Et in Arcadia ego
Roger Squires
recent r.a.b thread, and now I note its Wimsey use in a story.
The on-line OED says it is a tomb inscription with a disputed
meaning, while the Divine Lady Spinster defines it as
'Et ego in Arcadia -- that is to say, one
doesn't enter the Church without undergoing
a classical education, and making the
acquaintance of much more worldly authors
even than Boccaccio.'
A Classical Dictionary I have refers to the worship
of Pan and Artemis by the pastoral Arcadians, and how they
considered themselves to be the most ancient people
in Greece, and I can kind of see how this might be a
phrase that someone like St. Augustine (or with a slight
snigger St. Gregorius, cf _The Good Sinner_) would utter
with a small sigh of remembrance. Anyway, I'm curious if
there is more info on this phrase and its associations.
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Karl Best
writes:
> Anyway, I'm curious if
> there is more info on this phrase and its associations.
The authors of _Holy Blood Holy Grail_ made quite a big deal about the phrase.
They tied it (as a password or some other key) to the secret association that
perpetuates and protects the lineage of Christ, etc.
--
Karl Best Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs ... __o the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah 801-429-3428 .. -\<, draws the faithful to their knees
kb...@doc.novell.com ...(_)/(_). to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl...@novell.com -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
SubGenius
> Anyway, I'm curious if
> there is more info on this phrase and its associations.
>
>Roger Squires
+---------------------------------------SubG-------------------------------+
On of the King Louis (Louises? Louii?) around the time of the French
Revolution (XV or XVI, I believe) was fond of a painting of a bunch of
shepards standing around a tomb bearing that inscription ("In Acadia, I...")
The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason,
which is why you hear this otherwise unquoteworthy phrase so much.
If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a discussion
would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average post.
-SubG
Francis Muir
Roger Squires writes...
Anyway, I'm curious if there is more info on this
phrase and its associations.
On of the King Louis (Louises? Louii?) around the time of
the French Revolution (XV or XVI, I believe) was fond of a
painting of a bunch of shepherds standing around a tomb
bearing that inscription ("In Acadia, I...")
Fowler, bless his cotton socks, is positively effusive on this phrase.
First note that it is Arcadia, not Acadia. The phrase translates to
"Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
Now to Fowler. It is an inscription on a tomb in a painting by Guercino
[1591--1666] and probably dates from 1623. Bartolommeo Schidoni [1560
--1616] wrote "Et ego in Arcadia vixi [I too have lived in Arcadia].
Poussin, Reynolds, and others used this phrase in their paintings.
E. Panofsky discusses the phrase in *PHILOSOPHY and HISTORY: Essays
Presented to E. Cassirer*, 1936. Fiar's fair; you have to check out
Panofsky yourself.
I chose the phrase as a Subject line for its connections to Cajun and
graveyards, both staples of New Orleans. It has special meaning for me
from its use by Evelyn Waugh in *BRIDESHEAD REVISITED* and Dorothy Sayers
in *GAUDY NIGHT*.
Roger, you may have been thinking of Louis XIII and one of the several
paintings by Poussin entitled "Shepherds of Arcadia". The French
Revolution was still a long way off.
Dr. Nosebody
Burt Voorhees
>Roger Squires
>rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
It, i.e., this phrase, shows up quite often
in a series of books by Robert Anton Wilson;
the Historical Illuminitus. Excellent books
for some fun.
The phrase is used as a code phrase in
various levels of Masonic initiation,
or at least that is the impression I got
from reading Wilson, who is the great
conspiracy theorist, and knows about
such things. The reference would seem
to be to the attainment of certain states
of consciousness.
So, Et in Arcadia Ego? I.e., have you
attained the state coded by Arcadia? Or,
without the question mark, a claim to
have done so. In any case, I doubt that
it has to do with entering the Church,
but Madonna might be there already.
bv
Roger Squires
>
>Fowler, bless his cotton socks, is positively effusive on this phrase.
>First note that it is Arcadia, not Acadia. The phrase translates to
>
> "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
>
>Now to Fowler. It is an inscription on a tomb in a painting by Guercino
>[1591--1666] and probably dates from 1623. Bartolommeo Schidoni [1560
>--1616] wrote "Et ego in Arcadia vixi [I too have lived in Arcadia].
>Poussin, Reynolds, and others used this phrase in their paintings.
