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How relative permittivity of Water is altered in a salt solution?
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Angelo
Dec 19, 2011, 6:40:28 AM12/19/11
to
Until today I've been able to retrieve this (old) link:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/fr7k44t134prp6k5/
Apparently, I don't understand if salt (table salt, say)
can be added to water and make a real solution
because the water permittivity so decreases or
arises and, as a side question, if this shift dictates
the solubility (of the salt).
However, I'm mostly interested in how behaves
(given a solvent and a solute) the solution
relative permittivity as a function of the solute
concentration.
Best regards,
Angelo
http://www.springerlink.com/content/fr7k44t134prp6k5/
Apparently, I don't understand if salt (table salt, say)
can be added to water and make a real solution
because the water permittivity so decreases or
arises and, as a side question, if this shift dictates
the solubility (of the salt).
However, I'm mostly interested in how behaves
(given a solvent and a solute) the solution
relative permittivity as a function of the solute
concentration.
Best regards,
Angelo
Salmon Egg
Dec 19, 2011, 12:25:45 PM12/19/11
to
In article
<774f8f04-1ac2-4325...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
Each of the two paragraphs in your post is a single (run-on) sentence,
That makes then each one of the grammatically difficult to understand,
My interpretation of your question is that you are trying to understand
chemistry of solutions by attributing change of the solutions electrical
properties to the solute. My guess is you are trying to interpret the
chemical properties of the just from the change in permittivity, This
cannot be successful because there are chemical properties that are not
describable by physical properties alone.
As far as the permittivity is concerned, the main thing the salt does is
to add a frequency dependent imaginary component to the permittivity.
--
Sam
Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
<774f8f04-1ac2-4325...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
That makes then each one of the grammatically difficult to understand,
My interpretation of your question is that you are trying to understand
chemistry of solutions by attributing change of the solutions electrical
properties to the solute. My guess is you are trying to interpret the
chemical properties of the just from the change in permittivity, This
cannot be successful because there are chemical properties that are not
describable by physical properties alone.
As far as the permittivity is concerned, the main thing the salt does is
to add a frequency dependent imaginary component to the permittivity.
--
Sam
Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
Angelo
Dec 19, 2011, 2:08:28 PM12/19/11
to
On 19 Dic, 18:25, Salmon Egg <Salmon...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> In article
> <774f8f04-1ac2-4325-9e56-e69805e5b...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
> Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
> > Until today I've been able to retrieve this (old) link:
> >http://www.springerlink.com/content/fr7k44t134prp6k5/
>
> > Apparently, I don't understand if salt (table salt, say)
> > can be added to water and make a real solution
> > because the water permittivity so decreases or
> > arises and, as a side question, if this shift dictates
> > the solubility (of the salt).
>
> > However, I'm mostly interested in how behaves
> > (given a solvent and a solute) the solution
> > relative permittivity as a function of the solute
> > concentration.
>
> > Best regards,
> > Angelo
>
> Each of the two paragraphs in your post is a single (run-on) sentence,
> That makes then each one of the grammatically difficult to understand,
oK, I understand and keep note for the future.
> My interpretation of your question is that you are trying to understand
> chemistry of solutions by attributing change of the solutions electrical
> properties to the solute.
Of course I'm referring to ordinary solutes (KCl, KCLO3, KClO4
and they alike Na and Li salts)
My guess is you are trying to interpret the
> chemical properties of the just from the change in permittivity,
Yes, sir
This
> cannot be successful because there are chemical properties that are not
> describable by physical properties alone.
I know, but the permettivity of water I think
is substantial.
> As far as the permittivity is concerned, the main thing the salt does is
> to add a frequency dependent imaginary component to the permittivity.
As do you perhaps expect, I'm interested to know
1) if adding salt of a few type I specified above (no
cathode or anode hydrolysis for our convenience
modify the pH of the solution (and so in what sense)
the dielectric constant of the solution relative to that
of H2O;
Sorry, to tired to prosecute the discussion.
Best regards
ngelo
> In article
> <774f8f04-1ac2-4325-9e56-e69805e5b...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
> Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
> > Until today I've been able to retrieve this (old) link:
> >http://www.springerlink.com/content/fr7k44t134prp6k5/
>
> > Apparently, I don't understand if salt (table salt, say)
> > can be added to water and make a real solution
> > because the water permittivity so decreases or
> > arises and, as a side question, if this shift dictates
> > the solubility (of the salt).
>
> > However, I'm mostly interested in how behaves
> > (given a solvent and a solute) the solution
> > relative permittivity as a function of the solute
> > concentration.
>
> > Best regards,
> > Angelo
>
> Each of the two paragraphs in your post is a single (run-on) sentence,
> That makes then each one of the grammatically difficult to understand,
> My interpretation of your question is that you are trying to understand
> chemistry of solutions by attributing change of the solutions electrical
> properties to the solute.
and they alike Na and Li salts)
My guess is you are trying to interpret the
> chemical properties of the just from the change in permittivity,
This
> cannot be successful because there are chemical properties that are not
> describable by physical properties alone.
is substantial.
> As far as the permittivity is concerned, the main thing the salt does is
> to add a frequency dependent imaginary component to the permittivity.
