (Keith C. Ivey) wrote:
>I've never heard anyone say "two espresso"; I have heard "two
>espressos".
... or "espressoes"? Maybe we should ask Danforth.
>Does "expresso" belong in the thread on modified
>spelling of loan words?)
Yes! A great example.
Ross Howard
Lars Eighner
In our last episode <322B15...@trl.telstra.com.au>,
Broadcast on alt.usage.english,sci.classics
The lovely and talented Jacques Guy <j....@trl.telstra.com.au> wrote:
>Let us think a bit. Whose life? Something then, is understood, e.g.
>curriculum vitae *meae* (or Flaviae, or...). Evidently, I have only one
>life, not being a cat. So, if the plural refers to different versions
>of one's life, yes, it should be: curricula vitae (meae). But if
>it refers to the CV's of several people, it clearly seems that
>"curricula vitarum (eorum)" is appropriate. In Latin, not in English
>(I just noticed that this will appear on alt.usage.english). In English
>I would say "ceevee" (and spell it CV or C.V.), and pluralize it as
>"ceevees" (but I am not sure how I would spell that "s": mere s, or
>apostrophe-s?)
This is a point of style upon which authorities have differed.
The most widely accepted rules in America are:
1) Use s alone with abbreviations formed of capital letters
without periods, thus
CVs.
Exceptions: With single capital letters that would form
unintended words, use appostrophe and s (A's, not As).
2) Abbreviations with periods take apostrophe s.
Ph.D.'s
3) Where possible to do so, omit periods in abbreviations
composed of capital letters. (So apply rule 1, above, except
for those forms in which the use of periods is essential
because of long-standing tradition.)
4) Abbreviations in lowercase form the plural with apostrophe
and s whether they use periods or not:
aka's c.v.'s
5) Figures and other symbols take s alone.
It is customary to provide for local consistency in parallel
uses in spite of the rules. So if you are writing of the
letters per se for some reason, it won't do to write of
Bs, Cs, Ds, and A's. You then have the choice of thinking
no reader will mistake "As" for "as" in this context, or
of using apostrophe and s throughout this passage for all
the plurals of the letters per se. Reasonable people will
find differing solutions in such difficult cases.
--
=Lars Eighner=4103 Ave D (512)459-6693==_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
= eig...@io.com =Austin TX 78751-4617_/ alt.books.lars-eighner _/
= http://www.io.com/~eighner/ _/ now at better ISPs everywhere _/
="Yes, Lizbeth is fine."==========_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.96083...@main.put.com>,
sil...@main.put.com says...
[snip]
>What _is_ the plural of 'pizza'?
In Italian "pizze", of course. But in English I suspect "pizzas".
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <504bm6$b...@riscsm.scripps.edu>, mis...@scripps.edu says...
[snip]
>In article <503lt9$a...@news.erl.sbs.de>, mac...@marina.scn.de
>(Gian Carlo Macchi) writes
>> If the question refers to the plural in Latin, since each "curriculum"
>> usually refers to one "vita", I think the most correct plural is
>> "curricula vitae".
> I find this principle strange. If two gladiators have one sword
>each, should I translate "the swords of the gladiators" as _gladii
>gladiatoris_ or _gladii gladiatorum_? If the latter, how is
>_curricula vitae_ different?
Mark, "vita" is the content of "curriculum"; instead "gladiator" is the
owner of the "sword".
By the way, in Italian I prefer, as with other foreign names or phrases,
to consider "curriculum vitae" as invariable. So I say "i curriculum
vitae". But I know that Italian facilitates this task (with respect to
English) since the article "i" before "curriculum" clearly indicates the
plural; the same do possible verbs referring to "curriculum", since third
singular and third plural persons are always distinct in Italian.
Ciao.
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
Rose Platt
On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Ross Howard wrote:
> >Does "expresso" belong in the thread on modified
> >spelling of loan words?)
>
> Yes! A great example.
I've only heard "expresso", never seen it; is it a common spelling in
coffee shops these days? (I'm not a coffee drinker, so I tend not to
frequent coffee-oriented establishments.) People in New York take coffee
extremely seriously, as indicated by the obscene number of "coffee bars",
so this particular place probably isn't a very good indicator either.
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960903...@main.put.com>,
sil...@main.put.com says...
}On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Ross Howard wrote:
}}}Does "expresso" belong in the thread on modified
}}}spelling of loan words?)
}}Yes! A great example.
}I've only heard "expresso", never seen it; is it a common spelling in
}coffee shops these days? (I'm not a coffee drinker, so I tend not to
}frequent coffee-oriented establishments.) People in New York take coffee
}extremely seriously, as indicated by the obscene number of "coffee bars",
}so this particular place probably isn't a very good indicator either.
Anyway expresso is a modified writing of a loan word, since the original
Italian word is "espresso".
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
Alec McKenzie
In article <50jdjb$496@news>, Gian Carlo Macchi <mac...@marina.scn.de> wrote:
>
>Anyway expresso is a modified writing of a loan word, since the original
>Italian word is "espresso".
And ... espresso is a modified writing of a loan word: it is from the English
word "express".
So we only need to drop the "o" from expresso to get back to where it started!
--
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Alec McKenzie - al...@nortel.co.uk | Nortel Technology, London Road, |
| Phone +44 1279 402159 | Harlow, Essex, England CM17 9NA |
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Keith C. Ivey
al...@bnr.co.uk (Alec McKenzie) wrote:
>And ... espresso is a modified writing of a loan word:
>it is from the English word "express".
