The Thyrsus of Dionysus
Sulla
primary source explaining its origin, or explain the significance of the
fir tree to Bacchus?
--
M. Sulla Su...@globaldialog.com
Nin Pingwashagid.
D.D. MacPherson
Su...@globaldialog.com (Sulla) wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the etymology of the word "thyrsus", or cite a
>primary source explaining its origin, or explain the significance of the
>fir tree to Bacchus?
I hope I'm not being obvious and missing your point, but I looked it up in my
Liddell and Scott and it's just straight from the Greek and simply says, "a
wand wreathed in ivy and vine leaves with a pine-cone at the top".
George Robertson
: In article <Sulla-15049...@s21a.globaldialog.com>,
L. & S. also say it's "probably a loan-word". An obvious place to start
looking for more info. here is E.R. Dodds, *Euripides: Bacchae* (2nd ed.,
Oxford 1960), where I see that on p. 82 he refers to a German
dissertation on the thyrsus in Greek and Roman literature and art, as
well as other articles. Seems that the Bacchic significance of the
fir-tree may arise from a misunderstanding: originally the thyrsus was just
a stick with a bunch of ivy leaves at the tip, but "In later art the
bunch of leaves is more and more stylized and simplified until it
eventually looks like, and is mistaken for, a pine-cone" (Dodds,
apparently following Papen's dissertation). I don't know what current
thinking on this subject is, but Dodds' book is probably as good a
place as any to start reading up on Dionysos etc.
Ber...@dynanet.com
The resemblance the thyrsus defined by Lydell and Scott would have borne to
the phallus that worshippers of Dionysus carried in their processions might
lead one to believe that the definition is correct, considering especially
that: a) the Latin word for an acorn "glans" also refers to the head of the
penis (because one resembles the other); and, b) the pine-cone is a type of
"acorn", especially in the sense that the hypothesized Indo-European root of
"acorn" "*og-" presumably referred broadly to fruits and berries. The thyrsus
defined by Dodds may have been another version of the L & S thyrsus; but, in
either case, the thyrsus and phallus seem to have been morphed one from the
other.
Although it's difficult to conclude which came first, the numerous phallic
figurines that appeared in the late Paleolithic period suggest that
prehistoric people worshipped these phalli as symbols of the deity. Otoh, the
thyrsus, having been formed from naturally occurring objects, could be
considered a remnant of an even older form of nature worship which the phallus
came to symbolize only later.
L. & S.'s belief that "thyrsus" is "probably a loan-word" would appear to be
groundless as the inference that the thyrsus was apparently lit and carried as
a form of spiritual protection could be invoked to explain why the root
("thur-") of "thyrsus": 1) meant "incense"; 2) yielded "thureos", for "a
shield"; and, came into Christianity as a) the word "thurible", for "a censer
used [to ward off evil spirits] in certain ecclesiastical ceremonies or
liturgies", as well as, b) the word "thurifer" for "an acolyte who carries a
'thurible'. Of course, incense has to be burned, and this fact can be invoked
to explain why "thur-" also reveals a kinship with: 1) Greek "therm", heat;
and, 2) Thera/Thira, for the well known volcanic, hence, "thermal" island
southeast of Greece.
"Thera-" also happens to be the root of "therapeia", meaning "to treat
medically"; and, therapy was symbolized by the caduceus, another type of
"magic wand" comprising snakes wrapped around a pole surmounted by a "head".
Accordingly, the caduceus might be considered still another morph of the
thyrsus/phallus.
Steve Berlant
George Robertson
:
: L. & S.'s belief that "thyrsus" is "probably a loan-word" would appear to be
: a form of spiritual protection could be invoked to explain why the root
: ("thur-") of "thyrsus": 1) meant "incense"; 2) yielded "thureos", for "a
: shield"; and, came into Christianity as a) the word "thurible", for "a censer
: used [to ward off evil spirits] in certain ecclesiastical ceremonies or
: liturgies", as well as, b) the word "thurifer" for "an acolyte who carries a
: 'thurible'. Of course, incense has to be burned, and this fact can be invoked
: to explain why "thur-" also reveals a kinship with: 1) Greek "therm", heat;
: and, 2) Thera/Thira, for the well known volcanic, hence, "thermal" island
: southeast of Greece.