>E. Panofsky discusses the phrase in *PHILOSOPHY and HISTORY: Essays
>Presented to E. Cassirer*, 1936. Fiar's fair; you have to check out
>Panofsky yourself.
>
Ok, I'll trot over to the library tomorrow.
>I chose the phrase as a Subject line for its connections to Cajun and
>graveyards, both staples of New Orleans. It has special meaning for me
>from its use by Evelyn Waugh in *BRIDESHEAD REVISITED* and Dorothy Sayers
>in *GAUDY NIGHT*.
>
Hmmm, I thumbed pretty carefully thru _GN_ and did not
see this phrase, at least not italicized or in chap. headings.
I saw it in _The Undignified Melodrama of the Bone of Contention_,
which quote seems to have no connection with death.
(I did see lots of phrases like "brood of spinsters" and
"dessicated and elderly virgin," though I also note that
despite many musings on the aberrant psychology of a Women's
College by Ms. Vane, the murderer was not among these...)
(And Chapter III has a good quote from Bacon that looks
like something Dick Diver should have paid attention to :) )
>Roger, you may have been thinking of Louis XIII and one of the several
>paintings by Poussin entitled "Shepherds of Arcadia". The French
>Revolution was still a long way off.
>
You mean SubG, of course. So far I see two meanings in
the phrase, one referring to death, one to Arcadia as
a general reference to Paganism.
> Dr. Nosebody
Roger Squires
rsqu...@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
James P. H. Fuller
>In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
-- jf
Nichael Cramer
>san...@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>> Any other instancesof Death or some synonym as a person's name?
> Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
Miss Thanatos in _The Loved One_.
Morticia Addams.
Mort Saul.
N
"I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds..."
Norman H Redington
James P. H. Fuller
>|> >In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>|> >middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>|> >of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
>|>
>|> Death Smith. Manufactures a deadly organic peanut butter
>|>
>|> -- jf
>|>
>I believe that's _Deaf_ Smith, a county in Texas.
No, no. Death Smith it is. They're about to branch out into
poliomargarine, a crippling butter substitute.
-- jf
SubGenius
>(SubGenius) writes:
>>The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason...
>>If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
>>significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a
>>discussion would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average
>> post.
>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>expert."
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
> SubG has clearly been reading Biagent & Leigh's "Holy Blood,
>Holy Grail", and swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. If he can find
>even *one* actual Masonic use of this phrase, I'll publicly apologize.
>Until he does, I contend that he's a gullible fool (B & L are pulling
>the wool over *his* eyes).
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
You are apparently asserting that a) you're not one of the sorts of Mason
for whom the phrase has any meaning and b) that you're privvy to all the
rites and practices of all kinds of Mason to ever have existed.
While I'll go along with the former, I find the latter difficult to believe.
When it rains, it pours.
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[deletia]
> Peter Trei
> Master, Wilder Lodge AF&AM
> Leominster, MA
> Editor: Masonic Digest
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[this space intentionally left blank]
"Everything you know
is wrong,"
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
Marc B.A. Read
>Yes, bless Fowler. You wrote:
>
> "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
>
>In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
>middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
>of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
>
Sorry to bring in an example not from literature, but real life... the
current bursar of Jesus College, Oxford is (I believe) Brigadier De'ath.
Note the the ' is an apostrophe, not an attempt at an accent! The name
is rare but not unique, and is pronounced Dee Ath.
Yours,
Marc
Neil Bernstein
: In article <1992Dec1.1...@ecrc.de> san...@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
: >Yes, bless Fowler. You wrote:
: >
: > "Even in Arcadia, there am I [Death]."
: >
: >and then mention Dorothy Sayers' _Gaudy Night_.
: >In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
: >middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
: >of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
: >
: >- Sanjiva
I don't remember the writer or the book because both were so mediocre, but he
created a forgettable character called "Todd Venedig" (ie, Mann's _Death In
Venice_).
- Neil Bernstein
Struggling Classics Major
at least until modern fiction improves
Anita Graham
> Yes, bless Fowler. You wrote:
>
>
> In _Murder Must Advertise_, we find that Wimsey's
> middle names are Death Bredon. Any other instances
> of Death or some synonym as a person's name?
It was pronounced `deeth' I believe. Possibly mentioned in "Murder Must
Advertise".
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anita Graham
an...@mincom.oz.au
Peter Trei
>Peter Trei writes...
