How to: 2-Carbomethoxytropinone to Methylecgonine?
Dustin Caras
I have synthesized 1034 grams of 2-Carbomethoxytropinone (It has
costed me a $1950, I can give you a list of suppliers I've used), and
I am stuck with converting it to methylecgonine.
Could anyone advise which method to use, references to some papers
would be helpfull.
What is the ratio? like 100grams would convert into X grams of
methylecgonine?
Thanks,
Dustin
Uncle Al
Homebrew cocaine starts by purchasing or making tropinone, converting
the tropinone into 2-carbomethoxytropinone (also known as
methyl-tropan-3-one-2-carboxylate), reducing this to ecgonine, and
changing that to cocaine. Since there is no optical isomer selection
anywhere in the path, the resulting "cocaine" is a mixture of 8
isomers (the two bridgehead chiral centers are linked) and quite
worthless. Some of the isomers are toxic.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
claygucci
"Dustin Caras" <vent...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6ffcd51b.02120...@posting.google.com...
claygucci
know shit about chemistry.?
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:3DEB9966...@hate.spam.net...
Dustin Caras
> the tropinone into 2-carbomethoxytropinone (also known as
> methyl-tropan-3-one-2-carboxylate), reducing this to ecgonine, and
> changing that to cocaine. Since there is no optical isomer selection
> anywhere in the path, the resulting "cocaine" is a mixture of 8
> isomers (the two bridgehead chiral centers are linked) and quite
> worthless. Some of the isomers are toxic.
So you are practicly saying that the cocaine I am going to make, its
not gonna worth shit?
This line:
"Homebrew cocaine starts by purchasing or making tropinone, converting
the tropinone into 2-carbomethoxytropinone (also known as
methyl-tropan-3-one-2-carboxylate), reducing this to ecgonine, and
changing that to cocaine."
I've read about million times... It is the line from every online
manual there is.
The second one I do not understand:
"Since there is no optical isomer selection anywhere in the path, the
resulting "cocaine" is a mixture of 8 isomers (the two bridgehead
chiral centers are linked) and quite worthless. Some of the isomers
are toxic."
Could you please clarify this...
If I get the exact same Ecgonine, as the Albert Niemann did in 1858,
why couldn't I convert that Ecgonine to cocaine, which is just one
simple alkaloid?
Why do you think this would not work?
Michael Cowley
> The second one I do not understand:
> "Since there is no optical isomer selection anywhere in the path, the
> resulting "cocaine" is a mixture of 8 isomers (the two bridgehead
> chiral centers are linked) and quite worthless. Some of the isomers
> are toxic."
(from "Uncle Al"
>
> Could you please clarify this...
> If I get the exact same Ecgonine, as the Albert Niemann did in 1858,
> why couldn't I convert that Ecgonine to cocaine, which is just one
> simple alkaloid?
>
> Why do you think this would not work?
Some molecules can exist in two forms (stereoisomers) - left or right
"handed". These two forms are mirror images of each other but they cannot
be superimposed (like your hands - try it) - hence they are different - and
(as most of the enzymes/receptors in your body are also chiral (i.e. possess
handedness) only a particular stereoisomer of cocaine will have any
noticable effect (the "wrong" stereoisomer may have some effect but it will
be greatly reduced).
The bridghead chiral centres are the two carbon atoms in the ring which are
bonded to the nitrogen (see how they have 4 different groups bonded to them?
Thats what makes them chiral), and there are two other chiral centres in
cocaine aside from the bridgehead ones.
The synthesis you are using is probably not stereoselective (ie everytime
the molecule you make can be either R or S you will probably get a 50:50
mixture of both). This means that you will end up with a mixture of 8
different stereoisomers. It may be possible to seperate them out but
probably not without a decent knowledge of chemistry.
You really have two options i guess:
1. carry on with the synthesis and use the (impure) cocaine anyway
(personally, i wouldn't really follow this option).
