Why are Postdocs required?
SHOW...@ua1vm.ua.edu
I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
of teaching experience). He has applied to small colleges and universities
from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
he was one of 90 applicants. Where are all these people coming from. Has
Hillary really scared that many people out of pharmaceuticals?
We didn't expect he would be marketable to large departments at this stage,
however, we didn't believe he would have this much trouble finding a position
at a small, teaching oriented school. Two more years of living like students
doesn't appeal to us, but we are more disappointed that a PhD doesn't seem to
be worth what it used to be.Is our situation the trend or has the market
shifted in the last few years?
Sue Howell
eric remy
>
>
>
>I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
>He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
>the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
>of teaching experience). He has applied to small colleges and universities
>from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
>but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
>trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
>he was one of 90 applicants. Where are all these people coming from. Has
>Hillary really scared that many people out of pharmaceuticals?
No, just the job market is flooded with PhDs. We produce more than we
can employ in the sciences, and thus it's very hard to get a job
anywhere. Teaching positions are among the most desirable: one
tenure-track physics position at Amherst got something like 830
applicants.
>
>We didn't expect he would be marketable to large departments at this stage,
>however, we didn't believe he would have this much trouble finding a position
>at a small, teaching oriented school.
Pardon me, but this seems a highly naive assumption. Did your husband
look into this deeply? I'm in the exact same position (Fifth year
grad student, would like to teach at a small school.), and I gave up
the idea of finding something without a postdoc years ago. Many
magazines (CE&News, Physics Today.) have had articles on the
difficulty of finding jobs, especially academic ones.
Two more years of living like students
>doesn't appeal to us, but we are more disappointed that a PhD doesn't seem to
>be worth what it used to be.Is our situation the trend or has the market
>shifted in the last few years?
My best advice: look for a temporary teaching position (One or two
year.) These are available to people without the perfect resume, and
will help to get the experience that will help a great deal looking
later. Best of luck: it's a jungle out there.
>
>
>Sue Howell
--
Eric R. edr...@d31ha0.Stanford.EDU Department of Chemistry
"One can scarcely hope to vanquish an enemy in single combat by the
use of higher mathematics alone."- Drake Maijstral, _The Crown Jewels_
vanc...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
>
>
>
> I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
An myself.
> He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
> the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
> of teaching experience).
Well, postdocs are cheap labor at universities, and you are encouraged to
take as many as you can get!
> He has applied to small colleges and universities
> from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
> but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
> trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
> he was one of 90 applicants.
90? That's small. I sent out many resume only to get rejected to the
tune of 250+ applicants.
> Where are all these people coming from.
Universities who put research dollars over employment. Lets face it,
you get lots of productive research out of gophers who want to
take it in the *** over and over again. I know, I have been there.
> Has
> Hillary really scared that many people out of pharmaceuticals?
Not Hillary. I blame the NSF for lying to everyone 10 years ago about
the great opportuinities in science (which I myself took hook,
line, and sinker)
>
> We didn't expect he would be marketable to large departments at this stage,
> however, we didn't believe he would have this much trouble finding a position
> at a small, teaching oriented school. Two more years of living like students
> doesn't appeal to us, but we are more disappointed that a PhD doesn't seem to
> be worth what it used to be.Is our situation the trend or has the market
> shifted in the last few years?
>
Forget academic jobs. Unless your husband is some sort of prima-dona
you can forget it. Perhaps he has other talents to cultivate?
I myself have a PhD in physics (worthless theses days), but I am
working in industry these days and I find that I get alot more respect
and financial compensation than any of the acadamic snots have to offer.
It's nice having something than being a friggin peon for the rest of your
life IF your 'lucky enough' to get one of those positions. From my
(limited) experience the grass IS greener on the other side.
BTW, I don't do physics any more, but am working in control systems
and am getting loads of job offers now, one which I am going to
take
in *GASP* entertainment on computers (the price tag for this
is significantly better than a tenured professor :)
Post-docs are slaves. Post-doc gets you nowwhere except in
debt (unless you are in the top 0.1% - yeah right :)
-Garrett
Good luck.
