homer's odyssey: cyclops
Gord Deinstadt
>Vanity as a part of Odysseus' character
Indeed, why did he, despite people grabbing him round the throat
(as it were), insist on telling his real name to Polyphemos?
Cathy would say "Aaaack! My brain has been taken over by"
(something self-destructive). In other words, clever people are
often very stupid.
--
Gord Deinstadt ad...@freenet.carleton.ca
jules n. binoculas
he was already in his ship, on the way home (he thought) and
he had a surge of hubris -- he was very angry
and he wanted the cyclops to know it was he who outwitted him --
that's consistent with odysseus' pride --
but that's more impetuosity than stupidity -- however, going
into the cyclop's cave when the cyclops wasn't there, just
to 'see who this giant was' is ridiculous and out of character,
even for a risk-taker like odysseus --
at that point, they weren't hungry, or angry, or being
chased -- it was a pointless digression for odysseus -- and
there's no indication that odysseus was looking for any
buried treasure or anything -- it seems totally arbitrary,
even given odysseus' hubris --
i want to know if there's anything in the story itself which
accounts for this arbitrary digression --
>DATE: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 07:11:35 GMT
>FROM: Gord Deinstadt <ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
GLENN G. PARSONS
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>From: "jules n. binoculas" <p00...@psilink.com>
>Newsgroups: sci.classics
>Subject: Re: homer's odyssey: cyclops
>Date: Sat, 09 Apr 94 02:28:08 -0700
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>i can understand why odysseus yelled his name to polyphemus --
>he was already in his ship, on the way home (he thought) and
>he had a surge of hubris -- he was very angry
>and he wanted the cyclops to know it was he who outwitted him --
>that's consistent with odysseus' pride --
>but that's more impetuosity than stupidity -- however, going
>into the cyclop's cave when the cyclops wasn't there, just
>to 'see who this giant was' is ridiculous and out of character,
>even for a risk-taker like odysseus --
>at that point, they weren't hungry, or angry, or being
>chased -- it was a pointless digression for odysseus -- and
>there's no indication that odysseus was looking for any
>buried treasure or anything -- it seems totally arbitrary,
>even given odysseus' hubris --
>i want to know if there's anything in the story itself which
>accounts for this arbitrary digression --
Once again, I would suggest that for Odysseus, being adventurous, glory-
seeking, and somewhat arrogant is not at all out of character, and this is
the whole point. It is in his nature to do things like this, to push the
limits. In homer, the characters generally do not change (with the exception
possibly of Telemachus, although this has been a matter of great debate);
character development was as alien to greek literature as the chorus is to
contemporary theatre. Odysseus' pride and daring do get into some scrapes
yes, but they also pull him out of some as well. In all cases though, he is
consistently Odysseus. Thus our own contemporary principles like "common
sense" dont' really apply; saying why didn't Odysseus show "common sense" is
like asking why Achilles didn't become a pacifist, or to use a larger
metaphor, why Aristotle did't build a microscope. In the words of Aristotle
himself: "Though the subject of the imitation [character]...be inconsistent,
still he must be consistently inconsistent." (Poetics, XV). It is
interesting that Aristotle points not to Odysseus' lack of "common sense" as
inconsistent, but rather his lamentations for Ithaca. Horace later codified
Homeric "consistency of character" in a most dogmatic fashion, using the
Iliad as an example (when in fact, as we are discussing, Homer is in fact
by times arguably inconsistent): "Either follow tradition or else make what
you invent be consistent. If, in writing, you wish to bring in the famous
Achilles, let him be resteless, irascible, unyielding and fierce. Let him
refuse to allow any laws to apply to himself; let him place his trust in his
sword" (Art of Poetry). In any case, there is certainly plenty of room for
interesting debate!
jules n. binoculas
challenge, but, if going into the cyclops' cave
and not wanting to leave until the giant returns
to eat his men whole "and dashed their heads on
the ground like little puppies" -- isn't the most
ridiculous thing odysseus does in the entire odyssey,
then please list his next worst mistakes, so i can
judge the inconsistency of his inconsistencies....
thank you!
Chris Camfield
Why does it have to make so much sense? The Odyssey is mainly folktale.
Just guessing here, but perhaps the Odyssey was sort of cobbled together.
The story is meant to be entertaining - someone came up with the idea
of the tale of Odysseus in the cave and it became part of the myth.
