Knives made of Damascus Steel
Uncle Al
Michael Reik wrote:
>
> Hello,
> can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
Damascus steel or the Japanese version is an ultrahigh carbon steel
which is worked at red heat, pounded until it is doubled in length or
width, folded, and pounded again, etc., until thousands of brittle
platey carbide and oxide ceramic microinclusions are aligned and
dispersed within a relatively ductile steel matrix. The edge of the
ground blade thus consists of untold ceramic microknives aligned and
supported in the bulk metal, and is surpassingly sharp. The Japanese
blade edge was further ceramicized.
The Damascus version shows phase segregation and alignment as "Mohamet's
Ladder." A good Damascus steel sword was said to cut through Crusaders'
armor, and yet be flexible tip to hilt and spring back. European smiths
working with smuggled precursor tried to work it too hot, and got
nothing but slag for their efforts. Crusaders' cutlery was abominable.
God sided with those who knew math and science, as usual.
The Japanese edges were exceptional. It was said that a blade held
upright in the flow of a stream would cleave a floating leaf brushing
past it. Alas, they were not stainless.
Maraging steels, crucible steels, and oxide-pinned superalloys
differentially tempered can match and exceed the strength of Damascus or
samurai steel, but the latter's edge created by the ceramic inclusions
is unique.
Talk with a good knifemaker. Does Lovelace still practice the art in
San Berdoo?
--
Uncle Al Schwartz
Uncl...@ix.netcom.com ("zero" before @)
http://pw2.netcom.com/~uncleal0/uncleal.htm
http://www.ultra.net.au/~wisby/uncleal.htm
http://www.guyy.demon.co.uk/uncleal/uncleal.htm
(Toxic URLs! Unsafe for children, Democrats, and most mammals)
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" The Net!
Rich Lemert
Uncle Al wrote:
>
> Michael Reik wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
>
> Damascus steel or the Japanese version is an ultrahigh carbon steel
> which is worked at red heat, pounded until it is doubled in length or
> width, folded, and pounded again, etc., until thousands of brittle
> platey carbide and oxide ceramic microinclusions are aligned and
> dispersed within a relatively ductile steel matrix. The edge of the
> ground blade thus consists of untold ceramic microknives aligned and
> supported in the bulk metal, and is surpassingly sharp. The Japanese
> blade edge was further ceramicized.
>
>
> Maraging steels, crucible steels, and oxide-pinned superalloys
> differentially tempered can match and exceed the strength of Damascus or
> samurai steel, but the latter's edge created by the ceramic inclusions
> is unique.
>
> Talk with a good knifemaker. Does Lovelace still practice the art in
> San Berdoo?
>
There was an article in today's local paper about a Mr. Bob Kramer
in Seattle who just became one of only 67 Master Bladesmith's in the
United States. To reach this milestone, he had to:
produce one knife that would slice through a thick, free-hanging rope
with a single swipe
produce another blade that would hack through a 2X4
produce yet another that could bend 90 degrees without breaking
or losing its edge
craft of blade of Damascus steel
make a copy of a Quillian dagger, an apparently intricate dagger
of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries
If you're interested in contacting him, he runs "Bladesmith's Inc."
in Seattle's Pioneer Square.
Rich Lemert
Uncle Al
That such artisans still exist enforces one's faith in then exercise of
civilization.
Mike H
In article <34EA4B...@continet.com>, Rich Lemert
<RLe...@continet.com> writes
>Uncle Al wrote:
>>
>> Michael Reik wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> > can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
>>
>>
>>
>
> There was an article in today's local paper about a Mr. Bob Kramer
>in Seattle who just became one of only 67 Master Bladesmith's in the
>United States. To reach this milestone, he had to:
>
> produce one knife that would slice through a thick, free-hanging rope
> with a single swipe
>
> produce another blade that would hack through a 2X4
>
> produce yet another that could bend 90 degrees without breaking
> or losing its edge
>
> craft of blade of Damascus steel
>
Good thing he didn't make a Japanese katana, for which the traditional
test was to cut a prisoner in half with a single blow. Vertically !!