According to whom? AHD says
Italian (_caffe`_) _espresso_, espresso (coffee), past
participle of _esprimere_, to press out, from Latin
_exprimere_ : _ex-_, ex- + _premere_, to press; see PRESS
W9NCD agrees. No mention of the English word "express" (though
of course it does come from the same Latin roots).
I was going to suggest that the Italians might use "espresso" in
referring to trains because of English influence, but my
dictionary says express train is "treno direttissimo".
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <50johr...@bhars12c.bnr.co.uk>, al...@bnr.co.uk says...
}In article <50jdjb$496@news>, Gian Carlo Macchi <mac...@marina.scn.de>
}wrote:
}}Anyway expresso is a modified writing of a loan word, since the
}}original Italian word is "espresso".
}And ... espresso is a modified writing of a loan word: it is from the
}English word "express".
}So we only need to drop the "o" from expresso to get back to where it
}started!
Of course, and since, AFAIK, the English word express is a modified
writing of the French word exprès, we can also drop the final "s" and be
nearer to the starting point. (-:
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
Mike Oliver
Keith C. Ivey wrote:
> I was going to suggest that the Italians might use "espresso" in
> referring to trains because of English influence, but my
> dictionary says express train is "treno direttissimo".
I have a vague memory that there is such a thing as "treno espresso"
but you wouldn't translate it as "express train" because it's really
not; the only thing slower is the "locale" which stops at every tiny
village and is very very slow indeed.
If you actually want to get anywhere more than 50 mi away in any
reasonable time you probably want to take the "Inter-city" which
is the fastest classification and costs a little more, but is still
pretty reasonable in 2nd class.
John K. Taber
Have we had enough of biscuits and pasta? If so, it's basta.
David Vanecek
Alec McKenzie (al...@bnr.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <50jdjb$496@news>, Gian Carlo Macchi <mac...@marina.scn.de> wrote:
: >
: >Anyway expresso is a modified writing of a loan word, since the original
: >Italian word is "espresso".
: And ... espresso is a modified writing of a loan word: it is from the English
: word "express".
: So we only need to drop the "o" from expresso to get back to where it started!
Interestingly enough, in Mexico it is often called "cafe express".
Now, the etymolgical question: is it "express"=="rapid" as in "express
train" or is it "express" as in "pressed out of [the grounds]" as in
[figurtive] "my express desire"? By etymology here I mean "what usage
of the (unique) Latin root was intended when the word came into
general use to describe that wonderful beverage?"
DVanecek
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <322DDB...@math.ucla.edu>, oli...@math.ucla.edu says...
>
>Keith C. Ivey wrote:
>
>> I was going to suggest that the Italians might use "espresso" in
>> referring to trains because of English influence, but my
>> dictionary says express train is "treno direttissimo".
>
>I have a vague memory that there is such a thing as "treno espresso"
>but you wouldn't translate it as "express train" because it's really
>not; the only thing slower is the "locale" which stops at every tiny
>village and is very very slow indeed.
In last timetable of our Ferrovie, "locale" trains do not appear, so it
seems that at present "espresso" trains are the slowest in Italy. Strange
fate for a word that should recall speed. By the way, we call "espresso"
that coffee since it is "prepared in a faster way than usual and when
somebody likes to have it".
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
Daan Sandee
In article <50mfr2$g9f@news>, mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) writes:
|>
|> In last timetable of our Ferrovie, "locale" trains do not appear, so it
|> seems that at present "espresso" trains are the slowest in Italy. Strange
|> fate for a word that should recall speed. By the way, we call "espresso"
|> that coffee since it is "prepared in a faster way than usual and when
|> somebody likes to have it".
Really ? According to the dictionaries, it is "espresso" because it is
pressed (rather than percolated.)
When I was in Venice, and needed to travel by local public transportation
(i.e., boat), I studied the Orario prominently displayed at the dock,
and found there were three classes of boats :
accelerato
diretto
direttissimo
As I wanted to extract as much fun out of the ride as possible, I decided
on the "accelerato" - the slow boat.
Daan Sandee
Burlington, MA san...@think.com
Ross Howard
san...@Think.COM (Daan Sandee) wrote:
>When I was in Venice, and needed to travel by local public transportation
>(i.e., boat), I studied the Orario prominently displayed at the dock,
>and found there were three classes of boats :
> accelerato
> diretto
> direttissimo
>As I wanted to extract as much fun out of the ride as possible, I decided
>on the "accelerato" - the slow boat.
Sounds like the condom manufacturer who marketed his product in three
sizes: large, extra-large and super-jumbo.
Ross Howard
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <50mnl6$6...@bone.think.com>, san...@Think.COM says...
}In article <50mfr2$g9f@news>, mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi)
}writes:
}}In last timetable of our Ferrovie, "locale" trains do not appear, so
}}it seems that at present "espresso" trains are the slowest in Italy.
}}Strange fate for a word that should recall speed. By the way, we call
}}"espresso" that coffee since it is "prepared in a faster way than
}}usual and when somebody likes to have it".
}Really ? According to the dictionaries, it is "espresso" because it is
}pressed (rather than percolated.)
I wrote the above definition without dictionary. After reading your mail I
was doubtful, so I checked Zingarelli's dictionary. Here is what I found,
that is similar to my definition. "espresso, adjective - quick, swift
[snip] Related to a food or to a drink prepared on the spot for whom
requiring it: piatto (dish) espresso, spaghetti espressi, caffè (coffee)
espresso." "espresso, masculine name - espresso coffee."
To indicate "pressed" we use "compresso", "pressato". I never heard
espresso with that meaning.