: "Thera-" also happens to be the root of "therapeia", meaning "to treat
: medically"; and, therapy was symbolized by the caduceus, another type of
: "magic wand" comprising snakes wrapped around a pole surmounted by a "head".
: Accordingly, the caduceus might be considered still another morph of the
: thyrsus/phallus.
: Steve Berlant
:
Much of the above seems to be based on the assumption that all words with
the combination "th-[vowel]-r" must be somehow "etymologically" related.
The Greek "thuos" (sacrifice) comes from the verb "thuo", and in none of
the related Greek words (thusia, thuma, thustas, ktl.) is there the "r"
which is found in "thyrsus" (and in "thureos", which itself derives from
"thura" ("door") because of the shape of the shield). The "r" in
"thurible", "thurifer", etc. arises from the Latin declension of "t(h)us"
(from Greek "thuos", above) which, like the words "mus" and "rus", takes
an "r" at the end of its stem (genitives "t(h)uris", "muris", "ruris")
and can't be used as evidence that, e.g., "thursos" and "thureos" are
cognate.
To go on and say, as Berlant does, that "'thur-' also reveals a kinship with
... 'therm' ... and ... Thera/Thira" and thence to the statement that
"'Thera-' also happens to be the root of 'therapeia'" is misleading
and philologically unsound. Of course the caduceus and thyrsus are both
powerful protective symbols, as things like sticks and clubs tend to be,
but this shouldn't lead us into linguistic flights of fancy.
Richard M. Alderson III
>L. & S.'s belief that "thyrsus" is "probably a loan-word" would appear to be
>groundless as the inference that the thyrsus was apparently lit and carried as
>a form of spiritual protection could be invoked to explain why the root
>("thur-") of "thyrsus": 1) meant "incense"; 2) yielded "thureos", for "a
>shield"; and, came into Christianity as a) the word "thurible", for "a censer
>used [to ward off evil spirits] in certain ecclesiastical ceremonies or
>liturgies", as well as, b) the word "thurifer" for "an acolyte who carries a
>'thurible'. Of course, incense has to be burned, and this fact can be invoked
>to explain why "thur-" also reveals a kinship with: 1) Greek "therm", heat;
>and, 2) Thera/Thira, for the well known volcanic, hence, "thermal" island
>southeast of Greece.
Except that 1) *u does not interchange with *e or *o in the prehistory of Greek
and 2) the name of the island is _the:ra_, not _thera_.
There is a science to etymology, and this is not it.
--
Rich Alderson You know the sort of thing that you can find in any dictionary
of a strange language, and which so excites the amateur philo-
logists, itching to derive one tongue from another that they
know better: a word that is nearly the same in form and meaning
as the corresponding word in English, or Latin, or Hebrew, or
what not.
--J. R. R. Tolkien,
alde...@netcom.com _The Notion Club Papers_
Ber...@dynanet.com
robe...@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (George Robertson) wrote:
>Ber...@dynanet.com wrote:
>:
>: L. & S.'s belief that "thyrsus" is "probably a loan-word" would appear to
>: groundless as the inference that the thyrsus was apparently lit and carried
as
>: a form of spiritual protection could be invoked to explain why the root
>: ("thur-") of "thyrsus": 1) meant "incense"; 2) yielded "thureos", for "a
>: shield"; and, came into Christianity as a) the word "thurible", for "a
censer
>: used [to ward off evil spirits] in certain ecclesiastical ceremonies or
>: liturgies", as well as, b) the word "thurifer" for "an acolyte who carries
a
>: 'thurible'. Of course, incense has to be burned, and this fact can be
invoked
>: to explain why "thur-" also reveals a kinship with: 1) Greek "therm", heat;
>: and, 2) Thera/Thira, for the well known volcanic, hence, "thermal" island
>: southeast of Greece.
>
>: medically"; and, therapy was symbolized by the caduceus, another type of
>: "magic wand" comprising snakes wrapped around a pole surmounted by a
"head".