(Mind you, they do settle for a bale of straw these days - just not the
same somehow !).
--
Mike H
"If truth equals concensus and the populace is wrong....
- I am still condemned"
N.B. Remove ".spamless" from address to reply.
ktchan
Hello
The Damascus steel is a bi-phase steel in modern terms. The steel had been
studied by MITS and once published in the Scientific America.
The principal is when the raw iron mixed with carbon and heated to the melting
temp. A crystal of iron-carbon and pure iron mix is formed. The metal is very
brittle of no normal use. Heat this metal to a temp not too high to change the
crystal status and hammer it. The hammering is like making bread. Elongate the
heated metal and fold many time. The soft iron will wrap around the elongated
iron-carbon crystal. The finished sword have to be quench into water. The secret
is the temperature of the metal and the water. In old times the best water used
is blood of animals, the temperature start with 32deg and cooling not too fast.
The quenching make the crystal very hard and the bitterness protected by soft
iron around. The iron-carbon is called Martesite a iron-carbon and pure iron
crystal mix. That is a high carbon content steel.
The most American car is made of these bi-phase high carbon steel. Cool rolled
and forging is the process.
A paper is by Oleg D. Serby and Jeffrey Wadsworth described how they rediscover
the Damascus steel The name is when the west people (Crusaders) found out the
small thin steel sword is much better then their big iron sward.
The Japanese is not the first one using these steel. The Indians and Chinese
have them all the time. Old stories tell how people make a good sword in
accident. The right temperature and time. Sometimes sacrifice of human make the
process like black magic.
An old art had became an industry process, like printing in color, now.
Regards
K.T.Chan
Uncle Al wrote:
> Rich Lemert wrote:
> >
> > Uncle Al wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael Reik wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > > can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
> > >
> > > Damascus steel or the Japanese version is an ultrahigh carbon steel
> > > which is worked at red heat, pounded until it is doubled in length or
> > > width, folded, and pounded again, etc., until thousands of brittle
> > > platey carbide and oxide ceramic microinclusions are aligned and
> > > dispersed within a relatively ductile steel matrix. The edge of the
> > > ground blade thus consists of untold ceramic microknives aligned and
> > > supported in the bulk metal, and is surpassingly sharp. The Japanese
> > > blade edge was further ceramicized.
> > >
> > [snip for brevity]
> > >
> > > Maraging steels, crucible steels, and oxide-pinned superalloys
> > > differentially tempered can match and exceed the strength of Damascus or
> > > samurai steel, but the latter's edge created by the ceramic inclusions
> > > is unique.
> > >
> > > Talk with a good knifemaker. Does Lovelace still practice the art in
> > > San Berdoo?
> > >
> >
> > There was an article in today's local paper about a Mr. Bob Kramer
> > in Seattle who just became one of only 67 Master Bladesmith's in the
> > United States. To reach this milestone, he had to:
> >
> > produce one knife that would slice through a thick, free-hanging rope
> > with a single swipe
> >
> > produce another blade that would hack through a 2X4
> >
> > produce yet another that could bend 90 degrees without breaking
> > or losing its edge
> >
> > craft of blade of Damascus steel
> >
Ralph Stewart
In article <34EA07...@swol.de>, Micha...@swol.de says...
>
>Hello,
>can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
>
office with a fellow that had one and remember a section on the metallurgy
of Damascus steel.
John Morriss
In article <34EA3D...@ix.netcom.com>,
Uncle Al <Uncl...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Damascus steel or the Japanese version is an ultrahigh carbon steel
>which is worked at red heat, pounded until it is doubled in length or
>width, folded, and pounded again, etc., until thousands of brittle
>The Japanese edges were exceptional. It was said that a blade held
>upright in the flow of a stream would cleave a floating leaf brushing
>past it. Alas, they were not stainless.
