is it chlorine gas?
kxrexso
ammonium ferrous sulphate for galv-etching the steel (
http://perso.club-internet.fr/gravert/galvetch/notacid.htm ) , i have
found that etching is much faster when using the hydrochloric
acid, 9% solution. after use, HCl solution gets greenish. is it because
of chlorine dissolved in the solution? (some of chlorine gets in the air
i assume?) should i use sulphuric acid?
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
No.
It's iron salts most probably.
Does it smell of chlorine?
--
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millenium
http://www.theconsensus.org
hanson
news:c5jl5n$2c3pi$1...@ID-120108.news.uni-berlin.de...
> kxrexso wrote:
> > after some time spending experimenting with ferrous sulphate and
> > ammonium ferrous sulphate for galv-etching the steel (
> > http://perso.club-internet.fr/gravert/galvetch/notacid.htm ) , i have
> > found that etching is much faster when using the hydrochloric
> > acid, 9% solution. after use, HCl solution gets greenish. is it because
> > of chlorine dissolved in the solution? (some of chlorine gets in the air
> > i assume?) should i use sulphuric acid?
>
> No.
> It's iron salts most probably.
> Does it smell of chlorine?
>
Right, almost all Fe(II) salts are green and Fe(III)Cl3 is yellow.
You can use all kind of acids for etching steel.
The etching speed of the acid onto steel same conc & at RT is ~
HNO3 > HCl > H2SO4 > H3PO4 > H2N-SO3H > Citric acid.
HNO3 gives nasty NOx fumes and the others may give a fizz.
You can increase the etch rate dramatically if you heat the solutions
of H2SO4, H3PO4, H2N-SO3H or Citric acid. You'll get to a point
where they easily surpass the action rates of HNO3 or HCl at RT.
Don't heat HNO3 or HCl ---> very nasty fumes.
Commercial operations use preferably either hot H2SO4 (cost)
or H3PO4 because this produces a phosphate coat onto the steel
that prevents rusting of the treated parts. See Phosphatising.
If you didn't use any current there will not be any Cl2 evolution.
BTW, the link above is quite fascinating..... chem arts of yore.
Enjoy chemistry ......but fuck enviros......by all means!
ahahahaha.....ahahahanson
kxrexso
hm... i didn't mention that i was using current. so i am using
current... are bubbles that rise from the anode chlorine? it has some
kind of sour odour so i keep window opened just for sure. i remember
that my professor who has been working with HNO3 for years (etching
plates for graphic artistic techniques) got lung desease and end up in
hospital. that's the reason i try to use alternative processes for
etching metal, if it is not dangerous for health i shall use it, because
the results are pretty much the same, in some way even better than using
classic techniques.
hanson
news:c5k1c5$elh$1...@bagan.srce.hr...
> hanson wrote:
> > "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <di...@neopax.com> wrote in message
> > news:c5jl5n$2c3pi$1...@ID-120108.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >>kxrexso wrote:
> >>>after some time spending experimenting with ferrous sulphate and
> >>>ammonium ferrous sulphate for galv-etching the steel (
> >>>http://perso.club-internet.fr/gravert/galvetch/notacid.htm ) , i have
> >>>found that etching is much faster when using the hydrochloric
> >>>acid, 9% solution. after use, HCl solution gets greenish. is it because
> >>>of chlorine dissolved in the solution? (some of chlorine gets in the air
> >>>i assume?) should i use sulphuric acid?
> >>
> >>No.
> >>It's iron salts most probably.
> >>Does it smell of chlorine?
> >>Dirk
> >>
> >
> > You can use all kind of acids for etching steel.
> > The etching speed of the acid onto steel same conc & at RT is ~
> > HNO3 > HCl > H2SO4 > H3PO4 > H2N-SO3H > Citric acid.
> > HNO3 gives nasty NOx fumes and the others may give a fizz.
> > You can increase the etch rate dramatically if you heat the solutions
> > of H2SO4, H3PO4, H2N-SO3H or Citric acid. You'll get to a point
> > where they easily surpass the action rates of HNO3 or HCl at RT.
> > Don't heat HNO3 or HCl ---> very nasty fumes.