}When I was in Venice, and needed to travel by local public transportation
}(i.e., boat), I studied the Orario prominently displayed at the dock,
}and found there were three classes of boats :
} accelerato
} diretto
} direttissimo
}As I wanted to extract as much fun out of the ride as possible, I decided
}on the "accelerato" - the slow boat.
As you know we Italians are a bit strange.
Ciao.
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
Gian Carlo Macchi
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:37:25 -0400
At 14.37 05/09/96 -0400, Larry Preuss <lpr...@provide.net> wrote...
}In article <50jdjb$496@news>, mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi)
}wrote:
}}In article <Pine.BSF.3.91.960903...@main.put.com>,
}}sil...@main.put.com says...
[my snip]
}}}I've only heard "expresso", never seen it; is it a common spelling in
}}}coffee shops these days? (I'm not a coffee drinker, so I tend not to
}}}frequent coffee-oriented establishments.) People in New York take
}}}coffee extremely seriously, as indicated by the obscene number of
}}}"coffee bars", so this particular place probably isn't a very good
}}}indicator either.
[my snip]
}Gian Carlo,
}As a serious inquiry I would like to ask you which sense of the
}adjective "obscene" relates to an enumeration of coffee bars.
Larry, as most Italians, I like espresso very much (I'd just taken one,
unfortunately not in a bar). So I don't know why sil...@main.put.com
(Rose Platt) considers obscene having a lot of coffee bars somewhere;
probably because she isn't a coffee-drinker, as she said. And, as we
Italians say, "non sa cosa perde" (she doesn't know what she's missing).
Ciao.
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
Mike Oliver
Gian Carlo Macchi wrote:
> I wrote the above definition without dictionary. After reading your
> mail I was doubtful, so I checked Zingarelli's dictionary. Here is
> what I found, that is similar to my definition. "espresso, adjective
> - quick, swift [snip] Related to a food or to a drink prepared on the
> spot for whom requiring it: piatto (dish) espresso, spaghetti
> espressi, caffè (coffee) espresso." "espresso, masculine name -
> espresso coffee."
Yes, the "Grande dizionario Garzanti della lingua italiana" also
agrees with Gian Carlo.
> To indicate "pressed" we use "compresso", "pressato". I never heard
> espresso with that meaning.
However the Garzanti does indicate that "espresso" is the past
participle of "esprimere" which comes from Latin "exprimere"
meaning "spremere". So it's not too much of a jump from "caffe`
espresso" to "caffe` spremuto" (squeezed-out coffee) and I still wonder
if that might have been the original meaning.
Probably I'm being too much influenced by English, in which "express"
can mean "squeeze out" even if it's not an everyday usage.
Anton Sherwood
But is the singular of ravioli `raviolo' or `raviole'?
--
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com
I wasn't always anarcho-capitalist, you know. -- Ubi scriptum?
Charles Lieberman
I'm sorry, I suppose my last post doesn't really belong here--I neglected to
check the header before sending. Also, I'm a former aol'er!
--
Charles A. Lieberman ******
cali...@bu.edu
Brooklyn, New York, USA
Charles Lieberman
Gian Carlo Macchi (mac...@marina.scn.de) wrote:
: So I don't know why sil...@main.put.com
: (Rose Platt) considers obscene having a lot of coffee bars somewhere;
Because they're all virtually identical, and the customers are often people
who suffer from the delusion that they're interesting.
Laura LeFave
mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) wrote:
>}At present I don't remember anything like the biscuit you refers to,
>}that probably also exists in Italy and have a specific name. This
>}evening ill try to ask my son, more expert than me.
>Michael, incredibile dictu, after I posted the above reply, a collegue of
>mine entered my office and asked "Gian Carlo, do you like to take a
>coffe with me?". While we were drinking, he said: "Come on to my office,
>where I have biscuits". I couldn't believe what I saw, those
>biscuits looked exactly like those you described and contained almonds
>(but not chocolate). The name printed on the bag was "pastarelle" (of
>course plural of "pastarella") and my colleague informed me that this is
>their name in Molise, the region in southern Italy where they came from.
The pastries that Americans call "biscotti" reportedly have their
origin in Prato, where they are called cantucci. I have seen them in
Roma under the names cantucci di Prato and biscotti di Prato. Legend
has it that they were invented by the 14th century banker Datini, who
was the subject of Iris Origo's book "The Merchant of Prato".
In Tuscany they are normally eaten with Vin Santo at the end of a
meal, while in the United States they are usually eaten with coffee.
I am sure that they spread to other parts of Italy, especially to the
mezzogiorno. I am not surprised to see them under a different name in
Molise and would not be surprised to hear someone from Molise claim
them as a local specialty. This is fairly common in Italy. I have had
Romans assure me, for example, that lasagna is a purely Roman dish, a
claim that Bolognans would surely dispute.
In the United States, one finds many flavors of biscotti. I suspect
that the anise-flavored ones are a southern Italian variation. As far
as I know chocolate biscotti, glazed biscotti, etc. are American
inventions.
As others have noted they are very similar to mandelbrot, zweiback and
rusk. I don't think anyone has mentioned the Greek paxemadia, which is
also related. Of these they are closest to mandelbrot. The major
difference seems to be that mandelbrot contain butter, while cantucci
do not.
Tom Jacob (ja...@cs.unt.edu)
Department of Computer Sciences
University of North Texas
Larry Preuss
But why should this call forth the word "obscene", unless there is a
personal feeling much more troubling than boredom?
