Where did the British get limes?
Archimedes Plutonium
long during winter when often I do not want to go store shopping in bad
weather. There were my limes in my fruit bowl. Whereas the oranges
quickly rotted if not eaten hurriedly and same for the lemons although
they lasted longer than oranges. But it is the lime of citric acid that
seems to last the longest and their coats become hard like a rock but
still fresh and edible fruit inside.
I take it that England is not native to limes. So I wonder where the
British got all of their lime fruits to keep their navies for all those
centuries that England was the superpowerdom
1300-1900. Was it from Spain? And I would bet that the lime supply of
England was more than a mere "petty diplomacy". One could say that the
discovery of the Americas by Columbus was a quest for "spices".
Likewise, how much of a role did the "lime fruit" cause in the history
of England? My guess, after visiting Europe in 1999 was that England got
its limes from Spain.
Can someone briefly tell us the history of England concerning limes?
Schlau
Limes originated in Indonesia and from there were brought to the
Mediterranean area by the Muslims. So yes limes were growing in
Spain (and Greece and Southern Italy).
The British Royal Navy however didn't have an offical policy of having
limes or other citrus fruits abroad ship to prevent scurvy until
1794, by which time limes and lemons were growing throughout the
British West Indies.
--Oscar Schlaf--
http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/schlaf/
Geodog
vegetables and fruit whenever they could, which wasn't often. I can't tell
whether he was conducting a scientific experiment or making an educated
guess. Apparently he didn't lose a single crew member to scurvy and the
admirals were moved to adopt the practice throughout the navy. Anyway, my
point is that the practice of using lime juice must post-date Cook.
geodog
Cereoid*
Archie-poo?
You take it that England is not native to limes? Limes (the fruit) are not
native to England either. They originally come from China.
Where does Archie get a clue? You could even find the answers if you
actually did a search on the Internet but is that too much effort for a
genius like you, Archibald? You are a very unprincipled Archimedes. You
should try laying off those "spices".
"Archimedes Plutonium" <plut...@willinet.net> wrote in message
news:3AD74BB1...@willinet.net...
Owen
18th century
John Owen
Victoria BC
Roger Whitehead
> In 1769 - 70 Cook used sauerkraut as a source of vit C, and he bought
> vegetables and fruit whenever they could, which wasn't often
Much more widely used as an anti-scorbutic were the various species of
Cochlearia, hence the common name of scurvygrass. They have been used
since Roman times and are full of Vitamin C. Since scurvygrass tastes
very sour, its use fell off as soon as limes became commonly available.
Regards,
Roger
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Roger Whitehead,
Oxted, Surrey, England
Neville Lindsay
"Roger Whitehead" <r...@office-futures.com> wrote in message
news:VA.00001f0...@office-futures.com...
> In article <MuVB6.2734$482....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Geodog wrote:
> > In 1769 - 70 Cook used sauerkraut as a source of vit C, and he bought
> > vegetables and fruit whenever they could, which wasn't often
>
> Much more widely used as an anti-scorbutic were the various species of
> Cochlearia, hence the common name of scurvygrass. They have been used
> since Roman times and are full of Vitamin C. Since scurvygrass tastes
> very sour, its use fell off as soon as limes became commonly available.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roger
Is that why the Poms are called Limeys by the Yanks (I know it's not, just
want to give someone a chance to round off the discussion on a high note).
On a serious note, can you please give me a serious reference for the
scurvygrass in Roman sources.
NL
Roger Whitehead
> Is that why the Poms are called Limeys by the Yanks
Exactly so. 8-)
> On a serious note, can you please give me a serious reference for the
> scurvygrass in Roman sources.
Pliny's /Natural History/ tells that the legionaries of Germanicus
Caesar were taught its use by the Frisians. (Immediate source: /An
Englishman's Flora/, Geoffrey Grigson).
Regards,
Roger
Chris Street
<nev...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>"Roger Whitehead" <r...@office-futures.com> wrote in message
>news:VA.00001f0...@office-futures.com...
>> In article <MuVB6.2734$482....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Geodog wrote:
>> > In 1769 - 70 Cook used sauerkraut as a source of vit C, and he bought
>> > vegetables and fruit whenever they could, which wasn't often
>>
>> Much more widely used as an anti-scorbutic were the various species of
>> Cochlearia, hence the common name of scurvygrass. They have been used
>> since Roman times and are full of Vitamin C. Since scurvygrass tastes
>> very sour, its use fell off as soon as limes became commonly available.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Roger
>
>Is that why the Poms are called Limeys by the Yanks (I know it's not, just
>want to give someone a chance to round off the discussion on a high note).
>
It is in fact the correct reason.
Cook was the first British explorer who advocated the use of "citrus"
for prevention of scurvy. Although there was no hard evidence,
empirical studies seemd to indicate that citrus juice had a beneficial
effect in improving recovery from scurvy. (sailors recovered MUCH
faster in Indonesia etc than in England) Accordingly the Admiralty
suggested three spoons of juice per day.
However, they chose limes, which keep well, and have as i recall only
a third as much Vit C as oranges. Not enough to keep scurvy at bay!
Fortunatly this was when the Navy was stocking potatoes to eat, and
these wonderous tubers (thank you America!) are stuffed full of Vit C.
Between them and the limes scurvy was eventually banished
>On a serious note, can you please give me a serious reference for the
>scurvygrass in Roman sources.
