Greek pronunciation based on Erasmus von Rotterdam
Reija T Tanninen
The people who are studing and researching ancient Greek seems to have
two different ways of thinking how the pronunciation should be.
It seems that most of European countries (maybe all) are following the
tradition which is based on Erasmus von Rotterdam and then the Greeks are
following pronunciation which is quite same as in Modern Greek. According
to my knowledge they are the only ones who are using this tradition in
Europe. I am not very well aware what happens now in the United States.
As I have heard from my professor there has been found some old papyrus
pieces where were quite clear explanation how the pronunciation should
be. Many people think and belive that it was not like that which is based
on Erasmus von Rotterdam and nor like the one Greeks are following.
The thing that makes me wonder is that every time I start to talk about
this thing with Greeks they get really angry or sad I might say, because
they strictly think that they are absolutely right. Even though I
haven't heard any good arguments from them. For example if you read the
Homeric epics with the Modern Greek pronunciation it doesn't fit to
right poetical metre.
I am also wondering why talking about this thing upsets them so much. It
might be related so strongly to their patriotic feelings. I'd like to
have your opinions about this. I would be also very grateful to have some
comments from Greeks too.
Reija Tanninen
Dawn C. Smith
are some clues through looking at Greek words transliterated into Latin,
and pronunciation started changing during the Hellenistic period. There
has been some research by a professor into the original pronunciation of
Homer (I can't remember the name, but look at the Center for Studies in
Oral Tradition at University of Missouri--Columbia, they should be able
to help). He has recorded his pronunciation of Homer onto tapes, and it
sounds slightly different than the Erasmian pronunciation usually
taught. He doesn't accent a certain syllable as we are accustomed, but
rather gives the vowels quantity as indication by circumflexes, etc.
When you listen to it, you are likely to laugh at first (it does sound
strange). Pronunciation of ancient Greek is thought to sound similar to
Chinese pronunciation, (not the words, etc.) but the tonal quality and
vowel quantity. I'm definitely not an expert in this, but the people at
the Center should be able to help you out.
Tasos Serghides
pronunciation but I can definetely say that there are differences between
ancient and modern Greek. In fact, even a cursory look at modern Greek
grammar makes this abanduntly clear. Just look at the letters "etta,"
"iota" and "upsilon" - all of these letters in modern Greek have the same
sound - "e" as in "he." In ancient Greek, these letters denoted a short
"e" versus a long "e" etc. Add to this the diphthongs "ei" and "oi" that
in modern Greek have the same identical pronunciation as the other "e"
sounds and it is clear that these modern Greek sounds have their origin
in ancient Greek but have lost their original utility. Clearly, modern
Greek evolved from ancient Greek and it will be naive to assume that such
evolution did not take place. Regarding those who as you say get upset
about these differences ask them this: If such an evolution did not occur,
where did modern Greek come from and why is it different from Homeric or
Classical or Bible Greek?
-=Tasos=-
Reija T Tanninen (rtan...@cc.Helsinki.FI) wrote:
: I am quite interested in the pronunciation of ancient Greek nowadays.
:
:
:
:
:
asek...@v9001.ntu.ac.sg
> I am quite interested in the pronunciation of ancient Greek nowadays.
> The people who are studing and researching ancient Greek seems to have
> two different ways of thinking how the pronunciation should be.
> It seems that most of European countries (maybe all) are following the
> tradition which is based on Erasmus von Rotterdam and then the Greeks are
> following pronunciation which is quite same as in Modern Greek.
this is not quite true. The low countries and England supposedly follow
Erasmus' pronounciation closely, while the Germans are somewhat closer to
the Byzantine (and hence modern Greek) accent. The French have their own way
of pronouncing ancient Greek which cannot reasonably be described as
anything but French. Even in England, the "Erasmian" pronounciation of
Greek has changed significantly over the last few centuries, following
the changes in the English language.
For instance, English people nowadays would pronounce the initial
diphthong of my name (Eu-thymios) not as a diphthong (e + ou) but as
a semivowel (as in the word "you"). As I understand, this was not the
case in English when Erasmus formulated his rules. The rules have
remained the same, but the accent of English has changed, hence the
Erasmian pronounciation no longer sounds as Erasmus intended.
Knowledge of Greek to Western Europe came via the Byzantines, who
taught it with the modern Greek accent.
Erasmus correctly pointed out that this could not have been the
true ancient accent, and proceeded to recover the ancient accent
by comparative methods and meter in poetry. Although he has subsequently
been corrected in some respects by modern scholarship, his basic
assertion is widely accepted as correct.
> According
> to my knowledge they are the only ones who are using this tradition in
> Europe. I am not very well aware what happens now in the United States.
> As I have heard from my professor there has been found some old papyrus
> pieces where were quite clear explanation how the pronunciation should
> be. Many people think and belive that it was not like that which is based
> on Erasmus von Rotterdam and nor like the one Greeks are following.
the fundamantal problem is that there cannot be a modern "correct"
pronounciation of ancient Greek. No Greek or Western European can
speak with ancient Greek accent. All these languages have long lost
their tonal accent characteristics (apart from that, in some important
aspects we don't really know what the ancient accent was like).