--
Larry Preuss
Peter Hullah
Jacques Guy wrote:
>
> But if
> it refers to the CV's of several people, it clearly seems that
> "curricula vitarum (eorum)" is appropriate. In Latin, not in English
> (I just noticed that this will appear on alt.usage.english). In English
> I would say "ceevee" (and spell it CV or C.V.), and pluralize it as
> "ceevees" (but I am not sure how I would spell that "s": mere s, or
> apostrophe-s?)
On a.u.e, you'd take care to write it "CVs", and not "CV's". :-)
And, IMHO, as we're talking about speaking English - on a.u.e -, the plural of
"Curriculum Vitae" is "Curriculum Vitaes", since nouns in the English
language take an "s" in the plural. (It is common practice nowadays to
consider that a noun-phrase be treated as a single entity. For example,
we now say "Director Generals" rather than "Directors General".)
Pete
--
Peter H.C. Hullah Technical Services
mailto:Peter....@eurocontrol.fr EUROCONTROL Experimental Centre
Phone: +33 1 69 88 75 49 BP 15, Rue des Bordes,
Fax: +33 1 60 85 15 04 91222 BRETIGNY SUR ORGE CEDEX
France
Marco Cucinato
On Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:31:53 GMT, das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood)
wrote:
>
>But is the singular of ravioli `raviolo' or `raviole'?
raviolo
And now, some pasta and other food...
raviolo ravioli
spaghetto spaghetti
lasagna lasagne (hard that <gn> sound, isn't it?)
pizza pizze
Most words ending in <A> have plurals in <E>
Most words ending in <O> have plurals in <I>
But I think that, for an english-speaking, plural of RAVIOLO is
RAVIOLOS...
In Italy we pronounce only the singular of english words
Il mio computer e' veloce - I miei computer sono veloci
My computer is fast - My computers are fast
So I think english speaking people will adapt Italian words to
english.
--
Marco Cucinato
Via Giovio 32
22040 Alzate Brianza (CO)
ITALY
Keith C. Ivey
m.cuc...@po.bcs.it (Marco Cucinato) wrote:
>lasagna lasagne (hard that <gn> sound, isn't it?)
Most Americans pronounce it the way they do the "ni" in "onion"
or the "ny" in "canyon". How does the Italian pronunciation
differ? I seem to recall from earlier discussions that some
British speakers do pronounce the "gn" as /gn/ rather than /nj/.
>But I think that, for an english-speaking, plural of RAVIOLO is
>RAVIOLOS...
That would be true if "raviolo" had been adopted into English,
but it hasn't been (as far as I can tell). "Ravioli" is a mass
noun in English. If required to speak about one raviolo, I
think, most Americans would say "a piece of ravioli"; some might
even say "a ravioli" (and those would also say "three
raviolis").
Richard Sabey
Peter Hullah <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
>And, IMHO, as we're talking about speaking English - on a.u.e -, the plural of
>"Curriculum Vitae" is "Curriculum Vitaes", since nouns in the English
>language take an "s" in the plural.
I'm gratified to read of someone else besides me who favours English-style
plurals over foreign-style ones for English words. But how widely would
you apply this principle?
Bacteria or bacteriums?
Fungi or funguses?
Algae or algas?
Paparazzi or paparazzos?
Beaux or beaus?
> (It is common practice nowadays to
>consider that a noun-phrase be treated as a single entity. For example,
>we now say "Director Generals" rather than "Directors General".)
How widely would you apply this principle?
Passers-by or passer-bies?
Courts martial or court martials?
Secretaries of State or Secretary of States?
--
R. Sabey, GPS Richar...@gpsemi.com
Michael Covington
Richard Sabey (Richar...@gpsemi.com) wrote:
: Peter Hullah <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
: >And, IMHO, as we're talking about speaking English - on a.u.e -, the plural of
: >"Curriculum Vitae" is "Curriculum Vitaes", since nouns in the English
: >language take an "s" in the plural.
: I'm gratified to read of someone else besides me who favours English-style
: plurals over foreign-style ones for English words. But how widely would
: you apply this principle?
: Bacteria or bacteriums?
: Fungi or funguses?
: Algae or algas?
: Paparazzi or paparazzos?
: Beaux or beaus?
None of those... but definitely "viruses" not "viri", because the
word had no attested plural in Latin!
--
Michael A. Covington http://www.ai.uga.edu/faculty/covington/
Artificial Intelligence Center <><
The University of Georgia Unless specifically indicated, I am
Athens, GA 30602-7415 U.S.A. not speaking for the University.
Frank Erskine
In article <513pkn$g...@nnews.OLdham.GPsemi.Com>, Richard Sabey
<Richar...@gpsemi.com> writes
>Peter Hullah <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
>>
>> (It is common practice nowadays to
>>consider that a noun-phrase be treated as a single entity. For example,
>>we now say "Director Generals" rather than "Directors General".)
>
>How widely would you apply this principle?
>Passers-by or passer-bies?
>Courts martial or court martials?
>Secretaries of State or Secretary of States?
Mothers-in-law or mother-in-laws?
--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland
http://www.g3wte.demon.co.uk/
Jeff Paulsen
In article <712j1DAp...@g3wte.demon.co.uk>, fr...@g3wte.demon.co.uk
says...
> In article <513pkn$g...@nnews.OLdham.GPsemi.Com>, Richard Sabey
> <Richar...@gpsemi.com> writes
> >Peter Hullah <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
> >>
> >> (It is common practice nowadays to
> >>consider that a noun-phrase be treated as a single entity. For example,
> >>we now say "Director Generals" rather than "Directors General".)
> >
> >How widely would you apply this principle?
> >Passers-by or passer-bies?
> >Courts martial or court martials?