> > Commercial operations use preferably either hot H2SO4 (cost)
> > or H3PO4 because this produces a phosphate coat onto the steel
> > that prevents rusting of the treated parts. See Phosphatising.
> >
> > If you didn't use any current there will not be any Cl2 evolution.
> >
> > BTW, the link above is quite fascinating..... chem arts of yore.
> > Enjoy chemistry ......but fuck enviros......by all means!
> > ahahahaha.....ahahahanson
>
>
> hm... i didn't mention that i was using current. so i am using
> current... are bubbles that rise from the anode chlorine? it has some
> kind of sour odour so i keep window opened just for sure.
[hanson]
Yes, if by anode you mean the positive electrode the yes,
it is possible that you get Cl2. If you actually can see bubbles
and if this gas is visibly slightly yellow/green then it is chlorine .
But the way you describe it though it is possible that you actually
evolve O2 with some HCl, maybe contaminated with some Cl2.
See, when HCl gets electrolyzed then you get from Cl at the
electrode very quickly reforms per 4 Cl + 2 H2O --> 4 HCl + O2.
Moreover, Cl2 does not have a sour taste. Cl2 makes you cough
and gag so bad that you'll run out of the room. So bad that you
won't even know how it tastes. Its actual taste, at least to me,
was always nauseating. Even at low concentrations. Remember too
chlorine was the first chemical weapon that your great grandpa
was exposed to in the trenches of Ypern in WWI fields on 22. April
1915. So, if you have chlorine then you'll know it. -- You also can
get chlorine testpaper for a few bucks from your swimming pool
supply merchant. Like pH paper it turns bright violet if there's Cl2.
[oxler]
> i remember
> that my professor who has been working with HNO3 for years (etching
> plates for graphic artistic techniques) got lung desease and end up in
> hospital. that's the reason i try to use alternative processes for
> etching metal, if it is not dangerous for health i shall use it, because
> the results are pretty much the same, in some way even better than using
> classic techniques.
[hanson]
Oh my gaaaahd.....two, not only one victim of green turdism.
HNO3 is not exactly known for inducing "lung disease", except in
the agile paranoid mind of the green turds. Your idea or notion
"to use alternative processes for etching metal, if it is not dangerous
for health i shall use it" ...... does NOT EXIST.
Listen, oxler, you and all you other private chem experimenters:
** ALL CHEMICALS ARE DANGEROUS, TOXIC & HAZARDOUS **
bad and unhealthy for you! ----- For gaaaaahds sake, use some
fucking, or not fucking, but use SOME common sense, when fucking
around with chems. Don't eat chemicals, don't inhale them, and
don't smear them onto your skin, foreskin, eyes, ears & assholes.
Read at least one MSDS, not matter how stupid it sounds, and follow
its basic precautionary instructions.
Listen, I said, ENJOY chemistry... and fuck enviros...but NOT yourself.
hahahahaha.......ahahahanson
Oscar Lanzi III
resembles an oxidizing agent strong enough to generate chlorine.
The greenish color is due to iron dissolved as Fe(2+). If you are ever
lucky enough to visit a hot-rolled steel pickling facility, you will not
forget it -- the solution formed by the acid dissolving all that iron
oxide off the strip is as green as can be.
So have no fear of using hydrochloric acid.
--OL
Steve Turner
wrote:
>There cannot be chlorine gas. Nothing in your system even remotely
>resembles an oxidizing agent strong enough to generate chlorine.
As originally stated, no. But read his followup -- he neglected to
mention using electrical current. Minor omission... :)
Steve Turner
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
>
>>i remember
>>that my professor who has been working with HNO3 for years (etching
>>plates for graphic artistic techniques) got lung desease and end up in
>>hospital. that's the reason i try to use alternative processes for
>>etching metal, if it is not dangerous for health i shall use it, because
>>the results are pretty much the same, in some way even better than using
>>classic techniques.
>
>
> [hanson]
> Oh my gaaaahd.....two, not only one victim of green turdism.
