Zinc Electroplating?
Andrew de Halas
I was wondering what kind of solutions are needed for zinc
electroplating?
Also,
Is it possible to zinc plate with a strong acid such as hydrochloric
or sulfuric as the solution, without reaction to the zinc before the
actual plating occurs.
Such as having the metal to be plated and the zinc to be reduced in a
tank of dilute or concentrated acid and a current applied to force the
zinc over to the metal to be plated.
I have heard of similar reactions concerning gold and nitric acid, but
is this different by the fact that the acid will react with the zinc
with or without electrical current.
Finally,
Is there anything special needed to have large scale electroforming of
plates 250+ thousandths thick. These are not detail plates, but more
electroforming large flat surfaces.
Thanks!
-Andrew
beavith
wrote:
>Hi,
>I was wondering what kind of solutions are needed for zinc
>electroplating?
Google is your friend.
>
>Also,
>Is it possible to zinc plate with a strong acid such as hydrochloric
>or sulfuric as the solution, without reaction to the zinc before the
>actual plating occurs.
yes and no. acid-chloride zinc electroplating solutions are run with
ZnCl2-KCl at a pH of about 5.5
acid sulfate baths are pretty similar, but not very common.
zinc cyanide runs about pH 12
>Such as having the metal to be plated and the zinc to be reduced in a
>tank of dilute or concentrated acid and a current applied to force the
>zinc over to the metal to be plated.
were it that simple!
>I have heard of similar reactions concerning gold and nitric acid, but
>is this different by the fact that the acid will react with the zinc
>with or without electrical current.
Au is much less reactive than Zn. it allows for some different
chemistry.
>
>Finally,
>Is there anything special needed to have large scale electroforming of
>plates 250+ thousandths thick. These are not detail plates, but more
>electroforming large flat surfaces.
>
while it doesn't really mean much, i've never heard of electroforming
with Zn. from my experience, electroforming with Ni is a more
standard operation. why do you need to use Zn?
>Thanks!
>-Andrew
with all the environmental regs, electroplating isn't really for the
hobbyist anymore. good luck!
hanson
news:332dfd8a.04032...@posting.google.com...
> I was wondering what kind of solutions are needed for zinc
> electroplating?
> or sulfuric as the solution, without reaction to the zinc before the
> actual plating occurs.
> tank of dilute or concentrated acid and a current applied to force the
> zinc over to the metal to be plated.
> is this different by the fact that the acid will react with the zinc
> with or without electrical current.
> plates 250+ thousandths thick. These are not detail plates, but more
> electroforming large flat surfaces.
"beavith" <beav...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:k6p06090iv665dc30...@4ax.com...
> with all the environmental regs, electroplating isn't really
> for the hobbyist anymore. good luck!
>
[hanson]
Beaver is right! But fuck the environmentalism. Do your thing!
It's not like there's a plating hobbyist in every second house.
Besides most people today do shit into their pants when they
hear "acid" or "heavy metal".
Google == Zinc electro plating solutions == 42,600 hits
There's all the DETAILED info in there you need.
From Suppliers to Disposal.
Beaver is right on = Google Zinc electroforming solutions 890 hits =
That is commercially not a viable operation. Even thick coatings
of Zn are not done thru electrolysis but rather applied via molten
Zinc metal called "galvanizing" or "Hot dipping"
If you really can't find what you need, then post exactly what
you want to do and I'll tell you how to do it.
Enjoy chemistry -------- But fuck enviros! By all means!
Take care, dude,
Repeating Rifle
han...@quick.net wrote on 3/23/04 12:54 PM:
> Enjoy chemistry -------- But fuck enviros! By all means!
> Take care, dude,
I say fuck anti-enviros!
Boy! I sure can demonstrate my incitefulness with the best of them.
Bill
hanson
news:BC85E91E.11209%Salm...@sbcglobal.net...
Let's hear YOUR green gong and song!
Begin with
***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
"It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
believe is true ... You are what the media define you to be.
Greenpeace became a myth, and a myth-generating machine."
-- Paul Watson, co/founder of Greenpeace and Sea Shepard
"If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it
up on the spot ... for the mass-media today ... the truth is irrelevant."
-- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy.
"A lot of environmental messages are simply not accurate. But
that's the way we sell messages in this society. We use hype."
-- Dr. Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, Univ.of Washington
"We have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic
statements, and make little mention of any doubts we may have.
Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being
effective and being honest."
- Stephen Schneider (Stanford professor who first sought fame as
a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
"A global climate treaty must be implemented even if there is no
scientific evidence to back the greenhouse effect."
-- Richard Benedict, an employee for the State Department working
on assignment for the Conservation Foundation
"We already have too much economic growth in the United States.
Economic growth in rich countries like ours is the disease, not the cure."
-- Paul Elrich, Stanford U biologist and Advisor to Vice President Gore
"We in the Green movement, aspire to a cultural model in which
the killing of a forest will be considered more contemptible and more
criminal than the sale of 6-year-old children to Asian brothels."
-- Carl Amery, Green Party of West Germany
"I got the impression that instead of going out to shoot birds,
I should go out and shoot the kids who shoot birds."
-- Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd
-----***** end: Quotes from environmental leaders *****-----
***** These quotes do make you realize that *****
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
People are so disgusted with green turdism, so much that
== "Environment" was not mentioned at all in Pres. Bush's ==
== 2004 State of the Union, and NEITHER was any mention ==
== of it in the rebuttals by the DEMOCRATS. & now, RALPH ==
== NADER, 2000 Green Party Pres. Candidate has distanced ==
== himself from the green shits and runs as an Independent!==
All enviros, acticists, enablers, consultants or regulators may
bark in their green misanthropic and anti-patriotic hatred until
they are biliverdin-green all over, but
**** These enviro-creationist quotes will not go away. ****
The enviros should revere these quotes for they are their gospel.
Don't deny them. Be proud of them. They are, after all, the
Green equivalent of the Red manifesto or Hitler's "Mein Kampf".
The enviros green ilk's strenuous and pathetic efforts to burry them,
is reminiscent of the Nazis who claimed not to have known how evil
their leaders and their systems were and copping the same plea
of "just following orders".
Environmentalism is the same ideology. Environmentalism is just
the revived green version of social pathologies like BROWN with red
and green or RED with brown and green tints.
Face the facts green turds, nowadays the enviros do have problems,
a) because the people caught onto their game of green turdism, that
= Environmentalism is just a despicable, evil money (green) game, =
= without any redeeming value, nor any intent to save anything.This =
= scam has come to an end. Now, all the green shits are whining... =
Why should anyone be surprised? The green movement was always
and exclusively a machination and a cover to get grants, permit charges
& user fees for the green shits, be they consultants, activists or regulators.
...to boot, the green shits are recognized to be so bad and evil that
== One of the saddest legacy that the green turds produced ==
== is the pervasive trickle down effect aka OUTSOURCING ==
b) because it was doomed from the outset by top "executive" advice
from its Führers as shown above in "Quotes from environmental leaders".
Environmental turdism runs across and far, far beyond political and
ideological party lines. The right wing, conservatives, have an equal
if not bigger number of green turds amongst them, then the lefties do.
Turdism/Turdry begins when principally noble ideas are exploited for
personal gain. The perversion of the noble goals begins as soon as
the old adage to riches is introduced and applied:
********* "Find a need and fill it" *********
Modern, current turdism is so vile because the bastards, the green
shits expanded it successfully into
********* "Create a fear and feed off it". *********
Remember,
you can strike fear into some people for all the time.
you can even strike fear into all people for some time.
But you cannot strike fear into all people for all the time.
-------- Your green shit philosophy has failed --------
The green jig is up! Do you green turds know now why?
ahahahahaha........ahahahahanson
Andrew de Halas
Thank you for your input.
I am not sure about the other posts, but this one seems to be very
helpful.
I know there is a lot of links on google, but keep in mind that the
40,000+ hits are not always relevant to my exact problem.
Anyways, thanks to google though, I was able to find a variety of
different zinc plating chemicals and solutions. Most of which I
already have.
I am going to try the acid chloride plating, although I do not see the
need for KCL in the solution. Is this to solve the problem with
release of chlorine gas?
If so than I would consider it nescessary to the solution.
As for the gold solutions, yes I know Au is less reactive, but it
works on the funny fact that it hapopens to be electropositive, and it
won't react with acid whatsoever. Once one overcomes the
electropositivity of the gold, it can be forced into the solution to
be plated on the material needed.
I have done several silver platings like this, but found silver
nitrate to be much more forgiving.
As for electroforming, this is not ment to be a recreation of
something, or an actual electroformed part. This is electroforming
plates of zinc, for electrodes
and other things needing zinc with high surface area. I want to
electroform the plates because I can have a much better control of the
surface area than die or lost foam casting.
My plan is to have a zinc sulfate plating solution with some type of
non reactive metal zinc can be plated on, such as aluminum or
stainless steel.
The anode will consist of a large plate of stainless or aluminum in
which many hundreds of bumps will be machined. This will be held to
the cathode closely, and when plating will cause the cathode to form a
non even plate, with the thickest points being across from the bumps
on the anode. Since the current is the strongest on these bumps, the
plate will be thicker across from it.
As for enviromental regulations, I do have the equipment and chemicals
to safely nutralize the plating solutions and make them safe for
disposal.
Thank you.
-Andrew
hanson
news:332dfd8a.04032...@posting.google.com...
>Is there anything special needed to have large scale electroforming
>of plates 250+ thousandths thick. These are not detail plates,
>but more electroforming large flat surfaces.
>
> better control of the surface area than die or lost foam casting.
> My plan is
> which many hundreds of bumps will be machined. This will be held to
> the cathode closely, and when plating will cause the cathode to form a
> non even plate, with the thickest points being across from the bumps
> on the anode. Since the current is the strongest on these bumps, the
> plate will be thicker across from it.
> -Andrew
>
[hanson]
If you have dimensionally large plates but numerically not very
many of them then from what you describe you ought to check
into "BRUSH PLATING" and use partially chelated Zincates elytes.
(ZnO + NaOH + Gluconate or EDTA etc). Fast thickness build up.
The method is labor intensive but it allows you to control the
thickness of the Zn deposit at any spot at any time.
This alkaline brush plating will also prevent redissolution of Zn
back into the elyte, will not cause rusting and cleans the part.
Also, using by Zincates you will ameliorate almost all enviro shit
since when diluted the Zn(OH)2 will settle out and can be reused.
Enjoy Chemistry..........but fuck enviros!
ahahahaha.........ahahahahanson
PS:
Enviros will come by, demand and extort from you Permit fees
Operating fees, User fees, Analysis fees, Hot Spot fees, Waste
storage fees, Waste handling fees, Waste treatment fees,
waste disposal fees, waste transportation fees, Airpollution
emission fees, Pollution control equipment operating fees, etc....
...long BEFORE you will have made a single fucking cent from
the $investment YOU have risked and the labor YOU have put
in. You will have to pay all this for the full year that's coming.
NOT AFTER you have made money. If you do otherwise they
fine the fuck out of you....and if you don't pay :::: Jail!
The enviro shits will contribute absolutely nothing, except
stealing your money and telling you how to do you job, yet
having no fucking idea what you are doing. They will offer
you addresses from enviro consultants to fill out their forms
for a fat consulting fee, of course, and they will recommend
suppliers for pollution/control abatment equipment from whom
they get kickbacks........
......... give all this very many 2nd thoughts, dude,
It may be far cheaper for you to **OUTSOURCE** the work
.... courtesy.......the enviro-turds!
beavith
sheesh. lighten up!
beavith
oh man....
i plated because i was set up to do it and i was set up to pick up the
mess i made. its an important part and cost of the business.
can you imagine the average joe sixpack messing around with rectifiers
and conc H2SO4? HNO3? NaCN? KCN? NiSO4? Cd(CN)2? the water usage?
oils? solvents? dyes? salts? CrO4?
despite your over the top hate for progress, the only people plating
these days are the ones that know how. thankfully.
dumping solvents and cyanides in your back yard is not an acceptable
option, enviroturds or not. i have to drink the water my next door
neighbor fouls? i don't think so!
i remember as a kid fishing directly next to the sludge beds of USM
Corp on the Housatonic River in Shelton CT. these things had
interesting collections of salts that i could use directly in my
chemistry set. the bizarre thing was that these sludge beds were
located directly on the flood plain of the river. every spring those
beds would get washed out by the river. they had Cad, Nickel, Zinc,
Chrome, Copper etc....
this was in the early 1970's. you can safely assume that the only
fish i caught were saltwater bluefish running up the river after the
bunker. that's it. now there is an actual ecology.
thanks. i wouldn't want to go back to that.
everyone is entitled to their opinion. i'm happy that yours is not
the majority one.
>
beavith
wrote:
its the actual electrolyte. without it, you wouldn't be able to
conduct enough electricity to drive the Zn out of solution.
>Is this to solve the problem with
>release of chlorine gas?
>If so than I would consider it nescessary to the solution.
its best if you stay with the recipes. without running Hull cell
trials, i can pretty much guarantee a crumbly grainy deposit, unless
you have organic additives.
>
>As for the gold solutions, yes I know Au is less reactive, but it
>works on the funny fact that it hapopens to be electropositive, and it
>won't react with acid whatsoever. Once one overcomes the
>electropositivity of the gold, it can be forced into the solution to
>be plated on the material needed.
actually, gold is typically plated from an acid cyanide solution at
about pH 4.5. Au(CN)2 is quite stable in somewhat acidic solutions.
check out those recipes, too.
first time i read about it, i didn't believe it either.
>
>I have done several silver platings like this, but found silver
>nitrate to be much more forgiving.
silver plating is industrially done in an alkaline cyanide solution,
very similar to copper cyanide plating.
>
>As for electroforming, this is not ment to be a recreation of
>something, or an actual electroformed part. This is electroforming
>plates of zinc, for electrodes
>and other things needing zinc with high surface area. I want to
>electroform the plates because I can have a much better control of the
>surface area than die or lost foam casting.
>
>My plan is to have a zinc sulfate plating solution with some type of
>non reactive metal zinc can be plated on, such as aluminum or
>stainless steel.
>The anode will consist of a large plate of stainless or aluminum in
>which many hundreds of bumps will be machined. This will be held to
>the cathode closely, and when plating will cause the cathode to form a
>non even plate, with the thickest points being across from the bumps
>on the anode. Since the current is the strongest on these bumps, the
>plate will be thicker across from it.
this is true as a general rule, but the difference in thickness may
not be very large, especially if you are going to use closely
conforming anodes.
instead of a (turn the following character 90 deg to the right)
c
you may only get
(
big thickness differences depend on current density not just on
current geometry.
>
>As for enviromental regulations, I do have the equipment and chemicals
>to safely nutralize the plating solutions and make them safe for
>disposal.
>
>Thank you.