2. Try to seperate the stereoisomers and purify the cocaine
3. stop now and throw your product away (or sell it on ebay), being the law
abiding type i would probably go for this option.
Seeing as most cocaine you buy "on the street" is full of all kinds of
horrors anyway, the mixture you're getting is probably no worse than what
you get if you buy it off some dodgy geezer.
you could try starting again with a chiral synthesis but again, knowledge of
chemistry is required.
ho hum.
Mike
Michael Cowley
>
> I have synthesized 1034 grams of 2-Carbomethoxytropinone
also, bearing in mind that per "line" you probably only want about 35mg of
cocaine (maximum) do you not think a kg of the stuff is a bit excessive?!
Mike
Dustin Caras
>
> you could try starting again with a chiral synthesis but again, knowledge of
> chemistry is required.
>
Mike, thanks a lot for your help.
I would like to know just one more thing:
How do I know that I got the particular stereoisomers? For example if
cocaine consist od 8, how do I know that I got lets say, 6 right, and
2 wrong?
Michael Cowley
no problem...
> I would like to know just one more thing:
> How do I know that I got the particular stereoisomers? For example if
> cocaine consist od 8, how do I know that I got lets say, 6 right, and
> 2 wrong?
I would do a TLC of your crude mixture to see if they are separated by
something like that... If the yare you could employ some kind of
chromatography to seperate them, but i don't think this would work as the
differences between the molecules are very subtle.
I'm not sure what you mean by "6 right and 2 wrong"... you WILL get all 8
isomers with the synthesis you are doing.
Ultimately the only way to find out what isomer you have is to get the
structure by x ray diffraction. You could try and compare the NMR spectrum
of your product to some in the literature but i don't know if these are
available.
I doubt NMR or X ray crystallography is really much of an option in thise
case, though.
Mike
Gabriel Tojo
> "Dustin Caras" <vent...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6ffcd51b.02120...@posting.google.com...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have synthesized 1034 grams of 2-Carbomethoxytropinone
Dear Dustin,
Making synthetic cocaine is not profitable.
Please, believe me. I have written a review on Cocain Chemistry. See
Pharmachem. 1(3), 9-13 (2002).
The first synthetic preparation of cocaine was made by WillstŠter in
1923. This was a most remarkable synthesis considering that he was
able to isolate not only the right diastereomer, but optically active
cocaine. At a time in which the relative and absolute configuration of
cocaine was not known!! Although he was able to prepare the right
isomer, he was not able to know which one it was. This was like being
able to find the way to an unknown island, but not knowing the
geographical coordinates of the island.
After this initial achievement, several other cocaine synthesis have
been made, but surprinsinly, none was as efficient as the first one.
This is most surprinsing considering that cocaine is a fairly simple
and important molecule that looks achievable by an average research
group.
The key reduction of carbomethoxytropinone to ecgonine methyl ester is
extremely uneficient and difficult. It involves the thermodinamic
reduction of a ketone from the more hindered side. WillstŠter did it
with sodium amalgam, and it keeps on being the reagent of choice. This
reaction, even under this optimal conditions is highly unselective.
Not only the reduction of the ketone is unselective, there is a
problem with the stereochemistry of the carbomethoxy group. Ecgonine
(and cocaine) contains this group on a very unstable axial position
and it tends to isomerize to the more stable ecuatorial position
during the reducti—n.
In other words, this reaction gives a terrible mixture from which you
must isolate methyl ecgonine in very low yield by crystalization. And
it lead us to the next problem:
The vanishing lore of crystallization.
WillstŠter belonged to the old pre-chromatographic school of eficient
crystalliners. In the no-brains school of thought of modern practical
Organic Chemistry, the addiction to chromatography prevents the
development of basic crystallizing skills.
Just believe me, the proportion of Synthetic Organic Chemists with a
doctorate degree able to crystallize methyl ecgonine from the above
mixture is extremely small.