>>(SubGenius) writes:
>>>The phrase also has special meaning for the various flavours of Mason...
>>>If you're interested, I could go into greater detail on the masonic
>>>significance of the phrase, but if you're not real curious such a
>>>discussion would be even more mind-pummelingly dull than my average
>>> post.
OK, SubG, I AM interested. Please go into mind-numbing detail,
and cite any primary sources. Regard this as a challenge.
>> I've been trying to think of a pithy, .sigfile-worthy way of
>>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>>expert."
>..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
>of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
Apparently, you regard yourself as so informed. On what basis do
you feel that you have better sources than I?
>> SubG has clearly been reading Baigent & Leigh's "Holy Blood,
>>Holy Grail", and swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. If he can find
>>even *one* actual Masonic use of this phrase, I'll publicly apologize.
>>Until he does, I contend that he's a gullible fool (B & L are pulling
>>the wool over *his* eyes).
>I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
>read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
Great - now you're citing secondary and tertiary sources as
gospel.
>You are apparently asserting that a) you're not one of the sorts of Mason
>for whom the phrase has any meaning and b) that you're privvy to all the
>rites and practices of all kinds of Mason to ever have existed.
>While I'll go along with the former, I find the latter difficult to believe.
SubG, my original challenge stands: provide a Masonic reference to
the use of this phrase. So far, all you have done is quote, at second
hand or worse, the Von Danikins of historical writing.
>> Peter Trei
>> Master, Wilder Lodge AF&AM
>> Leominster, MA
>SubGenius
In <2DEC1992...@rigel.tamu.edu> spb...@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>To explain (?) :
My (ptrei's) summation of SubG's complex post (I don't agree with all this,
but it's too long to quote in full):
1. Masons originated with building of King Solomon's Temple.
2. Templars, in 12C, allegedly discover "cool stuff" in ruins of KST.
3. Templars are unpopular due to allegations of various nasty practices,
scatter and form strongholds. One of these is in Provence, France.
4. In early 1300's Templars are suppressed.
5. Three hundred and fifty years later, Poussin paints "The Sheperds
of Arcadia", which includes "Et in Arcadia Ego..." on a tomb. The
background skyline *may* match a location in Provence.
6. Louis XV allegedly liked this painting.
back to full quotes...
>This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
>least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
Does anyone besides me have a problem with this? The connection
seems unbelievably tenuous: Louis may have liked a painting which may
have been painted in the same area where, centuries earlier, the
Templars lived, and who may have found stuff left by Masons in KST. If
anyone thinks that this is strong evidence that Louis was involved
with the Masons, then they're beyond help.
>It is, of course, a reasonably well-documented assumption that the
>various Masonic lodges in France had a pivotal role in getting the
>French Revolution going in 1789.
First, what's a "well-documented assumption"? To me, an
assumption is a belief in the absence of evidence. Second, if the
Masons were behind the French Revolution (very doubtful, seeing as
they suffered so badly during it), why would Louis be involved with
them? A deathwish? You are not making sense.
SubG, I once again ask you to name your sources, and give me
reason to believe they are trustworty.
Peter Trei
pt...@mitre.org
SubGenius
> OK, SubG, I AM interested. Please go into mind-numbing detail,
>and cite any primary sources. Regard this as a challenge.
+--------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
If you require primary sources, it'll take a couple weeks for me to provide
them [because a) I have other obligations outside of hunting through
volumes looking for a quote for r.a.b. and b) I don't carry around that
sort of material with me, and the college and local libraries are worse
than useless in these matters].
+--------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
>
>>> I've been trying to think of a pithy, .sigfile-worthy way of
>>>saying: "The only thing worse than a totally ignorant person is a
>>>person who has read ONE book on a topic, and now thinks himself an
>>>expert."
>
>>..unless its a chump in a frilly apron who thinks he's hep to the mysteries
>>of the universe and the SECRET HISTORY of the world.
> Apparently, you regard yourself as so informed. On what basis do
>you feel that you have better sources than I?
+--------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
Not at all. You take the standpoint of negative proof--that there is no
evidence to support the claim that the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego' has no
Masonic connection.
In order to disprove that, I only have to have one reference that you do not,
or credit one that you choose to discredit. That means that (at bare minimum)
I could get by with knowing only one source.
In order to prove your claim, you have to have ALL references on the subject
and demonstrate that there is no occurance of said phrase in any of them.
