info on methyl nonyl ketone? (animal reppellent)
Uncle Al
>
> I believe the stuff in animal reppellent that you can buy to keep cats and
> dogs from destroying furniture contains methyl nonyl ketone. Can anybody tell
> me what's up with that ketone, is it toxic to animals etc??
>
> It's a small percentage of the actual spray that is available to repell animals.
>
> Roger.
If it works at all it is because of the smell.
When we got our Ruddy Abyssinian tom kitten Kronos everybody from the
breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
danglers.
He has a cat door. Sun up to sun down he rules the neighborhood. Come
dusk he returns and gets a gobbet of raw beef as a reward - cat candy.
No problem. We grow catnip in the garden. His shoulders are humped
with muscles.
A neighbor who kept her parakeet near her wndow had it die of fright, he
craps and sprays in all the gardens except ours, and 50 assorted smaller
things have been dragged into the house and eaten since January. A
couple of other toms have been shredded. If you don't spay your queen
Kronos will top her.
I can't see how castrating him will change any of that. All the rats
and mice are gone. General agreement is that he earns his keep. What a
cat!
--
Uncle Al Schwartz
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal/
http://www.guyy.demon.co.uk/uncleal/
http://uncleal.within.net/
(Toxic URLs! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Roger ORielly
Eric Lucas
> When we got our Ruddy Abyssinian tom kitten Kronos everybody from the
> breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
> toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
> later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
> touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
> speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
> danglers.
>
> He has a cat door. Sun up to sun down he rules the neighborhood.
You are as responsible for the feral cat problem as are those who don't
get their females spayed.
Ain't it great to abbrogate your social responsibilities in the name of
"it's someone else's problem"?
Eric Lucas
Roman A Kresinski
It's freedom. Are you free to shoot a cat in your own garden?
BC
Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37707964...@worldnet.att.net...
> Uncle Al wrote:
>
> > When we got our Ruddy Abyssinian tom kitten Kronos everybody from the
> > breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
> > toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
> > later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
> > touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
> > speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
> > danglers.
> >
> > He has a cat door. Sun up to sun down he rules the neighborhood.
>
>
> You are as responsible for the feral cat problem as are those who don't
> get their females spayed.
>
> Ain't it great to abbrogate your social responsibilities in the name of
> "it's someone else's problem"?
>
Social Responsibilities? Cat's are free agents. If you don't believe it, get
a stray and put it on a leash. They live where they want to live, if they
don't like your house... they leave (after they destroy it). Why don't you
go sterilise a few spotted owls.
Treat a cat as an equal and you have someone who'll do their part, and a
friend.
We have 6 cats, and the only ones that fight between themselves are female,
go figure...
I recieve quite a collection of dead rats, birds and miscellaneous small
critters... and not one dog will venture within 150 yards of our house.
Mr. Lucas, I assume you believe that we all share responsibility for
maintaining this beautiful environment and doing 'whats right' by our
neghbor... the golden rule is the only rule... blah blah blah. You must
close your eyes when you're polishing those rosy glasses...
I'd love to see your face if someone had the sense to sterilise the liberal
beans you call your balls...
-Say it like it is or don't say anything.
Brent Clevenger
Private Individual and freelance asshole!
Uncle Al
>
> Uncle Al wrote:
>
> > When we got our Ruddy Abyssinian tom kitten Kronos everybody from the
> > breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
> > toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
> > later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
> > touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
> > speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
> > danglers.
> >
> > He has a cat door. Sun up to sun down he rules the neighborhood.
>
> You are as responsible for the feral cat problem as are those who don't
> get their females spayed.
>
> Ain't it great to abbrogate your social responsibilities in the name of
> "it's someone else's problem"?
>
Feral cat problem? Packs of cats rampaging through neighborhoods,
eating children, assaulting adults? The last "feral cat problem" was
addressed by the One True Church. God responded with the Black Plague -
Nature's way of saying "pookie, pookie."
Cities have feral cats, feral dogs, and feral humans. I 100% support
massive Police sweeps for spaying and neutering feral humans. Then
dogs. If you still think it is a good idea, we do cats.
Jim Naylor
>Uncle Al wrote:
>
>> When we got our Ruddy Abyssinian tom kitten Kronos everybody from the
>> breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
>> toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
>> later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
>> touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
>> speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
>> danglers.