>
> Sue Howell
murphy kenneth p
While there may be some validity to Garrett's comments, his obvious bitterness
certainly makes his objectivity questionable. I think it's important to realize
that the completion of a post-doc has been expected in some fields long before
the current glut of PhD's. Having recently completed a three year post-doc, I
think it was extremely important to my training. Granted, I was fortunate
enough to obtain a good position, so my lack of bitterness may cloud my judge-
ment, but I don't think that someone without post-doc training is likely to have
the breadth and depth of knowledge in a field to be a successful researcher and
teacher.
That said, it isn't clear to me why a professor in a teaching position (i.e. who
isn't expected to supplement their salary with grant monies) should need post-
doc experience. It's probably as much a matter of inflation as anything. There
are alot of people with college degrees doing things that someone with a high
school education could easily master.
Kip
--
Dr. Kenneth P. Murphy e-mail: k-mu...@uiowa.edu
Department of Biochemistry office: (319)335-8910
Univeristy of Iowa lab: (319)335-7936
Iowa City, IA 52242 FAX: (319)335-9570
Allan Adler
You are witnessing the critical behavior of a pyramid swindle.
One gets paid in some places to produce PhD's, who then try to get into
the business of producing more PhD...
An individual looking for a job and persuaded that there is a crunch
will apply to lots of places, no matter how unsuitable. The whole
glut of PhD's looking for jobs does that all at the same time and
that makes it look like they are all showing up at the door of any particular
place. The naive tendency is to multiply that multitude by the
number of places and see an even larger throng, but that is incorrect:
there is a lot of duplication.
Meanwhile, each place sees the throng and digs in, raising arbitrary
barriers in the hope that the stack of remaining applicants will fall
to levels that will enable the department to really look the candidates
over. Many of these are stupid, like transcripts, nominal research specialty
and whether one has a postdoc or not. It doesn't matter what the barrier is,
as long as it is legal, can be articulated and stems the rising tide
of applicants at the door.
If they hire you, they will expect you to do this to the others.
One respondent to this posting praised the greener grass in the
so-called real world. I will agree with practically anything
nasty that anyone has to say about working conditions in academia,
so I have no quarrel with that. But fropm my point of view, the
business world is so fallen from the standpoint of the spirit of
scholarship, and often working conditions as well, as not to be worth
mentioning.
It is also not the case that one can just snap one's fingers and work
in industry. People who assume otherwise are in for a big surprise.
Allan Adler
a...@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
Walter Maya
small University opens up. Here in California we need a lot more chemistry
teachers in the California State University System, but we do not have the
money to hire them. This occurs in other States as well. Here in California,
the people have decided to invest in prisons rather than colleges! From 1970
to 1990 the State of California has built 20 prisons and only one University.
If they pass the "three strikes and you are in for life", as seems sure, then
the situation will only get worse. I am close to retirement, and I have
enjoyed teaching a lot. I worked for 12 years in industry and I vastly
prefer teaching. Of course, this is an individual decision. But if your
husband is happy, you are more likely to be happy too. Of course, the reverse
is also true. Best luck, Walter.
Prof. Jack Miller
>
>
>
> I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
> He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
> the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
> of teaching experience). He has applied to small colleges and universities
> from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
> but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
> trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
> he was one of 90 applicants.
That is interesting --- we do require PDF experience, but when we
advertised for an organic position two years ago we were astonished by how
few qualified people there were out there. Organic is the area of chemistry
in which there is normally a glut. If your husband were an Analytical
Chemist things weould be different --- the last time I was involved in
hiring an analytical chemist (at another university where I am an adjunct
professor) it took a couple of years to find someone to fill the vacancy.
Where are all these people coming from. Has
> Hillary really scared that many people out of pharmaceuticals?
>
> We didn't expect he would be marketable to large departments at this stage,
> however, we didn't believe he would have this much trouble finding a position
> at a small, teaching oriented school.