Negative proof is much more difficult than positive proof, and therefore the
substantiation behind it is much more difficult.
+---------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
>>I wish that it was clear to me, as I have no recollection of ever having
>>read the book. I have seen it referred to and quoted at length, however.
>
> Great - now you're citing secondary and tertiary sources as
>gospel.
+-------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
I wouldn't cite any history as `gospel,' in the literal or figurative
meanings of the word. I wasn't citing the book at all--you made the 1,000
metre conclusion jump that that was my source. My comment was that the
book was not unknown to me, but I was not getting my information from it.
In any case, I don't believe _Holy Blood, Holy Grail_ qualifies as a primary
source.
+-------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
[deletia]
>
>SubGenius writes:
>>To explain (?) :
>My (ptrei's) summation of SubG's complex post (I don't agree with all this,
>but it's too long to quote in full):
>1. Masons originated with building of King Solomon's Temple.
>2. Templars, in 12C, allegedly discover "cool stuff" in ruins of KST.
>3. Templars are unpopular due to allegations of various nasty practices,
> scatter and form strongholds. One of these is in Provence, France.
>4. In early 1300's Templars are suppressed.
>5. Three hundred and fifty years later, Poussin paints "The Sheperds
> of Arcadia", which includes "Et in Arcadia Ego..." on a tomb. The
> background skyline *may* match a location in Provence.
>6. Louis XV allegedly liked this painting.
>
>back to full quotes...
>
>>This causes some people to say that Louis XV was a Mason, or that he at very
>>least knew more about the Masonic activity occuring in France than he let on.
>
> Does anyone besides me have a problem with this? The connection
>seems unbelievably tenuous: Louis may have liked a painting which may
>have been painted in the same area where, centuries earlier, the
>Templars lived, and who may have found stuff left by Masons in KST. If
>anyone thinks that this is strong evidence that Louis was involved
>with the Masons, then they're beyond help.
+--------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Well, crickey, *I* have a problem with that, but I wasn't saying that it was
conclusive proof, but it is a thing some people believe.
The point of my post(s) to start with was to explain the literary connotation
of the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego,' and there are many examples of books in
which the phrase is used as an allusion to what I've outlined--true or not.
The use of said connotation is independent of its validity; if a writer thinks
that Masons say, "When it rains, it pours, dear friend," and then writes a
novel in which one character sez to another, "When it rains, it pours, dear
friend," the connotation is that the character is a Mason, regardless of
whether or not REAL Masons use the phrase.
+--------------------------------------SubG----------------------------------+
>>It is, of course, a reasonably well-documented assumption that the
>>various Masonic lodges in France had a pivotal role in getting the
>>French Revolution going in 1789.
>
> First, what's a "well-documented assumption"? To me, an
>assumption is a belief in the absence of evidence.
+------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
Call it a `belief in abscence of proof.'
As for a standard reference that will mention (albeit in passing) the Masonic
and Illuminati (that's the historical one, not any of the huge, mysterious
mega-organizations that permeate fiction) involvement in the French Revolution,
try the Encyclopedia Britanica.
+------------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
>Second, if the
>Masons were behind the French Revolution (very doubtful, seeing as
>they suffered so badly during it), why would Louis be involved with
>them? A deathwish? You are not making sense.
+-------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
I dunno, man--I didn't do it.
I think the rationale is that Louis XV, with his extensive network of spies
and so on, was aware of all the Masonic activity.
That he might have been a member is, as near as I can tell, mostly wild
speculation.
It is worth pointing out that Louis XV was buried for roughly 20 years before
the Revolution struck--Louis XVI and the dauphin and dauphine were markedly
different sorts of people than Louis XV was, and many of the associates of
Louis XV had little civility to spare for Louis XVI, and vice versa.
As far as `primary sources' go, I doubt very much if I could obtain documents
dating to the 1300's, as they tend to be rather rare in Texas. I will make
an effort, as my schedule allows, to obtain and bring to the attention of
you and our fellow r.a.b.ble sources as near to primacy as possible.
I wonder--would you consider the writing of, say, A.E. Waite, A. Crowley,
u.s.w. as `reliable' on this issue? I would point out that they (and many
other English and Continental writers of that period) were members of the
G.'.D.'. and O.T.O. which, although now little more than a joke, at the time
admitted only Masons of considerable (thirty-second degree?) standing.
-SubG
Bruce Tindall
In article <lhnd1f...@news.bbn.com>, ncr...@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
>Miss Thanatos in _The Loved One_.
