Electrolytic rust removal ?
Stig Holmquist
soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
Stig Holmquist
Revenge
> There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
> soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
>
> Stig Holmquist
>
the use of HCl and more strong adding current using iron as anode.
Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
hanson
"Revenge" <reve...@infinito.it> wrote in message
news:4839d52b$0$40216$4faf...@reader5.news.tin.it...
> Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
>> There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
>> soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
>>
>> Stig Holmquist
>>
> Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more efficient the
> use of HCl and more strong adding current using iron as anode.
> Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
>
"Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.
>
To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.
>
Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".
>
Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors!
ahaha.. ahahahanson
tadchem
> "Revenge" <revenc...@infinito.it> wrote in message
>
> news:4839d52b$0$40216$4faf...@reader5.news.tin.it...> Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
> >> There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
> >> soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
>
> >> Stig Holmquist
>
> > use of HCl and more strong adding current using iron as anode.
> > Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
>
> hanson wrote:
>
> "Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
> in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
> the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
> It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
> Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.
>
> To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
> solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
> dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.
>
> Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
> make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
> a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
> attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".
>
> Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors!
> ahaha.. ahahahanson
Iron oxide, hydrous oxide, hydroxide has low solubility. Solubility
is accelerated with strong acid:
Fe2O3 + (H+) -(aqueous)-> Fe(OH)3 -> Fe(H2O)
solid (gel) (solution)
<unbalanced reaction, somewhat simplified>
Ligands such as chloride, citrate, or EDTA (as in CLR rust remover)
which form stable complexes with iron facilitate this dissolution.
Muriatic acid (HCl solution, available as pH treatment for swimming
pools) is excellent for rust removal.
Sometimes, when it is desirable to conserve the metal, the object can
be sealed in an oxygen-free chamber with H2 gas and heated to over
100° C. (Special equipment required! Do not try this at home unless
you own an autoclave, possess the requisite safety equipment, and are
experienced with reactive atmospheres.) This reduces the rust back to
iron metal.
Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
hanson
have fun with... "Now comes the bizarre part..."
>
"tadchem" <tad...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8f2b3799-6498-4692...@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using
baking soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
>
Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more
efficient the use of HCl and more strong adding current
using iron as anode.
Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
>
hanson wrote:
"Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.
To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.
Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".
>
"tadchem" <tad...@comcast.net> wrote:
Iron oxide, hydrous oxide, hydroxide has low solubility.
Solubility is accelerated with strong acid:
Fe2O3 + (H+) -(aqueous)-> Fe(OH)3 -> Fe(H2O)
solid (gel) (solution)
<unbalanced reaction, somewhat simplified>
Ligands such as chloride, citrate, or EDTA (as in CLR rust
remover) which form stable complexes with iron facilitate this
dissolution. Muriatic acid (HCl solution, available as pH
treatment for swimming pools) is excellent for rust removal.
Sometimes, when it is desirable to conserve the metal, the
object can be sealed in an oxygen-free chamber with H2 gas
and heated to over 100° C. (Special equipment required!
Do not try this at home unless you own an autoclave, possess
the requisite safety equipment, and are experienced with
reactive atmospheres.) This reduces the rust back to iron
>
hanson wrote:
"This reduces the rust back to iron metal"... with the many
times nasty drawback that the recovered metal is powdery &
spongy ... ahahaha... But staying on the subject of industrial
rust- and heat scale removal, here is how Jet engines
were/are prepared and prepped for overhaul purposes.
>
The selected steel parts from disassembly are immersed in
(1) a solution of 1 lb/gallon NaOH with 10-20% KMnO4
(Potassium permanganate) at 180-200°F for 30 min. That
oxidizes all Fe2+ into Fe3+ compounds & most importantly
it oxidizes Cr2,3,4+ into soluble Cr6+ chromates, and same
for the Vanadium, V and Tungsten, W, and similar for Ni & Co.
(2) The parts are then rinsed and immersed into a solution
of 1 lb/gal NaOH (Caustic Soda)) containing 20% Sodium
gluconate or Sodium Boro Heptagluconate+ wetting agent
for 30 minutes at 150-160°F. This solubilizes the "rust".
(3) The parts are then rinsed and dipped in a room-temp.
solution of 1/2-1 lb NaHSO4 (Sodium Bisulfate) + inhibitors
such as C16-C18-fatty Dimethylamines. This removes the
rest of the unwanted surface contaminants.
(4) Rinse, dry and inspect the parts.