>-Andrew
no problem. i had to mention it because you don't seem extremely
experienced. we sometimes see folks that want to electroplate baby
shoes and stuff like that that are dangerous and not recommended...
good luck. and sorry about the hot heads.
hanson
> oh man....
> i plated because i was set up to do it and i was set up
> to pick up the mess i made. its an important part
> and cost of the business.
>
Should I share your guilty conscience over your confession?
So, if you were indeed a fucking dunker who made a mess
yet cleaned it up, then what is the point of your whining?
Normal business practices did not and do not make messes.
If making a mess was an important part of cost of you doing
business then I do understand why you said "platED" in the
past tense... You are an idiot or a green turd......ahahaha.....
> can you imagine the average joe sixpack messing
> around with rectifiers and conc H2SO4? HNO3? NaCN?
> KCN? NiSO4? Cd(CN)2? the water usage?
> oils? solvents? dyes? salts? CrO4?
>
Only paranoid green turds of the second kind do think like that.
"Average joe sixpacks" do not know CrO4 from their asshole. YOU
apparently don't neither, even if you meant CrO3. Nor would
"average joe sixpacks" have access to CrO4. Besides, I previously
said that "== most people today do shit into their pants when they
hear "acid" or "heavy metal". == So, it is only your own mind,
that is infected with green shit, where such imaginary "average
joe sixpacks" do mess around with "rectifiers & conc H2SO4......"
You begin to sound like that "EPA Mike" guy who posted here during
work time (stealing tax payers' money) promoting his green shit!
Or if you are/were an actual dunker, then you come across that
you are afraid of competition coming from some guy like the OP,
...ahahahahaha....
> despite your over the top hate for progress,
YOUR progress has also caused so much green OH burden that
your customers do now *outsource* your work overseas, which
also might have caused you to say "i platED", in past tense.....
So, did you lose your business, or your job or are you lying and
fantasying here like a green turd of the first kind?
> the only people plating these days
> are the ones that know how. thankfully.
If you are actually a plater, which I doubt, then you are a pitiful
loser who doesn't want to see competition.... and that's what you
are "thankful" for!.... You want to keep others out of the business
and call it progress?!... Sheesh.... That's restriction of trade, dude!...
..... .but more likely you are a regulator protecting your own
inspector job under the guise of being a plater.
Or a brainwashed student. If so get a job before you sing green
songs.
> dumping solvents and cyanides in your back yard is not an
> acceptable option, enviroturds or not. i have to drink the
> water my next door neighbor fouls? i don't think so!
>
I don't think so neither, because you are ejaculating pure
and standard green shit here. And you are not a plater
neither, but a typical green turd. There are no plating shops
with back yards where they dump/ed solvents and cyanides
into their neighbors back yards and foul their neighbors water.
They would have been sued the fuck out of, since your
green fantasy was NEVER "an acceptable option, enviroturds
or not". Tort laws took care of such things long before green
shits discovered that they could feed of such travesties!
Too boot, individuals can't buy cyanides in the first place.
> i remember as a kid fishing directly next to the sludge beds of USM
> Corp on the Housatonic River in Shelton CT. these things had
> interesting collections of salts that i could use directly in my
> chemistry set. the bizarre thing was that these sludge beds were
> located directly on the flood plain of the river. every spring those
> beds would get washed out by the river. they had Cad, Nickel, Zinc,
> Chrome, Copper etc....
> this was in the early 1970's. you can safely assume that the only
> fish i caught were saltwater bluefish running up the river after the
> bunker. that's it. now there is an actual ecology.
> thanks. i wouldn't want to go back to that.
>
You are an old fuck?
So why should I then continue to pay for your sins?
What you describe was in the 70's and that is gone for a
quarter century now. It was worse in the 50 and the 60's.
Then, slowly business & the workers in that hi-go-go military-
industrial complex age got unhappy with that mode of ops. &
after some real disasters occurred, law suits & news coverage
began and industry WORKED to clean up its act! -- Then the
stage was set for lawyers to smell money in this game -- and
green tudism was born: Nixon the great loser, who gave us the
first lost war in history -- gave us another, bigger loser -- EPA!,
whose green turds keep looting the treasury still year after year.
Why should I keep on paying for green shit, after things have
been cleaned up? Pay attention instead to new, real priorities
from an ongoing war to Fatties, to rip-offs/payoffs causing our
seniors to suffer needlessly..... yet you green shits worry about
your neighbor dumping a quart of oil in his backyard because he
can't afford to go to the gas station to have it taken car off .....
because his job got == out sourced == because EPA's green
ilk drove the business off.....
Don't' you know that before this green idiocy began, before
green turd ineffectively ran and sucked the life out of the once
mighty US economy, the manufacturing sector and public utilities,
health- and safety departments had their act together. For instance
Sanitation districts asked dunkers till ca. the mid 70's routinely to
empty their acid tanks out, collectively, at the same time, for it
helped them to acid flush the sewer pipes.
But then came the green shits collecting $$$ and said
"Environmentalism is sanitation driven to pathological extremes"
and voila, there's the precipitation of a $billion disaster...see:
news:3XURb.478$uM2...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net
>
> everyone is entitled to their opinion.
>
That is the only factual thing you said in your post...
and my opinion is that you are a quintessential green turd,
so badly affected by enviro shit that it fills your brain
and runs out of your mouth. There's no help for the
likes of yours. Green is an almost incurable social disease.
> i'm happy that yours is not the majority one.
>
Listen beaver, you just laid your final green turd here.
I am with the majority opinion, because if you had any
brains you'd know that people are so disgusted with green
turdism, so much that
== "Environment" was not mentioned at all in Pres. Bush's ==
== 2004 State of the Union, and NEITHER was any mention ==
== of it in the rebuttals by the DEMOCRATS. & now, RALPH ==
== NADER, 2000 Green Party Pres. Candidate has distanced ==
== himself from the green shits and runs as an Independent!==
Here are the role models you ran after, believe in and who
were the reason why you've become such a lying, deceiving
green asshole too:
john
your an ass. if your methods in chemistry and materials are so hot why are
people like you producing such shit?
moose
hanson
news:Pine.LNX.4.58.0...@libretto.cool.org...
that his name was moose, whose green screws are lose
and he sang like an enviro turd bird:
>
> your an ass. if your methods in chemistry and materials are
> so hot why are people like you producing such shit?
> moose
>
John Musielewicz, you just had a Muscle twitch!
If you wonder "why people are producing such shit"
then all you have to do is to look into a mirror. You'll
see him right in there: John Musielewicz, the green shit,
twitching in front of an advertisement that says:
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
Moose, fasten your screws. Less green shit will leak out of you.
ahahaha....ahahahaha.....ahahahanson.
Moose, your screws are loose and you sing like an enviro turd bird.
beavith
>"beavith" <beav...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:8nr3605blaktsmuh4...@4ax.com...
>> "hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote:
>> >Let's hear YOUR green gong and song!
he he.... its good to get the ol' rant juices flowing....
>
>> oh man....
>> i plated because i was set up to do it and i was set up
>> to pick up the mess i made. its an important part
>> and cost of the business.
>>
>
>Should I share your guilty conscience over your confession?
>So, if you were indeed a fucking dunker who made a mess
>yet cleaned it up, then what is the point of your whining?
>
>Normal business practices did not and do not make messes.
wanna bet? ever hear of costs external to business? if its cheaper
to dump the tank in the river, rather than treat it/haul it off for
treatment, which businessman wouldn't just let it rip?
>If making a mess was an important part of cost of you doing
>business then I do understand why you said "platED" in the
>past tense... You are an idiot or a green turd......ahahaha.....
>
?
just so we have things clear, plating, like mining is a very messy
process.
>> can you imagine the average joe sixpack messing
>> around with rectifiers and conc H2SO4? HNO3? NaCN?
>> KCN? NiSO4? Cd(CN)2? the water usage?
>> oils? solvents? dyes? salts? CrO4?
>>
>
>Only paranoid green turds of the second kind do think like that.
>"Average joe sixpacks" do not know CrO4 from their asshole.
the peoplein southern California that lived in Erin Brockovitch's
neighborhood learned all about it....
> YOU
>apparently don't neither, even if you meant CrO3. Nor would
>"average joe sixpacks" have access to CrO4. Besides, I previously
>said that "== most people today do shit into their pants when they
>hear "acid" or "heavy metal". == So, it is only your own mind,
>that is infected with green shit, where such imaginary "average
>joe sixpacks" do mess around with "rectifiers & conc H2SO4......"
>
>You begin to sound like that "EPA Mike" guy who posted here during
>work time (stealing tax payers' money) promoting his green shit!
apparently before my time
>Or if you are/were an actual dunker, then you come across that
>you are afraid of competition coming from some guy like the OP,
>...ahahahahaha....
>
>> despite your over the top hate for progress,
>
>YOUR progress has also caused so much green OH burden that
>your customers do now *outsource* your work overseas,
most plating is local. its an add on to manufacturing cost. if you
can't manufacture something profitably, here, that's when companies
outsource. whether it overseas, or to a differnt local contract
amanger, its the choice that brings the greatest cash return to the
sotckholders...
jeez. ever take a business course?
>which
>also might have caused you to say "i platED", in past tense.....
>So, did you lose your business, or your job or are you lying and
>fantasying here like a green turd of the first kind?
nope. got my degree in chemistry in 1981 in Indiana. in the summers
during college, i worked at 3 (count 'em 3) plating shops in my home
town as a "dunker" (brass nickel and chrome mainly).
after college, if recall '81, it was a tough time to get jobs.
pharmaceuticals/organic chemistry was my forte, but i can do anything.
wound up as a plating chemist in a job shop. after about 6 weeks on
the job, i had the previous chemists work (she took all day) down to
about 3 hours. the rest of my day, i plated Zn and Cd and some Ni.
i headed up the 3rd shift for a while.
of course thats when the Clean Water Act got some teeth when they
fired up RCRA. anyway. did that for 3 years.
found a different job with somewhat better pay. same sorts of plating
except that it was all done on a big udylite.
bailed from In in 1985 to come home to the family, after a short stint
doing fire assay for a mining company, i worked as a plating engineer
for a year until i got dropped into the plating supervisor position
when the old foreman dropped dead from a heart attack.
i ran the operation
from there, i went back into engineering, clawing my way up to plant
engineer. in that time, the company was pushing out 600 tons per year
of hazardous waste. i got it down to under 100, and most of that was
going to recycling. our water consumption was running about 120,000
gallons per day and i got it down to about 15,000.
green turd? i don't think so.
in that period, cost of water and cost of hauling went up by a factor
of ten. our cost declined by about 10% overall.
this isn't foolishness. its good management.
anyway, CT passed an income tax, assholes, and my old man's company
offered me far better money, so i left plating to work technical sales
in another field. i still follow the field and look forward to
contributing POSITIVELY to others in the field.
i would say my depth of experience trumps your invective.
>
>> the only people plating these days
>> are the ones that know how. thankfully.
>
>If you are actually a plater, which I doubt, then you are a pitiful
>loser who doesn't want to see competition.... and that's what you
>are "thankful" for!.... You want to keep others out of the business
>and call it progress?!... Sheesh.... That's restriction of trade, dude!...
not everyone can be a banker can they? not everyone can be a baker
can they?
restriction of trade? my ass.
>..... .but more likely you are a regulator protecting your own
>inspector job under the guise of being a plater.
>Or a brainwashed student. If so get a job before you sing green
>songs.
wrong and wrong.
the company i was at was, even tho i'd been holding their hand going
thru re upping our NPDES permit (yes, we discharged to a river), they
insisted on doing things that were going to make me civilly AND
criminally liable.
ever seen the movie Trading Places with Dan Ackroyd and Eddie Murphy?
at the end where the 2 SNL guys hav ethe Frozen Conc Orange Juice
about cornered? there's a point where all the traders in the pit
figure out that there's something going on and there's a split second
lull before there's a stampede to sell?
that's the point where i bailed. i figured that i was 6 months.,
maybe a year away from getting pinched for stuff that management
encouraged.
not me baby.
>
>> dumping solvents and cyanides in your back yard is not an
>> acceptable option, enviroturds or not. i have to drink the
>> water my next door neighbor fouls? i don't think so!
>>
>
>I don't think so neither, because you are ejaculating pure
>and standard green shit here.
says who?
>And you are not a plater
>neither, but a typical green turd. There are no plating shops
>with back yards where they dump/ed solvents and cyanides
>into their neighbors back yards and foul their neighbors water.
hmmm. so the superfund site right behind our current shop doesn't
exist?
>They would have been sued the fuck out of, since your
>green fantasy was NEVER "an acceptable option, enviroturds
>or not". Tort laws took care of such things long
Clean Water Act 1970 and tort reform that came with RCRA in 1976. you
could certainly sue. the problem was you weren't gauranteed any real
victory. of course, once the Superfund act passed the lawyers jumped
in with both feet.
>before green
>shits discovered that they could feed of such travesties!
>Too boot, individuals can't buy cyanides in the first place.
as if that would stop a motivated seeker. we locked up our cyanides,
but if one drum was missing, especially back in the early 1990's,
would anyone notice? we went thru that stuff by the ton.
>
>
>> i remember as a kid fishing directly next to the sludge beds of USM
>> Corp on the Housatonic River in Shelton CT. these things had
>> interesting collections of salts that i could use directly in my
>> chemistry set. the bizarre thing was that these sludge beds were
>> located directly on the flood plain of the river. every spring those
>> beds would get washed out by the river. they had Cad, Nickel, Zinc,
>> Chrome, Copper etc....
>> this was in the early 1970's. you can safely assume that the only
>> fish i caught were saltwater bluefish running up the river after the
>> bunker. that's it. now there is an actual ecology.
>> thanks. i wouldn't want to go back to that.
>>
>
>You are an old fuck?
i suppose 44 DOES make me an old fuck.
>So why should I then continue to pay for your sins?
>What you describe was in the 70's
this kind of stuff was still happening well into the 1980's. only
until lawyers and bad-ass regulators got into it, did the number of
platers plunge.
>and that is gone for a
>quarter century now. It was worse in the 50 and the 60's.
>Then, slowly business & the workers in that hi-go-go military-
>industrial complex age got unhappy with that mode of ops. &
>after some real disasters occurred, law suits & news coverage
>began and industry WORKED to clean up its act!
what America did you live in ? until the whip and chair of regulation
where wielded, it was never going to change, no matter how many
Cuyahoga Rivers caught fire.
if you like important parallels, check out what China is going thru
now. they are politically reaching the fed up stage. regulation will
be soon following.
> -- Then the
>stage was set for lawyers to smell money in this game -- and
>green tudism was born: Nixon the great loser, who gave us the
>first lost war in history -- gave us another, bigger loser -- EPA!,
>whose green turds keep looting the treasury still year after year.
if you are saying "libertarianism is good," i can't disagree. as far
as looting the budget, i can name several other cabinet level
departments that are getting their fair share too.