A video I saw on the Japanese process included a further metallurgical
trick. The multi-folded blade was shaped and then carefully painted with a
watery clay mix. Each layer was allowed to dry and another applied. The
trick was to coat each part of the blade with a precise and different
thickness of clay. The whole thing was heated, and then quenched. The clay
served to give each part of the blade its own ideal rate of cooling, for
its own ideal amount of annealling.
The standard joke is:
Samurai: [Swish]
Westerner: Ha, you missed!
Samurai: Missed, hell! Try nodding your head!
Uncle Al
Apprentice samurai, "SWISH!" The fly falls to the floor in two pieces.
Swaggering samurai, "SWISH! SWISH! " The fly falls to the floor in
four pieces.
Master samurai, "SWISH!" The fly continues on its way, never to
reproduce again.
--
eUncle Al Schwartz
Pearson Cresswell
Michael Reik wrote:
>
> Hello,
> can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
>
> Michael Reik
There were some good articles about this in the Journal of Metals about
10 years ago. They were part of a regular feature on early metallurgy
called 'Archeometallurgy' or something similar.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Pearson Cresswell . . . . . . . . . . pear...@melbpc.org.au
Microns to Measure - Particle Size Analysis
Melbourne, Australia
Phone & Fax: +61-3-9481 3451
-------------------------------------------------------------
Trevor Calder
A nice person called Michael Reik (who can be contacted at Micha...@swol.de)
told all the world the following....
>Hello,
>can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
First define 'Damascus steel'.
Do you mean Wootz steel?
.............................................................
Trevor Calder
tre...@iinet.net.au http://www.iinet.net.au/~trevor
"I'm not good at predicting, particularly not the future."
Ingrid Jakobsen, 1997.
Trevor Calder
A nice person called Uncle Al (who can be contacted at Uncl...@ix.netcom.com)
>Damascus steel or the Japanese version is an ultrahigh carbon steel
I'd want an idea what you mean by 'ultrahigh' - I certainly wouldn't want
a blade made of ultrahigh carbon steel - it'd break far too easily.
About 0.9% carbon for a knife, 0.7% for a sword is OK.
>which is worked at red heat, pounded until it is doubled in length or
>width, folded, and pounded again, etc., until thousands of brittle
>platey carbide and oxide ceramic microinclusions are aligned and
>dispersed within a relatively ductile steel matrix. The edge of the
>ground blade thus consists of untold ceramic microknives aligned and
>supported in the bulk metal, and is surpassingly sharp.
Well, reasonably sharp depending on how it was sharpened.
You seem to mean a forge welded type of steel.
The cutting abiltiy is caused by the serrations between the different
steels. Being of differing hardnesses, the steels are removed differently
during sharpening. This leaves an edge with sub-visible serrations.
>The Damascus version shows phase segregation and alignment as "Mohamet's
>Ladder."
Nothing to do with phase separation - everything to do with using different
steels. They take a polish differently, etch differently etc. That's what
causes the patterning.
>A good Damascus steel sword was said to cut through Crusaders'
>armor, and yet be flexible tip to hilt and spring back. European smiths
>working with smuggled precursor tried to work it too hot, and got
>nothing but slag for their efforts.
European smiths had been forge welding blades of differing steels for
a long time. Long before the Crusades.
>Crusaders' cutlery was abominable.
Wanna bet?
:-)
>Maraging steels, crucible steels, and oxide-pinned superalloys
>differentially tempered can match and exceed the strength of Damascus
>or samurai steel, but the latter's edge created by the ceramic inclusions
>is unique.
No it isn't. It's a bit of sharp steel. Nothing exciting about it.