A good small school is going to find PDF experience even more important
since whoever is hired is either the only person of one of perhaps two in
the particular sub-discipline of chemistry. Over a 30+ year career the
incumbant in the position filled will have to train themselves several
times over. That is hopefully what the PDF demonstrates --- an organic PDF
willhelp your husband, a PDF in the same narrow area as his PhD thesis is
just as likely to be a hindrance. With a PhD and a PDF the prospective
employer is more likely to find out if one can commit words to paper. Even
if small teaching colleges don't expect their faculty to have large
research grants and direct PhD students, the good ones do expect them to do
some research --- it is part of the training of a chemistry student and
without some grant money to help buy equipment for the department, the BS
graduates of the small school may not find ready employment, so in some
sense outside funding is even more important in the small school. When I
joined Brock 27 years ago we were a small school without a graduate program
(400 students in the University and only a few chemists). Today Brock has
11,000 students and the Chemistry department 10 faculty, we have a MSc.
program and I have been able to attract grants large enough to buy high
resolution NMRs, mass spectrometers etc. If I'd been hired with the notion
that I never had to do anything new again and had my colleagues been hired
with that attitude, we would not now be a middle sized institution, at
least by Canadian standards.
Virtually nothing that I am teaching this year was taught to me in any
courses I took as an undergrad or graduate student (PhD plus PDF which gave
me a second PhD), but most of what I am teaching is relevant to my
research.
That is why we have PDF requirements --- not as slave labour, not for one
to get even more specialized, but rather for one to demonstrate some
breadth and intlectual independence. Job candidates who pass themselves off
as clones of their supervisors virtually never make the short lists. People
well versed in hiring mechanics look for breadth.
Two more years of living like students
> doesn't appeal to us, but we are more disappointed that a PhD doesn't seem to
> be worth what it used to be.Is our situation the trend or has the market
> shifted in the last few years?
>
>
> Sue Howell
--
PROF. JACK M. MILLER
DEPTS. OF CHEMISTRY AND COMPUTER SCIENCE
BROCK UNIVERSITY
ST. CATHARINES, ONTARIO, CANADA
L2S 3A1
Earl L. SMITH
>From: jmi...@spartan.ac.brocku.ca (Prof. Jack Miller)
>Subject: Re: Why are Postdocs required?
>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:06:25 GMT
>In article <16F6CE388...@ua1vm.ua.edu>, SHOW...@ua1vm.ua.edu wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
>> He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
>> the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
>> of teaching experience). He has applied to small colleges and universities
>> from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
>> but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
>> trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
>> he was one of 90 applicants.
>
>That is interesting --- we do require PDF experience, but when we
>advertised for an organic position two years ago we were astonished by how
>few qualified people there were out there. Organic is the area of chemistry
>in which there is normally a glut. If your husband were an Analytical
>Chemist things weould be different --- the last time I was involved in
>hiring an analytical chemist (at another university where I am an adjunct
>professor) it took a couple of years to find someone to fill the vacancy.
>A good small school is going to find PDF experience even more important
>since whoever is hired is either the only person of one of perhaps two in
>the particular sub-discipline of chemistry. Over a 30+ year career the
>incumbant in the position filled will have to train themselves several
>times over. That is hopefully what the PDF demonstrates --- an organic PDF
>willhelp your husband, a PDF in the same narrow area as his PhD thesis is
>just as likely to be a hindrance. With a PhD and a PDF the prospective
>employer is more likely to find out if one can commit words to paper. Even
>if small teaching colleges don't expect their faculty to have large
>research grants and direct PhD students, the good ones do expect them to do
>some research --- it is part of the training of a chemistry student and
>without some grant money to help buy equipment for the department, the BS
>graduates of the small school may not find ready employment, so in some
>sense outside funding is even more important in the small school. When I
>joined Brock 27 years ago we were a small school without a graduate program
>(400 students in the University and only a few chemists). Today Brock has
>11,000 students and the Chemistry department 10 faculty, we have a MSc.
>program and I have been able to attract grants large enough to buy high
>resolution NMRs, mass spectrometers etc.
>Virtually nothing that I am teaching this year was taught to me in any
>courses I took as an undergrad or graduate student (PhD plus PDF which gave
>me a second PhD), but most of what I am teaching is relevant to my
>research.
>
>That is why we have PDF requirements --- not as slave labour, not for one
>to get even more specialized, but rather for one to demonstrate some
>breadth and intlectual independence.
Hmmmm. I thought this was why I did a Ph.D.
I think that you have defined above why you don't understand the
angst of people looking in today's market. You started 27 years
ago when there was a shortage of Ph.Ds. There was a shortage then.