>Morticia Addams.
Totie Fields.
Samuel F.B. Morse.
How about the last foreign minister of the USSR, Comrade Bezsmertnikh?
Bez = without;
smert = death;
nik = person, individual (as in sputnik, peacenik, beatnik, KZ-nik);
-ikh = plural ending (which case?);
Bezsmertnikh = "of/by/to the immortals"?
--
Bruce Tindall, Core Testing Mgr., SAS Institute Inc., Cary, N.C. 27513
SubGenius
>SubGenius writes:
> I think you are (accidentally) inverting this - I'm asking you to
>back up your claim that the phrase `Et in Arcadia ego' has a Masonic
>contention.
+--------------------------------------SubG---------------------------------+
Not quite--I pointed out that in stating that the phrase has and has never
had any Masonic connotation you make the implicit claim to be familiar with
all the material written about and by Masons as familiarity with that body
of knowledge is the only way one could authoritatively hold such an opinion.
+---------------------------------------SubG--------------------------------+
>>In order to disprove that, I only have to have one reference that you
>>do not, or credit one that you choose to discredit. That means that
>>(at bare minimum) I could get by with knowing only one source.
> Absolutely correct - I've given you the easy job. Can you come up
>with a single reference to this phrase in Masonic literature?
[Baigent und Leigh deletia]
>I'll make your task even easier: can you find ANY usage of the phrase
>`Et in Arcadia ego' with a Masonic connection which predates B&L?
[del]
>lets put the time limit at 1975.
[deletia]
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
No problem.
But, as I said, I have (at the moment) limited literary resources, and I
daresay most of the source material that is relevant to this discussion
is reasonably obscure.
However, if you are willing to accept as `proof' and pre-1975 reference to
the phrase as having a Masonic connotation you have made my task easier by
orders of magnitude, as there is at least one treatise of art history that
speculates along these lines in relation to Poussin's work that I believe
is pre-1975.
Please do not imagine me as being haggard and at the end of my rope, dangling
over the Caverns and Vaults of Eternity, because I cannot provide a reference
immediately. The problem is (as most problems are) one of proof and not one
of truth.
IMNSHO.
+-----------------------------------SubG------------------------------------+
[deletia]
> Peter Trei
> Editor:Masonic Digest
+------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
[this space intentionally left blank]
Yours etc.,
SubGenius
Philip Nikolayev
> How about the last foreign minister of the USSR, Comrade
> Bezsmertnikh? Bez = without; smert = death; nik = person,
> individual (as in sputnik, peacenik, beatnik, KZ-nik); -ikh = plural
> ending (which case?); Bezsmertnikh = "of/by/to the immortals"?
Bezsmertnykh is a common Ukrainian name, and formally means
exactly whay you say it does ('of the immortals'; plural, genetive).
> Bruce Tindall, Core Testing Mgr., SAS Institute Inc., Cary, N.C. 27513
Philip Nikolayev
nik...@husc.harvard.edu
Volkov Alexander Nikolaevich
> > How about the last foreign minister of the USSR, Comrade
> > Bezsmertnikh? Bez = without; smert = death; nik = person,
^^^^ There isn't like sound in English.
> > individual (as in sputnik, peacenik, beatnik, KZ-nik); -ikh = plural
> > ending (which case?); Bezsmertnikh = "of/by/to the immortals"?
> Bezsmertnykh is a common Ukrainian name, and formally means
> exactly whay you say it does ('of the immortals'; plural, genetive).
and adjective!
I think, it's correct. But I think, that -ikh ( Bessmertnykh )
^^^
signify Polish name. Here in CIS there are many x-Polish. The some was
repressed ( both in Soviet- period (Ural, Siberia) and in pre-Soviet period ),
some was migrants ( btw, there are many Polish migrants in West Ukraine, in
Belorussia, in Lituania), some are the migrant's descendants .
Bessmertnik, Bessmertnyuk - this word is more like the Ukrainian name ( for
example - Kravchyuk;-), but it's well-known ( here in Russia, in any way)
that -ykh ,-ikh, -iy are most frequent endings of the Polish name
( unfortunately, I don't know why ). Also, maybe, this name was gradualy
changed, but I'm sure that first version of this name was Polish name.
It's all, in the meanwhile...
Thanks,
Alexander Wolkow (or Volkov).
ps. Excuse my poor English...