There is not much time left for life on this planet

[Popping Mad]

The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.

[Mario Petrinovic]

On 23.1.2022. 4:18, Popping Mad wrote:
> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.

There will be on some other part of the Universe (probably already it is).

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Pandora]

On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 22:18:55 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
wrote:

>The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.

Dramatic as it may sound "colliding" galaxies pass right through each
other:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap190325.html

Much more likely is that the habitability of the earth ends earlier
due to the evolution of the sun. For humans and other multicellulars
that may be as soon as ~1.3 billion years from now, for extremophiles
~2 billion years:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015JD023302

But extinction of the biosphere may be much faster because we humans
are fucking the planet:
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-strong-evidence-sixth-mass-extinction.html

As is to be expected on the basis of the principle of mediocrity and
the given
(1) that we are the first technological species to evolve on the Earth
and
(2) we are early in our technological evolution, our lifetime is ~500
years or less:
https://doi.org/10.1017/S1473550417000271

where a technological species is defined as "a biological species that
has developed electronic devices and has the capacity to significantly
affect their planetary environment. By this definition humans have
qualified for ~100 years."

[Mario Petrinovic]

On 23.1.2022. 12:37, Pandora wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 22:18:55 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
> wrote:
>
>> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
>
> Dramatic as it may sound "colliding" galaxies pass right through each
> other:
> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap190325.html

You didn't understand this bit. When galaxies collide they deform each
other completely, the gravity deforms. Nothing alive can survive this.

> Much more likely is that the habitability of the earth ends earlier
> due to the evolution of the sun. For humans and other multicellulars
> that may be as soon as ~1.3 billion years from now, for extremophiles
> ~2 billion years:
> https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2015JD023302
>
> But extinction of the biosphere may be much faster because we humans
> are fucking the planet:
> https://phys.org/news/2022-01-strong-evidence-sixth-mass-extinction.html
>
> As is to be expected on the basis of the principle of mediocrity and
> the given
> (1) that we are the first technological species to evolve on the Earth
> and
> (2) we are early in our technological evolution, our lifetime is ~500
> years or less:
> https://doi.org/10.1017/S1473550417000271
>
> where a technological species is defined as "a biological species that
> has developed electronic devices and has the capacity to significantly
> affect their planetary environment. By this definition humans have
> qualified for ~100 years."

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Pandora]

On Sun, 23 Jan 2022 15:23:13 +0100, Mario Petrinovic
<mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr> wrote:

>On 23.1.2022. 12:37, Pandora wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Jan 2022 22:18:55 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>>> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
>>
>> Dramatic as it may sound "colliding" galaxies pass right through each
>> other:
>> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap190325.html
>
> You didn't understand this bit. When galaxies collide they deform each
>other completely, the gravity deforms. Nothing alive can survive this.

Sure, there is gravitational interaction on a scale that deforms the
galaxies and seems quite dramatic from a distance:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap150201.html
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap180607.html

The Milky Way has probably had several of such collisions in the past
4.5 billion years, but "Stars within a galaxy are very sparsely
distributed, being separated by distances of the order of 10 light
years. In a scale model in which stars are represented by pinheads,
these would be about 50 km apart and the solar system (out to the
orbit of Pluto) would have a radius of 5m." (Rindler, 2006, p.350)
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/relativity-9780198567325

The chances of any two stars colliding during such a galaxy
"collision" are very small indeed and most of them will pass each
other undisturbed.

[Mario Petrinovic]

Ok, you may be right.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Mario Petrinovic]

Gee, it is so bitter admitting that you may be wrong, but it must be
done, lol.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[erik simpson]

Good job, Mario. Being wrong is something everybody does, admitting when it happens
is rarer. Galaxies get big from collisions, and while many are bigger than the Milky Way, it's
not a small galaxy. Other issues (some we've contributed to) will do us in sooner anyway.

[oot...@hot.ee]

On Sunday, 23 January 2022 at 05:20:02 UTC+2, Popping Mad wrote:
> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.

If our life survives another 4.5 billions years then it is likely advanced
farther above human than human is above amoeba.

[Mario Petrinovic]

Yes, but in what way do you think human is advanced more than amoeba?
Or, Corona virus, for example?

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Glenn]

You clearly don't even know what being wrong means.

[Trolidan7]

On 1/24/22 10:04 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 24.1.2022. 18:50, oot...@hot.ee wrote:
>> On Sunday, 23 January 2022 at 05:20:02 UTC+2, Popping Mad wrote:
>>> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>>> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
>>
>> If our life survives another 4.5 billions years then it is likely
>> advanced
>> farther above human than human is above amoeba.
>
>         Yes, but in what way do you think human is advanced more than
> amoeba? Or, Corona virus, for example?