>: Accordingly, the caduceus might be considered still another morph of the
>: thyrsus/phallus.
>
>combination "th-[vowel]-r" must be somehow "etymologically" related.
Given the generally accepted irrelevance of vowels in etymological analyses,
there are certainly adequate grounds for believing that: 1) such words are in
fact cognate; and, 2) the failure to have recognized that cognation results
from not having considered the semantic broadness "th_[vowel]_r" would have
had to the poetically/mythically/figuratively/metaphorically minded Greeks.
The Greek "thuos" (sacrifice) comes from the verb "thuo", and in none of the
related Greek words (thusia, thuma, thustas, ktl.) is there the "r" which is
found in "thyrsus" . . .
Accordingly, one might conclude_ in accord with the following analysis_ that
"thyrsus" was not derived from "thuos".
>(and in "thureos", which itself derives from "thura" ("door") because of the
shape of the shield.
Imho, the failure to have realized that thyrsus was_ as it clearly reveals_
cognate with both of the aforementioned words results from having "projected"
the literalness of the modern psyche on to the poetic
mythical/figurative/metaphorical Greek psyche. More precisely, "thura" has
generally been taken for the purpose of etymological analysis to have referred
only to "a movable structure used to close off an entrance, typically
consisting of a panel that swings on hinges or that slides or rotates". In the
Greek psyche, however, "thura" would have also connoted "door" in the
metaphorical sense of the word extant in, for example, the following phrases
from the American Heritage's entry for "door":
a) "at (one's) door_ i.e., within one's sphere of accountability;
b) close the door on or shut the door on_i.e., to refuse to allow for the
possibility of;
c) leave the door open_ to allow for the possibility of;
d) show (someone) the door_ to eject (someone) from the premises. Indeed,
perhaps nowhere did the figurative significance of the thursus vis a vis a
door come down through history more evident than in the Iobacchic practice of
placing the thyrsus next to a disorderly person as a means of "showing him the
door".
As a symbol and/or actual embodiment of Dionysius, "thyrsus" would have also
been associated with "thura" in the same metaphorical sense that Christ states
"I am the door." (John 10:9)
> The "r" in "thurible", "thurifer", etc. arises from the Latin declension of
"t(h)us" (from Greek "thuos", above) which, like the words "mus" and "rus",
takes an "r" at the end of its stem (genitives "t(h)uris", "muris", "ruris")
and can't be used as evidence that, e.g., "thursos" and "thureos" are cognate.
In view of the preceding analysis, i question the beliefs that a) "thurible"
was derived from the Latin declension of "t(h)us", as opposed to Greek
"thur-"; and, b) "thoreos" was derived from "thura" because "of the shape of
the shield", as opposed to the more basic protective nature of both
structures. As i noted, incense was also a type of spiritual protection.
Hence, imo, there are more than adequate semantic and phonetic grounds for
hypothesizing that all three words are cognate.
>To go on and say, as Berlant does, that "'thur-' also reveals a kinship with
'therm' ... is misleading and philologically unsound.
Greek "thumeama" meant "incense"; "thumeato" meant "censer"; "thumono" meant
"infuriate", hence, "incense" There are, hence, adequate grounds for
hypothesizing that "therm_" (heat) was formed from ""thur-" under the
influence of "thum_".
> and ... Thera/Thira" and thence to the statement that "'Thera-' also happens
to be the root of 'therapeia'"
It should be noted that "incense", as it reveals, labeled a method of
pervading a room with the scent by which the presence of the deity was known
in prehistory. However, Latin "incendere" was multi-vocal, in the sense that
it was also used to associate burning incense with spiritually "incensing"
ceremonial participants_ as the synonymity of "incendere" and "accendere"
together with the homonymity of "accendere" and "ascendere" shows.
As "incensing" was, thus, clearly a ceremonial act that was part of a
spiritual therapy, and spiritual therapy was in antiquity inseparable from
psychological & physical therapy, there are, thus, also adequate semantic and
phonetic grounds for hypothesizing that "thera-" was still another member of
this cluster.