>
>Why should I keep on paying for green shit, after things have
>been cleaned up?
the bar of environmental quality has to stay high or we'll be swimming
in our own shit again.
> Pay attention instead to new, real priorities
>from an ongoing war to Fatties, to rip-offs/payoffs causing our
>seniors to suffer needlessly.....
i don't know how old you are. but i'm pretty sure i'm never going to
see a dime when i retire. and its because the oldsters won't "give
up" any of their "hard earned" benefits.
why do you think that the retirement age was set at 65 way back in the
1930's? it wasn't because 65 was a nice round number. it was because
insurance tables showed thst half the oldsters were dead at that
point. as long as 2 people are paying in for one persons retirement,
this could work. nowadays, average lifespan is out to, what, 75? if
you don't have folks working to 75, or at least the current expected
lifespan, social security is nothing more than a vast Gov't Ponzi
scheme, where the first ones make out and the later ones get screwed.
and this doesn't take into account the use of SS to pay survivor
benefits to minor children or other entitlements.
of course, you can bitch about the EPA, because you don't like them,
but the Social Security administration is your friend?
hypocrisy is the first word that comes to mind.
>yet you green shits worry about
>your neighbor dumping a quart of oil in his backyard because he
>can't afford to go to the gas station to have it taken car off .....
>because his job got == out sourced == because EPA's green
>ilk drove the business off.....
there's about 6 non sequiturs in this one statement.
study history, economics and business adminstration. then you might
have a real clue.
>
>Don't' you know that before this green idiocy began, before
>green turd ineffectively ran and sucked the life out of the once
>mighty US economy,
despite your whining, the US economy powers the entire world's
economy...
>the manufacturing sector and public utilities,
>health- and safety departments had their act together. For instance
>Sanitation districts asked dunkers till ca. the mid 70's routinely to
>empty their acid tanks out, collectively, at the same time, for it
>helped them to acid flush the sewer pipes.
sure and it smoked out all the rats with H2S and cyanides. of course
that kind of dump with current concrete pipes dissolves them in no
time. not a good thing for infrastructure...
>But then came the green shits collecting $$$ and said
>"Environmentalism is sanitation driven to pathological extremes"
>and voila, there's the precipitation of a $billion disaster...see:
>news:3XURb.478$uM2...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net
>
>>
>> everyone is entitled to their opinion.
>>
>
>That is the only factual thing you said in your post...
>and my opinion is that you are a quintessential green turd,
>so badly affected by enviro shit that it fills your brain
>and runs out of your mouth. There's no help for the
>likes of yours. Green is an almost incurable social disease.
and rants make it better?
>
>
>> i'm happy that yours is not the majority one.
>>
>
>Listen beaver, you just laid your final green turd here.
>I am with the majority opinion, because if you had any
>brains you'd know that people are so disgusted with green
>turdism, so much that
oh. the old straw man argument. just for beginners, that's not a
logical statement.
interesting, but in the end, unhelpful. there's wing nuts on both
sides of any issue.
you seem to be arguing for less regulation and more pollution?
>
Coalbunny
granite...
>
-snip-
Beavith, I guess this may sound dumb, but two things I'd love to learn how to do
is electroplating and electrowinning. Isn't there some fashion that these can
be done in and NOT be environmentally damaging? I would expect there is. Isn't
there?
Carl
--
"Volunteer emergency personnel are like toilet paper- no one really understands how valuable they are until they're really needed." -- Coalbunny
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
beavith
>-snip-
>Beavith, I guess this may sound dumb, but two things I'd love to learn how to do
>is electroplating and electrowinning. Isn't there some fashion that these can
>be done in and NOT be environmentally damaging? I would expect there is. Isn't
>there?
>Carl
i expected another diatribe from hanson. i was all worked into a
lather getting ready to spoon feed him some more reality and you ask
about electoplating versus electrowinning? he he. so much for being
full of myself!
electroplating is basically creating a solution that, when
electrolyzed, deposits a specific metal or alloy where and how you
want it (bright nickel, hard chrome, zinc etc). there are certain
recipes to produce exactly, or close to it, what you want.
electrowinning is a gathering process for metals. it requires a salt
concentration great enough to have the current carrying capacity to
selectively grab the metal(s) of interest. for instance electroless
hypophospite nickel is notoriously hard to treat with conventional
treatment methods due to its complexing agents (raise the pH and
settle out the metal as the hydroxide) for some time, one avenue was
a tank to electrowin out the residual substantial nickel content.
i say this like i know what i'm talking about, but this was stuff that
i've only read about. since then, i've also read that the addition of
sodium borohydride reduces the Ni directly out and is quite a bit
simpler.
the purification of copper is an electrowinning process where the cast
raw copper anodes are electrolyzed onto a pure copper cathode. this
purification step is the final process in the mining of Cu. the
residue of the raw copper is collected and further treated for gold,
silver, rhodium and platinum which occur naturally with copper but at
extremely low levels.
if you look in the Wall Street Journal for the price of Cu, you'll see
its in "cathodes"
i'm not sure i answered your question, but googling this might give
you a wider view.
beavith
your watching for the black UN helicopters aren't you?
back to the hills of Idaho with you!
hanson
> he he.... its good to get the ol' rant juices flowing....
> worked into a lather getting ready to spoon feed
> full of myself!
> >
[snipped but can be retrieved, by clickg "news" above]
[hanson]
......ahahaha...alright, at least you have good humor, beaver.
So, you made a roughly 200 line long confession, cv & all,
ending it with *** "that's the point where i bailed." ***
Beaver, in that one sentence you said it all: You are an ENABLER
of green turdism. When it came to the point where YOU could
have made a difference YOU BAILED, and then you kept whining
about how smart you were, and then you complained about
the superfund side behind your office and praised the brokobitch
and you even got the LA disaster wrong but you kept on whining
and whining that we will be '' swimming in our own shit again"
[hanson]
The green shits have done a number on you, beaver, and
scared the fuck outa you, worked you so thoroughly that you
have begun to show the Stockholm syndrome, a kidnap
victims' survival strategy, helping his captors, by promoting
their views. .....ahahaha...
It is also clear from your post that you, like most people
in the "regulated community", you have never been inside
the "regulating community", where all that green shit gets
hatched!.... I've been there, seen it, beaver.....Its' bad!.
[beaver]
> you seem to be arguing for less regulation & more pollution?
[hanson]
Wow, only someone who has dirt on his own stick, beaver,
does rhetorically pit a suggestion forth like you did here.
Notice, beaver, NOWHERE have I advocated in any of my
rants to be an enviro pig and a dumper. It rail against the
ineffectiveness, the inertness, the machination and the
corruption in the enviro world, the realm of the green turds
and green shits, i.e. the ones that still have not cleaned up that
old tox/hazmat dump behind your current work place. These
green shits extorted $billions via their permit charges, user
fees and superfund surcharges to do the job. But they didn't.
So, where did all these $$$billions go to? -- All that cash did
come from raises, bonuses, HC & RT contributions which YOU
DID NOT GET.......instead it went into the pockets of the green
shits.....whom you still defend.....What's the matter with you?
news:8x6_b.4955$aT1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net
I repeat, the green turds are fucking YOU, the little guy, you who
had very little say on envrio matters in the company. And the smaller
the company was the worse they fuck you thru the cost structure
of their corrupted regularly fees . Are you too stupid to see that?.
[beaver]
> got my degree in chemistry in 1981 in Indiana.
[hanson]
So, beaver, you are an educated man, in upper management
now, and you still can't see that
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
What's the matter with you, beaver?
[beaver]
> (1) wound up as a plating chemist in a job shop.
> i headed up the 3rd shift for a while. did that for 3 years.
> (2) found a different job with somewhat better pay. on a big udylite.
> (3) in 1985 i got dropped into the plating supervisor position
> (4) i went my way up to plant engineer. the company was pushing
> out 600 tons per year of hazardous waste. i got it down to under 100
> our water consumption was ~ 120,000 g/d. i got it down to ~ 15,000
> (yes, we discharged to a river), & they insisted on doing things
> that were going to make me civilly AND criminally liable. that's
> the point where i bailed. i figured that i was maybe a year away
> from getting pinched for stuff that management encouraged.
> (5) i left plating to work technical sales in my old man's company
> in another field.
[hanson]
So, "they made you civilly AND criminally liable .. you bailed".???
hmm, doesn't sound right. Let's hear YOUR ENTIRE sad song!
Drop the other shoe, dude ------- your (4) above is smoke!
What really happened that you "bailed" and ran home to daddy,
and now from far away have such a big and loud green mouth?
Sounds very much like what your icons do advocate here below:
[beaver]
> interesting, but in the end, unhelpful.
[hanson]
You brush these quotes aside, like the holocaust deniers do.
Your judgment of "unhelpful" tells a lot about your inclinations.
These edicts above, by the green leaders, were the philopshical
foundations that caused all the perversions of a basic noble
idea and turned it into green shit.
[beaver]
> there's wing nuts on both sides of any issue.
[hanson]
True, but you are winging and nutting on the wrong side, which is
why you have those justified worries "i'm pretty sure i'm never
going to see a dime when i retire". --- I don't worry about that
because I take care of myself and my own. And so should you.
Now, go and fuck enviros........that's a good place to start at.
ahahahaha........ahahahahanson
PS: By "fuck enviros".....ahahaha.... I mean, do NOT
take their side, do not advocate their views. Green
fuckers are phony, evil and DO NOT DO ANY WORK!
YOU have to do the work, you sacrifice, AND YOU PAY!
They laugh.........at YOU!
hanson
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message
news:RWD8c.234$Dv2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
[beaver]
> lemme guess...
> your watching for the black UN helicopters aren't you?
> back to the hills of Idaho with you!
>
[hanson]
Wwow....Your Sales must have been disappointing this
month that you come out swinging like that......ahahahaha...
AHAHhahaha..... see, beaver, how you are extruding your
own green shit now and laying your own green turds.....
and already becoming an intolerant, irrational enviro fanatic,
just like your enviro role models & green icons told you to do:
***** These quotes do make you realize that *****
= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
= regulators. Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
People are so disgusted with green turdism, so much that
== "Environment" was not mentioned at all in Pres. Bush's ==
== 2004 State of the Union, and NEITHER was any mention ==
== of it in the rebuttals by the DEMOCRATS. & now, RALPH ==
== NADER, 2000 Green Party Pres. Candidate has distanced ==
== himself from the green shits and runs as an Independent!==
Evgenij Barsukov
--
__________________________________________________
*science&fiction*free programs*fine art*phylosophy:
http://sudy_zhenja.tripod.com
----------remove hate_spam to answer--------------
Evgenij Barsukov
> ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
Take the hand of the cadaver from the Send button for God's sake!
Regards,
Evgenij
hanson
news:40648064...@ti.com...
> Take the hand of the cadaver from the Send button for God's sake!
> Regards,
> Evgenij
>
***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
"It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
beavith
<e-barsoukov...@ti.com> wrote:
> hanson wrote:
> > ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> > ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> > ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
> > ***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
>
>Take the hand of the cadaver from the Send button for God's sake!
>
>Regards,
>Evgenij
cadaver? hahahaha!
dobre vecher!
beavith
>"Evgenij Barsukov" <e-barsoukov...@ti.com> wrote in message
>news:40648064...@ti.com...
>> Take the hand of the cadaver from the Send button for God's sake!
>> Regards,
>> Evgenij
>>
>Where does it refer in here to cadaver? What cadaver?
wake up and smell the coffee.
>
i'm off on vacation til next monday. i'll deal with you when i get
back.
unless i can find a high speed hook up for my laptop.
then. you. are. mine.
hanson
Beaver, the green turd in rage. Fuming!
ahahahahaha......AHAHAHAHAHA......
ahahahahaha......ahahahhanson
hanson
Beavith aka dobre vecher, tell me where it refers to cadaver?
Here it is again for your benefit:
***** Quotes from environmental leaders. start: *****
"It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
Coalbunny
granite...
>
>Beavith aka dobre vecher, tell me where it refers to cadaver?
>Here it is again for your benefit:
>
agree with you on the environmental stuff, and have seen the BS in person a few
times.
FWIW "dobre vecher" is Russian for "Good Evening".
hanson
news:4066e3d9...@news.vcn.com...
> "hanson" <han...@quick.net> carved in granite...
> >Beavith aka dobre vecher, tell me where it refers to cadaver?
news:Ans9c.4444$lt2....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
[Carl]
> Hanson, I'm really not involved in this other than
> a rather amused observer.
[hanson]
This is the first expression of your considerable wisdom.
For all too many posters NG cyber space becomes/is their
personal reality and thus this 24/7 mad cyber party lends
itself to a very unique way of entertainment, amusement like
you say. Or like the stuffy English would say: Good show, Carl.
>
[Carl]
> I agree with you on the environmental stuff, and have seen
> the BS in person a few times.
>
>
[hanson]
This is the second expression of your considerable wisdom.
Environmental stuff is exclusively a $$$$ game, big $$$$
game. Yet, for all too many posters in these enviro NG the
dollar-environment connection is something totally alien,
a situation which demonstrates their mental capacity to be 3
points above plant life or their abject phoniness or both.
>
[Carl]
> FWIW "dobre vecher" is Russian for "Good Evening".
> Carl
>
[hanson]
This is the third expression of your considerable wisdom.
Maybe poster Beavith aka dobre vecher, now carved in granite,
gave himself away as a pinko-green wannabe-brother of
Vendicar Decarian aka Scott Nudds aka VD Scotty ......
.....AHAHAhhaaha.......ahahahaha.... a new VD Beavith.....
Take care Carl, thanks and keep having fun!
hanson says: "Let'em sing!.....All of'em....It's a beautiful choir!"
ahahahaha.......ahahahanson
Andrew de Halas
I would just like to say that I, myself, am a totally neutral party to
this entire argument. As I am the very first poster, of something
totally of subject.
(Keep in mind this is about electroplating, not enviromentalism.)
Now I have a couple of questions.
First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
Second, is there anyway to plate platinum, or am I just better of
going to a plating shop?
Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless) Anyways, I
have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
places. I believe the current was the strongest. It also appeared the
hydrogen generation seemed to pick up quite rapidly when the current
was applied. (The zinc was deteriorating whether the current was on or
not, but it was forming a zinc chloride solution, so I did not worry.)
I also noticed if the voltage of the cell were to increase beyond 3
volts, I would start to get chlorine gas generation. I feel that the
voltage is kept low enough, the chlorine will go back into solution,
do attack more zinc metal.
The final downside of this is when the current is taken off, and the
cathodic protection isn't existent, the bath will immeadiatly eat away
at the plate, forming a grainy plate. I proceeded to take the plate
out of solution after the current was disconnected and added to a bath
of sodium carbonate and water. This neutralized any free acid, and I
was able to polish the plate afterwards without any other follow up
bath.