>
Now comes the bizarre part... hahaha... I got invited by
a seasoned chem-peddler to come along to see the operation,
around midnight when nobody else was around. Proudly
he showed me "his Account"... a series of huge tanks
each 10'000 gallon filled with the above solutions. On the
other side of the Hangar, he pointed out, that there was the
line of the competition. -- As we strolled along "His" line
of tanks he let out a loud holler of cheer followed by a
broad smile saying: "Kid, I gotta return them the favor". The
color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)
and Tank # 2 (Gluc) was not clear but murky brown (MnO2).
ahahaha... So, the peddler looked & found a 5 gallon bucket,
walked over to the competion's line and poured some
20 buckets full of tank #1 solution into tank #2 and then
repeated that from tank#2 into tank #1.
>
Those here with some chem know-how, will know exactly
what this mutual sabotage did. I knew right away what was
going on chemically. But what I did not know then was the
game that was played here. I didn't say anything on the way
to the Bar. There to my utter surprise my peddler met the
competition's peddler who said: "What the fuck took you
so long"... And they bullshited like 2 long lost buddies.
>
Years later, I learned that this was standard procedure,
"a revenue enhancement operation amongst friends"
to force the customer to buy more chemicals... with the
goal that the customer should eventually prefer one peddler
over the other one and let him have all the business...
>
This then was my introduction into world of 'hardball" that
is played in all types of political, academic or industrial
endeavors. Most workers or employees do not know what's
really going in their places of employment, outside their
labs benches or cubicles with its petty in-fights amongst
\co-workers. Only the ones who are involved in the financial
aspects of the business do know about theses games ....
and they keep the snouts shut since the are implicated.
>
Once, one of my contractors labeled these plays & games
laconically as "traditional industrial warfare and combat"...
ahahaha...
>
One day I may tell you how the Peddler, the Mayor of the
City and the Superior Court Judge were playing the game
together such that the entire company + wives and the
Major and Judge with their entourages "financed" a free
5 day vacation in the Bahamans for everybody, including
$200 cash for anyybody to gamble in the casino... ahahaha..
ahaha... ahahahanson
Androcles
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message
news:LuI_j.2582$4c.1314@trnddc08...
share of the market. One makes CatFood and the other makes
KatFood. To getter a bigger share, one goes into competition
with himself and starts a new product line, KittyFood.
The three products have now split the market 33-33-33 which
is really 67-33 because there are only two manufacturers. So the
other does the same thing and before you know it we've got
cat food for kittens, cat food for healthy cats, cat food for pregnant
cats and cat food for senior cats, plus a house full of mice while
the lazy cat is sleeping off his high fibre, specially nutritious
dinner that also cleans his fuckin' teeth...
--
Androcles
Why did Einstein say
the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
the "time" each way is the same?
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Father Haskell
Usually washing soda, sodium carbonate, is the electrolyte.
The method is cheap, fast, ingredients easy to find, and results
are excellent.
You can also try molasses, 1 part to 9 parts water. Submerge
the rusted part for a week. Molasses is a good chelating
agent, will strip the rust to bare, clean iron.
With either method, oil the part *immediately* after
cleaning to keep it from rusting again.
hanson
have fun with... "Now comes the bizarre part..."
>
>
news:eUI_j.15570$zY7....@newsfe11.ams2...
> Reminds me of the pet food manufacturers that have a 50-50
> share of the market. One makes CatFood and the other makes
> KatFood. To getter a bigger share, one goes into competition
> with himself and starts a new product line, KittyFood.
> The three products have now split the market 33-33-33 which
> is really 67-33 because there are only two manufacturers. So the
> other does the same thing and before you know it we've got
> cat food for kittens, cat food for healthy cats, cat food for pregnant
> cats and cat food for senior cats, plus a house full of mice while
> the lazy cat is sleeping off his high fibre, specially nutritious
> dinner that also cleans his fuckin' teeth...
>
... ahahaha... very perceptive Andro, and now extend that
observation into other goods on the market... with all types
of cars, appliances, TVs, fridges, ovens, stoves, cutlery,
medications, el. instruments, even nuts, bolts and springs
etc... it's the same game that you have noticed with your
example, but that is an accepted and legit practice
>
---- It's known as ***"Private Labeling"*** ----
>
A biz orders as many finished parts/components as possible
to assemble its product. Making such components from
scratch is impossible because of the cocksucking green
shits who have burdened such endeavors with prohibitive
regulations that include permit fees, production charges
storage permit fee, recycling demand charges etc.. etc...