>Of course the caduceus and thyrsus are both powerful protective symbols, as
things like sticks and clubs tend to be, >but this shouldn't lead us into
linguistic flights of fancy.
Au contraire. The foregoing "flights of fancy" find a great deal of support in
their ability to explain why the phonetics of the aforementioned words clearly
reveal their cognation, and to elucidate the components of the ancient
psychological gestalt the thyrsus symbolized.
Steve Berlant
Tiro TypeWorks
>Au contraire. The foregoing "flights of fancy" find a great deal of support in
>their ability to explain why the phonetics of the aforementioned words clearly
>reveal their cognation, and to elucidate the components of the ancient
>psychological gestalt the thyrsus symbolized.
Without going into your philologic analysis -- without needing to go
into your analysis -- the word that is missing from every paragraph is
MAY. You present a good deal of speculative evidence to suggest that
the words you are discussing MAY be cognate. It remains, however, a
flight of fancy to suggest that your own speculations 'clearly reveal'
this possible cognation. As to your dictionary diggings, you would do
better to cite some Greek texts supporting your extrapolation of the
rather slight 'door' metaphor. By slight, I mean hardly substantial
enough to imply anything as obviously profound as an 'ancient
psychological gestalt'. You have provided a not uninteresting
interpretation - albeit founded on shaky etymology and a weak
poeticism that few Greek poets would have allowed themselves -- but
you go too far in insisting that this is anything other than an
interpretation and a mere possibility.
By the way, one of the enduringly endearing features of classical
writers is that they refrained from using phrases like 'psychological
gestalt'.
John Hudson
Tiro TypeWorks
Vancouver, BC
ti...@portal.ca
http://www.portal.ca/~tiro
Richard M. Alderson III
>Given the generally accepted irrelevance of vowels in etymological analyses,
>there are certainly adequate grounds for believing that: 1) such words are in
>fact cognate; and, 2) the failure to have recognized that cognation results
>from not having considered the semantic broadness "th_[vowel]_r" would have
>had to the poetically/mythically/figuratively/metaphorically minded Greeks.
>The Greek "thuos" (sacrifice) comes from the verb "thuo", and in none of the
>related Greek words (thusia, thuma, thustas, ktl.) is there the "r" which is
>found in "thyrsus" . . .
You obviously are referring to Dr. Johnson's dictum that in etymology, "the
consonants count for little and the vowels for nothing."
What you seem to have missed is that he was engaging in heavy sarcasm, with an
eye to the disparagement of all those fanciful etymologies to which the targets
of his comment had subjected the world. He proceeded to demonstrate how one
correctly etymologizes words in his demonstration of the relationships of what
we now call the Germanic languages.
Ber...@dynanet.com
In article <4lgsuf$8...@thoth.portal.ca>,
ti...@portal.ca (Tiro TypeWorks) wrote:
>Ber...@dynanet.com wrote:
>
>>Au contraire. The foregoing "flights of fancy" find a great deal of support
in
>>their ability to explain why the phonetics of the aforementioned words
clearly
>>reveal their cognation, and to elucidate the components of the ancient
>>psychological gestalt the thyrsus symbolized.
>
>into your analysis -- the word that is missing from every paragraph is
>MAY.
That my analysis is but one interpretation of a cluster of phonetically
related words_ which may or may not be valid_ i assumed was readily apparent
to all but the most naive reader.
Otoh, my failure to probabilistically qualify my statements could also be
considered to conform to "convention"; for, having examined the evidentiary
basis of a large number of etymologies over the years, i can state with
impunity that all but the most trivial proffered as fact
hypotheses/assumptions/interpretations/beliefs that varied from the very
probable to the highly improbable. Indeed, were it not for my knowledge of
this fact, why would i have even bothered to proffer an alternative etymology_
which, in your admitting that it "MAY" be valid, implicitly agrees with my
belief that the accepted etymology MAY NOT be valid.
>You present a good deal of speculative evidence to suggest that
>the words you are discussing MAY be cognate. It remains, however, a
>flight of fancy to suggest that your own speculations 'clearly reveal'
>this possible cognation.