Oh, finally,
As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
case.
Thanks
-Andrew
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message news:<H9C9c.3875$Dv2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Andrew de Halas
Thanks
-Andrew
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message news:<H9C9c.3875$Dv2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Andrew de Halas
Thanks
-Andrew
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message news:<H9C9c.3875$Dv2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
hanson
news:332dfd8a.0403...@posting.google.com...
> Hum,
> I would just like to say that I, myself, am a totally neutral party to
> this entire argument.
> reccomend finding some evidence that will support your case.
So, you want answers and then you strongly dictate
conditions.........AHAHAHAHahahhahahaha........
You can get more then a laugh if you send first a money order
of $ 2500.- as a consulting fee setup and agree to pay $ 375.-
per hr on top. But you'll get a freebie from Beawith, I'm sure.
> (Keep in mind this is about electroplating, not enviromentalism.)
Keep in mind that if you remind me about environmentalism
I may begin to give you lectures about it big time & for free.
beavith
wrote:
>Hum,
>I would just like to say that I, myself, am a totally neutral party to
>this entire argument. As I am the very first poster, of something
>totally of subject.
>(Keep in mind this is about electroplating, not enviromentalism.)
like i said. sorry about the hot heads.
>
>Now I have a couple of questions.
>First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
>hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
no. you could use graphite anodes if you like, and add ZnCl2 over the
side.
>
>Second, is there anyway to plate platinum, or am I just better of
>going to a plating shop?
you can do anything if you have the money. Nb and Ta anodes are
commercially obtainable. would never use them in a Zn bath though..
>
>Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
>anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
>NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
>Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
no ZnCl2? hmmm.
KCl will give you much better "throw," but you've been amazingly
successful with NaCl. hats off.
>
>The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
>wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
>that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless)
tough to plate on directly, anyway. good to know my experience isn't
too far off the mark. if you want to get it to stick, you'll have to
first plate the strip in a Wood's Nickel bath (NiCl2, HCl) rinse
quickly and go right into the Zn bath. i would qualify this further
step under "advanced". =)
>Anyways, I
>have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
>that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
>places. I believe the current was the strongest.
that's right. the black coating is normal.
>It also appeared the
>hydrogen generation seemed to pick up quite rapidly when the current
>was applied.
the H2 gas evolution overpotential isn't that far from Zn's
>(The zinc was deteriorating whether the current was on or
>not, but it was forming a zinc chloride solution, so I did not worry.)
>I also noticed if the voltage of the cell were to increase beyond 3
>volts, I would start to get chlorine gas generation.
KCl would reduce this.
>I feel that the
>voltage is kept low enough, the chlorine will go back into solution,
>do attack more zinc metal.
Cl2 is produced when you exceed the power needed to electroplate the
Zn metal. your H2 production is going up at the same time.
Cl2 gas has nothing to do with deposition. when you add power in
excess of Faraday's Equation for one reaction, it has to go someplace.
>The final downside of this is when the current is taken off, and the
>cathodic protection isn't existent,
right
> the bath will immeadiatly eat away
>at the plate, forming a grainy plate.
a little gelatin added to the bath (<1%) will help, as a grain
refiner. there are other brighteners that may help. for instance, a
drop or two of cooking vanilla
> I proceeded to take the plate
>out of solution after the current was disconnected and added to a bath
>of sodium carbonate and water. This neutralized any free acid, and I
>was able to polish the plate afterwards without any other follow up
>bath.
now what? you want to electroform something and you wind up with a
competent Zn foil. will this meet your requirement?
>
>Oh, finally,
>As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
>worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
>and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
>I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
>case.
>
>Thanks
>-Andrew
am i one or the other? i lived and worked thru the transition that we
went thru. there was a lot of fallout durnig the contraction of the
US plating industry. Hanson sounds like one of the platers or a
plating shop owner that couldn't keep up his end in a changing
industry.
i, for one, am grateful for that change.
beavith
>"beavith" <beav...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:nrg860561epu2veuh...@4ax.com...
>"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message
>news:RWD8c.234$Dv2...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>[beaver]
>> lemme guess...
>> your watching for the black UN helicopters aren't you?
>> back to the hills of Idaho with you!
>>
>
>[hanson]
>Wwow....Your Sales must have been disappointing this
>month that you come out swinging like that.
swinging? you sound at lot like like a right wingnut. whatsamatter?
hits close to home?
>.....ahahahaha...
>AHAHhahaha..... see, beaver, how you are extruding your
>own green shit now and laying your own green turds.....
>and already becoming an intolerant, irrational enviro fanatic,
>just like your enviro role models & green icons told you to do:
nope. truly, i couldn't care less about those quotes. just like your
commentary. lots of yelling , but not much content.
if i can make a business case for reducing operating expense by
investing capital dollars, in cleaning up my company's operating
procedures, why wouldn't i? that's what i did. one of the projects
had a 2 year payback. with the ability to get a tax break on that
money and the quick payback, i'm sending money right to the bottom
line almost immediately.
green turds, huh?
to paraphrase the Beatles. yeah, yeah yeah.....
>
> ***** These quotes do make you realize that *****
>
>= The green movement was always & only a sick machination=
>= & a cover to get $$$ grants, permit charges & user fees to =
>= feed green shits, be they politicians, consultants, activists or=
>= regulators.
this statement doesn't make sense. maybe you mean to sadd "all at the
expense of the working man" even then, you'd be wrong.
i don't know if you've been paying attention, but growth in the US
economy is fueled by an explosive growth in efficiency. this term is
productivity. we do more with less.
>Environmentalism is just a despicable evil green=
>= $$$$$$ game without any redeeming value, nor any intent =
>= to save anything. This 40 year old scam is now threatened =
>= which is why all those leeching green turds are whining =
i'm not whining. it appears that you are.
>
>People are so disgusted with green turdism, so much that
>
>== "Environment" was not mentioned at all in Pres. Bush's ==
>== 2004 State of the Union, and NEITHER was any mention ==
>== of it in the rebuttals by the DEMOCRATS. & now, RALPH ==
>== NADER, 2000 Green Party Pres. Candidate has distanced ==
>== himself from the green shits and runs as an Independent!==
>
>
>All enviros, acticists, enablers, consultants or regulators may
>bark in their green misanthropic and anti-patriotic hatred until
>they are biliverdin-green all over, but
>
>**** These enviro-creationist quotes will not go away. ****
>
>The enviros should revere these quotes for they are their gospel.
>Don't deny them. Be proud of them. They are, after all, the
>
>Green equivalent of the Red manifesto or Hitler's "Mein Kampf".
kooks are kooks whether they're reds or brown shirts, or eco
terrorists, or well meaning ignoramus'
>
>The enviros green ilk's strenuous and pathetic efforts to burry them,
>is reminiscent of the Nazis who claimed not to have known how evil
>their leaders and their systems were and copping the same plea
>of "just following orders".
>Environmentalism is the same ideology. Environmentalism is just
>the revived green version of social pathologies like BROWN with red
>and green or RED with brown and green tints.
????
>
>Face the facts green turds, nowadays the enviros do have problems,
>a) because the people caught onto their game of green turdism, that
>
>= Environmentalism is just a despicable, evil money (green) game, =
>= without any redeeming value, nor any intent to save anything.This =
>= scam has come to an end. Now, all the green shits are whining... =
>
>Why should anyone be surprised? The green movement was always
>and exclusively a machination and a cover to get grants, permit charges
>& user fees for the green shits, be they consultants, activists or regulators.
>
>...to boot, the green shits are recognized to be so bad and evil that
>
>== One of the saddest legacy that the green turds produced ==
>== is the pervasive trickle down effect aka OUTSOURCING ==
you don't have a clue, do you?
it REALLY is time that you take a couple business courses....
efficiency that sends cash to the bottom line drives any decision.
outsourcing is one option out of many.
>
>b) because it was doomed from the outset by top "executive" advice
>from its Führers as shown above in "Quotes from environmental leaders".
>
>Environmental turdism runs across and far, far beyond political and
>ideological party lines. The right wing, conservatives, have an equal
>if not bigger number of green turds amongst them, then the lefties do.
>Turdism/Turdry begins when principally noble ideas are exploited for
>personal gain. The perversion of the noble goals begins as soon as
>the old adage to riches is introduced and applied:
>********* "Find a need and fill it" *********
>Modern, current turdism is so vile because the bastards, the green
>shits expanded it successfully into
>********* "Create a fear and feed off it". *********
>
>Remember,
>you can strike fear into some people for all the time.
>you can even strike fear into all people for some time.
>But you cannot strike fear into all people for all the time.
>-------- Your green shit philosophy has failed --------
>
>The green jig is up! Do you green turds know now why?
>ahahahahaha........ahahahahanson
do you realize that you sound quite hysterical?
>
hanson
your post below. I hope you got your rocks off after having
carried my cyber load on you shoulders for over a week.
.....ahahahahaha........ahahahaha...... Take care, beaver.
Sleep, well dude and have a great, prosperous month.
ahahahaha......ahahanson
"beavith" <beav...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:rfk170tdcgs9bbcnl...@4ax.com...
Andrew de Halas
> >Now I have a couple of questions.
> >First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
> >hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
>
> no. you could use graphite anodes if you like, and add ZnCl2 over the
> side.
First, i have no idea what you mean add zncl2 over the side, and sorry
for the mistake, I meant formation of oxygen. This is very common when
using a platinum anode in electrolysis cells.
> >Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
> >anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
> >NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
> >Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
>
> no ZnCl2? hmmm.
Seriously no zncl2. It did work. Not well, as I heard with zinc
sulfate or zinc chloride. I just wanted to find the cheapest way to
plate, and a drop or two of hcl is a lot cheaper than a couple of
grams of zinc chloride.
>
> KCl will give you much better "throw," but you've been amazingly
> successful with NaCl. hats off.
What is "throw"?
> >The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
> >wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
> >that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless)
>
> tough to plate on directly, anyway. good to know my experience isn't
> too far off the mark. if you want to get it to stick, you'll have to
> first plate the strip in a Wood's Nickel bath (NiCl2, HCl) rinse
> quickly and go right into the Zn bath. i would qualify this further
> step under "advanced". =)
Yes, I fiqured that. I have heard of people using copper plates
beforehand, and
I personally have had great luck with copper plating.
This peeling I expierence makes electroforming much easier it turns
out. I was planning on using lead or tin as my cathode, but I have had
problems with electronegativity, and the plating bath actually
becoming a battery. Also these two metals in the presence of each
other have seemed to have caused some extensive currosion.
> >Anyways, I
> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
>
> that's right. the black coating is normal.
Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
>
> >It also appeared the
> >hydrogen generation seemed to pick up quite rapidly when the current
> >was applied.
>
> the H2 gas evolution overpotential isn't that far from Zn's
Yea... Well any explosive gas seems to merit some hazards in a plating
bath.
I would like for someway to deminish this.
>
> >(The zinc was deteriorating whether the current was on or
> >not, but it was forming a zinc chloride solution, so I did not worry.)
> >I also noticed if the voltage of the cell were to increase beyond 3
> >volts, I would start to get chlorine gas generation.
>
> KCl would reduce this.
KCL would reduce what? Formation of chlorine, or deterioration of
zinc?
>
> > the bath will immeadiatly eat away
> >at the plate, forming a grainy plate.
>
> a little gelatin added to the bath (<1%) will help, as a grain
> refiner. there are other brighteners that may help. for instance, a
> drop or two of cooking vanilla
No kidding. I should try this.
>
> > I proceeded to take the plate
> >out of solution after the current was disconnected and added to a bath
> >of sodium carbonate and water. This neutralized any free acid, and I
> >was able to polish the plate afterwards without any other follow up
> >bath.
>
> now what? you want to electroform something and you wind up with a
> competent Zn foil. will this meet your requirement?
This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
> >
> >Oh, finally,
> >As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
> >worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
> >and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
> >I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
> >case.
> >
> >Thanks
> >-Andrew
>
>
> am i one or the other? i lived and worked thru the transition that we
> went thru. there was a lot of fallout durnig the contraction of the
> US plating industry. Hanson sounds like one of the platers or a
> plating shop owner that couldn't keep up his end in a changing
> industry.
> i, for one, am grateful for that change.
Hey whatever. I probably wasn't even alive. As I said before, I am a
completely neutral party. I really don't have any strong feelings on
any side.
Thanks!
-Andrew
beavith
wrote:
>> >
>> >Now I have a couple of questions.
>> >First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
>> >hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
>>
>> no. you could use graphite anodes if you like, and add ZnCl2 over the
>> side.
>
>First, i have no idea what you mean add zncl2 over the side, and sorry
>for the mistake, I meant formation of oxygen. This is very common when
>using a platinum anode in electrolysis cells.
theoretically, you could use any anode material that wouldn't
contaminate the bath (Pt, graphite, Ta) as long as you made up the
metal lost with manual additions. in production plating, if the anode
area doesn't match the plated area reasonably closely, you wind up
depleting the tank's metal content. with regular analyses, you can
calculate the amount of metal salt to be added to maintain the recipe
concentration.
when i said "over the side" i meant the amount of metal salt, in this
case ZnCl2, that would be added "over the side" of the tank.
in an acid zinc tank, you generally generate H2 and O2 normally.
>
>> >Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
>> >anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
>> >NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
>> >Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
>>
>> no ZnCl2? hmmm.
>
>Seriously no zncl2. It did work. Not well, as I heard with zinc
>sulfate or zinc chloride. I just wanted to find the cheapest way to
>plate, and a drop or two of hcl is a lot cheaper than a couple of
>grams of zinc chloride.
good for you. its just that the purported mechanism for plating from
this bath is from the complex zinc salt, in your case Na2ZnCl4.
perhaps at very low concentration, you can avoid the grainy crumbly
deposit by keeping overall current density very low. i'm guessing...
>> KCl will give you much better "throw," but you've been amazingly
>> successful with NaCl. hats off.
>
>What is "throw"?
current density applied over the geometry of the part. acid chloride
zinc has excellent throw in that a usable plate can be "thrown" into
blind holes, where in a cyanide bath a usable plate may not form as
deeply.
>
>> >The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
>> >wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
>> >that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless)
>>
>> tough to plate on directly, anyway. good to know my experience isn't
>> too far off the mark. if you want to get it to stick, you'll have to
>> first plate the strip in a Wood's Nickel bath (NiCl2, HCl) rinse
>> quickly and go right into the Zn bath. i would qualify this further
>> step under "advanced". =)
>
>Yes, I fiqured that. I have heard of people using copper plates
>beforehand, and
>I personally have had great luck with copper plating.