> HNO3 is not exactly known for inducing "lung disease", except in
> the agile paranoid mind of the green turds. Your idea or notion
> "to use alternative processes for etching metal, if it is not dangerous
> for health i shall use it" ...... does NOT EXIST.
It is if you breath the NO2 from the reaction.
hanson
> hanson wrote:
> >>kxrexso wrote:
> >>i remember
> >>that my professor who has been working with HNO3 for years (etching
> >>plates for graphic artistic techniques) got lung desease and end up in
> >>hospital. that's the reason i try to use alternative processes for
> >>etching metal, if it is not dangerous for health i shall use it, because
> >>the results are pretty much the same, in some way even better than using
> >>classic techniques.
> >
> >
> > [hanson]
> > Oh my gaaaahd.....two, not only one victim of green turdism.
> > HNO3 is not exactly known for inducing "lung disease", except in
> > the agile paranoid mind of the green turds. Your idea or notion
> > "to use alternative processes for etching metal, if it is not dangerous
> > for health i shall use it" ...... does NOT EXIST.
>
> It is if you breath the NO2 from the reaction.
>
[hanson]
That is what I said. A "not dangerous" process doe NOT exist,
which includes HNO3 --> NOx --> NO2.
Now, here like with all chems. toxicity that matters does lay
in the concentration and the total amount.
a) Exposure to very low conc. of NOx or long periods of time:
The alleged problems caused by NOx as an air pollutant is green
shit noise galore to make money via permit fees and user charges.
For 70+ years NOx has come from Hi-voltage transmission lines
24/7 (you can hear this in the humm) and there is not even
statistical, much less epidemiological evidence that people who live
all their lives under such lines have more lung damage then the norm.
--- Today they sell these el static home air purifiers which emit
NOx in conc. that you can smell and **nobody** makes a peep.
(because the air quality reg. fucks got paid their permit fees).
I considered buying one but I didn't like the NO2 smell.
--- You can even make a case that NOx in these low concentrations
is essential for your health. If you lack it you wont get a hard-on,
not even with Viagra:
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/N/NO.html
b) Hi-conc. of NOx for short periods of time:
Again, here like with all chems. toxicity that matters does lay
in the concentration and the total amount.
In high doses all NOx's are simply very, very potent vasodilators
(like Amy, NG etc). They all produce and give you in high
conc./doses unbelievable painful migraine headaches.
From: [Re: nitromethane via SN2 rxn using methanol?
03-16-2004] When I was in highschool I prepared once
150 ml of the 1,2,3 propanetriol trinitrate, nitro glycerin, to
impress my broadies, just like the dude did in the old movie
with Marilyn Monroe. Only I was more macho and I carried
it around in my shirt pocket in a flat whisky bottle with rubber
stopper. That thing gave me shortly after prep. migraine
headaches so fucking bad and painful that I had to puke. Every
heart beat pulse felt like I was punched in the face and onto the
back of my head.........ahahahahaha...sweet follies of the
tender years.........ahahaha.....ahahahanson
Aliphatic-NOs & -NO2s are used as Antidotes for Cyanide poisoning,
But also **OD** deaths from such Amies have been reported.
..... on another occasion for similar reasons I produced a batch
of N11 Nitrocellulose [from Re: Dicyandiamide on 02-05-2004]
......to make a brilliant orange flash that whistles, but leaves no
trace, no smell and no smoke nor residue. I used to do it, again,
to impress my broads............pure wizardry --- Merlin style...
The prepping called for quenching the reaction mix in a large
volume of ice.....which I didn't have. So, I simply filled the bath
tub 1/2 full with water and "decided" that this should do the
job. Well, it didn't. The mix got hot and within 2-3 seconds the
whole shmier boiled and broiled and I looked in horror into a
huge deep red-brown cloud of NO2 coming out of the tub. In
desperation in dove into that NO2 inferno to rescue my precious
NC. I can't recall any details except that I woke up when I split
my forehead open on the faucets.... which was lucky as it allowed
me to exit the bathroom. So, I had some blinding head aches for
a few days, was hoarse and coughed for 2 weeks and that was
then end of that NO2 poisoning. The real bitch was that the broads
ran away from me because it took about 4 weeks for the brightly
yellow nitro-stained skin to peel off my hands and forearms.