My analysis doesn't rest only on the evidence and arguments contained therein.
To the contrary, the analysis is but a single strand of a much larger cloth
woven over many years from cross-cultural linguistic, archaeological, and
mythological records, much of which extends back to the Upper Paleolithic when
the prototypical forms of the Dionysian phallus/thyrsus first appeared as the
phallically shaped figurines commonly known as "fertility goddesses".
It is impossible for me to bring any of a number of the many related threads
to bear on this discussion for a number of reasons. Suffice it to say,
however, that when my analysis of the thyrsus is viewed as part of this much
bigger cloth, both reveal themselves to be more than just possible.
>As to your dictionary diggings, you would do
>better to cite some Greek texts supporting your extrapolation of the
>rather slight 'door' metaphor.
Although this would certainly be interesting, i'm_ candidly_ not familiar
enough with the classics to do it. Moreover, I suspect that such an exercise
might simply end up moving the battle ground from the field of etymological
analysis to the even shakier field of literary criticism_ where virtually
anything goes.
By slight, I mean hardly substantial
>enough to imply anything as obviously profound as an 'ancient
>psychological gestalt'.
>You have provided a not uninteresting interpretation
I'm not sure whether this is a contrapositive way of saying that my
interpretation was interesting; or, a litotes, understating the same thing.
>albeit founded on shaky etymology
As i said, when the hypotheses/assumptions/interpretations/beliefs that ground
most etymologies are examined for their evidential value, my etymology is no
more shakier.
> and a weak
>poeticism that few Greek poets would have allowed themselves
This MAY very well be the case_ as i suspect that the words in question were
coined in prehistory by mystical, shamanic poet/priests long before their
descendants recorded the words' adulterated and relatively secularized, hence,
literalized forms.
-- but
>you go too far in insisting that this is anything other than an
>interpretation and a mere possibility.
>
>By the way, one of the enduringly endearing features of classical
>writers is that they refrained from using phrases like 'psychological
>gestalt'.
Perhaps "refrained" isn't a proper term either; i.e., because, AFAIK, the
classical Greek writers didn't even have phrases like "psychological gestalt"
to refrain from using. This particular term wasn't coined until just prior to
WWI to oppose the movement in experimental psychology that separated mind from
body, which_of course_ the Greeks didn't do either.
Nevertheless, as "psychological gestalt" refers to the fact that percepts are
determined by context, configuration, and meaning, the term is extremely
appropriate, valuable, and descriptive of the way i believe the Greek
poets differentiated between the literal and metaphorical meanings of the
words in question.
George Robertson
i$6ug...@ppp28.dynanet.com>:
Distribution:
Ber...@dynanet.com wrote:
: In article <4lgsuf$8...@thoth.portal.ca>,
: ti...@portal.ca (Tiro TypeWorks) wrote:
:
: >As to your dictionary diggings, you would do
: >better to cite some Greek texts supporting your extrapolation of the
: >rather slight 'door' metaphor.
: Although this would certainly be interesting, i'm_ candidly_ not familiar
: enough with the classics to do it.
[snip]
: >
: >By the way, one of the enduringly endearing features of classical
: >writers is that they refrained from using phrases like 'psychological
: >gestalt'.
: Perhaps "refrained" isn't a proper term either; i.e., because, AFAIK, the
: classical Greek writers didn't even have phrases like "psychological gestalt"
: to refrain from using. This particular term wasn't coined until just prior to
: WWI to oppose the movement in experimental psychology that separated mind from
: body, which_of course_ the Greeks didn't do either.
: Nevertheless, as "psychological gestalt" refers to the fact that percepts are
: determined by context, configuration, and meaning, the term is extremely
: appropriate, valuable, and descriptive of the way i believe the Greek
: poets differentiated between the literal and metaphorical meanings of the
: words in question.
"Etymological" analysis is impossible without intimate knowledge of the
languages and texts in question. If you're "_candidly_ not familiar
enough with the classics" to find texts to support your theories, on what
do you base your opinion of the way the Greek poets wrote?