>This peeling I expierence makes electroforming much easier it turns
>out. I was planning on using lead or tin as my cathode, but I have had
>problems with electronegativity, and the plating bath actually
>becoming a battery. Also these two metals in the presence of each
>other have seemed to have caused some extensive currosion.
galvanic, i'm sure.
>
>> >Anyways, I
>> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
>> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
>> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
>>
>> that's right. the black coating is normal.
>
>Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
but don't know.
>>
>> >It also appeared the
>> >hydrogen generation seemed to pick up quite rapidly when the current
>> >was applied.
>>
>> the H2 gas evolution overpotential isn't that far from Zn's
>
>Yea... Well any explosive gas seems to merit some hazards in a plating
>bath.
>I would like for someway to deminish this.
ventilation? you wouldn't be doing this in a small tightly confined
space would you?
seriously, the amount of H2 isn't that great, when you consider you
might be depositing fractions of a gram of metal, you''d be making
1/56 that amount of H2. this is very negligible.
>>
>> >(The zinc was deteriorating whether the current was on or
>> >not, but it was forming a zinc chloride solution, so I did not worry.)
>> >I also noticed if the voltage of the cell were to increase beyond 3
>> >volts, I would start to get chlorine gas generation.
>>
>> KCl would reduce this.
>
>KCL would reduce what? Formation of chlorine, or deterioration of
>zinc?
the solution would carry more voltage with KCl.
i should've said " KCl will reduce the Cl2 generation at that voltage"
>
>> > the bath will immeadiatly eat away
>> >at the plate, forming a grainy plate.
>>
>> a little gelatin added to the bath (<1%) will help, as a grain
>> refiner. there are other brighteners that may help. for instance, a
>> drop or two of cooking vanilla
>
>No kidding. I should try this.
the old timers used bizarre stuff like licorice, leather, tobacco
juice in some baths. i guess they would use whatever was handy. you
have to remember, most production plating baths were recipes put
together by trial and error before chemical quality control methods
were used. it was all art and very little science.
when i was a plater in 1979, i talked to the shop chemist about the
mechanism for chrome plating, assuming it was a straight redox
reaction. it isn't and the currently held mechanism wasn't proposed
until 1983. not bad for a bath that had been around since the mid
1800's. fortunately, the art has receded and the science has improved
>
>>
>> > I proceeded to take the plate
>> >out of solution after the current was disconnected and added to a bath
>> >of sodium carbonate and water. This neutralized any free acid, and I
>> >was able to polish the plate afterwards without any other follow up
>> >bath.
>>
>> now what? you want to electroform something and you wind up with a
>> competent Zn foil. will this meet your requirement?
>
>This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
>full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
>thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
>
>> >
>> >Oh, finally,
>> >As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
>> >worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
>> >and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
>> >I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
>> >case.
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >-Andrew
>>
>>
>> am i one or the other? i lived and worked thru the transition that we
>> went thru. there was a lot of fallout durnig the contraction of the
>> US plating industry. Hanson sounds like one of the platers or a
>> plating shop owner that couldn't keep up his end in a changing
>> industry.
>> i, for one, am grateful for that change.
>
>Hey whatever. I probably wasn't even alive. As I said before, I am a
>completely neutral party. I really don't have any strong feelings on
>any side.
>
>Thanks!
>-Andrew
no problemo!
Andrew de Halas
> On 5 Apr 2004 01:31:17 -0700, an...@lookingglass.com (Andrew de Halas)
> wrote:
>
> >> >
> >> >Now I have a couple of questions.
> >> >First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
> >> >hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
> >>
> >> no. you could use graphite anodes if you like, and add ZnCl2 over the
> >> side.
> >
> >First, i have no idea what you mean add zncl2 over the side, and sorry
> >for the mistake, I meant formation of oxygen. This is very common when
> >using a platinum anode in electrolysis cells.
>
>
> theoretically, you could use any anode material that wouldn't
> contaminate the bath (Pt, graphite, Ta) as long as you made up the
> metal lost with manual additions. in production plating, if the anode
> area doesn't match the plated area reasonably closely, you wind up
> depleting the tank's metal content. with regular analyses, you can
> calculate the amount of metal salt to be added to maintain the recipe
> concentration.
> when i said "over the side" i meant the amount of metal salt, in this
> case ZnCl2, that would be added "over the side" of the tank.
That's what I figured. I am looking at stable anodes, that perform
well under acidic conditions. (All electropositive metals I presume.)
I think I might use zinc sulfate. Do you have any expierence with
this?
>
>
>
> in an acid zinc tank, you generally generate H2 and O2 normally.
>
> >
> >> >Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
> >> >anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
> >> >NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
> >> >Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
> >>
> >> no ZnCl2? hmmm.
> >
> >Seriously no zncl2. It did work. Not well, as I heard with zinc
> >sulfate or zinc chloride. I just wanted to find the cheapest way to
> >plate, and a drop or two of hcl is a lot cheaper than a couple of
> >grams of zinc chloride.
>
> good for you. its just that the purported mechanism for plating from
> this bath is from the complex zinc salt, in your case Na2ZnCl4.
> perhaps at very low concentration, you can avoid the grainy crumbly
> deposit by keeping overall current density very low. i'm guessing...
I think I am not going to use this method of plating as of yet. It
seems to meet the requirements I need to plate extremly thick plates.
I would rather just electrolytically force the zinc into solution
rather than going about reacting or buying the chemicals. Would it be
possible to have a zinc sulfate bath, in which my anode is Zinc, so
when the plate is deposited on the cathode, the dissolved sulfate ions
would attack the anode. This would make up for using massive amounts
of zinc sulfate or whatever salt needed.
>
> >> KCl will give you much better "throw," but you've been amazingly
> >> successful with NaCl. hats off.
> >
> >What is "throw"?
>
> current density applied over the geometry of the part. acid chloride
> zinc has excellent throw in that a usable plate can be "thrown" into
> blind holes, where in a cyanide bath a usable plate may not form as
> deeply.
Makes sense. So throw is directly proportional to the density of the
solution, and how many ions are in contact with any given point at any
given time. I suppose, then that zncl2 is much more soluble than zinc
cyanide. (what was the polyatomic ion of cyanide? CH3? CN3?)
> >
> >> >The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
> >> >wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
> >> >that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless)
> >>
> >> tough to plate on directly, anyway. good to know my experience isn't
> >> too far off the mark. if you want to get it to stick, you'll have to
> >> first plate the strip in a Wood's Nickel bath (NiCl2, HCl) rinse
> >> quickly and go right into the Zn bath. i would qualify this further
> >> step under "advanced". =)
> >
> >Yes, I fiqured that. I have heard of people using copper plates
> >beforehand, and
> >I personally have had great luck with copper plating.
> >This peeling I expierence makes electroforming much easier it turns
> >out. I was planning on using lead or tin as my cathode, but I have had
> >problems with electronegativity, and the plating bath actually
> >becoming a battery. Also these two metals in the presence of each
> >other have seemed to have caused some extensive currosion.
>
>
> galvanic, i'm sure.
Obviously, considering I was generating a voltage with the two metals
in solution. What about copper plating as a pre plate to make sure the
zinc will stick on? Would that work. It seems to perform flawlessly
with nickel sulfate.
> >
> >> >Anyways, I
> >> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
> >> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
> >> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
> >>
> >> that's right. the black coating is normal.
> >
> >Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
>
> no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
> be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
> but don't know.
Could it also be in certain areas of the cathode, where the current is
the strongest, that the zinc cannot plate fast enough, and I am
forming some kind of an oxide of zinc. I get this quite often with
copper, in which if the voltage or the current is allowed to plate
fast enough, It will plate cupric oxide instead of elemental copper.
> >>
> >> >It also appeared the
> >> >hydrogen generation seemed to pick up quite rapidly when the current
> >> >was applied.
> >>
> >> the H2 gas evolution overpotential isn't that far from Zn's
> >
> >Yea... Well any explosive gas seems to merit some hazards in a plating
> >bath.
> >I would like for someway to deminish this.
>
> ventilation? you wouldn't be doing this in a small tightly confined
> space would you?
> seriously, the amount of H2 isn't that great, when you consider you
> might be depositing fractions of a gram of metal, you''d be making
> 1/56 that amount of H2. this is very negligible.
Makes sense. I do have some ventalation, but I suppose a tiny bit of
hydrogen is not that dangerous.
> >>
> >> >(The zinc was deteriorating whether the current was on or
> >> >not, but it was forming a zinc chloride solution, so I did not worry.)
> >> >I also noticed if the voltage of the cell were to increase beyond 3
> >> >volts, I would start to get chlorine gas generation.
> >>
> >> KCl would reduce this.
> >
> >KCL would reduce what? Formation of chlorine, or deterioration of
> >zinc?
>
> the solution would carry more voltage with KCl.
> i should've said " KCl will reduce the Cl2 generation at that voltage"
Would this be somehow related to potassium being higher on the
periodic table than sodium. Meaning the voltage needed to break apart
a potassium salt is more than needed to break apart a sodium salt?
> the old timers used bizarre stuff like licorice, leather, tobacco
> juice in some baths. i guess they would use whatever was handy. you
> have to remember, most production plating baths were recipes put
> together by trial and error before chemical quality control methods
> were used. it was all art and very little science.
> when i was a plater in 1979, i talked to the shop chemist about the
> mechanism for chrome plating, assuming it was a straight redox
> reaction. it isn't and the currently held mechanism wasn't proposed
> until 1983. not bad for a bath that had been around since the mid
> 1800's. fortunately, the art has receded and the science has improved
He he, I could see this being a interference to standardization of
plating tanks and baths. I suppose once you get a nice piece of
equipment going, you probably want to go with the reliable
standardized tank rather than one with a bunch of shit no one knows
about in it.
> >
> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
>
>
> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
produced.
I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
> >
> >> >
> >> >Oh, finally,
> >> >As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
> >> >worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
> >> >and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
> >> >I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
> >> >case.
> >> >
> >> >Thanks
> >> >-Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >> am i one or the other? i lived and worked thru the transition that we
> >> went thru. there was a lot of fallout durnig the contraction of the
> >> US plating industry. Hanson sounds like one of the platers or a
> >> plating shop owner that couldn't keep up his end in a changing
> >> industry.
> >> i, for one, am grateful for that change.
> >
> >Hey whatever. I probably wasn't even alive. As I said before, I am a
> >completely neutral party. I really don't have any strong feelings on
> >any side.
> >
> >Thanks!
> >-Andrew
>
> no problemo!
Thanks again for your input. You are probably the most helpful poster
on this entire zinc plating string.
-Andrew
beavith
wrote:
>beavith <beav...@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<2pr270h1odqvnko9l...@4ax.com>...
>> On 5 Apr 2004 01:31:17 -0700, an...@lookingglass.com (Andrew de Halas)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> >
>> >> >Now I have a couple of questions.
>> >> >First, would a platinum anode possibly force the formation of
>> >> >hydrogen, in zinc plating baths?
>> >>
>> >> no. you could use graphite anodes if you like, and add ZnCl2 over the
>> >> side.
>> >
>> >First, i have no idea what you mean add zncl2 over the side, and sorry
>> >for the mistake, I meant formation of oxygen. This is very common when
>> >using a platinum anode in electrolysis cells.
>>
>>
>> theoretically, you could use any anode material that wouldn't
>> contaminate the bath (Pt, graphite, Ta) as long as you made up the
>> metal lost with manual additions. in production plating, if the anode
>> area doesn't match the plated area reasonably closely, you wind up
>> depleting the tank's metal content. with regular analyses, you can
>> calculate the amount of metal salt to be added to maintain the recipe
>> concentration.
>> when i said "over the side" i meant the amount of metal salt, in this
>> case ZnCl2, that would be added "over the side" of the tank.
>
>That's what I figured. I am looking at stable anodes, that perform
>well under acidic conditions. (All electropositive metals I presume.)
not just electropositive, but inert. if electropositivity were the
only criteria, you could use iron. stuff like Pt, Ta, W are almost
completely unreactive in these solutions. if they reacted at all,
you'd face contamination issues. for instance, if you are plating
steel bolts in an acid chloride zinc bath, and some bolts fell to the
bottom of the tank, the iron that the bolts release into the bath
would interfere with the plating quality as the conc of Fe increased.
>I think I might use zinc sulfate. Do you have any expierence with
>this?
no. sorry, i don't. my feeling is that this would be a relatively
unorthodox choice.
>>
>>
>>
>> in an acid zinc tank, you generally generate H2 and O2 normally.
>>
>> >
>> >> >Third, I did in fact try acid chloride plating bath, with a zinc
>> >> >anode. I acidified distilled water, until the ph was 5.0, and added
>> >> >NaCl to the solution until the current was at an exact 1.0 amps/Square
>> >> >Inch. (Just happens to be the thing I was plating was 1 square inch)
>> >>
>> >> no ZnCl2? hmmm.
>> >
>> >Seriously no zncl2. It did work. Not well, as I heard with zinc
>> >sulfate or zinc chloride. I just wanted to find the cheapest way to
>> >plate, and a drop or two of hcl is a lot cheaper than a couple of
>> >grams of zinc chloride.
>>
>> good for you. its just that the purported mechanism for plating from
>> this bath is from the complex zinc salt, in your case Na2ZnCl4.
>> perhaps at very low concentration, you can avoid the grainy crumbly
>> deposit by keeping overall current density very low. i'm guessing...
>
>I think I am not going to use this method of plating as of yet. It
>seems to meet the requirements I need to plate extremly thick plates.
>I would rather just electrolytically force the zinc into solution
>rather than going about reacting or buying the chemicals. Would it be
>possible to have a zinc sulfate bath, in which my anode is Zinc
Zn is going to be your anode, whether its chloride, sulfate or
cyanide..
>, so
>when the plate is deposited on the cathode, the dissolved sulfate ions
>would attack the anode. This would make up for using massive amounts
>of zinc sulfate or whatever salt needed.
>>
>> >> KCl will give you much better "throw," but you've been amazingly
>> >> successful with NaCl. hats off.
>> >
>> >What is "throw"?
>>
>> current density applied over the geometry of the part. acid chloride
>> zinc has excellent throw in that a usable plate can be "thrown" into
>> blind holes, where in a cyanide bath a usable plate may not form as
>> deeply.
>
>Makes sense. So throw is directly proportional to the density of the
>solution, and how many ions are in contact with any given point at any
>given time
varied over time and applied power.
> I suppose, then that zncl2 is much more soluble than zinc
>cyanide. (what was the polyatomic ion of cyanide? CH3? CN3?)
zinc cyanide baths are very inexpensive and use Na salts. the zinc
species is supposed to be Na2Zn(CN)4
solubility isn't really an issue. its more about concentration of the
metal salt at the surface to be plated at the substrate, and the
amount power applied at that point.