> >Secretaries of State or Secretary of States?
>
> Mothers-in-law or mother-in-laws?
Spoonfulls or spoons-full?
In Portland, Oregon, USA, I find that it's "Director Generals", "Court
Martials", "Passer Bys", and so on, with the sole exception of
"Secretaries of State". I personally tend the other way, using the
"Spoons-full" phrasing more consistently.
This may be because I have read nothing written after 1850 these past few
months.
--
Sincerely,
Jeff Paulsen jpau...@intergroupmedia.com
Technical Director, InterGroupMedia
--
Ask me about cordless group response systems!
Alan J. Flavell
On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jeff Paulsen wrote:
> Spoonfulls or spoons-full?
>
> In Portland, Oregon, USA, I find that it's "Director Generals", "Court
> Martials", "Passer Bys", and so on, with the sole exception of
> "Secretaries of State". I personally tend the other way, using the
> "Spoons-full" phrasing more consistently.
Just how similar are these examples supposed to be?
In "Secretaries of State", there are several secretaries but probably
only one State. In Directors General, Courts Martial etc. the second
word is adjectival anyway - the unusual feature is that the adjective
follows the noun, which is unusual in English. In "Spoonsful[l]" there
is usally only one spoon, filled several times. Seems to me more
logical to call those several spoonfillings "spoonfuls" - when someone
says "spoonsfull" [my English master used to insist on it, although the
small dictionary here in the office only mentions spoonfuls] it is more
suggestive of several spoons each getting filled just once.
Surely you agree that it's cartloads, truckloads etc., irrespective of
whether it's the same cart filled several times, or several carts filled
once? Or would you have it as carts-load and trucks-load?
best regards
Armin Luis Hoempler
In article <dasherDx...@netcom.com>, das...@netcom.com says...
>
>
>But is the singular of ravioli `raviolo' or `raviole'?
>Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com
>I wasn't always anarcho-capitalist, you know. -- Ubi scriptum?
Curriculi vitae would be the plural..
Singular of Ravioli is Raviolo.
Ciao,
Armin Luis Hoempler
TsuiDB
Well, this would explain why a group I would have termed "Attorneys
General" address each other as "General." Unless that's how they really
think of themselves . . . shudder.
Stephanie
Peter Hullah
Richard Sabey wrote:
>
> I'm gratified to read of someone else besides me who favours English-style
> you apply this principle?
> Bacteria or bacteriums?
> Fungi or funguses?
> Algae or algas?
> Paparazzi or paparazzos?
> Beaux or beaus?
I think a lot of this depends on whether one usually hears the plural
or the singular. In the cases of 'bacteria', 'algae' and 'paparazzi' -
as
with 'graffiti' and others - it's the (foreign) plural which is more
often
heard and, therefore, more stuck in the mind. (This has lead to the
strange
case of some of these words now having their own plurals in 's' - e.g.
'medias'.)
For some people this is probably also the case for 'fungi' and 'beaux'
although I can't remember ever having said 'fungi' any more than I say
'formulae' or 'antennae'. French words which take an 'x' are strange
since
we have a tendency to write the 'x' but to pronounce an 's/z' - "there
are
many chateauZ on the Loire".
Paul Bogrow
Curricula.
John Soward Bayne
I see in the newspaper today that the Colorado Rockies'
first baseman, Andres Galarraga, has 135 RsBI, leading
the National League.
Jeff Paulsen
In article <5195ek$r...@nrtphc11.bnr.ca>, John_...@nt.com says...
> I see in the newspaper today that the Colorado Rockies'
> first baseman, Andres Galarraga, has 135 RsBI, leading
> the National League.
>
ROFL
There is a little known and extremely complex baseball metric called, I
believe, Bases Earned (could be wrong; it's really obscure). I don't
think anyone would say "5 Base Earneds". They might say "5 BEs", though.
Monte Haun
Marco Cucinato (m.cuc...@po.bcs.it) wrote:
: On Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:31:53 GMT, das...@netcom.com (Anton Sherwood)
: wrote:
:
: >
: >But is the singular of ravioli `raviolo' or `raviole'?
:
: raviolo
:
:
: And now, some pasta and other food...
:
: raviolo ravioli
: spaghetto spaghetti
: pizza pizze
:
: Most words ending in <A> have plurals in <E>
: Most words ending in <O> have plurals in <I>
: But I think that, for an english-speaking, plural of RAVIOLO is
: RAVIOLOS...
:
: In Italy we pronounce only the singular of english words
Don Blaheta
Quoth Paul Bogrow:
Is it not also "vitarum" then? (Of course, my Latin was two years in
high school, so....)
Don
-=-=-=-Don Blaheta-=-=-=-bla...@quincy.edu-=-=-=-dbl...@aol.com-=-=-=-
Anyone who uses the phrase "easy as taking candy from a baby" has never
tried taking candy from a baby.
-- Robin Hood
Ralph T. Edwards
In article <51877b$t...@news.gate.net>, er...@gate.net (Armin Luis Hoempler)
wrote:
> Singular of Ravioli is Raviolo.
Not in English.
--
R.T.Edwards r...@elmo.lz.att.com 908 576-3031
Adam Bucky
In article <rte-130996...@135.25.40.118>, r...@elmo.lz.att.com
(Ralph T. Edwards) wrote:
True. Somewhat. In English, ravioli has no singular (in Italian, the
singular is indeed raviolo).
------------------------------------------
Adam Bucky -- abu...@cc.swarthmore.edu
grand piano + mineshaft = C# or Bbmin!
Steve MacGregor
Armin Luis Hoempler <er...@gate.net> wrote in article
<51877b$t...@news.gate.net>...