...describing the fishing tackle
>>
>> He has a cat door. Sun up to sun down he rules the neighborhood.
>
...hmm, thinks he'll go trolling for a little fun and relaxation
>
>You are as responsible for the feral cat problem as are those who don't
>get their females spayed.
AhHah--a bite!
>
>Ain't it great to abbrogate your social responsibilities in the name of
>"it's someone else's problem"?
>
> Eric Lucas
And he swallows it whole!!! Yippeee!!!
--
Jim Naylor
jrna...@concentric.net
Roger ORielly
i.e. methyl nonyl ketone.
Fdchemdh
If the substance works, how about this for an explanation - the branched
ketone might be an 'impact odorant' produced only by some microbe that was
particularly virulent to canines and felines, and with their keen sense of
smell, they both became hard-wired to avoid it like the plague. or else some
MHC incompatibility. (I said it 'might'...)
p.s. hey Lance-a-lot (fierce grin), people who willingly share their
hard-earned Chemistry knowledge can get away with adding the occasional brief
off-topic commentary or response, it's usually for purposes of illustration.
From novices, spouting off is negative, a roadblock, illustrating nothing of
substance. When your home lab and refresher course gets going, you can
actually help out here. If ya gotta fart in the car (who hasn't), don't insert
a megaphone. At least roll down the window, burn off the methane. So I won't
start in on how much me and my city neighbors hate being wakened at 3 a.m. by
deadbeat daddy cat pillaging and plundering, making their other-wordly sounds.
A well-aimed shoe night after night. A brown 'gift.' Did W.C. Fields say
he liked cat (depending how it's cooked)? 'Course it's better'n beady-eyed
li'l mice and big ol' rats, no question. snakes? quick worms? eels?
rodent-on-rotisserie? j/k
BC
> p.s. hey Lance-a-lot (fierce grin), people who willingly share their
> hard-earned Chemistry knowledge can get away with adding the occasional
brief
> off-topic commentary or response, it's usually for purposes of
illustration.
> From novices, spouting off is negative, a roadblock, illustrating
nothing of
> substance. When your home lab and refresher course gets going, you can
> actually help out here. If ya gotta fart in the car (who hasn't), don't
insert
> a megaphone. At least roll down the window, burn off the methane. So I
won't
> start in on how much me and my city neighbors hate being wakened at 3 a.m.
by
> deadbeat daddy cat pillaging and plundering, making their other-wordly
sounds.
> A well-aimed shoe night after night. A brown 'gift.' Did W.C.
Fields say
> he liked cat (depending how it's cooked)? 'Course it's better'n
beady-eyed
> li'l mice and big ol' rats, no question. snakes? quick worms? eels?
> rodent-on-rotisserie? j/k
Brent Wrote:
I'm not of the impression that this is a club with levels of membership,
entitling free speech to those of degree status and above.
I wouldn't comment on technical matter outside my expertise. My comment was
on topic, to the response of one of your 'elite members' - Mr. Lucas. My
methods of communication are within acceptable tolerances (etiquette), and
weather you like them or not, can be posted.
If your "not going to start in", then don't. You could have omitted the
mini-rant after that sentence and still made your point. Excessive verbiage
is only a problem if you make it one. This isn't Camelot, keep it sheathed.
Brent Clevenger
blue...@comports.com
***You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.
Its most likely that never the twain shall meet.***
pk
it in juice from a can of tuna (or some other feline favorite), and
leave balls of the stuff around your yard. Guaranteed to stop a cat who
eats from coming back - ever.
I'm not an advocate for cruelty to animals, but I sure as hell wouldn't
put up with an irresponsible neighbor like Al without defending myself.
I happen to have lost a family pet cat to tinsel several years ago, so
it is lethal to cats. Our cat was NEVER allowed to roam freely.
pk
Barry Hunt
Roger ORielly wrote:
> Well, I'll take it no one knows anything about the compound in question?
> i.e. methyl nonyl ketone.
Sorry Roger, I stayed out of this one expecting others to give you a civil
response!
I have used the product in a Dog and Cat Repellent aerosol 20 years ago. It
didn't work.
It was supplied by McGlaughlin Gormley and King (?Spelling - MGK will do).
It was used at 2% or thereabouts.
regards
Barry Hunt
Eric Lucas
>
> Yup: I have tried it and my border collie seems to actually like the stuff.
