Converting CO2 and H2O to Methane
pix...@googlemail.com
when combining a few atoms of hydrogen and carbon to form methane,
release energy, in the same way that hydrogen and oxygen does when
they combine to form H2O? Because, if you used that same energy to
split the H2O, to gain more hydrogen, to form more methane then you
could get the process to power it’s self, converting water to methane
that is if the electrolysis was 100% efficient! Though I’m assuming it
isn’t, so maybe it’s also possible to use the oxygen atoms from
splitting the H2O, to oxidize the methane to methanol; to generate
more energy... Are there other reactions, on the pathway to forming
ethanol from methane, which would generate the energy needed for the
original electrolysis of water? I would be very surprised if this was
possible, I think one of the problems would be where you obtain the
carbon atoms to form the methane in the first place, can you
electrolyze carbon dioxide?
Ron Jones
In a word - NO.
Look at Enthalpy of Formation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_enthalpy_change_of_formation,
especially look at Hess's Law - doesn't matter on what route you choose -
the overall enegy is the same.
The process you describe is *not* unknown, it called "water gas" - reacting
red hot coal with steam to give a mixture of useful flammable gasses (H2 and
CO)- *but* it's an endothermic process, it absorbs heat to do the reaction,
and the reaction will stop as the coal cools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas
Sadly, you cannot get something for nothing....
--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don't repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein
dlzc
On Jun 30, 1:42 pm, pix...@googlemail.com wrote:
> I’m not a chemist, but just had this idea, does the
> reaction created, when combining a few atoms of
> hydrogen and carbon to form methane, release
> energy, in the same way that hydrogen and oxygen
> does when they combine to form H2O?
The problem is that less energy is released to form methane, than to
produce its products of oxidation. Additionally, the second law of
thermodynamics requires that the process take even more energy that
"ideal", and that goes away as waste heat.
Search on the enthalpy of oxygen, methane, water and CO2.
David A. Smith
pix...@googlemail.com
Thanks, for your answer, so entropy always wins in the end.. I guess,
if it had been possible then nature would have got there first.
dlzc
On Jun 30, 3:25 pm, pix...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 30 Jun, 22:25, dlzc <dl...@cox.net> wrote:
...
> Thanks, for your answer, so entropy always
> wins in the end.. I guess,
Doesn't mean we have to like it, just respect it.
> if it had been possible then nature would
> have got there first.
She did: photosynthesis. Only She makes more complex hydrocarbons
(usually) than methane.
David A. Smith
pix...@googlemail.com
> The process you describe is *not* unknown, it called "water gas" - reacting
> red hot coal with steam to give a mixture of useful flammable gasses (H2 and
> CO)- *but* it's an endothermic process, it absorbs heat to do the reaction,
Is this endothermic process the same reason that hydrogen fuel cells
are so inefficient? It seems a shame you can’t just separate out the
individual atoms, to stop the heat transfer, like creating thin
tubular membranes, or shuttling the hydrogen through Nantubes. I read
some where that Nantubes had been used like cathode ray tubes, for
transfering the electrons.. Seems like you would have to create
something really hi-tech before you get rid of the endothermic process
that’s if it's possible...
hanson
if it would not have been for the miserable Green Shits,
those mother fucking enviros, who obstructed the
development of nuclear power for the last 40 years
and precipitated the current oil crisis AND caused the
Global Warming, which these enviro turds whine about,
then your hope for "Converting CO2 and H2O to Methane"
would be a possible industrial endeavor by now.
>
In the late 60's, the Sci. Mags and the Patent Office had
plenty of proposals to do that. Your Scheme was/is simple:
Split CO2 thermally into CO + 1/2 O2 and the H2O into
H2 + 1/2 O2 via electrolysis, both powered by energy from
the nuke plants. The CO & O2 was purported to be separated
by mass spectrographic means, or selectively absorbed to
avoid recombination.
The resulting gas mix, CO + H2, is known as Synthesis Gas,
from which via the Fischer Tropsch reaction, CH4 and all
other Hydrocarbons, from Methane to Alcohols to Diesel
can and have been synthesized on a industrial scale.
>
Enjoy and do chemistry & technology!... but Fuck enviros!
hanson
>
<pix...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:3b0418b3-a98e-4190...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
V for Vendicar
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote
> Yo, Pixor,
> if it would not have been for the miserable Green Shits,
> those mother fucking enviros, who obstructed the
> development of nuclear power for the last 40 years
> and precipitated the current oil crisis AND caused the
> Global Warming, which these enviro turds whine about,
> then your hope for "Converting CO2 and H2O to Methane"
> would be a possible industrial endeavor by now.