Some final thought: although we have at our disposal a good collection
of hydride donors of all sizes and colours, able to achieve remarkable
diastereoselective and even enantioselective reductions from less
hindered faces, at the beginning of the XXIst century, we do not have
a reliable, mild and efficient reducing agent able to make a
thermodinamic reduction from the more hindered face.
If somebody were able to make a good reduction of methyl ecgonine,
this would ruin the Colombian cartels and the streets would be flooded
with synthetic cocaine.
Best regards.
Gabriel Tojo
Scientific Adviser
www.galchimia.com
Jeppe Madsen
> In other words, this reaction gives a terrible mixture from which you
> must isolate methyl ecgonine in very low yield by crystalization. And
> it lead us to the next problem:
>
> The vanishing lore of crystallization.
>
> WillstŠter belonged to the old pre-chromatographic school of eficient
> crystalliners. In the no-brains school of thought of modern practical
> Organic Chemistry, the addiction to chromatography prevents the
> development of basic crystallizing skills.
>
> Just believe me, the proportion of Synthetic Organic Chemists with a
> doctorate degree able to crystallize methyl ecgonine from the above
> mixture is extremely small.
>
I guess you are right. Out of interest: Do you know of a summary or compilation of this old
school, sort of tricks for crystallisation? Could be interesting for some applications, I guess,
or merely academic...
> Best regards.
>
> Gabriel Tojo
> Scientific Adviser
> www.galchimia.com
Regards,
Jeppe Madsen
Dustin Caras
>
> Ultimately the only way to find out what isomer you have is to get the
> structure by x ray diffraction. You could try and compare the NMR spectrum
> of your product to some in the literature but i don't know if these are
> available.
>
> I doubt NMR or X ray crystallography is really much of an option in thise
> case, though.
>
I could ask if they have that equipment with the institutes (I am from
Yugoslavia, btw), but there is no problem to get real cocain and
'scan' it to get the NMR spectrum in order to compare it with the one
I am making.
I am wondering, and perhaps you would know, Could I get the right
isomers with the SAME MATERIALS (substances) I was using, but with
different synthesis method?
Dustin Caras
and then to convert it to COCAINE, but I was trying for the last few
weeks to get the proper isomers, but I couldn't... I have a lot of
stuff left (enough to make about 10kg of 2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE), and
now I have about 1kg of 2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE but I will sell only
500grams, in case that I discover something new to try...
So, here is the list and the prices are what I paid for, and
quantities of what's left, if you want it I will give it to you for
half that price..
Reactants: Qty Price
SODIUM METOXIDE 1 lt $18.48
TROPINONE 25 g $100.54
DIMETHYLCARBONATE 2.5 kg $68.84
TOLUENE 1 lt $13.20
AMMONIUM CHLORIDE 500 g $43.34
CHLOROFORM 20 lt $382.74
ETHER 20 lt $278.30
POTASSIUM CARBONATE 5 kg $273.08
METHYL ACETATE 5 kg $39.60
ACETONE 2.5 lt $31.02
2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE 500grams $500.00
If you are intrested, drop me an e-mail....
vent...@yahoo.com (Dustin Caras) wrote in message news:<6ffcd51b.02120...@posting.google.com>...
Uncle Al
>
> I've found a way how to convert 2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE into ECGONINE
> and then to convert it to COCAINE, but I was trying for the last few
> weeks to get the proper isomers, but I couldn't... I have a lot of
> stuff left (enough to make about 10kg of 2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE), and
> now I have about 1kg of 2-CARBOMETOXYTROPINONE but I will sell only
> 500grams, in case that I discover something new to try...
[snip]
What a maroon! Effort without understanding is invariably futile.
That is why science works and religion does not work. Hey bozo -
don't you even suspect that if there were a decent synthetic route to
any heavily proscribed recreational pharmaceutical it would not be
grown?