I got no permanent lung damage from this neither........
But all you guys:
Do not follow my examples. You may not be as lucky.....ahahaha...
ahahahaha........ahahahanson
Dirk Bruere at Neopax
You sure that wasn't ozone?
Never did any nitrating as a kid, but I did invent a 'new' explosive that self
confined. Peper dipped in a soln of sodium chlorate and hypophosphite and dried.
Rather sensitive.
hanson
> > [hanson]
> > A "not dangerous" process doe NOT exist,
> > which includes HNO3 --> NOx --> NO2.
> > Now, here like with all chems. toxicity that matters does lay
> > in the concentration and the total amount.
> > a) Exposure to very low conc. of NOx or long periods of time:
> > The alleged problems caused by NOx as an air pollutant is green
> > shit noise galore to make money via permit fees and user charges.
> > For 70+ years NOx has come from Hi-voltage transmission lines
> > 24/7 (you can hear this in the humm) and there is not even
> > statistical, much less epidemiological evidence that people who live
> > all their lives under such lines have more lung damage then the norm.
> > --- Today they sell these el static home air purifiers which emit
> > NOx in conc. that you can smell and **nobody** makes a peep.
> > (because the air quality reg. fucks got paid their permit fees).
> > I considered buying one but I didn't like the NO2 smell.
>
> You sure that wasn't ozone?
>
I myself can taste a very distinct difference between NO2 (NOx)
and O3. --- ...and then Google the 13,300 hits for
== ozone generators + NOx == , where you find
http://www.kofloc.co.jp/kofloc_e/ozone.html that says:
"Since most part of usual ozone generators depend on air for raw material, the
ozonizer has generated large amount of poisonous NOx as a by-product when
ozonizing oxygen in the air."
or http://www.rhtubs.com/indoor-ozone-danger.htm which says
"NOx are produced as by-product almost every time when
ozone is produced from air."
Now, enter the green-air-turds with their "science":
Google 342,000 hits for ozone generation
Google 17,700 hits for ozone N2 conversion.
Google 19,100 hits for ozone NOx conversion.
In these conversion links you can find almost every imaginable
combination of reactions between O2, N2 under energetic condition,
courtesy of the green turds of course, in order for them to find
additional reasons to extort new permit charges and user fees.
[hanson]
[Dirk]
> Never did any nitrating as a kid, but I did invent a 'new' explosive
> that self confined. Peper dipped in a soln of sodium chlorate and
> hypophosphite and dried. Rather sensitive.
> Dirk
>
[hanson]
Cool. I think that a mix like this was even used in one of the early
Strike-matches prior to the KClO3/Red P/Sb2S3 standards.
Now, if you'd used Pepper instead of Paper I can see the
NaClO3 + NaH2PO2 reaction that would have given the
the heat to vaporize the Capsaicin from the Pepper.
A great mix to disperse an unruly mob.
Here's one of my favorite NaClO3 stories:
[Re: Chlorine Dioxide safety Dec-10-2003]
NaClO3, being a soil sterilant, was used to suppress reoccurring
weed growth in unpaved corner parking lot patch. Previously
there was plenty mulch there for the plants. Anyway, the folks
from the maintenance dept threw a 50 lbs bag of NaClO3 onto
the area to prevent that persistently resprouting growth. -- Later,
on a hot summer day I saw, by chance, somebody throw a
burning cigbutt out of a car onto that patch, and immediately
the entire soil patch flared up like a rocket motor for 30 seconds.
10 ft flames! -- A fucking private volcano in the parking lot! ---
ahahaha... It was a great fire works show at 2 pm. -- That was
then and everybody had a laugh including the fire truck dudes
who soaked it with water and one guy mentioned that this thing
was a frequently occurring event.--- If the same thing would
happen today, the moon suiters would come, cops, helicopters,
news media and a vast investigation would begin for possible
terrorist involvement.....and fines, left and right would be levied
for having harmed the "environment" ------- FUCK ENVIROS!
ahahahaha.......ahahahanson
kxrexso
guess i'll stick to it, anyway, thanks for help and advices.