1) if adding salt of a few type I specified above (no
cathode or anode hydrolysis for our convenience
modify the pH of the solution (and so in what sense)
the dielectric constant of the solution relative to that
of H2O;
Sorry, to tired to prosecute the discussion.
Best regards
ngelo
Salmon Egg
Dec 19, 2011, 3:24:56 PM12/19/11
to
In article
<436b8f75-a819-4d2c...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
constant of 90 although Wikipedia says 80. It is this high permittivity
that makes water a good solvent for ionic salts. It reduces the
attraction between ionic constituents forming the salt.
At light frequencies, the refractive index is about 4/3 or a dielectric
constant of 16/9. Once dissolved, dilute solutions of salt will not
greatly affect the real part of the water's dielectric constant. The
salt will add considerable conductivity to the small amount of
conductivity in pure water. The frequency dependence of that
conductivity will depend on the properties of the solvated ions.
How these changes with frequency affect the chemical properties is
beyond my knowledge.
<436b8f75-a819-4d2c...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Angelo <patrizio...@libero.it> wrote:
> As do you perhaps expect, I'm interested to know
> 1) if adding salt of a few type I specified above (no
> cathode or anode hydrolysis for our convenience
> modify the pH of the solution (and so in what sense)
> the dielectric constant of the solution relative to that
> of H2O;
The permittivity of water is very high. IIRC, water has a dielectric
> As do you perhaps expect, I'm interested to know
> 1) if adding salt of a few type I specified above (no
> cathode or anode hydrolysis for our convenience
> modify the pH of the solution (and so in what sense)
> the dielectric constant of the solution relative to that
> of H2O;
constant of 90 although Wikipedia says 80. It is this high permittivity
that makes water a good solvent for ionic salts. It reduces the
attraction between ionic constituents forming the salt.
At light frequencies, the refractive index is about 4/3 or a dielectric
constant of 16/9. Once dissolved, dilute solutions of salt will not
greatly affect the real part of the water's dielectric constant. The
salt will add considerable conductivity to the small amount of
conductivity in pure water. The frequency dependence of that
conductivity will depend on the properties of the solvated ions.
How these changes with frequency affect the chemical properties is
beyond my knowledge.
Angelo
Dec 19, 2011, 11:04:54 PM12/19/11
to
> <436b8f75-a819-4d2c-8fc6-bb722b573...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
Cut
> Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
Referring to my OP, I asked (pardon for the
lack of clarity) if any (decent) saline solute
may or may not alter the permittivity of the
water solution, and, secondarily, how that
permittivity of solution varies at variyng the
solute concentration (molarity, molality,
mole fraction, etc.) Such permittivity should
be the 'static' one and, as such, frequency
independent.
> How these changes with frequency affect the chemical properties is
> beyond my knowledge.
I didn't require them :)
> --
>
> Sam
>
> Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
> Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
Best regards
Angelo
Cut
> Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
Referring to my OP, I asked (pardon for the
lack of clarity) if any (decent) saline solute
may or may not alter the permittivity of the
water solution, and, secondarily, how that
permittivity of solution varies at variyng the
solute concentration (molarity, molality,
mole fraction, etc.) Such permittivity should
be the 'static' one and, as such, frequency
independent.
> How these changes with frequency affect the chemical properties is
> beyond my knowledge.
> --
>
> Sam
>
> Conservatives are against Darwinism but for natural selection.
> Liberals are for Darwinism but totally against any selection.
Angelo
dlzc
Dec 20, 2011, 9:41:54 AM12/20/11
to
Dear Angelo:
On Dec 19, 9:04 pm, Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
> On 19 Dic, 21:24, Salmon Egg <Salmon...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <436b8f75-a819-4d2c-8fc6-bb722b573...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Cut
>
> > Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
>
> Referring to my OP, I asked (pardon for the
> lack of clarity) if any (decent) saline solute
> may or may not alter the permittivity of the
> water solution, and, secondarily, how that
> permittivity of solution varies at variyng the
> solute concentration (molarity, molality,
> mole fraction, etc.) Such permittivity should
> be the 'static' one and, as such, frequency
> independent.
May or may not help:
http://www.ocean.washington.edu/courses/oc400/Lecture_Notes/CHPT3.pdf
David A. Smith
On Dec 19, 9:04 pm, Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
> On 19 Dic, 21:24, Salmon Egg <Salmon...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <436b8f75-a819-4d2c-8fc6-bb722b573...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Cut
>
> > Angelo <patrizio.pan-2...@libero.it> wrote:
>
> Referring to my OP, I asked (pardon for the
> lack of clarity) if any (decent) saline solute
> may or may not alter the permittivity of the
> water solution, and, secondarily, how that
> permittivity of solution varies at variyng the
> solute concentration (molarity, molality,
> mole fraction, etc.) Such permittivity should
> be the 'static' one and, as such, frequency
> independent.
http://www.ocean.washington.edu/courses/oc400/Lecture_Notes/CHPT3.pdf
David A. Smith
Angelo
Dec 20, 2011, 12:27:35 PM12/20/11
to
within some day.
Thank you so much indeed.
Best regards
Angelo
Angelo
Dec 20, 2011, 12:17:48 PM12/20/11
to
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