Trevor Calder
A nice person called Rich Lemert (who can be contacted at RLe...@continet.com)
> There was an article in today's local paper about a Mr. Bob Kramer
>in Seattle who just became one of only 67 Master Bladesmith's in the
>United States. To reach this milestone, he had to:
>produce one knife that would slice through a thick, free-hanging rope
> with a single swipe
> produce another blade that would hack through a 2X4
> produce yet another that could bend 90 degrees without breaking
> or losing its edge
> craft of blade of Damascus steel
> make a copy of a Quillian dagger, an apparently intricate dagger
> of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries
There is nothing remarkable about any of this. I would guess there are
several thousand smiths in the US who could do it.
I know of at least half a dozen in my home city in Australia.
Trevor Calder
A nice person called Ralph Stewart (who can be contacted at ral...@sccoast.net)
>Find a copy of The Materials Handbook. I was lucky enuf to share an
>office with a fellow that had one and remember a section on the
>metallurgy
>of Damascus steel.
This may well be dealing with Wootz - which is often meant when the term
'damascus' is used.
--
Trevor Calder
A nice person called John Morriss (who can be contacted at
jmor...@gbc.gbrownc.on.ca) told all the world the following....
>A video I saw on the Japanese process included a further metallurgical
>trick. The multi-folded blade was shaped and then carefully painted with a
>watery clay mix. Each layer was allowed to dry and another applied. The
>trick was to coat each part of the blade with a precise and different
>thickness of clay. The whole thing was heated, and then quenched. The
>clay
>served to give each part of the blade its own ideal rate of cooling, for
>its own ideal amount of annealling.
This technique also induces stresses which aid in the edge hardening
process.
And it also has a part in making the blade curved too.
Rich Lemert
Trevor Calder wrote:
>
> A nice person called Rich Lemert (who can be contacted at RLe...@continet.com)
> told all the world the following....
>
> >in Seattle who just became one of only 67 Master Bladesmith's in the
> >United States. To reach this milestone, he had to:
> >produce one knife that would slice through a thick, free-hanging rope
> > with a single swipe
> > produce another blade that would hack through a 2X4
> > produce yet another that could bend 90 degrees without breaking
> > or losing its edge
> > craft of blade of Damascus steel
> > make a copy of a Quillian dagger, an apparently intricate dagger
> > of the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries
>
> There is nothing remarkable about any of this. I would guess there are
> several thousand smiths in the US who could do it.
>
> I know of at least half a dozen in my home city in Australia.
>
Then I would expect they would have no problem passing the tests to
become a Master Bladesmith. I expect to see the number of applications
for the test to increase substantially in the near future.
Rich Lemert
bmrtn
Trevor Calder wrote:
>
> A nice person called Michael Reik (who can be contacted at Micha...@swol.de)
> told all the world the following....
>
> >can you tell me something about making Damascus Steel ?
>
> First define 'Damascus steel'.
>
> Do you mean Wootz steel?
search engines are really neat. I found 163 references to Damscus Steel
using Altavista. There are even a couple for Wootz steel.
1) search engines are easy to use. I tend to ask here after
I exhaust other possibitities. Saves everyones time.
2) It is easy to answer a question with a question. A quick
search of would have turned up the same info I got. i tend
to skip posts that I can't answer. I always post the sites I got
the answer from if I got it through a search engine because it
helps
the questioner learn how to get information. Does anyone remember
how
long it took people to start to use the online thomas register?
3) i am glad there are questions like this every once and a while
because
I usually learn something
4) Somebody should do another bookmark post one of these days. I have
a nice file that is specific to my needs but I remember someone
posting a really
comprehensive list on one of the groups a while back. Maybe a
monthly
posting to the sci.*groups or something.
5) Sheesh! I am ranting.
from: http://chatlink.com/~prov4ge/Damascus.html
Damascus Steel is created by forge welding multiple layers of steels (or
steel and nickel or iron) into
a solid piece called a billet. This billet is then folded and rewelded
multiple times to produce the
desired number of layers in the billet. If the billet consists of 7
layers to start, folding once will
produce 14 layers. Folding again produces 28 layers. This process is
continued, each fold doubling
the number of layers, until completed.