>> >
>> >> >The plate was allowed to continue, for exactly 1 hour. The plate
>> >> >wasn't grainy, in which I was happy to find out, but depressed to find
>> >> >that it peeled very easily from my cathode. (Stainless)
>> >>
>> >> tough to plate on directly, anyway. good to know my experience isn't
>> >> too far off the mark. if you want to get it to stick, you'll have to
>> >> first plate the strip in a Wood's Nickel bath (NiCl2, HCl) rinse
>> >> quickly and go right into the Zn bath. i would qualify this further
>> >> step under "advanced". =)
>> >
>> >Yes, I fiqured that. I have heard of people using copper plates
>> >beforehand, and
>> >I personally have had great luck with copper plating.
>> >This peeling I expierence makes electroforming much easier it turns
>> >out. I was planning on using lead or tin as my cathode, but I have had
>> >problems with electronegativity, and the plating bath actually
>> >becoming a battery. Also these two metals in the presence of each
>> >other have seemed to have caused some extensive currosion.
>>
>>
>> galvanic, i'm sure.
>
>Obviously, considering I was generating a voltage with the two metals
>in solution. What about copper plating as a pre plate to make sure the
>zinc will stick on? Would that work.
you would think so. unfortunately, it doesn't work well. Cu and Zn
are very miscible. that is, a Cu strike plate will dissolve into any
deposited Zn over a fairly short time. if you Cu strike and Zn plate
a steel part, and heat it, say to bake out any hydrogen
embrittlement, cross section the part and inspect for plating
thickness, you won't find any Cu
> It seems to perform flawlessly
>with nickel sulfate.
yes, Ni is a good barrier plate. for instance Cu strike and Ag plate
does the same as Cu strike and Zn. Cu strike, Ni plate and Ag plate
works well....
>> >
>> >> >Anyways, I
>> >> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
>> >> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
>> >> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
>> >>
>> >> that's right. the black coating is normal.
>> >
>> >Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
>>
>> no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
>> be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
>> but don't know.
>
>Could it also be in certain areas of the cathode, where the current is
>the strongest, that the zinc cannot plate fast enough, and I am
>forming some kind of an oxide of zinc.
i don't think so. i'm betting its just a coating of finely divided
colloidal Zn, just before it dissolves into solution.
its not a reflection of a badly operated bath. those baths just
perform like that.
> I get this quite often with
>copper, in which if the voltage or the current is allowed to plate
>fast enough, It will plate cupric oxide instead of elemental copper.
hmmm. black areas on Cu plate are, in my experience, generally found
in low current density areas and may reflect metallic impurites in
your bath, say Pb or Cd, or even Fe or Ni.
is this an acid Cu bath or cyanide Cu?
its lower on the periodic table. without resorting to my textbooks, i
believe its because a K bath can carry more current than a comparable
Na bath. of course K salts are more expensive than Na salts, so
there's probably an economic reason for the more popular Na recipes.
extending that logic, Rb baths or even Cs baths should perform better
than K and Na baths. i don't have the equipment or money to test that
hypothesis though
>
>> the old timers used bizarre stuff like licorice, leather, tobacco
>> juice in some baths. i guess they would use whatever was handy. you
>> have to remember, most production plating baths were recipes put
>> together by trial and error before chemical quality control methods
>> were used. it was all art and very little science.
>> when i was a plater in 1979, i talked to the shop chemist about the
>> mechanism for chrome plating, assuming it was a straight redox
>> reaction. it isn't and the currently held mechanism wasn't proposed
>> until 1983. not bad for a bath that had been around since the mid
>> 1800's. fortunately, the art has receded and the science has improved
>
>He he, I could see this being a interference to standardization of
>plating tanks and baths. I suppose once you get a nice piece of
>equipment going, you probably want to go with the reliable
>standardized tank rather than one with a bunch of shit no one knows
>about in it.
that was the thing. as a plater, you couldn't really be sure what
imputities were in your Ni or Zn or Cd or Cr supply at the time of
purchase. everything was variable. that's hardly a formula for
economic success.
>> >
>
>> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
>> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
>> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
>>
>>
>> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
>> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
>
>That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
>large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
>produced.
>I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
>These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
>lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
with today's CNC tools, you should be able to machine exactly what you
need. with dimensions like that, you're looking for a Zn coupon (test
piece). heck. it may be possible to have a specialty metals guy slit
you sheets like that.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Oh, finally,
>> >> >As for the enviromentalism goes, niether of the sides are showing any
>> >> >worth while evidence to support them, other than some shady quotes,
>> >> >and a bunch of insults. So until either of you decides to post again,
>> >> >I strongly reccomend finding some evidence that will support your
>> >> >case.
>> >> >
>> >> >Thanks
>> >> >-Andrew
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> am i one or the other? i lived and worked thru the transition that we
>> >> went thru. there was a lot of fallout durnig the contraction of the
>> >> US plating industry. Hanson sounds like one of the platers or a
>> >> plating shop owner that couldn't keep up his end in a changing
>> >> industry.
>> >> i, for one, am grateful for that change.
>> >
>> >Hey whatever. I probably wasn't even alive. As I said before, I am a
>> >completely neutral party. I really don't have any strong feelings on
>> >any side.
>> >
>> >Thanks!
>> >-Andrew
>>
>> no problemo!
>
>Thanks again for your input. You are probably the most helpful poster
>on this entire zinc plating string.
>-Andrew
aww, shucks.
i actually miss the smell of cyanide. i guess that makes me a
whacko....
i guess once you become a factory rat, you always remain one.
Andrew de Halas
Actually Iron isn't electropositive at all it is electronegative with
the reaction fe-->fe++ at a voltage of -0.44 volts.
Here's alist of common electropositives.
Antimony
Bismuth
Arsenic
Copper
Oxygen
Silver
Mercury
Palladium
Gold
I do think the last three or four would be great for this application
though, because they are very inert. Although I do believe aqua regia
will etch several of them.
> Zn is going to be your anode, whether its chloride, sulfate or
> cyanide..
So I assume then, that one wouldm't need to replenish the salts being
electrolyzed on the cathode? Would the zinc be forced into solution
then?
> >Makes sense. So throw is directly proportional to the density of the
> >solution, and how many ions are in contact with any given point at any
> >given time
>
> varied over time and applied power.
You should elaborate on this. It might be helpful to know how this
works, so I can create my own solutions, without trying to find the
industry standards.
> zinc cyanide baths are very inexpensive and use Na salts. the zinc
> species is supposed to be Na2Zn(CN)4
> solubility isn't really an issue. its more about concentration of the
> metal salt at the surface to be plated at the substrate, and the
> amount power applied at that point.
Wouldn't concentration be directly related to solubility? Also, apart
from being inexpensive, they are very poisonous. I think I might stay
away from cyanite solutions. I once used ferric cyanide, and I got a
tiny amound on the tip of my finger. It was numb for about a month. It
was not fun, and I really did not like the fact that I thought I was
poisoned.
>
> >
> >Obviously, considering I was generating a voltage with the two metals
> >in solution. What about copper plating as a pre plate to make sure the
> >zinc will stick on? Would that work.
>
> you would think so. unfortunately, it doesn't work well. Cu and Zn
> are very miscible. that is, a Cu strike plate will dissolve into any
> deposited Zn over a fairly short time. if you Cu strike and Zn plate
> a steel part, and heat it, say to bake out any hydrogen
> embrittlement, cross section the part and inspect for plating
> thickness, you won't find any Cu
Ok... then how are copper plated zinc pennies (post 1983) made? It
can't be electroplated can it?
Also, couldn't one vapor deposit the zinc under a vacuum, with rf
sputtering?
I have had expierence plating glass with indium tin oxide (ITO) this
way. (Although not very well)
> >> >
> >> >> >Anyways, I
> >> >> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
> >> >> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
> >> >> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
> >> >>
> >> >> that's right. the black coating is normal.
> >> >
> >> >Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
> >>
> >> no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
> >> be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
> >> but don't know.
> >
> >Could it also be in certain areas of the cathode, where the current is
> >the strongest, that the zinc cannot plate fast enough, and I am
> >forming some kind of an oxide of zinc.
>
> i don't think so. i'm betting its just a coating of finely divided
> colloidal Zn, just before it dissolves into solution.
> its not a reflection of a badly operated bath. those baths just
> perform like that.
Colloidal? Elaborate.
>
> > I get this quite often with
> >copper, in which if the voltage or the current is allowed to plate
> >fast enough, It will plate cupric oxide instead of elemental copper.
>
> hmmm. black areas on Cu plate are, in my experience, generally found
> in low current density areas and may reflect metallic impurites in
> your bath, say Pb or Cd, or even Fe or Ni.
> is this an acid Cu bath or cyanide Cu?
CuSO4/H2S04 Plating bath.
> >Would this be somehow related to potassium being higher on the
> >periodic table than sodium. Meaning the voltage needed to break apart
> >a potassium salt is more than needed to break apart a sodium salt?
>
> its lower on the periodic table. without resorting to my textbooks, i
> believe its because a K bath can carry more current than a comparable
> Na bath. of course K salts are more expensive than Na salts, so
> there's probably an economic reason for the more popular Na recipes.
> extending that logic, Rb baths or even Cs baths should perform better
> than K and Na baths. i don't have the equipment or money to test that
> hypothesis though
Wonder why that is? Heavier the Alkali metal, the more current
capacity? Probably why the bigger reaction when dipping them into
water too. (Na Fizzes, K explodes)
> >> the old timers used bizarre stuff like licorice, leather, tobacco
> >> juice in some baths. i guess they would use whatever was handy. you
> >> have to remember, most production plating baths were recipes put
> >> together by trial and error before chemical quality control methods
> >> were used. it was all art and very little science.
> >> when i was a plater in 1979, i talked to the shop chemist about the
> >> mechanism for chrome plating, assuming it was a straight redox
> >> reaction. it isn't and the currently held mechanism wasn't proposed
> >> until 1983. not bad for a bath that had been around since the mid
> >> 1800's. fortunately, the art has receded and the science has improved
> >
> >He he, I could see this being a interference to standardization of
> >plating tanks and baths. I suppose once you get a nice piece of
> >equipment going, you probably want to go with the reliable
> >standardized tank rather than one with a bunch of shit no one knows
> >about in it.
>
> that was the thing. as a plater, you couldn't really be sure what
> imputities were in your Ni or Zn or Cd or Cr supply at the time of
> purchase. everything was variable. that's hardly a formula for
> economic success.
I would have to agree. It doesn't make much sense to be using things
that are not know why they help. Think of the contaminates!!! I am
suprised they could plate anything at all.
>
> >> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
> >> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
> >> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
> >>
> >>
> >> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
> >> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
> >
> >That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
> >large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
> >produced.
> >I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
> >These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
> >lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
>
> with today's CNC tools, you should be able to machine exactly what you
> need. with dimensions like that, you're looking for a Zn coupon (test
> piece). heck. it may be possible to have a specialty metals guy slit
> you sheets like that.
I know, As a matter of fact I have tried it with my cnc milling
machine. I did make the anode on the milling machine as well. (remeber
the bumpy one that is supposed to plate shallow bumps on the cathode.)
This was machined from aluminum, so I probably need to silver plate it
to protect it in my baths.
> >
> >Thanks again for your input. You are probably the most helpful poster
> >on this entire zinc plating string.
> >-Andrew
>
> aww, shucks.
>
> i actually miss the smell of cyanide. i guess that makes me a
> whacko....
> i guess once you become a factory rat, you always remain one.
He he, I guess your memory is a lot clearer now, compared to back
then. I didn't even know cyanide had a smell. (I was wearing a
respirator at the time) Your more bold than I am. I do not think your
a whacko, but maybe lightly brain damaged.
-Andrew
beavith
wrote:
yeah, but its close enough =)
>Antimony
>Bismuth
>Arsenic
>Copper
>Oxygen
>Silver
>Mercury
>Palladium
>Gold
you bet. Rh, Os and really expensive platinum group metals WOULD be
excellent. stuff like W and Ta are more commercially available.
>I do think the last three or four would be great for this application
>though, because they are very inert. Although I do believe aqua regia
>will etch several of them.
the chemistries in question aren't as aggressive as that.
>
>
>
>> Zn is going to be your anode, whether its chloride, sulfate or
>> cyanide..
>
>So I assume then, that one wouldm't need to replenish the salts being
>electrolyzed on the cathode? Would the zinc be forced into solution
>then?
that's right. especially if your ratio of anode to cathode (work
piece) area is close to unity, and the solution is inherently
efficient (inefficiency is measured by how much gas is generated
versus how much plate is deposited).
in the real world, especially if you consider solution drag out,
chemical additions are necessary.
>
>
>
>> >Makes sense. So throw is directly proportional to the density of the
>> >solution, and how many ions are in contact with any given point at any
>> >given time
>>
>> varied over time and applied power.
>
>You should elaborate on this. It might be helpful to know how this
>works, so I can create my own solutions, without trying to find the
>industry standards.
the scale and scope of what you want to do is enormous. if there was
one or two or even three variables, maybe as an exercise, redeveloping
everything known about plating could be done. let me give you a quick
idea of some of the variables in a Ni tank.
Ni metal
Ni SO4
NiCl2
H3BO3
temp
agitation
pH
metal contamination:
Ca
Mg
Fe
Cr
Pb
Cd
Al
Cu
organic contamination:
soap drag in
brightener breakdown
oil/grease
power quality
work geometry
work area
anode area
solution volume
brightener(s)
wetter
and that's just off the top of my head.
and Ni bath chemistry is pretty simple. can you imagine how complex
a "DOX" would have to be to pin down each and every variable? 100
years of experience and knowledge go into just about every bath on the
planet.
>
>> zinc cyanide baths are very inexpensive and use Na salts. the zinc
>> species is supposed to be Na2Zn(CN)4
>> solubility isn't really an issue. its more about concentration of the
>> metal salt at the surface to be plated at the substrate, and the
>> amount power applied at that point.
>
>Wouldn't concentration be directly related to solubility?
no. CuCN is quite slowly soluble in water. in a NaCN plating bath,
it's still not very quickly soluble. you have to dissolve it with a
slight excess of NaCN in warm water.
once it IS dissolved, the complexed Cu at the work surface, under a
particular electrical potential, will do whatever Faraday's Law will
allow it to do.
>Also, apart
>from being inexpensive, they are very poisonous.
poisonous is such an overused term =) just kidding. i suppose you
could say that nitric or sulfuric acids are poisonous, too.
the stuff is widely used and injuries and illnesses are fortunately
few and far between. still, if you have no expereince with the stuff,
its probably better to not work with it.
> I think I might stay
>away from cyanite solutions. I once used ferric cyanide,
as in K4Fe(CN)6 ? that's not nearly as poisonous as straight KCN.
>and I got a
>tiny amound on the tip of my finger. It was numb for about a month. It
>was not fun, and I really did not like the fact that I thought I was
>poisoned.
sounds more like a burn. what else was in it? sulfuric acid?