There is a glut now. It's obvious you didn't have to work as hard
at your job search then as current candidates do.
The other point you raise is that you expect that PhDs should
not be clones of their major professors, should be imaginative,etc.
I have heard this before and read it in CNE news as well.
Who said we wanted to be clones of our former supervisors?
We just want to see the shortage of PhDs promised to us
7 years ago when we considering graduate school!
How many letters and research proposals did you send out?
How many of the positions you applied to required not one but
TWO research proposals?
How many of those letters received not even a flush letter in
response?
Professors who have been working 15 years or more must
admit there is a problem in today's market, and realise that
younger scientists _are_ looking in all fields they can imagine.
Anything else is intellectually dishonest.
I am GLAD I've done a post-doc. I HAVE changed fields. I've been
mobile. I am economically worse off than my siblings who didn't
go to university--that's life, I made my choice.
I just would like my older colleagues to stop claiming that I'm not
flexible, smart, imaginative, etc etc in my job search!!!
Earl L. Smith _^_
Laboratoire de Chimie Organome'tallique de Surface _|\| |/|_
69626 Villeurbanne, France \ V V /
Tel (33) 72 44 53 19 >_______<
Fax (33) 72 44 28 52 !
Robert Crutchley
and this won't change until the economy improves. As a professor
writing recommendations for former PhD students, I know its difficult
to get a good job and scary when a highly qualified person cannot
get job interview let alone a position. The people who hire can be
selective and get the very best candidate. One of the criteria they
will use is postdoctoral experience for the reasons already put
forward by Jack Miller. These reasons are valid and getting rid of
the postdoctoral experience won't increase the number of jobs available.
Walter Maya
Hmmmm... Let's see. I got my Ph. D. in 1958 in Organic Chemistry and went
for a Post Doc at the University of Illinois. Why? You guessed it, there
was a shortage alright, but of jobs! not Ph. D.'s. I never became rich, and
of course I'm facing retirement now. I am still glad that I chose the career
that I did, although at times I thought of giving it up. We do not go into
chemistry to make big bucks, but in search of a way to make a living that is
interesting to us. I still find chemistry interesting, as Priestley said
(a classmate of mine ;-)):" ...and no pursuit can have a juster claim to the
leisure hours of men of rank and fortune than that of natural science; since,
independently of any views of utility, none can furnish more rational
amusement."
I also remember overhearing an interview with Roger Adams at UI, where the
C&EN reporter wanted him to say that there was a shortage of chemistry
professors and I heard him bark out: "There has never been a shortage of
chemistry professors in my life [this means back to at least 1900!], if you
want I will talk about the rewards, but not of shortages." If you have
patience and persistence, though, you will find a job in which you will be
happy. Outside of science, I am not sure that I would have found that job.
Best of luck, Walter.
Peter Wayner
>In article <jmiller-07...@applepie.chem.brocku.ca> jmi...@spartan.ac.brocku.ca (Prof. Jack Miller) writes:
>>From: jmi...@spartan.ac.brocku.ca (Prof. Jack Miller)
>>Subject: Re: Why are Postdocs required?
>>Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:06:25 GMT
>>In article <16F6CE388...@ua1vm.ua.edu>, SHOW...@ua1vm.ua.edu wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am a little curious and perplexed by my husband's unprofitable job hunt.
>>> He will be completing his PhD in organic this August and it seems that
>>> the job market is closed to anyone with out a postdoc (or years and years
>>> of teaching experience). He has applied to small colleges and universities
>>> from Arizona to Georgia. These positions are not requiring postdoc experience,
>>> but that seems to be who he is being passed over by (not to mention people
>>> trying to get out high pressure research universities). At one small college,
>>> he was one of 90 applicants.
There is one very important reason why universities require post docs
of their new professorial hires:
1) They make money off of post docs and if they didn't require post doc
training then no one would bother doing one. There has to be some light,
however dim, at the end of the tunnel.
Post Docs are also more mature and more prepared and more connected so
they are, in general, a better bet.
It is the same reason why they require PhDs. No one else requires the
degree for anything so if they didn't require it, then no one would
bother doing one. And they make money off of graduate students.
-Peter