<<Curriculi vitae would be the plural..
Singular of Ravioli is Raviolo.>>
How do you figure? I keep getting "Curricula vitae".
--
-- __Q Stefano MAC:GREGOR Mi dankas al miaj bonsxancigaj
-- -`\<, (s-ro) \ma-GREG-ar\ steloj, ke mi ne estas
-- (*)/ (*) Fenikso, Arizono, Usono supersticxulo.
------------ <http://www.indirect.com/www/stevemac/ttt-hejm.htm> ---
Bryan W. Lockett
>In article <323D18...@galactica.it>, Mark Bernardini
<ma...@galactica.it> >wrote:
>> Don Blaheta wrote:
> > > >Curriculi vitae would be the plural..
>> > > Curricula.
>> > Is it not also "vitarum" then? (Of course, my Latin was two years in
>> > high school, so....)
>No, because is one curriculum or many curricula of life, not of lifes.
Well, this would depend on the context, methinks. For example, if I had
for years been a chemist and then saw the light and studied to become a
classicist instead and come to the point of being a professor, I might
indeed publish
separate "curricula vitae," that is, accounts of the two different
curricula I had pursued in vita mea. On the other hand, I would refer to
the collective such accounts of me and my colleagues as our "curricula
vitarum," since more than one life would be in question... Seems a
reasonable explanation, IMHO...
BWL
--
Bryan W. Lockett
UCLA Department of Classics
Graduate Classicist-in-training
"Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit" --Seneca
Mark Bernardini
Don Blaheta wrote:
> > >Curriculi vitae would be the plural..
> > Curricula.
> Is it not also "vitarum" then? (Of course, my Latin was two years in
--
Марк Бернардини
Mark_Be...@rcm.inet.it
ma...@galactica.it
Peter Hullah
Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> Well, this would depend on the context, methinks. For example, if I had
> for years been a chemist and then saw the light and studied to become a
> classicist instead and come to the point of being a professor, I might
> indeed publish
> separate "curricula vitae," that is, accounts of the two different
> curricula I had pursued in vita mea.
'Vita Meae', I think.
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <50v99d$l...@library.airnews.net> Tom Jacob <ja...@cs.unt.edu>
says...
}mac...@marina.scn.de (Gian Carlo Macchi) wrote:
[snip]
}}those biscuits looked exactly like those you described and contained
}}almonds (but not chocolate). The name printed on the bag was
}}"pastarelle" (of course plural of "pastarella") and my colleague
}}informed me that this is their name in Molise, the region in southern
}}Italy where they came from.
}The pastries that Americans call "biscotti" reportedly have their
}origin in Prato, where they are called cantucci. I have seen them in
}Roma under the names cantucci di Prato and biscotti di Prato. Legend
}has it that they were invented by the 14th century banker Datini, who
}was the subject of Iris Origo's book "The Merchant of Prato".
}In Tuscany they are normally eaten with Vin Santo at the end of a
}meal, while in the United States they are usually eaten with coffee.
Tuscan and American way to eat them seem very good to me. I'll try both.
(-:
)I am sure that they spread to other parts of Italy, especially to the
}mezzogiorno. I am not surprised to see them under a different name in
}Molise and would not be surprised to hear someone from Molise claim
}them as a local specialty. This is fairly common in Italy.
Of course. And not only in Italy. Last week I was in France with my son
and in a supermarket in Bretagne I saw a poster inviting to taste
panettone, defined as the original speciality from Turin. In fact
panettoni (of course also panettone in Italian is countable, as biscotto)
sold in that market were made in Turin, but this cake is the symbol of
Milan.
Some days after in a supermarket in Bourgogne I looked for panettone in
order to see if the above definition was common in France. What I found
was a poster claiming that panettone is a Swiss cake.
Gian Carlo Macchi mac...@marina.scn.de
16 September 1996
Jeremy Pemberton
jpau...@intergroupmedia.com (Jeff Paulsen) wrote:
>In article <712j1DAp...@g3wte.demon.co.uk>, fr...@g3wte.demon.co.uk
>says...
>> In article <513pkn$g...@nnews.OLdham.GPsemi.Com>, Richard Sabey
>> <Richar...@gpsemi.com> writes
>> >Peter Hullah <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> (It is common practice nowadays to
>> >>consider that a noun-phrase be treated as a single entity. For example,
>> >>we now say "Director Generals" rather than "Directors General".)
>> >
>> >How widely would you apply this principle?
>> >Passers-by or passer-bies?
>> >Courts martial or court martials?
>> >Secretaries of State or Secretary of States?
>>
>> Mothers-in-law or mother-in-laws?
Oh, mother-in-law, I think. But only for polygamists
>Spoonfulls or spoons-full?
>In Portland, Oregon, USA, I find that it's "Director Generals", "Court
>Martials", "Passer Bys", and so on, with the sole exception of
>"Secretaries of State". I personally tend the other way, using the
>"Spoons-full" phrasing more consistently.
>This may be because I have read nothing written after 1850 these past few
>months.
>--
> Sincerely,
> Jeff Paulsen jpau...@intergroupmedia.com
> Technical Director, InterGroupMedia
>--
>Ask me about cordless group response systems!
Jeremy Pemberton
Jeremy Pemberton
John Soward Bayne <John_...@nt.com> wrote:
>I see in the newspaper today that the Colorado Rockies'
>first baseman, Andres Galarraga, has 135 RsBI, leading
>the National League.
>"Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@mail.cern.ch> wrote:
>>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jeff Paulsen wrote:
>>
>>> Spoonfulls or spoons-full?
