salts of sorrow
Owen
I heard that they ("it") were used to remove rust stains in the olden
days, so I guess they ("it") might be an oxalate.
A student asked me why, if acids are named "acids" (hydrochloric acid,
ethanoic acid etc), why aren't bases named "bases"? I had to admit I
didn't know, but "ammonia base", "morphine base" sound as weird as
"radio rays" and "X waves".
Thanks
John Owen
Victoria BC
Owen
Anybody know what these (or is it "this"?) are (or is it "is"?)
I have a feeling that it is an oxalate, but I'm guessing
ijl
is neither a mineral acid nor a carboxylic acid. So nomenclature often
makes no sense. :)
I would point out to the student, though, that the "nucleotide BASES" are
all organic bases due to their sp3 hybrid nitrogens.
----------
donald haarmann
[Merck Index]
I would nominate oxalic acid. For you are going to be sorrowful in you ingest
it. Hence, "dumb-cane" for the oxalic acid containg plant - Diffenbachia.
--
donald j haarmann - eminence grise
Owen <m-o...@home.com> wrote in message news:38F49DDE...@home.com...
Modem
M->I heard that they ("it") were used to remove rust stains in the olden
M->days, so I guess they ("it") might be an oxalate.
They might be Salts of Sorrol which is a 5% solution of potassium acid
oxalate.
M->A student asked me why, if acids are named "acids" (hydrochloric acid,
M->ethanoic acid etc), why aren't bases named "bases"? I had to admit I
M->didn't know, but "ammonia base", "morphine base" sound as weird as
M->"radio rays" and "X waves".
M->Thanks
M->John Owen
M->Victoria BC
Barry Hunt
Owen wrote:
> Does anyone know what "salts of sorrow" are or is?
>
> I heard that they ("it") were used to remove rust stains in the olden
> days, so I guess they ("it") might be an oxalate.
>
> A student asked me why, if acids are named "acids" (hydrochloric acid,
> ethanoic acid etc), why aren't bases named "bases"? I had to admit I
> didn't know, but "ammonia base", "morphine base" sound as weird as
> "radio rays" and "X waves".
>
> Thanks
> John Owen
> Victoria BC
Morphine is already a base and doesn't need the qualifier, except we tend
to use it to make clear distinction from the salt. I use "lignocaine base"
to make it totally clear that I don't mean the hydrochloride. Yes I know
that this is theoretically unnecessary but I have run into problems
occasionally.
As for acids, first, "hydrochloric" used alone doesn't mean anything.
Secondly, there are many "acids" which don't have the word acid in the
name - eg phenol (used to be called carbolic acid, of course!!)
Hope this helps
Barry Hunt
Dr. Henry
They are potassium acid oxalate or
potassium tetraoxalate. No idea about
the "Sorrel" part.
--
Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational
purposes only and should not be used as advice. No
warranty or expression of professionalism is implied.
***************
Owen <m-o...@home.com> wrote in message news:38F76781...@home.com...
Anybody know what these (or is it "this"?) are (or is it "is"?)
I have a feeling that it is an oxalate, but I'm guessing
Thanks
John Owen
Victoria BC
donald haarmann
> I have a listing for "Salt of Sorrel".
> They are potassium acid oxalate or
> potassium tetraoxalate. No idea about
> the "Sorrel" part.
>
-------------
"Sorrel" refers to plants of either the genus Oxalidaceae e.g., Oxalis pes-caprae L
"Bermuda buttercup", or Rumex e.g., Rheum rhaponticum L "Ruhubarb"; Rumex
crispus L "Dock sorrel". Both plants contain soluble oxalates.
FATAL OXALIC ACID POISONING FROM SORREL SOUP
The Lancet 23/30 December, 1989
SIR,-- Accidental poisoning by plants containing oxalic add is uncommon [1,2] and we
describe a fatal case of poisoning due to ingestion of sorrel (Rumx crispus). Oxalic acid
has a corrosive action upon the digestive tract. Once it has been absorbed it reacts with
calcium in plasma and insoluble calcium oxalate tends to precipitate in organs such as
kidneys, blood vessels, heart, lungs, and liver; this reaction may also produce
hypocalcaernia.
A 53-year-old man, with a 4-year history of insulin-dependent diabetes, who was a
heavy smoker and drinker, was admitted to hospital because of vomiting, diarrhoea,
and progressive impairment of consciousness soon after the ingestion of a vegetable
soup containing about 500 g of sorrel. He had metabolic acidosis, hypocalcaernia (total
calcium 6-3, ionised calcium 2-3 mg/dl); extensive Ever cell necrosis, as evidenced by
enzyme studies and prothrombin ratio (8%); and raised blood urea (18-5 mmol/l) and
serum creatinine (534 umol/l) levels.
The patient went into deep coma with respiratory depression (requiring mechanic
ventilation), kidney and liver failure, and severe metabolic acidosis and hypocalcaemia.
Disturbances in cardiac rhythm progressed to ventricular fibrillation, and this was the
cause of death, 2 hours after the admission, while the patient was on dialysis. A screen
for common hepatotoxins was negative.
Necropsy revealed hepatic centrilobular necrosis, swelling and retraction of glomeruli,
and crystals of calcium oxalate in renal cortex vessels and capillaries of liver, lung and
heart. These findings were consistent with the clinical picture.
In the few reported cases of oxalic acid intoxication, tubular oxalosis has been the
main feature, and hepatic involvement has not been as severe as it was in the present
case. The mean lethal dose of oxalic acid for adults has been estimated as 15-30 g
although amounts lower than 5 g can be fatal. [3] This man ingested 6-8 g oxalic acid.