>
> It smells a lot (to me) like some citrus extract (although I know it's sourced
> synthetically).
>
> Does anyone know if it is contained in citrus peel ?
I would bet 2-undecanone is essentially odorless. Rather, I'll bet the
formulation you used had d-limonene as the solvent/carrier. And yes,
d-limonene is extracted from orange peels. It's dirt cheap and an
excellent non-polar solvent that happens to have a not-too-unpleasant
smell. (If you like the smell, then try using the stuff as a
heat-transfer fluid in lab, and put up with the smell 8 hours a day,
every day for a month. It quickly becomes cloying and unpleasant.)
Eric Lucas
Uncle Al
>
> Yup: I have tried it and my border collie seems to actually like the stuff.
>
> It smells a lot (to me) like some citrus extract (although I know it's sourced
> synthetically).
>
> Does anyone know if it is contained in citrus peel ?
http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/ Look it up to see if it occurs naturally.
I bet the solvent vehicle is in part a "natural" citrus extract as
opposed to a nasty petroluem-derived chemical like limonene.
Chris Vernon
It smells a lot (to me) like some citrus extract (although I know it's sourced
synthetically).
Does anyone know if it is contained in citrus peel ?
Chris
Bruce Hamilton
Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Chris Vernon wrote:
>> It smells a lot (to me) like some citrus extract (although I know it's sourced
>> synthetically). Does anyone know if it is contained in citrus peel ?
>formulation you used had d-limonene as the solvent/carrier.
" Methyl Nonyl Ketone ( 2-Undecanone )
Oily liquid, strong odor.....
Derivation : Oil of Rue, also made synthetically.
Uses: Perfumery; flavouring. "
Condensed Chemical Dictionary. 8th Edition.
AFAIK, 2-undecanone has not been reported as a major component
of citrus oils, but it's quite likely to be present in trace amounts. It
offers a slight orange-fruit aroma with bitter undertone, and was used to
provide base aromas with fatty-fruit ( like coconut ) characteristics,
however the flavour is acrid at higher concentrations.
Oil of Rue can contain up to 90% of methyl nonyl ketone, which is usually the
major constituent. Rue oil is considered to have a fruity-orange-like odour,
with a characteristic acrid undertone that makes it unpleasant. Oil of Rue
causes damage to the mucous membranes and can damage the skin, and
may cause haemorrhaging if swallowed, so it's not commonly used in high
concentrations in perfumes.
Incidentally, a local company here is marketing an aminal repellant
that has been very successful. It's applied as a paste to the property
boundaries ( or areas you don't want cats/dogs/etc ), and lasts up to a
month or so. IIRC, it contains a synthetic medium-volatility organo-sulfur
compound, and perhaps also an nitrogen-containing organic, molecules
similar to those found in scent markings of some animals.
Bruce Hamilton
DanHarring
>Oil of Rue can contain up to 90% of methyl nonyl ketone...
>>Eric Lucas <eal...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>>Chris Vernon wrote: (clip)
I'm still holding out faint hope that this repellent ketone we're talking about
is something more exotic than the mundane 2-alkanone (ie, i thought would have
an iso-alkane skeleton and/or the oxygen tacked on somewhere other than at the
2 position)
Anyhow, The Merck Index entry for Oil of Rue (Ruta graveolens) says
- characteristic sharp unpleasant odor…but odor is pleasant on dilution
- ingestion … may cause … confusion, convulsion, death
- USE: flavoring agent in food
- (the irony in these abbreviated entries always gets me laughing - "Effects -
may cause death. Main use - food flavoring additive")
- constit. About 90% methyl nonyl ketone; methyl anthranilate
- Should be avoided during pregnancy.
(It's unrelated to Syrian Rue and passiflora, from what I can tell.)
I'm no rocket scientist when it comes to understanding and explaining pure
chemistry and theoretical chem, but from experience I can say that 2-undecanone
probably isn't in the top 50 constituents of a good citrus aroma extract.
Citrus aroma is mostly terpenes, esters, and a touch of the C6, C8, C10 and C12
alkan-als and -ols. Forget (in this one case) what the scattered book entries
say; looking at the whole chromatogram is more revealing. Low levels of the
various 2-alkanones originating from enzymic degradation of fatty acids are
probably unavoidable when extracting plant or animal tissue. By themselves,
the shorter chain alkan-2-ones are quite penetrating and sharp-smelling, an
acrid, rancid potato chip or butter odor. But the longer the chain, the less
nasty it gets. Heptanone (methyl amyl ketone) is a solvent in some paints, and
so there's that association in our brains. This IS out of the ordinary, for a
plant volatile oil, to have a single alkanone account for 90% of it. The
methyl anthranilate would certainly help smooth out the odor, assuming The
Index entry is accurate.