>
So since the 1970's the manufacture of components was
OUT SOURCED to Korea and China, then to India, Pakistan
& to the meso-Americas where they ACTUALLY produce
the goods. -- So, you simply place from there a huge order
(100'000 minimum) of a part for your product. All these parts
that are made there originate from a single mother template
and the output is modified slightly according to you order
specs that include a few additional holes or cutouts and
recesses, different thread types and color of the finish..
and of course with a your specified labels and part number
stamped onto/into it... giving the impression that you have
manufactured it yourself... ahahaha... ahahaha... ahahaha..
>
= Notice for instance how in the apparel and shoe business
charges fly back and forth about the use of child-labor in
these manufacturing countries. Praise the fucking enviros for
that!
= Notice how the door-, trunk-, and tail section parts for a
2003 car of maker X is awfully similar to a same sized
model on a car yr 2006 from a (different) care maker Y...
The stamping molds for these large parts are costly
and there is a busy second hand market for them...
== Then go to the auto part store where you get after-market
items.... ahaha... if you know what to look for in the code
numbers you can see that the different Brands are actually
made by the same oversea producer... only the final price
and the adverisments are different.. each of the Brand ads
assuring you that their part is better... then the identical one
that is sold by their competitor... ahahaha....
All that is legit and accepted practice.. But what I described
above first, is not... That is a commonly practiced white collar
crime... but as long as it's done with mutual consent of the
parties who play the game to fleece the taxpayers or the
clueless customers... who is there that complains?...
>
Remember: "Behind every great fortune there is a crime",
Honoré de Balzac, Paris, ca. 1840...
ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... ahahahanson
>
> --
Androcles
Yeah... I was in Van Nuys for the installation of a robotic welding
arm on GM's Camaro and Firebird - the same car with slightly
different head and tail lights. It was quite amusing seeing both
come down the assembly line, a sensor detected the hole where
the tail light would go so that the next operation knew what flavour
to add.
A company I consulted for made carbon paper (still in use today by
traffic wardens and cops who write speeding tickets). In the ever
demanding competitive market of office supplies it was a good idea
to produce a paper that could be re-used 20 times and still leave
a legible copy and an even better idea if it could be re-used 30 times.
So they made one. The EPA closed the plant down. Well, the demand
for carbon paper has vanished with the advent of the computer, so
no point in crying over it.
However, that wasn't what I was consulted for. The same company
made ribbon for printers to churn out individualised utility bills with
all your phone calls listed - so there is still a big market for printers
and ribbon cartridges, they are not all using bubble jet.
What I did was upgrade the productivity of the inking of white ribbon
and monitored the percentage of ink. Increasing productivity was easy,
instead of inking just one spool at a time I reconfigured the inking
machines to ink four spools in parallel and then I doubled the speed of
the machines (they needed new motors to drive them), producing an eight-
fold increase. But here comes the crunch -- the inked ribbon was shipped
to Mexico for assembly into the cartridges, the company simply could
not afford American labour and remain competitive.
--
Androcles
hanson
have fun with... "Now comes the bizarre part..."
>
"Androcles" <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message
:-))))
>
> --
> Why did Einstein say
> the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
> the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
> the "time" each way is the same?
> http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
>
ahahaha... you have that post-script on for a week now
and alluded to it for years. Yet AFAICS not a single
one of the Einstein Dingleberries gave the obvious,
glaring answer that stares into the face of these
fanatics. .... All that one of the EDs came up with and
then was parroted by a few others, was them saying:
"But Einstein didn't say that"... ahaha... AHAHAHA...
>
Why are these self-aggrandizing EDs not capable
of facing the fact that Einstein **HAD** to say that
because.... Now, here is the chance for you EDs to
finish that sentence and show that you really do
UNDERSTAND REL, for if not then you are nothing
more than Sunday school children, infantile BELIEVERS,
who are reciting and interpreting their bible.... ahahaha...
ahahaha.... ahahanson
Androcles
I know for a fact that an undergrad will be faced with a computer
marked multiple choice question, pencil in the A,B,C...G answer
and the question will be biased toward the cuckoo malformations
which are learned by rote. If he wants to pass he has to give the
wrong answer and there is no enquiry, no appeal, no discussion
as to why it is wrong. It's the professors that have blind faith, all
they are doing is passing it on, they never change it. Carlip and Baez
are typical acolytes of the relativity religion, both are doctors
of divinity and the average Joe looks up to them. Pentcho has the
right idea when he refers to "Divine Albert" and rel will never quite
go away because there is a class of cranks that are otherwise intelligent
enough to make money from it, even if it is only being paid to teach
it. And what else can they do anyway?