Plants containing oxalic acid are used in cooking and for medicine purposes, and
awareness of their hazardous potential is important.
MERÈ FARRÈ
JUDITH XiRGU
ANTONIO SALGADO
RAMÓN PERACAULA
Hospital General de Valle Hebrat,
00035 Barcelona, Spain
RAMÓN REIG
PERE SANZ
Hospital Clininco Provinical,
Barcelona
Trivia -
"Salt of Wisdom" Alembroth.
[Alembroth] "A word of the Alchemists for the double chloride of mercury and ammonium
2(NH4Cl.HgCl) + H2O, formlerly beleived to be a universal solvent." OED.
--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------------
Do you believe that the sciences would ever had
arisen and became great if there had not beforehand
been magicians, alchemists, astrologers and WiZards,
who thirsted and hungered after abscondite and
forbidden powers?
Friedrich Nietzsche
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, IV, 1886
David B. Hedrick
Sorrel is a common weed, and oxalic acid is often found in plants. So
"salt of sorrel" is probably an extract of that plant.
> I have a listing for "Salt of Sorrel".
> They are potassium acid oxalate or
> potassium tetraoxalate. No idea about
> the "Sorrel" part.
>
> --
>
> Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
>
> The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational
> purposes only and should not be used as advice. No
> warranty or expression of professionalism is implied.
>
> ***************
>
> Owen <m-o...@home.com> wrote in message news:38F76781...@home.com...
>
> Anybody know what these (or is it "this"?) are (or is it "is"?)
> I have a feeling that it is an oxalate, but I'm guessing
>
> Thanks
>
> John Owen
> Victoria BC
--
~DBH
Technical writing, literature search, and data analysis at the interface
of chemistry and biology.
David B. Hedrick
P.O. Box 16082
Knoxville, TN 37996
Bill Nelson
: Does anyone know what "salts of sorrow" are or is?
Maybe "sour salt"? That would be citric acid.
--
Bill Nelson (bi...@peak.org)
Udo Muellich
do you think, salt of sorrel is possible?
Salt of sorrel is potassium tetroxalate (C4H3KO8)
or potassium binoxalate (C2HKO4).
Regards,
Udo Muellich
Owen schrieb:
> Does anyone know what "salts of sorrow" are or is?
>
> I heard that they ("it") were used to remove rust stains in the olden
> days, so I guess they ("it") might be an oxalate.
>
> A student asked me why, if acids are named "acids" (hydrochloric acid,
> ethanoic acid etc), why aren't bases named "bases"? I had to admit I
> didn't know, but "ammonia base", "morphine base" sound as weird as
> "radio rays" and "X waves".
>
Dr. Henry
--
Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational
purposes only and should not be used as advice. No
warranty or expression of professionalism is implied.
***************
David B. Hedrick <davidb...@icx.net> wrote in message
news:38F8FC...@icx.net...
Dr. Henry wrote:
Sorrel is a common weed, and oxalic acid is often found in plants. So
"salt of sorrel" is probably an extract of that plant.
> I have a listing for "Salt of Sorrel".
> They are potassium acid oxalate or
> potassium tetraoxalate. No idea about
> the "Sorrel" part.
>
> --
>
> Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
>
> The opinions of Dr. Boyter are provided for informational
> purposes only and should not be used as advice. No
> warranty or expression of professionalism is implied.
>
> ***************
>
> Owen <m-o...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38F76781...@home.com...
>
> Anybody know what these (or is it "this"?) are (or is it "is"?)
> I have a feeling that it is an oxalate, but I'm guessing
>
> Thanks
>
> John Owen
> Victoria BC
--
donald haarmann
Dr. Henry <hbo...@cstone.net> wrote in message news:95598209...@helium.cstone.net...
> But what is the origin of "sorrel".
>
> --
>
> Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
-----------------
Borrowed from the OED.
sorrel (______), n.1 Bot. Forms: 4, 67 sorell, 56 sorel, 67 sorrell (6 sowrell), 6 sorrel.
[a. OF. surele (12th cent.), sorele, surelle (mod.F. surelle), f. OF. sur adj., an adoption of the Germanic sur sour a.]
1. a. One or other of certain small perennial plants belonging to the genus Rumex, characterized by a sour taste,
and to some extent cultivated for culinary purposes; esp. the common wild species, R. acetosa.
Earlier botanical names are Acedula (also Acidula), Acetosa, and Oxalis.
c1440 Promp. Parv. 465/1 Sorel, herbe, surella.
--
donald j haarmann - colophon
donald haarmann
Dr. Henry <hbo...@cstone.net> wrote in message news:95598209...@helium.cstone.net...
> But what is the origin of "sorrel".
>
> --
>
> Dr. Henry Boyter, Jr. Ph.D. Chemist
------------
The OED again:
6. salt of sorrel, binoxalate of potash.
1800 tr. Lagrange's Chem. II. 209 Oxalic Acidulum, the Salt of Sorrel of the Shops.
1839 Ure Dict. Arts 192 Two drams of sal-ammoniac, and half a dram of salt of sorrel.
1887 Bentley Man. Bot. (ed. 5) 654 A potassium salt of oxalic acid, commonly termed salt of sorrel.
Owen
Owen wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what "salts of sorrow" are or is?
> I heard that they ("it") were used to remove rust stains in the olden
> days, so I guess they ("it") might be an oxalate.
> Thanks
> John Owen
Thank you to everyone who replied - I was asked by a scotswoman, and I
guess her ear heard "sorrow" rather than "sorrel". But, doesn't
"salt of sorrow" sound wonderful?
John
> Victoria BC