It is lower in entropy.

[Mario Petrinovic]

Thanks.
Those things are pretty complicated, and for sure there are some other
characteristics involved, the word "advanced" in that sense doesn't mean
that the organism which has higher entropy is more "bullet proof", I guess.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Trolidous]

Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 24.1.2022. 22:20, Trolidan7 wrote:
>> On 1/24/22 10:04 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 24.1.2022. 18:50, oot...@hot.ee wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, 23 January 2022 at 05:20:02 UTC+2, Popping Mad wrote:
>>>>> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>>>>> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
>>>>
>>>> If our life survives another 4.5 billions years then it is likely
>>>> advanced
>>>> farther above human than human is above amoeba.
>>>
>>>          Yes, but in what way do you think human is advanced more
>>> than amoeba? Or, Corona virus, for example?
>>
>> It is lower in entropy.
>
>         Thanks.
>         Those things are pretty complicated, and for sure there are
> some other characteristics involved, the word "advanced" in that sense
> doesn't mean that the organism which has higher entropy is more "bullet
> proof", I guess.

Well, you know, if you 'flog a dead horse' you
can not necessarily kill it. That is because it
is already dead.

Now if you cremulate it's bones and ground the
horse into hamburger or make glue from it then
there is still some low entropy in the dead horse.
There may thus be nothing left to fossilize into
a rock formation simulating the bones of a horse

Carnivores themselves fundamentally obtain power
through the two forms of evil from which entropy
is increased. It is based upon 'conservation of
energy'. The nervous systems of carnivores often
at most think of killing other animals as a form
of play. It benefits them to not care when they
kill other animals because from such activities
they obtain energy from the other dead animals
to build and maintain their own body's activities.

Over all, however, there is a significant entropy
increase when plants or animals are killed.

This is based upon the statistical thermodynamic
or information theory definition of entropy. In
essence, entropy is defined in terms of a 'normalized
function' or in other words, the probability of a
state divided by all possible states.

In common terms:

high entropy = evil
low entropy = good

Under some circumstances, entropy can be reduced
through energy inputs.

Entropy is generally increased through conservation
of energy or through randomness.

This is basically statistical thermodynamics. The
heat flow formulations of thermodynamics are generally
simpler.

[Ruben Safir]

Mario Petrinovic <mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr> wrote:
> On 23.1.2022. 4:18, Popping Mad wrote:
>> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
>> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
>
> There will be on some other part of the Universe (probably already it is).
>

Not likely. People who believe there is likely life on other planets
misunderstnad how violent the universe is. The odds that a planet can
find a quiet corner in the universe to promote life over 4 billion years
is much longer odds than the total number of possible planets there are.

[oot...@hot.ee]

On Monday, 24 January 2022 at 20:04:21 UTC+2, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 24.1.2022. 18:50, oot...@hot.ee wrote:
> > On Sunday, 23 January 2022 at 05:20:02 UTC+2, Popping Mad wrote:
> >> The Andeomoda and Milkway collision is expected to happen within 4.5
> >> billion years, not much time on the scale of life on this planet.
> >
> > If our life survives another 4.5 billions years then it is likely advanced
> > farther above human than human is above amoeba.
>
> Yes, but in what way do you think human is advanced more than amoeba?
> Or, Corona virus, for example?

I meant in way of capability to perform different activities.

[Trolidous]

Maybe something like mankind could escape to Gliese 710.

It msy be only about .17 light years from the Sun about
1.3 million years in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gliese_710

[Popping Mad]

On 1/23/22 06:37, Pandora wrote:
> Dramatic as it may sound "colliding" galaxies pass right through each
> other:
> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap190325.html

No - it is not that simple. They don't pass through each other without
consequence.

[Popping Mad]

On 1/23/22 12:11, erik simpson wrote:
> The chances of any two stars colliding during such a galaxy
> "collision" are very small indeed and most of them will pass each
> other undisturbed.

but that is not the problem

[Popping Mad]

On 1/24/22 15:46, Glenn wrote:
>> Good job, Mario. Being wrong is something everybody does, admitting when it happens
>> is rarer. Galaxies get big from collisions, and while many are bigger than the Milky Way, it's
>> not a small galaxy. Other issues (some we've contributed to) will do us in sooner anyway.
> You clearly don't even know what being wrong means.

I've looks at a few recent models of the collision and there is no way
that life can survive this collision. There might have been previous
collision but not on this scale and not in the last billion years since
large scale multicelluar orangisms have developed.