--
Androcles
bz
> The
> color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)
The Mn 5+ radical is extremely unstable. Explosively so in the presence of
organic materials.
Our qual text warned us to never mix con sulfuric with Potasium permaginate
for that reason.
Someone decided to take an old, empty, steam bath outside the chemistry
building, put some KMnO4 and poured con sulfuric acid on it.
It just sat there.
Until he picked up an old asphalt roofing shingle that was also laying in
the yard and started stirring and tapping the mixture.
The corner of the tile disappeared with a flash and the highest pitched
'bang' I have ever heard.
His ROTC uniform developed a bunch of purple ringed holes in it.
[no it wasn't me, I was watching through the glass on the door. I only had
a couple of small holes in my coat.]
In other words, that guy [and YOU] were lucky the whole plant didn't blow
up.
[quote http://dwb.unl.edu/chemistry/smallscale/SS023c.html]
teachers should know that mixtures of potassium permanganate and
concentrated sulfuric acid lead to the formation of explosive manganese
oxide, Mn2O7.
[unquote]
Of course, your Mn +5 may have been a bit more stable than the Mn+5 in
Mn2O7, but then you may have just been lucky.
--
bz
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.
bz...@ch100-5.chem.lsu.edu remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
hanson
news:Xns9AABC2817CE2AWQ...@130.39.198.139...
>
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in news:LuI_j.2582$4c.1314@trnddc08:
The color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)
>
Like I said Mn7+ at pH 14 was reduced by Gluconate to soluble
Mn5+ .... as long as there is excess of Mn7+ still present.
Once all Mn7+ is gone the Mn5+ will disproportionate and drop
out as insoluble MnO2... in aqueous solutions below 10% tot.
>
bz" <bz+sp wrote:
The Mn 5+ radical is extremely unstable. Explosively so in the
presence of organic materials.
>
ahahaha... nitpick for students: Mn5+ is not a radical but an
ion.... However phenomenogically a "fast" reduction is quite
possible but only true as long as the conditions for it to occur
are present. But that is not the case in water solutions at conc.
of less then 5-10%, as in this case. Industry generally does
not sell explosive mixtures to their customers... if the product
is not intended to be an explosive.... ahahahaha....
>
"bz" <bz+sp wrote:
> Our qual text warned us to never mix con sulfuric with
> Potasium permaginate for that reason.
> Someone decided to take an old, empty, steam bath outside
> the chemistry building, put some KMnO4 and poured con
> sulfuric acid on it.
> It just sat there.
> Until he picked up an old asphalt roofing shingle that was
> also laying in the yard and started stirring and tapping the mixture.
> The corner of the tile disappeared with a flash and the highest
> pitched > 'bang' I have ever heard.
> His ROTC uniform developed a bunch of purple ringed holes in it.
> [no it wasn't me, I was watching through the glass on the door.
> I only had a couple of small holes in my coat.]
> teachers should know that mixtures of potassium permanganate and
> concentrated sulfuric acid lead to the formation of explosive manganese
> oxide, Mn2O7.
>
ahahahaha... Well, that serves you right... Chemistry students at
that a level, like yours, ought to know better & YOU should have
prevented the dude from doing that... ahahahaha... Shame on
you. To boot, you didn't read my story right... there was nothing
so concentrated there that any explosion could have resulted.
Industry doesn't work that way... ahahaha... Ah, the youth!
>
"bz" <bz+sp wrote:
> In other words, that guy [and YOU] were lucky the whole plant
> didn't blow up.
> the Mn+5 in Mn2O7, but then you may have just been lucky.
> not-know is an infinite set.
>
... ahahahaha... Thanks for your concerns, sweet pea. But
consider, your XP was probably the best education that
your macho dude ever got. Not so you. You are still loud
mouthing from behind a glass door... ahahaha.. But thanks
for the laughs and by ALL means change your 2 last lines for
describing yourself... If you don't, your attitude will guarantee
you that you will be condemned to titrate at the lab bench
for the rest of your life.
Thanks for your cute story though... ahahaha... ahahanson