Poor Hanson. The Future just isn't turning out the way his KKKonservative
Ideology held that it must.
He was warned. Now he will suffer.
hanson
mind any and all engineers in the field of energy production
must be KKKonservatives... AHAHAHAHA...& then there is
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/msg/fe3ae9ddbfab0dfb?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/msg/6aba4ec0b34ceb25?hl=en
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/msg/d032a3e6a8a8cd09?hl=en
the Gauche & loud communist, US-expatriate & pauper Scott Nudds
aka "VD-for-Vendicar" <Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com>
aka VD-Scotty, the GLOBAL COOLING DENIALIST, with his red
pants frozen in snow and ice...ahaha... who had bragged that he
**never** drove & much less ever owned an automobile, Scuttled
his Nutts, and said: ....Meanwhile back here in his Reality Based
Community aka RBC, the ReBorn Communists... he wrote:
>
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote
There's big money in scaring wusses.
>
VD Scotty wrote:
Absolutely, just ask Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Pearle, and Haliburton.
>
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
Absolutely, if you just had completed your list better, instead
of only posting your pinko nit picking... All use the same MO;
the Environmentalists, the Jewish Neocons, the Evangelicals,
the Politicos like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Arafat, Ehud Olmert,
Hamas-Hassan, Hitler, the Saudi King... They all do it!... The
list is endless...
** Governing, by definition, is done by scaring the wusses **...
and the Greenies learned that trick from the ones who came
before them... and the rest of the connivers who came after
the Enviros learned it from their Green Bible (see below)...
>
But it was Nazi Reichsmarshall and Luftwaffe-Chief Hermann
Goering who condensed this human tragedy into the fewest
words when he stated during his interrogation after WWII:
>
"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Hermann Goering
shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his
life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back
to his farm in one piece?" -- "Voice or no voice, the people can
always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy.
All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."
>
These tactics of selling doom & fears teaches & instills all
kinds mental aberrations & continues unabashed, like seen
here:
< http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f >
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM>
>
Well, see there VD Scotty... like I said, that and what was
discussed above are eventrs that were born out of the legacy
of the Greenies' Bible that says:
Green Genesis:
1 "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
= believe is true. -- Paul Watson, Sea Shepard/ex-Greenpeace, &...
2 "A lot of environmental [sci/soc/pol] messages are simply not
= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
3 "If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it
= up on the spot... for the mass-media today... the truth is irrelevant."
= -- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy.
Revelations:
4 "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
5 "to attract great funding you have to scare the public by making
= things bigger and more dangerous than they really are."
= --Petr Chylek, Prof. Atmospheric Sci., Dalhousie Uni, Halifax
6 "Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the
= right thing" -- Sen.Tim Wirth, Admin of Ted Turner's $1Billion UN-gift.
7 "No matter if the science is all phony, Climate change [provides]
= equality in the world." -- Christine Stewart, Can. Enviro Minister
8 "It is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presen-
= tations" -- Al Gore, Chairman, Gen. Investment Management Bank
>
Modern, attributal definitions of enviro classifications:
========= enviro Class (1) --- the Green shit(s):
...are the ones who advocate, promote, support, legalize,
institute and extort the permit charges, the user fees, the
enviro surtaxes and the CO2/Carbon tax, all reflected in
HIGHER PRICES of goods and services!, ...and being
responsible for much of the OUT-SOURCING!
========= enviro Class (2) -- the Green turd(s):
... are the ones who are recipients and beneficiaries from
the lootings of (1), directly or indirectly.
========= enviro Class (3) -- the Little green idiot(s):
.. are the unpaid, well-meaning ones, in "environmental
groups" who think they do something for the "environment",
when in fact they are only the enablers and facilitators for
(2) who are harvesting the green $$$ that (1) has extorted.
>
The most intriguing fact though is that during the past 40 years
**EVERYBODY** has adopted the Green Bible & learned,
by now how to uses these machination principles for their
own agenda by now.... ahahaha....ALL of'em use and do it...
from the far Left to the far Right, from Lenders to Creditors,
from Union bosses to Wallstreet CEO, from Jews to Muslims,
from secular Heads of State to the Pope, & most ominously
of all ... from Elementary School pupils to their Teachers...
WORLDWIDE!...
Strange enough though, the original hard core class 3 enviros
the first tier disciples of environmentalism are in full denial on this,
just like you are, VD Scotty.
<
ahahahaha... ahahanson
Salmon Egg
<3b0418b3-a98e-4190...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
pix...@googlemail.com wrote:
> Iąm not a chemist <snip>
That is obvious.
Bill