On the humorous side of repellants, and sorry if parts of this are morbid,
another (far-fetched) possibility one might consider is wolf or coyote urine -
no, I don't know of a commercial source, don't want to harvest it myself, and
don't know how it'd do indoors - but i remember reading about it in the Animal
Behavior, or Physiology and Behavior journals. Just like cat-urine odor will
measurably stress out mice, their tails flick sooner or something. Fortunately
chemists and physical scientists don't deal with such measurements. It seems
like Experientia carried the only report on methyl nonyl ketone that I've ever
run across, 10+ yrs ago. One book chapter on semiochemicals said that female
coyote urine headspace volatiles were more than 50% 3-methylbut-3-enyl
sulphide. And equally un-fascinating, mouse prepuce secretions (which
were found to be influenced by within-litter intra-uteral jockeying for
position before birth, Physiology and Behavior, Vol 51, 1991, p 11-16) can
affect behavior of fellow conspecifics, etc… (got some tweezers?) I once
roomed with an Afghan hound that fled from guacamole dip, I don't know if it
was the fresh-squeezed lemon juice or mashed onion near the nose, the bright
green color, or what, I never had need to exploit that particular observation.
Dan H
cj...@one.net.au
B.Ham...@irl.cri.nz (Bruce Hamilton) wrote:
>
> Incidentally, a local company here is marketing an aminal repellant
> that has been very successful. It's applied as a paste to the property
> boundaries ( or areas you don't want cats/dogs/etc ), and lasts up to
a
> month or so. IIRC, it contains a synthetic medium-volatility organo-
sulfur
> compound, and perhaps also an nitrogen-containing organic, molecules
> similar to those found in scent markings of some animals.
>
landscaping the backyard. My 4 cats just cant resist fouling his river
red aggregate borders.
He was initially friendly but now is starting to get very agro with me
because every day he is cleaning up cat poop.
Bruce,for the sake of a peaceful neighbourhood, can you please give me
further details, ie product name & manufacturer/distributer.
If necessary I will import it myself, since I have found nothing like
it in Australia
Regards
Colin
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bruce Hamilton
>Bruce,for the sake of a peaceful neighbourhood, can you please give me
>further details, ie product name & manufacturer/distributer.
>If necessary I will import it myself, since I have found nothing like
>it in Australia
http://vic-link.co.nz/skunkshot/index.html
That points to a site that lists various contact methods
for the company that makes it, including the following
address in Australia
Michael Sewel
SkunkShot Australia
PO Box 305
Box Hill
Victoria 3128
Ph: (61) 3 9898 7090
Fax: (61) 3 9898 7100
Bruce Hamilton
bobbeetle...@gmail.com
To them as they are suffering from overpopulation with no food fresh water to thrive. You all are a bunch of irresponsible useless idiots if you don’t spay and neuter
Your cats it also causes more euthanasia of adult cats to make room for the tons of kittens out there it’s a loose loose for the cats Spay and neuter the dam cats
You brainless fools
Frank
neutered himself.
angel...@gmail.com
> If it works at all it is because of the smell.
>
> breeder to the vet wanted to cut off his goodies. He'll spray, Abby
> toms are too vicious to handle, he'll shred the house... Two years
> later Kronos is the nicest sweetest, purringest lover. He has never
> touched anything other than his scratching posts - not even the stereo
> speakers. He has never sprayed in the house. He's got a great set of
> danglers.
>
> dusk he returns and gets a gobbet of raw beef as a reward - cat candy.
> No problem. We grow catnip in the garden. His shoulders are humped
> with muscles.
>
> A neighbor who kept her parakeet near her wndow had it die of fright, he
> craps and sprays in all the gardens except ours, and 50 assorted smaller
> things have been dragged into the house and eaten since January. A
> couple of other toms have been shredded. If you don't spay your queen
> Kronos will top her.
>
> I can't see how castrating him will change any of that. All the rats
> and mice are gone. General agreement is that he earns his keep. What a
> cat!
>