Random pattern damascus is the first result of this process, in that no
pattern manipulation has taken
place. Patterns can be produced, however, by manipulating the steel
during the forge welding
process. A prime example of pattern manipulation is twist pattern,
created simply by twisting the
billet. More complex patterns are achievable through both pattern
manipulation and by contrasting
the alloy content of the various pieces of steel used to create the
billet.
An example of alloy contrast is the use of 1095 (a high carbon, simple
steel) and 203E (a low
carbon, high nickel steel). These two steels used in combination produce
a starkly contrasting light
and dark pattern. This contrasting combination can then be used to
create star pattern or any other
number of patterns through manipulation.
When the billet is finished and then formed into a blade it is acid
etched to reveal the pattern. Acid is
used only to reveal the pattern not to create the pattern. Do not
confuse this process with pattern
etched damascus, where acid is used to create, not reveal the pattern.
The pattern is revealed
through acid etching because different steels (or iron or nickel) etch
at different rates, thus revealing
the pattern created in the blade.
Arno Hahma
In article <6crvk4$nq$4...@news.iinet.net.au>, Trevor Calder <No> wrote:
>I'd want an idea what you mean by 'ultrahigh' - I certainly wouldn't want
>a blade made of ultrahigh carbon steel - it'd break far too easily.
>About 0.9% carbon for a knife, 0.7% for a sword is OK.
Ultrahigh carbon steel is steel with 1 to 2.5 % of carbon in it. Yes,
it is very brittle, if it is not treated properly. However, if you do
treat it properly, the strength can be about 20..25 % more than the
best, high alloy steels.
Heat treatment should be done in three steps. First normalize the steel
at 1100..1150 oC for 12..16 hours, cool slowly (10 oC /hour). This will
cause a coarse grain, continuous cementite network to form and convert
as much as possible from the carbon into iron carbide and distribute
the carbon evenly throughout the metal. As such, the steel is very
brittle and not usable. Next, reheat to 650..800 oC and roll or forge
up to 5..10 fold elongation (or more, if desired). This will reduce the
cementite network into a fibre-like structure in the roll direction,
but does not break the chemical carbide bonds (at least not much).
Overheating effectively destroys the steel and you will have to start
over.
The final step is hardening. The steel has to be heated only up to
730..750 oC and then quenched into brine. This low a hardening
temperature prevents cementite grains from growing while still
releasing some carbon into the lattice. The lesult is a very finely
grained, oriented structure steel, i.e. tough and hard. The steel won't
have a damasc pattern, but it is stronger than the "real" damascus
steels. If damasc pattern is desired, heat up to 1000 oC for a short
time, then air cool to 800 oC and quench. That will cause cementite
grains to grow here and there and a damasc pattern will appear.
However, the steel is not as strong as without the pattern.
>The cutting abiltiy is caused by the serrations between the different
>steels. Being of differing hardnesses, the steels are removed differently
>during sharpening. This leaves an edge with sub-visible serrations.
You can also achieve that with the above heat treatment. The damasc
pattern means you have an uneven distribution of carbide grains in the
blade. Grinding such a blade will also make a serrated edge, as the
carbide is harder than the surrounding metal.
The japanese blades and the Damascus blades are about equivalent in
their properties. The Japanese just did it the hard way, while the
Damascus smiths knew, how to get to the same result much easier. Both
methods produce a fine grained, oriented structure, which is tough but
still relatively hard.
>European smiths had been forge welding blades of differing steels for
>a long time. Long before the Crusades.
Yes, but they did not know how to treat high carbon steel. Europian
smiths used lower carbon steel, that could be forged at higher
temperatures. If you try to forge ultrahigh carbon steel at the usual
1000 oC temperature, it will crumble like cast iron.
>Trevor Calder
ArNO
2
Warren Lauzon
What does this discussion have to do with batteries??
--
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Electricity from the Sun
Arno Hahma wrote in message <6csp15$g...@antares.utu.fi>...