>>>
>>> In Portland, Oregon, USA, I find that it's "Director Generals", "Court
>>> Martials", "Passer Bys", and so on, with the sole exception of
>>> "Secretaries of State". I personally tend the other way, using the
>>> "Spoons-full" phrasing more consistently.
>>
>>Just how similar are these examples supposed to be?
>>
>>In "Secretaries of State", there are several secretaries but probably
>>only one State. In Directors General, Courts Martial etc. the second
>>word is adjectival anyway - the unusual feature is that the adjective
>>follows the noun, which is unusual in English. In "Spoonsful[l]" there
>>is usally only one spoon, filled several times. Seems to me more
>>logical to call those several spoonfillings "spoonfuls" - when someone
>>says "spoonsfull" [my English master used to insist on it, although the
>>small dictionary here in the office only mentions spoonfuls] it is more
>>suggestive of several spoons each getting filled just once.
>>
>>Surely you agree that it's cartloads, truckloads etc., irrespective of
>>whether it's the same cart filled several times, or several carts filled
>>once? Or would you have it as carts-load and trucks-load?
>>
>>best regards
>>
>>
IMHO part of the problem here is our desire to make one of the world's
least regular languages behave as if it was regular. Let the anomalies
florish! (amonala floreunt?)
Jeremy Pemberton - a passer-by
Gian Carlo Macchi
In article <323066...@math.ucla.edu> Mike Oliver
<oli...@math.ucla.edu> says...
[snip]
}However the Garzanti does indicate that "espresso" is the past
}participle of "esprimere" which comes from Latin "exprimere"
}meaning "spremere". So it's not too much of a jump from "caffe`
}espresso" to "caffe` spremuto" (squeezed-out coffee) and I still
}wonder if that might have been the original meaning.
}Probably I'm being too much influenced by English, in which "express"
}can mean "squeeze out" even if it's not an everyday usage.
Mike, as you know, dictionaries are often not clear about etymology.
With regard to "espresso", used as adjective in the sense of "prepared
on demand" and used as masculine noun to indicated that special
coffee, Zingarelli's and Sandron's dictionaries, for example, say that
this particular meaning comes from the French "express". On the other
hand Devoto's-Oli's dictionary, probably the most authoritative today,
only mentions the Latin etymology "exprimere", via the arcaic Italian
word "spresso".
As you said, in Italian "espresso" is the past participle of the verb
"esprimere" (from Latin "exprimere"); so it shares with this verb the
(Italian) fundamental meaning, i.e. communicated, revealed, and
derived meanings, i.e. non-implicit, manifest, clear, expressly
prepared.
Of course "exprimere" means to "squeeze-out", but not only juice can
be squeezed-out from an orange, for example, but also a talk, a
concept etc. can be "squeezed-out", i.e. can "flow-out", from a
person.
Ciao.
Gian Carlo mac...@marina.scn.de
Bryan W. Lockett
In article <323D0C...@eurocontrol.fr>, Peter Hullah
<Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
> >Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> > ...in vita mea.
>
> 'Vita Meae', I think.
>
How do you figure? I'm honestly baffled how you arrived at that...
Robert Lewis
jc...@enterprise.net (Jeremy Pemberton) wrote:
<snip, snip, of various English-language plurals>
>
>
>IMHO part of the problem here is our desire to make one of the world's
>least regular languages behave as if it was regular. Let the anomalies
>florish! (amonala floreunt?)
>Jeremy Pemberton - a passer-by
>
Hear! Hear!
I happened across a relevant quote from Robert A. Heinlein,
the great writer of speculative fiction [aka 'science fiction']:
"The English language is the result of Norman soldiers trying
to make deals with Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate
than any of the other results."
Don Blaheta
Quoth Bryan W. Lockett:
> In article <323D0C...@eurocontrol.fr>, Peter Hullah
> <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
>
> > >Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> > > ...in vita mea.
> >
> > 'Vita Meae', I think.
>
> How do you figure? I'm honestly baffled how you arrived at that...
I think Peter was forgetting that "mea" already implied possession, and
stuck it in the genitive.
Don
-=-=-=-Don Blaheta-=-=-=-bla...@quincy.edu-=-=-=-dbl...@aol.com-=-=-=-
Winter is the season in which people try to keep the house as warm as
it was in the summer, when they complained about the heat.
Bryan W. Lockett
> In article <323D0C...@eurocontrol.fr>, Peter Hullah
> <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
>
> > >Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> > > ...in vita mea.
> >
> > 'Vita Meae', I think.
> >
> How do you figure? I'm honestly baffled how you arrived at that...
>
Okay, I still haven't heard anything from Mr. Hullah, and just want to
make sure I'm not going completely off my rocker here... can anyone else
explain to me a case for "vita meae"? I'm 99.44% sure of my construction
(as sure as I ever am about anything), and just want to make sure that 8
years of training in Latin haven't completely abandoned me in grad
school...
Thanks,
Peter Hullah
Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> <Peter....@eurocontrol.fr> wrote:
> > >Bryan W. Lockett wrote:
> > > ...in vita mea.
> > 'Vita Meae', I think.
> How do you figure? I'm honestly baffled how you arrived at that...
I failed latin O-level (the exams we took at 16 in the UK when I was
that age) and am certainly not up to agruing Latin with someone in a
University
Classics Department so I'll take your word that I'm wrong and you're
right.
I haven't touched Latin for over 20 years so my memory must be flaky!
My (obviously faulty) reasoning was based on the belief
1) that ego declined ego, me, mei, mihi, me where the genitive, mei,
agreed
with the gender and number of the object possessed.