>
>NL
>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>
>> Roger Whitehead,
>> Oxted, Surrey, England
>>
>
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
The other 42% are made up later on.
In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.
Roger Whitehead
> Cook was the first British explorer who advocated the use of "citrus"
> for prevention of scurvy.
The Admiralty gave Cook mainly sauerkraut ("Sour Krout"), malt (40 bushels of
it) and "portable" (i.e. ready-made) soup to try. This was based on the
recommendation of David MacBride, author of "An Historical Account of a New
Method of Treating the Scurvy at Sea, containing ten cases which show that
this destructive disease may be easily and effectually cured without the aid
of fresh vegetable diet" (1764).
They also gave him a few bottles of "rob" of lemons, which was lemon juice
boiled down to a tenth of its volume. This reduced its Vitamin C content by
at least half, with further losses arising from the necessarily prolonged
storage.
Although his men -- being true Britons -- disliked having their diet
interfered with by such novelties, he was able to keep scurvy at bay. Quite
reasonably, Cook attributed this to the sauerkraut, malt and soup, not the
citrus juice. In fact, there is evidence that Cook's reports in favour of the
other stuffs served to impede the introduction of citrus juice.
> Although there was no hard evidence
Yes there was. James Lind had carried out a famous controlled clinical trial
in 1747, 21 years before Cook's first voyage. He tested twelve sailors with
scurvy, in pairs, with a variety of substances - cider, dilute sulphuric
acid, vinegar, sea water and various drugs or two oranges and a lemon a day.
Those receiving the oranges and lemons improved after six days. Those
receiving the cider were the next best at the end of two weeks.
> However, they chose limes, which... have as i recall only
> a third as much Vit C as oranges
Not according to the World Health Organization. They say that a fresh lime
contains 27 mg of Vitamin C per 100 g, whereas an orange or a lemon each
contains 50 mg. Ripe mango appears to be the best fruit in that regard,
having a remarkable 4875 mg/100g.
Scurvy grass registers 200 mg/100g. Even a potato baked in its jacket
provides about 24 mg/100g, more than double the minimum amount needed daily
to prevent scurvy.
Regards,
Roger
Archimedes Plutonium
Roger Whitehead wrote:
> Not according to the World Health Organization. They say that a fresh lime
> contains 27 mg of Vitamin C per 100 g, whereas an orange or a lemon each
> contains 50 mg. Ripe mango appears to be the best fruit in that regard,
> having a remarkable 4875 mg/100g.
>
> Scurvy grass registers 200 mg/100g. Even a potato baked in its jacket
> provides about 24 mg/100g, more than double the minimum amount needed daily
> to prevent scurvy.
No wonder I have craving for mangoes in the winter. Someone told me that their
skins were poisonous, or was that the leaves of mango trees?
Is it the potato skins that contains most of the vitamin C?
Beverly Erlebacher
Roger Whitehead <r...@office-futures.com> wrote:
>In article <MuVB6.2734$482....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Geodog wrote:
>> In 1769 - 70 Cook used sauerkraut as a source of vit C, and he bought
>> vegetables and fruit whenever they could, which wasn't often
>
>Much more widely used as an anti-scorbutic were the various species of
>Cochlearia, hence the common name of scurvygrass. They have been used
>since Roman times and are full of Vitamin C. Since scurvygrass tastes
>very sour, its use fell off as soon as limes became commonly available.
The needles on the tips of spruce boughs were boiled into a tea to cure
scurvy by Canadian native peoples. They taught Jacques Cartier to do
this.
Roger Whitehead
> The needles on the tips of spruce boughs were boiled into a tea to cure
> scurvy by Canadian native peoples. They taught Jacques Cartier to do
> this.
Indeed. Here's the WHO again:
"Another drink prized by sailors since the 16th century was 'spruce-beer'
made from the green leaf buds of fir trees. Extracts made from leaves of
the American spruce, the tree thought to have been used by the Canadian
Indians who shared their remedy with Jacques Cartier on his voyage to
Newfoundland in the 16th century, yielded 200 mg of vitamin C per 100 g
of leaves.... Although infusions of fresh spruce leaves contained 14
mg/100 ml, after fermentation the vitamin content virtually
disappeared...."
See www.who.int/nut/documents/scurvy_in_emergencies_eng.pdf.
There seems some dispute over the species. Another account says that it
was Thuja occidentalis, known to the Indians as "anneda" (and misnamed
"white cedar"). Cartier apparently took a specimen back to France with
him and it became known as "arborvitae", the tree of life.
Archimedes Plutonium
Roger Whitehead wrote:
> In article <2001Apr19....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>, Beverly
> Erlebacher wrote:
> > The needles on the tips of spruce boughs were boiled into a tea to cure
> > scurvy by Canadian native peoples. They taught Jacques Cartier to do
> > this.
>
> Indeed. Here's the WHO again:
> "Another drink prized by sailors since the 16th century was 'spruce-beer'
> made from the green leaf buds of fir trees. Extracts made from leaves of
> the American spruce, the tree thought to have been used by the Canadian
> Indians who shared their remedy with Jacques Cartier on his voyage to
> Newfoundland in the 16th century, yielded 200 mg of vitamin C per 100 g
> of leaves.... Although infusions of fresh spruce leaves contained 14
> mg/100 ml, after fermentation the vitamin content virtually
> disappeared...."
>
Roger, I am curious as to the Vitamin C content of watermelon is. Do you
have the data on watermelon. I hope it has at least a respectable content of
Vitamin C.