>>
>
>> >
>> >Obviously, considering I was generating a voltage with the two metals
>> >in solution. What about copper plating as a pre plate to make sure the
>> >zinc will stick on? Would that work.
>>
>> you would think so. unfortunately, it doesn't work well. Cu and Zn
>> are very miscible. that is, a Cu strike plate will dissolve into any
>> deposited Zn over a fairly short time. if you Cu strike and Zn plate
>> a steel part, and heat it, say to bake out any hydrogen
>> embrittlement, cross section the part and inspect for plating
>> thickness, you won't find any Cu
>
>Ok... then how are copper plated zinc pennies (post 1983) made? It
>can't be electroplated can it?
i was talking about Zn on Cu strike.
sure it can! pennies are Zn slugs with a heavy Cu plate (.0040" +)
trust me. dissolution is going on, its just going to take a while.
when we are all much older, pennies from this era are going to look
like brass....
i wonder if you bake a current-era penny in an oven, if it won't get
brassy.
>Also, couldn't one vapor deposit the zinc under a vacuum, with rf
>sputtering?
yep
>I have had expierence plating glass with indium tin oxide (ITO) this
>way. (Although not very well)
what happened?
>
>> >> >
>> >> >> >Anyways, I
>> >> >> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
>> >> >> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
>> >> >> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> that's right. the black coating is normal.
>> >> >
>> >> >Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
>> >>
>> >> no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
>> >> be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
>> >> but don't know.
>> >
>> >Could it also be in certain areas of the cathode, where the current is
>> >the strongest, that the zinc cannot plate fast enough, and I am
>> >forming some kind of an oxide of zinc.
>>
>> i don't think so. i'm betting its just a coating of finely divided
>> colloidal Zn, just before it dissolves into solution.
>> its not a reflection of a badly operated bath. those baths just
>> perform like that.
>
>Colloidal? Elaborate.
very very fine Zn particles. when its particularly fine, it's not
silver anymore, its black. Ag is well known to do this. its the
basis of making a mirror. the black underlayer of a mirror is
colloidal Ag.
you don't see it with Zn so much because Zn is considered an
inexpensive "base" metal, like Cu or Pb. its so cheap, no one
cares...
>>
>> > I get this quite often with
>> >copper, in which if the voltage or the current is allowed to plate
>> >fast enough, It will plate cupric oxide instead of elemental copper.
>>
>
>> hmmm. black areas on Cu plate are, in my experience, generally found
>> in low current density areas and may reflect metallic impurites in
>> your bath, say Pb or Cd, or even Fe or Ni.
>> is this an acid Cu bath or cyanide Cu?
>
>CuSO4/H2S04 Plating bath.
i don't have as much experience with acid Cu as i do with
Cu/Brass/Bronze cyanide baths.
what does the oxide look like? where does it form on the parts? the
most sheltered or isolated areas away from the anodes?
>
>> >Would this be somehow related to potassium being higher on the
>> >periodic table than sodium. Meaning the voltage needed to break apart
>> >a potassium salt is more than needed to break apart a sodium salt?
>>
>> its lower on the periodic table. without resorting to my textbooks, i
>> believe its because a K bath can carry more current than a comparable
>> Na bath. of course K salts are more expensive than Na salts, so
>> there's probably an economic reason for the more popular Na recipes.
>> extending that logic, Rb baths or even Cs baths should perform better
>> than K and Na baths. i don't have the equipment or money to test that
>> hypothesis though
>
>Wonder why that is? Heavier the Alkali metal, the more current
>capacity? Probably why the bigger reaction when dipping them into
>water too. (Na Fizzes, K explodes)
can't really say, except that Mendeleev was right. periodic
properties recur all the way down the chart.
>
>> >> the old timers used bizarre stuff like licorice, leather, tobacco
>> >> juice in some baths. i guess they would use whatever was handy. you
>> >> have to remember, most production plating baths were recipes put
>> >> together by trial and error before chemical quality control methods
>> >> were used. it was all art and very little science.
>> >> when i was a plater in 1979, i talked to the shop chemist about the
>> >> mechanism for chrome plating, assuming it was a straight redox
>> >> reaction. it isn't and the currently held mechanism wasn't proposed
>> >> until 1983. not bad for a bath that had been around since the mid
>> >> 1800's. fortunately, the art has receded and the science has improved
>> >
>> >He he, I could see this being a interference to standardization of
>> >plating tanks and baths. I suppose once you get a nice piece of
>> >equipment going, you probably want to go with the reliable
>> >standardized tank rather than one with a bunch of shit no one knows
>> >about in it.
>>
>> that was the thing. as a plater, you couldn't really be sure what
>> imputities were in your Ni or Zn or Cd or Cr supply at the time of
>> purchase. everything was variable. that's hardly a formula for
>> economic success.
>
>I would have to agree. It doesn't make much sense to be using things
>that are not know why they help. Think of the contaminates!!! I am
>suprised they could plate anything at all.
and yet chrome plated bumpers on cars are everywhere. and have been
for the better part of century. a good plater was worth his weight in
gold. of course, the material costs were so cheap that you could dump
the tank and start fresh whenever you wanted.
it was a different time.
>
>>
>> >> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
>> >> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
>> >> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
>> >> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
>> >
>> >That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
>> >large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
>> >produced.
>> >I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
>> >These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
>> >lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
>>
>> with today's CNC tools, you should be able to machine exactly what you
>> need. with dimensions like that, you're looking for a Zn coupon (test
>> piece). heck. it may be possible to have a specialty metals guy slit
>> you sheets like that.
>
>I know, As a matter of fact I have tried it with my cnc milling
>machine. I did make the anode on the milling machine as well. (remeber
>the bumpy one that is supposed to plate shallow bumps on the cathode.)
>This was machined from aluminum, so I probably need to silver plate it
>to protect it in my baths.
if you can do it with Al, why not with Zn?
>
>
>> >
>> >Thanks again for your input. You are probably the most helpful poster
>> >on this entire zinc plating string.
>> >-Andrew
>>
>> aww, shucks.
>>
>> i actually miss the smell of cyanide. i guess that makes me a
>> whacko....
>> i guess once you become a factory rat, you always remain one.
>
>He he, I guess your memory is a lot clearer now, compared to back
>then. I didn't even know cyanide had a smell. (I was wearing a
>respirator at the time)
oh yeah. like almonds. don't be afraid....
> Your more bold than I am. I do not think your
>a whacko, but maybe lightly brain damaged.
hehe. i've been told that the human liver has an enzyme that destroys
CN in the body, if you are exposed to it on a small and steady basis.
seeing that i worked with it for 15 years, i like to think that if i
ever mudered anyone (hanson, where are you =) ), i would choose
the gas chamber because i'm not sure that they could execute me with
that stuff (KCN pellets dropped into H2SO4 in a small tightly sealed
box, strapped into a chair)
>-Andrew
hanson
> an...@lookingglass.com (Andrew de Halas)an...@lookingglass.com (Andrew de Halas)
> > I think I might stay
> > away from cyanite solutions. I once used ferric cyanide,
> as in K4Fe(CN)6 ? that's not nearly as poisonous as straight KCN.
>
> >and I got a
> >tiny amound on the tip of my finger. It was numb for about a month. It
> >was not fun, and I really did not like the fact that I thought I was
> >poisoned.
>
> sounds more like a burn. what else was in it? sulfuric acid?
> >>
> >
> >>
> >> i actually miss the smell of cyanide. i guess that makes me a
> >> whacko....
> >> i guess once you become a factory rat, you always remain one.
> >
> >He he, I guess your memory is a lot clearer now, compared to back
> >then. I didn't even know cyanide had a smell. (I was wearing a
> >respirator at the time)
>
> oh yeah. like almonds. don't be afraid....
>
> > Your more bold than I am. I do not think your
> >a whacko, but maybe lightly brain damaged.
>
> hehe. i've been told that the human liver has an enzyme that destroys
> CN in the body, if you are exposed to it on a small and steady basis.
> seeing that i worked with it for 15 years, i like to think that if i
> ever mudered anyone (hanson, where are you =) ), i would choose
> the gas chamber because i'm not sure that they could execute me with
> that stuff (KCN pellets dropped into H2SO4 in a small tightly sealed
> box, strapped into a chair)
>
[hanson]
> hanson, where are you ?
Over here,....but keep on with your "mudered" mutterings.....
You guys entertain hanson very well. Thank you guys.
If you will say something worthwhile to comment on
I shall do so. Till then thanks for the laughs, to you two.
ahahaha.......ahahahanson
beavith
>>
>> hehe. i've been told that the human liver has an enzyme that destroys
>> CN in the body, if you are exposed to it on a small and steady basis.
>> seeing that i worked with it for 15 years, i like to think that if i
>> ever mudered anyone (hanson, where are you =) ), i would choose
>> the gas chamber because i'm not sure that they could execute me with
>> that stuff (KCN pellets dropped into H2SO4 in a small tightly sealed
>> box, strapped into a chair)
>>
>[hanson]
>> hanson, where are you ?
>Over here,....but keep on with your "mudered" mutterings.....
>You guys entertain hanson very well. Thank you guys.
>If you will say something worthwhile to comment on
>I shall do so. Till then thanks for the laughs, to you two.
>ahahaha.......ahahahanson
i knew you were out there somplace =)
Andrew de Halas
> >> >That's what I figured. I am looking at stable anodes, that perform
> >> >well under acidic conditions. (All electropositive metals I presume.)
> >>
> >> not just electropositive, but inert. if electropositivity were the
> >> only criteria, you could use iron. stuff like Pt, Ta, W are almost
> >> completely unreactive in these solutions. if they reacted at all,
> >> you'd face contamination issues. for instance, if you are plating
> >> steel bolts in an acid chloride zinc bath, and some bolts fell to the
> >> bottom of the tank, the iron that the bolts release into the bath
> >> would interfere with the plating quality as the conc of Fe increased.
> >
> >Actually Iron isn't electropositive at all it is electronegative with
> >the reaction fe-->fe++ at a voltage of -0.44 volts.
> >Here's alist of common electropositives.
>
> yeah, but its close enough =)
>
> >Antimony
> >Bismuth
> >Arsenic
> >Copper
> >Oxygen
> >Silver
> >Mercury
> >Palladium
> >Gold
>
> you bet. Rh, Os and really expensive platinum group metals WOULD be
> excellent. stuff like W and Ta are more commercially available.
I suppose it would... Still W is damn expensive. I think I might just
stick to graphite or Stainless. Although I might just have the anode
be the metal I'm plating, so the losses to the bath are minimal.
>
> >I do think the last three or four would be great for this application
> >though, because they are very inert. Although I do believe aqua regia
> >will etch several of them.
>
> the chemistries in question aren't as aggressive as that.
I suppose that if one uses the correct plating bath they could plate
the anodic materials directly on the substrate. I have personally seen
this happen with gold and nitric acid.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Zn is going to be your anode, whether its chloride, sulfate or
> >> cyanide..
> >
> >So I assume then, that one wouldm't need to replenish the salts being
> >electrolyzed on the cathode? Would the zinc be forced into solution
> >then?
>
> that's right. especially if your ratio of anode to cathode (work
> piece) area is close to unity, and the solution is inherently
> efficient (inefficiency is measured by how much gas is generated
> versus how much plate is deposited).
> in the real world, especially if you consider solution drag out,
> chemical additions are necessary.
The real world is a bitch.
Damn it. Like I said the real world is a bitch. Why can't their be a
100% assay plating bath?
> >
> >> zinc cyanide baths are very inexpensive and use Na salts. the zinc
> >> species is supposed to be Na2Zn(CN)4
> >> solubility isn't really an issue. its more about concentration of the
> >> metal salt at the surface to be plated at the substrate, and the
> >> amount power applied at that point.
> >
> >Wouldn't concentration be directly related to solubility?
>
> no. CuCN is quite slowly soluble in water. in a NaCN plating bath,
> it's still not very quickly soluble. you have to dissolve it with a
> slight excess of NaCN in warm water.
> once it IS dissolved, the complexed Cu at the work surface, under a
> particular electrical potential, will do whatever Faraday's Law will
> allow it to do.
>
> >Also, apart
> >from being inexpensive, they are very poisonous.
>
> poisonous is such an overused term =) just kidding. i suppose you
> could say that nitric or sulfuric acids are poisonous, too.
> the stuff is widely used and injuries and illnesses are fortunately
> few and far between. still, if you have no expereince with the stuff,
> its probably better to not work with it.
>
> > I think I might stay
> >away from cyanite solutions. I once used ferric cyanide,
>
> as in K4Fe(CN)6 ? that's not nearly as poisonous as straight KCN.
I am not sure. I think it might have been in conjunction with another
metal.
Aluminum Ferro Cyanate if I am remembering correctly. The plan was to
plate the Iron directly on the plate and have the aluminum dissolve in
the NaOH present in the bath. The voltage was to be high enough to
plate iron, but not enough to overcome the breakdown of ALOH. I
beilieve I was plating at 4.0 volts.
>
> >and I got a
> >tiny amound on the tip of my finger. It was numb for about a month. It
> >was not fun, and I really did not like the fact that I thought I was
> >poisoned.
>
> sounds more like a burn. what else was in it? sulfuric acid?
Aluminum Ferro Cyanate/NaOH
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> >Obviously, considering I was generating a voltage with the two metals
> >> >in solution. What about copper plating as a pre plate to make sure the
> >> >zinc will stick on? Would that work.
> >>
> >> you would think so. unfortunately, it doesn't work well. Cu and Zn
> >> are very miscible. that is, a Cu strike plate will dissolve into any
> >> deposited Zn over a fairly short time. if you Cu strike and Zn plate
> >> a steel part, and heat it, say to bake out any hydrogen
> >> embrittlement, cross section the part and inspect for plating
> >> thickness, you won't find any Cu
> >
> >Ok... then how are copper plated zinc pennies (post 1983) made? It
> >can't be electroplated can it?
>
> i was talking about Zn on Cu strike.
> sure it can! pennies are Zn slugs with a heavy Cu plate (.0040" +)
> trust me. dissolution is going on, its just going to take a while.
> when we are all much older, pennies from this era are going to look
> like brass....
> i wonder if you bake a current-era penny in an oven, if it won't get
> brassy.
Actually for the longest time I was melting down pennies to get my
zinc. Before old lincoln looked like a salvidor dali painting, it
would get a brassy look. I had always assumed it was oxides, but most
oxides of brass are pink or black. Cupric and Cuprous oxides.
>
> >Also, couldn't one vapor deposit the zinc under a vacuum, with rf
> >sputtering?
>
> yep
No shit.
> >I have had expierence plating glass with indium tin oxide (ITO) this
> >way. (Although not very well)
>
> what happened?