2) that the feminine genitive singular ending was -ae.
I'm sure I remember
puella, puella, puellam, puellae, puellae, puella, (n,v,a,g,d,a)
puellae, puellae, puellas, puellarum, puellis, puellis.
So where did I go wrong? (Short please as this is read by a.u.e and they
won't
want long discussions about a.u.l!)
Bryan W. Lockett
Yes - in brief, as Don pointed at, the word in question here is not the
pronoun "ego", but rather the possessive adjective "meus, -a, -um". Mea
-> mea (with a long mark over the a) when modifying the ablative "vita".
Thanks for confirming my sanity... well, at least in this case. :)
Mike Page
Sorry I missed the beginning of this thread because our server was down.
FWIW, I asked the group the same question about a year ago because I had
the problem of heading up an appendix to a report which contained the
CVs of lots of different people. 'CVs' seemed too short as a title and
'Resumes' is not UK English. The consensus of several replies both
posted and e-mailed was that anglicised plurals 'curriculums vitae' or
'curriculum vitaes' were awkward as was the pedantic but technically
correct Latin plural 'curricula vitarum'. The majority vote was to go
with 'curricula vitae' despite it being poor Latin. That is what I
decided to do, even though it meant foregoing the opportunity to display
my erudition.
Mike Page
Mark Odegard
[posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
On 17 Sep 1996 10:43:42 GMT, Robert Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us>
wrote:
>I happened across a relevant quote from Robert A. Heinlein,
>the great writer of speculative fiction [aka 'science fiction']:
>"The English language is the result of Norman soldiers trying
> to make deals with Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate
> than any of the other results."
And the aging granddaughter of that Saxon barmaid and Norman soldier
is a very beautiful grande dame. She does have doubts about the
upcoming generation, though.
--
Mark Odegard ode...@ptel.net
The great orthographical contest has long subsisted between
etymology and pronunciation. It has been demanded, on one hand,
that men should write as they speak; but, as it has been shown
that this conformity never was attained in any language, and
that it is not more easy to persuade men to agree exactly in
speaking than in writing, it may be asked, with equal propriety,
why men do not rather speak as they write.
-- Samuel Johnson, "The Plan of an English Dictionary" (1747).
Colin Fine
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.96091...@hpplus01.cern.ch>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <fla...@mail.cern.ch> writes
>On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Jeff Paulsen wrote:
>
>> Spoonfulls or spoons-full?
>>
>> In Portland, Oregon, USA, I find that it's "Director Generals", "Court
>> Martials", "Passer Bys", and so on, with the sole exception of
>> "Secretaries of State". I personally tend the other way, using the
>> "Spoons-full" phrasing more consistently.
>
>Just how similar are these examples supposed to be?
>
>In "Secretaries of State", there are several secretaries but probably
>only one State. In Directors General, Courts Martial etc. the second
>word is adjectival anyway - the unusual feature is that the adjective
>follows the noun, which is unusual in English.
The point is not just that the construction is unusual: the phrase has
been effectively univerbated (I suggest the sequence is this: 'Martial'
and 'General' are not felt to be adjectives, and therefore there is no
recoverable internal structure to the phrase, which is thus treated as
atomic. Though I note that the accentuation of the original phrase is
maintained). "Secretary of State" is transparent as to both structure
and components.
--
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Robert Lipton
on.co.uk> <MPG.c9f74a0d...@news.teleport.com> <Pine.HPP.3.95.96091...@hpplus01.cern.ch> <5195ek$r...@nrtphc11.bnr.ca> <51k7uq$5...@news.enterprise.net> <51lvcu$9...@news.accessus.net> <51t7oe$t...@cronkite.polaristel.net>
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Mark Odegard (ode...@ptel.net) wrote:
: [posted to alt.usage.english & e-mailed]
: On 17 Sep 1996 10:43:42 GMT, Robert Lewis <rle...@brazosport.cc.tx.us>
: wrote:
: >I happened across a relevant quote from Robert A. Heinlein,
: >the great writer of speculative fiction [aka 'science fiction']:
: >"The English language is the result of Norman soldiers trying
: > to make deals with Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate
: > than any of the other results."
: And the aging granddaughter of that Saxon barmaid and Norman soldier
: is a very beautiful grande dame. She does have doubts about the
: upcoming generation, though.
Very aged. At least five hundred years old.
Bob
David Nadler
> 'Resumes' is not UK English. The consensus of several replies both
> posted and e-mailed was that anglicised plurals 'curriculums vitae' or
> 'curriculum vitaes' were awkward as was the pedantic but technically
> correct Latin plural 'curricula vitarum'. The majority vote was to go
> with 'curricula vitae' despite it being poor Latin. That is what I
> decided to do, even though it meant foregoing the opportunity to display
> my erudition.
>
> Mike Page
It's a pity that you had to choose between the pedantic
"curricula vitarum" and the incorrect "curricula vitae":
CV's, while a little short and informal, does finesse this
problem.
Why is it that we in the U.S. were willing to borrow the
French word while you in the UK were not?
dn
Tommy Kevin
I'm sorry I missed the beginning of this too.
FWIW, if I were job-hunting I might be heard to say, "I just sent out a whole shitload
of curricula vitae," there being but one vita in question, namely mine.
OTOH, after a particularly gratifying response to a recruitment ad I might say, "I just
got me a whole shitload of curricula vitarum," because in this case there would have
been as many vitae as curricula, namely a shitload.
Thanks for the break from a particularly dreary search. I have put alt.usage.english on
my subscription list.
Regards.
Tommy K