Too much Erasmian effort makes poetry sound ridiculous - full of
"chasmwdies" (I think the Latin word for it is "hiatus") and vowels.
Not poetic at all. Modern Greek also doesn't retain any sense of the
meter, so it isn't much better.
To my experience, it requires a highly trained voice (e.g. a professional
singer) to make ancient Greek poetry sound like true poetry, and even so
some gaps in our knowledge regarding ancient accent must be filled in
by ...poetic licence. It is a very difficult task indeed.
>
> The thing that makes me wonder is that every time I start to talk about
> this thing with Greeks they get really angry or sad I might say, because
> they strictly think that they are absolutely right. Even though I
> haven't heard any good arguments from them. For example if you read the
> Homeric epics with the Modern Greek pronunciation it doesn't fit to
> right poetical metre.
as I said, the Erasmian pronounciation isn't any better in practice.
Bear in mind that the Homeric epics contain a lot of linguistic elements
which even in the 4th century BC would be considered ...archaic.
In other words, don't assume that a 4th century Athenian would
pronounce them absolutely correctly (if that means anything).
Of course his pronounciation would certainly be expected to be better
than Erasmus or modern Greeks or Byzantines.
>
> I am also wondering why talking about this thing upsets them so much. It
> might be related so strongly to their patriotic feelings. I'd like to
> have your opinions about this. I would be also very grateful to have some
> comments from Greeks too.
I am a Greek who has learned grown up and educated in Greece,
and learned ancient Greek there. I like poetry a lot, and I can see that
ancient Greek poetry doesn't make any sense with modern Greek accent.
I also find that it doesn't make sense with the way people
practice the Erasmian accent.
I agree with you that some Greeks don't take kindly to discussions
regarding the ancient accent - but funnily enough the most prominent
modern scholar who asserts that Greek accent hasn't changed much
since the 4th century BC is a ...Swede and not a Greek -:).
I forget his name, but he is mentioned in Sydney Allen's "Vox Graeca"
(Cambridge Univ. Press).
I guess one reason for that may be that at school in Greece we aren't
taught the phonetics of ancient Greek. We are taught the
vowel quantities, accent signs and breathings for the meter, but
we pronounce them as in modern Greek (well, you can't expect much
poetic sensitivity at school anyway -:)) ). But strictly speaking, I
rememeber clearly that my Grammar Book mentioned the differences in
accent in the footnotes, so many pupils parhaps never read them -:).
I also suspect that another reason may be attributed somehow to religion.
I have noticed that it is invariably religious Greeks and the religious
establishment who resist most vigorously even the slightest traces of
the Erasmian pronounciation.
Being myself not particularly religious I frankly don't understand why
that should be so.
Perhaps it may have to do with the fact that by the time the christian
literature developed, Greek had already acquired its modern accent.
The poetics of church liturgy don't have any traces of tonal accents.
Perhaps they consider that any preoccupation with the ancient accent
is akin to a lapse into ...paganism -:))
>
>
> Reija Tanninen
>
Euthymios Kappos
asek...@v9001.ntu.ac.sg
[]
> strange). Pronunciation of ancient Greek is thought to sound similar to
> Chinese pronunciation, (not the words, etc.) but the tonal quality and
> vowel quantity. I'm definitely not an expert in this, but the people at
> the Center should be able to help you out.
Chinese is fully tonal. For every syllable the pitch is important.
When I heard northern Thai peasnat women talk, it seemed to me they
were singing ...opera -:)).
In Greek only the accent was tonal, and it is not quite clear
how strong that characteristic was. Each word has only one accented
syllable. In modern greek the pitch accent has been transformed to a
pure stress accent on the same syllable. Besides, in ancient Greek
vowels had quantities (long, short). In modern Greek all quantities
are basically the same. (ancient pitch accent may have contained
some stress elements as well, but our knowledge on this is incomplete -
this is still a debated topic I think).
Chinese vowels don't have quantities. In practice I think Chinese must
sound quite different than any Indo-european language ever sounded.
Some plosive consonants in ancient Greek (now transformed to
fricatives) may have sounded more like modern Indian
(Hindi) consonants, which are still plosive. Much unlike Chinese.
Euthymios Kappos
joh...@all-souls.ox.ac.uk
English "the" or like English "t" ? I know the French pronounce "Theos" "teos", with
a vague sort of aspirate on the t, whereas the English make it into a fullblown
"th", as in "that".
Of course, both pronunciations must have been current, t + aspirate, and "th" in
places like Sparta (parsenos, ne to sio for ne te thio, and also variants like
poieththai for poiesthai and Methanioi for Messanioi)
joh...@all-souls.ox.ac.uk
modern Greeks who were adamant that their pronunciation was the ancient one (i
choriyia for what I pronounced as "he choregia"), and the attitudes at stake were
partly about identity and "ownership" of the Classical past. Your very
intersting remarks are the first I have seen about the religious dimension of
pronunciation of the language.
robin...@delphi.com
<joh...@all-souls.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>What a very fine discussion of the issues and difficulties involved. I have met
this forum.