The plate was uneven in thickness, which was measured by 4 point
resistivity. I should be getting resistances between 40-50 ohms, but
it was varying between 10-25 ohms. This is believed to be an error
with the magnetron. But what can you do if you have a hobbiest bell
jar, and a microwave oven magnetron. Also, I am sorry for the error,
the metal was tin oxide that I was plating. Indium tin oxide is what I
finally broke down and ordered from a specialty glass supplier.
> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Anyways, I
> >> >> >> >have a nice piece of zinc foil to show for this. Another thing was
> >> >> >> >that my zinc anode plate seemed to show signs of blackening on several
> >> >> >> >places. I believe the current was the strongest.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> that's right. the black coating is normal.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Well is there a way to reduce the black coating?
> >> >>
> >> >> no need. when its working right, you're going to get that. could it
> >> >> be colloidal zinc, right before it dissolves into solution? i suspect,
> >> >> but don't know.
> >> >
> >> >Could it also be in certain areas of the cathode, where the current is
> >> >the strongest, that the zinc cannot plate fast enough, and I am
> >> >forming some kind of an oxide of zinc.
> >>
> >> i don't think so. i'm betting its just a coating of finely divided
> >> colloidal Zn, just before it dissolves into solution.
> >> its not a reflection of a badly operated bath. those baths just
> >> perform like that.
> >
> >Colloidal? Elaborate.
>
> very very fine Zn particles. when its particularly fine, it's not
> silver anymore, its black. Ag is well known to do this. its the
> basis of making a mirror. the black underlayer of a mirror is
> colloidal Ag.
> you don't see it with Zn so much because Zn is considered an
> inexpensive "base" metal, like Cu or Pb. its so cheap, no one
> cares...
What if one was doing specialty plates for highly polished surfaces?
Copper especially.
> >>
> >> > I get this quite often with
> >> >copper, in which if the voltage or the current is allowed to plate
> >> >fast enough, It will plate cupric oxide instead of elemental copper.
> >>
>
> >> hmmm. black areas on Cu plate are, in my experience, generally found
> >> in low current density areas and may reflect metallic impurites in
> >> your bath, say Pb or Cd, or even Fe or Ni.
> >> is this an acid Cu bath or cyanide Cu?
> >
> >CuSO4/H2S04 Plating bath.
>
> i don't have as much experience with acid Cu as i do with
> Cu/Brass/Bronze cyanide baths.
>
> what does the oxide look like? where does it form on the parts? the
> most sheltered or isolated areas away from the anodes?
Black or pink plates. It depends on the voltage. The are in ridges or
points on the plate. Usually farthest from the anode than any other
part or the substrate.
I know the pink is cuprous oxide, because I have had some success with
getting the photovoltaic effect from it. Although I might have to
doubt my findings because it must be relativly inpure by the fact that
the current produced by the cells is no more the 1 ma/6 square inches.
I think the sunlight has to go through a lot of elemental copper
before it can meet the junction between Cu2O and the Cu
> >
> >> >Would this be somehow related to potassium being higher on the
> >> >periodic table than sodium. Meaning the voltage needed to break apart
> >> >a potassium salt is more than needed to break apart a sodium salt?
> >>
> >> its lower on the periodic table. without resorting to my textbooks, i
> >> believe its because a K bath can carry more current than a comparable
> >> Na bath. of course K salts are more expensive than Na salts, so
> >> there's probably an economic reason for the more popular Na recipes.
> >> extending that logic, Rb baths or even Cs baths should perform better
> >> than K and Na baths. i don't have the equipment or money to test that
> >> hypothesis though
> >
> >Wonder why that is? Heavier the Alkali metal, the more current
> >capacity? Probably why the bigger reaction when dipping them into
> >water too. (Na Fizzes, K explodes)
>
> can't really say, except that Mendeleev was right. periodic
> properties recur all the way down the chart.
Thats why they made it like that.
> >
> >>
> >> >> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
> >> >> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
> >> >> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
> >> >> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
> >> >
> >> >That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
> >> >large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
> >> >produced.
> >> >I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
> >> >These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
> >> >lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
> >>
> >> with today's CNC tools, you should be able to machine exactly what you
> >> need. with dimensions like that, you're looking for a Zn coupon (test
> >> piece). heck. it may be possible to have a specialty metals guy slit
> >> you sheets like that.
> >
> >I know, As a matter of fact I have tried it with my cnc milling
> >machine. I did make the anode on the milling machine as well. (remeber
> >the bumpy one that is supposed to plate shallow bumps on the cathode.)
> >This was machined from aluminum, so I probably need to silver plate it
> >to protect it in my baths.
>
> if you can do it with Al, why not with Zn?
I have thought about that, but I cannot make the shallow bumps I need
with a machine, and also plating just seems to be more fun.
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> >Thanks again for your input. You are probably the most helpful poster
> >> >on this entire zinc plating string.
> >> >-Andrew
> >>
> >> aww, shucks.
> >>
> >> i actually miss the smell of cyanide. i guess that makes me a
> >> whacko....
> >> i guess once you become a factory rat, you always remain one.
> >
> >He he, I guess your memory is a lot clearer now, compared to back
> >then. I didn't even know cyanide had a smell. (I was wearing a
> >respirator at the time)
>
> oh yeah. like almonds. don't be afraid....
I have heard that. I think I might not go by the nuts anymore in the
grocery store. Might freak me out a little...
>
> > Your more bold than I am. I do not think your
> >a whacko, but maybe lightly brain damaged.
>
> hehe. i've been told that the human liver has an enzyme that destroys
> CN in the body, if you are exposed to it on a small and steady basis.
> seeing that i worked with it for 15 years, i like to think that if i
> ever mudered anyone (hanson, where are you =) ), i would choose
> the gas chamber because i'm not sure that they could execute me with
> that stuff (KCN pellets dropped into H2SO4 in a small tightly sealed
> box, strapped into a chair)
Actually cyanide acts in a very wierd way in the body that kills you.
First it acts as a catalytic destroyer of the electron transport chain
in the mitochondria.
The mitochondria makes ATP or adanine triphosphate which is a highly
energetic molecule that has a half life of a couple of seconds.
It will run the ATP through the electron transport chain where it uses
the fact of differential solubility of hydrogen ions.
As the ATP runs through the chain it creates free hydrogen ions
outside of a membrane, where the concentration is high, and lets a
controlled folw of the ions to the inside of the membrane where they
are to be converted to ATP again using the Calvin Cycle. This
controlled flow is where the cell is allowed to get it's energy from
to move about or whatnot.
Anyhow, the cyanide ion will attach and catalytically destroy one of
the links in the electron transport chain. This not only does not
allow production of hydrogen ions, it also allows uncontrolled flow of
the ions into the inner membrane, therefore no energy can be
extracted. Cells exposed to cyanide will die within a few seconds.
Now don't quote me on this, but it is fairly correct.
-Andrew
beavith
wrote:
>> >> >
and for the base metals, plating from the gross anode is the usual
method.
there is. however, the only thing that you can count is electrons.
when a usable electron plate can be made, we'll be all set. =)
use the literature. Fe(BF4)3 baths are the practical standard.
>>
>> >and I got a
>> >tiny amound on the tip of my finger. It was numb for about a month. It
>> >was not fun, and I really did not like the fact that I thought I was
>> >poisoned.
>>
>> sounds more like a burn. what else was in it? sulfuric acid?
>
>Aluminum Ferro Cyanate/NaOH
yeah. it was the NaOH. the Fe(CN)6 salts are relatively inert.
your name wouldn't be "MacGyver" would it? i wouldn't have thought of
that in a million years!
>Also, I am sorry for the error,
>the metal was tin oxide that I was plating. Indium tin oxide is what I
>finally broke down and ordered from a specialty glass supplier.
hmmm. for something as specialized as that, i would've gone to a
catalog.
the black color suggests a low current density area on the part. it
may be a copper oxide, but it could also be Pb or Cd or other metal
contaminant in the bath (Ni, Fe, Sn?). when these metals exceed
several ppm, they will codeposit at very low current density. stuff
like Cd and Sn in a cyanide bath will cause a bronzy color, but stuff
like Ni will cause darkness. in my acid Cu bath, the biggest hurdle
to heavy production was a climbing Cl concentration that would make an
acceptably bright range too small. i could plate dull Cu all day, but
that would've required a manual polishing step that added expense.
>I know the pink is cuprous oxide, because I have had some success with
>getting the photovoltaic effect from it.
neat!
i would've called it just a "burned" area where the current density
exceeds the ability to deposit metal. for bright Cu, to avoid this,
we turn down the power a little.
>Although I might have to
>doubt my findings because it must be relativly inpure by the fact that
>the current produced by the cells is no more the 1 ma/6 square inches.
how do you measure that?
jeez. you have ALL the toys. all i had was glassware, a hot plate a
hull cell and about 40 tanks of plating solutions.
>I think the sunlight has to go through a lot of elemental copper
>before it can meet the junction between Cu2O and the Cu
do you cross section to see if htere is a junction?
>
>> >
>> >> >Would this be somehow related to potassium being higher on the
>> >> >periodic table than sodium. Meaning the voltage needed to break apart
>> >> >a potassium salt is more than needed to break apart a sodium salt?
>> >>
>> >> its lower on the periodic table. without resorting to my textbooks, i
>> >> believe its because a K bath can carry more current than a comparable
>> >> Na bath. of course K salts are more expensive than Na salts, so
>> >> there's probably an economic reason for the more popular Na recipes.
>> >> extending that logic, Rb baths or even Cs baths should perform better
>> >> than K and Na baths. i don't have the equipment or money to test that
>> >> hypothesis though
>> >
>> >Wonder why that is? Heavier the Alkali metal, the more current
>> >capacity? Probably why the bigger reaction when dipping them into
>> >water too. (Na Fizzes, K explodes)
>>
>> can't really say, except that Mendeleev was right. periodic
>> properties recur all the way down the chart.
>
>Thats why they made it like that.
can't argue with science....
>
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >> >This was a test. I needed to try out the procedures before attempting
>> >> >> >full time manufacture. I will plate maybe hundreds of hours until
>> >> >> >thickness requirments are met. (1/4 of an inch or more)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> wow! that's incredibly thick! with thickness like that, can you
>> >> >> machine a zinc sheet? or galvanize/galvalume?
>> >> >
>> >> >That is exactly what I am looking to do. I need to electroform some
>> >> >large electrodes that will last a while when electric current is being
>> >> >produced.
>> >> >I like the fact that electroplating is much more precise than casting.
>> >> >These plates are going to be about 4" x 8" x 1/4". So, yea, thats a
>> >> >lot of current for a quite a bit of time.
>> >>
>> >> with today's CNC tools, you should be able to machine exactly what you
>> >> need. with dimensions like that, you're looking for a Zn coupon (test
>> >> piece). heck. it may be possible to have a specialty metals guy slit
>> >> you sheets like that.
>> >
>> >I know, As a matter of fact I have tried it with my cnc milling
>> >machine. I did make the anode on the milling machine as well. (remeber
>> >the bumpy one that is supposed to plate shallow bumps on the cathode.)
>> >This was machined from aluminum, so I probably need to silver plate it
>> >to protect it in my baths.
>>
>> if you can do it with Al, why not with Zn?
>
>I have thought about that, but I cannot make the shallow bumps I need
>with a machine, and also plating just seems to be more fun.
i won't argue about the fun aspect. i'm forced to agree. however,
not to rain on your parade, but a knowledgeable CNC guy should be able
to do just about anything. this is a trivial machining problem,
especially at the scale that you want to deal with. plus, once you
get one, you can have a million pretty quickly.
that's a creepy level of detail. i thought it was a suffocation
process, akin to CO poisoning, whre it preferentially attached to
hemeglobin.
no matter. i don't expect i'll be playing with that stuff anytime
soon.
>
>-Andrew
Andrew de Halas
> >> you bet. Rh, Os and really expensive platinum group metals WOULD be
> >> excellent. stuff like W and Ta are more commercially available.
> >
> >I suppose it would... Still W is damn expensive. I think I might just
> >stick to graphite or Stainless. Although I might just have the anode
> >be the metal I'm plating, so the losses to the bath are minimal.
>
> and for the base metals, plating from the gross anode is the usual
> method.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> no. CuCN is quite slowly soluble in water. in a NaCN plating bath,
> >> >Ok... then how are copper plated zinc pennies (post 1983) made? It
Why not. It is not that incredibly hard. Just a little bit of research
and this could be accomplished. I came up with my own way of tin oxide
plating because I needed to plate a conductive, but clear layer on a
piece of low iron glass to be used in dye sensitized solar cells.
(Titanium Dioxide/raspberry juice)
>
>
> >Also, I am sorry for the error,
> >the metal was tin oxide that I was plating. Indium tin oxide is what I
> >finally broke down and ordered from a specialty glass supplier.
>
> hmmm. for something as specialized as that, i would've gone to a
> catalog.
Catalog? Hmmm... Where do I find these "catalogs"?
Alright. How does one plate a particularly shiny plate? I always
assumed it was just surface prep, but after polishing the substrates
very well, I would still sometimes come up with a dull plate, and I
would need to hand polish them again?
>
> >I know the pink is cuprous oxide, because I have had some success with
> >getting the photovoltaic effect from it.
>
> neat!
> i would've called it just a "burned" area where the current density
> exceeds the ability to deposit metal. for bright Cu, to avoid this,
> we turn down the power a little.
I think I get this effect if the voltage is above 2-3 volts. I cant
remeber if I said this already.
>
> >Although I might have to
> >doubt my findings because it must be relativly inpure by the fact that
> >the current produced by the cells is no more the 1 ma/6 square inches.
>
> how do you measure that?
> jeez. you have ALL the toys. all i had was glassware, a hot plate a
> hull cell and about 40 tanks of plating solutions.
Hull cell? What is that?
Anyhow, I just used a nice digital meter, and measured the effects of
varying amounts of light on the surface. Using the constant 1 sun=1000
watt/meter squared, one can deduce the efficiency of these little
things.
> >I think the sunlight has to go through a lot of elemental copper
> >before it can meet the junction between Cu2O and the Cu
>
> do you cross section to see if htere is a junction?
I don't need to. If there wasn't a junction, it would not produce the
photovoltaic effect. Although, I did try and etch the copper off to
give just cuprous oxide, so that I could try a vacuum vapor deposit it
on sheets of copper
to give a better junction, but the etchant ate the Cu2O right off. I
haven't been experimenting to find a good etchant for this job.
The one nice thing about electroplating is the fact that there are no
moving parts, one can plate millions at a time with the right amount
of resources, and it is probably a little bit safer than machining.
Another cool thing I might try is forging, but I am not sure it will
yield good results, but sand casting does leave many thousands of
little bumps everywhere, and that would be useful.
Good for you. I think I like to stick with the sulfates. They're
easier to plate and better for your health.
> >-Andrew