The ancient Greeks must have loved this episode, because it shows how
much better they were than primitive, stupid, barbarians (the Cyclops).
My prof in a Mythology class this term discussed the episode as an
example of the use of the structuralist approach to myth. There are
a lot of interesting dualisms - Greek vs non-Greek, knowing about
alcohol vs not knowing (a sign of sophistication and civilization,
if one did, that is), even primitivism vs tool use (the sharpened
stake). Granted, I'm not arguing this nearly as well as my prof did.
But, I don't think anyone would have worried too much about flimsy
excuses for including such a great episode in the story. (I mean,
mabe he was curious!) I mean, if we want to discuss stupid actions,
how smart was it for Odysseus and Diomedes to try and sneak into the
Trojan camp in the middle of the night (in the Iliad)? If the alarm had
been raised, they might have been quickly chopped into bits...
--
Chris Camfield (ccam...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)
"But just as black as white, Yeah and just as night is day
The light is gonna leave you, And you're gonna fade away"
(Hunters & Collectors, "Say Goodbye")
Kyle R. Krom
guests are normally made to feel welcome in these times. For example,
look at the treatment Telemachos gets everywhere he goes, even before
he identifies himself. Similarly, Odysseus gets at least three warm
welcomes from various natives (and that's just off the top of my head,
and doesn't even account for the possibility that there may have been
several "normal" landings not mentioned in Odysseus' account because he
didn't want to bore everyone). So, why should he be expecting to be
attacked everywhere he goes? This is probably a new concept to him.
It also seems that he learns from his early mistakes by being more cautious
with the ships in the future. He docks most of his fleet on a separate
island from the Cyclops; he anchors outside the harbor at Telopylos; he
sends only half his crew to investigate Aeaea. Okay, he lost a couple of
guys to the Cyclops; how many more were lost at Telopylos when Odysseus'
crew rushed ahead against his wishes? How many were lost when the crew
disobeyed his instructions and ate the cattle at Thrinacia? How many
never made it home because the crew opened the bag of winds? You think
THEY should be mad at HIM? Maybe it's the lotus talking.
jules n. binoculas
>FROM: Kyle R. Krom <KR...@psuvm.psu.edu>
>
>It also seems that he learns from his early mistakes by being more cautious
>with the ships in the future. He docks most of his fleet on a separate
>island from the Cyclops; he anchors outside the harbor at Telopylos; he
>sends only half his crew to investigate Aeaea. Okay, he lost a couple of
>guys to the Cyclops;
kyle:
on the one hand you say that odysseus learns from his mistakes
and parks the fleet on a separate island from the cyclops; on
the other hand you say that guests are normally made to feel
welcome --
i don't think odysseus thinks he's going to feel welcomed in the
giant cave of a giant he-man on a giant island with giant sheep
and giant hunks of cheese!
also, he takes his BEST men with him, thus isolating and
risking the lives of those who have the best chance of getting
him home -- but for what?
before we know the answer to that, he ignores their advice to
get the hell out of the cave before the cyclops comes home --
why was he messing around with their destinies so recklessly?
>I'm not sure what everybody's problem is here. It seems to me that
>guests are normally made to feel welcome in these times. For example,
>look at the treatment Telemachos gets everywhere he goes, even before
>he identifies himself. Similarly, Odysseus gets at least three warm
>welcomes from various natives
i don't fault you for this ambiguity, homer's work is full of
characters' half-justifiable motives and mistakes -- but neither do i buy
the other posts explaining odysseus' ridiculous trip to the cyclops'
cave as the result of 'corrupt oral texts' or 'homeric inconsistencies' --
if the text IS really a compendium of folktales, people along the line
have obviously taken great care to keep the principal characters
compassionate and resourceful, while victimizing them with just enough
ambiguity to maintain our pathos -- so, i don't buy the argument
that 'there's a bunch of stuff that's inconsisent or unexplained, and
the cyclops episode is one of them' --
since no pointed out any internal, textual foreshadowings to
odysseus' impetuous trip to the cyclops' cave, the next best argument
i can buy is that he just got overcome with a taste of giant-adventurousness
and he HAD to get into that giant's cave, and he HAD to wait to see
the giant....
why? i still don't know...
btw, can anyone find the parallels between the cyclops episode
and the film _2001: a space odyssey_ -- hint: compare the cylcops-wine
scene to the hal 9000's singing of _daisy_