Firs tof all, it will set off a chain of supernovas and that right there
is enough to destroy life on this planet.

[Popping Mad]

On 1/24/22 12:50, oot...@hot.ee wrote:
> If our life survives another 4.5 billions years then it is likely advanced
> farther above human than human is above amoeba.

no it won't. Life doesn't advance. It just evolves to changing conditions.

[Popping Mad]

On 1/23/22 06:37, Pandora wrote:

> But extinction of the biosphere may be much faster because we humans
> are fucking the planet:

No - we are a bigger threat to ourselves than the biosphere. We would
go excint before we neded all life on the planet.

[Mario Petrinovic]

Yes, I know how violent the Universe is. Yet, we have found ourselves
in a quieter part of the Universe. This is why I do think that another
life can be quite close to us. It looks like life can form pretty easy.
I mean, we have amino-acids on some moons in our own solar system.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Mario Petrinovic]

I have the same view. It doesn't have to be that simple, it can
advance somehow, yet, not enough, and the "advancement" definitely isn't
the (main) "force", we, generally, just adjust.
Though all this is pretty complicated. In any way, I don't think that
we will ever have enough of whatever-it-needs-to-be to survive.
The other thing is, it is nowhere written that we have to survive, it
is not us that is the center of the Universe, Universe doesn't exist
because of us.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Mario Petrinovic]

I mean, I am 60, I'll die soon, who cares? We all will "go extinct"
when we die, :) . The only one who cares is Pope, who just wants to have
a bigger herd of people who worship him, nothing else. Big deal.
Insignificant in the Universe, and significant only to Pope. It even
isn't significant to me, lol.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Pandora]

You don't think Earth is a violent place?

[Pandora]

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:33:02 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
wrote:

On the contrary, what you get is a burst of star formation, as can be
seen in the Antennae Galaxies:

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170428.html

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap201203.html

Ever so many opportunities for new solar systems with rocky planets in
the habitable zone.

[Ruben Safir]

Run the numbers yourself. You will get dozens of super novas and other
basts which will sterialize every life force in an entire sector.

This planet has beat astrnomical odds for being in such a docile state
and there is no way it will surive with life intact the merger of the 3
galexies.

> Ever so many opportunities for new solar systems with rocky planets in
> the habitable zone.

There is zero chance of there being any other planets like earth
NOW...anywhere... because the universe is rocked with violence.

One supernova would had ended life on earth. In fact, it might well had
been a supernova that supplied the solar system with enoughmaterial for
life to start here. Another would had ended it.

You can't just count stars and planets to determin the odds of life
developing. You need to account for space climate and the Solar system,
in that regard, is unique.

The Earth is about 4.3 billion years old and life has existed for about
3.4 billion of which it was only about half a billion since the Cambrian
explosion.

If during any time in the half billion years we had experienced an
common and routine happenstance in the local area, life would had
ended... flat out.

Just do the math on how many pulsars, black holes, super novas etc etc
etc happen and you will see that life is a huge long shot, and advanced
life even less so.

68 million years ago life was completely transformed by a minor meter
blow...

[Mario Petrinovic]

On 26.1.2022. 21:29, Ruben Safir wrote:
> 68 million years ago life was completely transformed by a minor meter
> blow...

Hm, it'll be extremely interesting if this event was re-dated. The
last time I checked it was 66 mya.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-e...@googlegroups.com

[Pandora]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 22:36:02 +0100, Mario Petrinovic
<mario.pe...@zg.htnet.hr> wrote:

>On 26.1.2022. 21:29, Ruben Safir wrote:
>> 68 million years ago life was completely transformed by a minor meter
>> blow...
>
> Hm, it'll be extremely interesting if this event was re-dated. The
>last time I checked it was 66 mya.

That's correct, see:
https://stratigraphy.org/chart

[Pandora]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 20:29:33 -0000 (UTC), Ruben Safir
<mrbr...@panix.com> wrote:

>Pandora <pan...@knoware.nl> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 21:33:02 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/24/22 15:46, Glenn wrote:
>>>>> Good job, Mario. Being wrong is something everybody does, admitting when it happens
>>>>> is rarer. Galaxies get big from collisions, and while many are bigger than the Milky Way, it's
>>>>> not a small galaxy. Other issues (some we've contributed to) will do us in sooner anyway.
>>>> You clearly don't even know what being wrong means.
>>>
>>>
>>>I've looks at a few recent models of the collision and there is no way
>>>that life can survive this collision. There might have been previous
>>>collision but not on this scale and not in the last billion years since
>>>large scale multicelluar orangisms have developed.
>>>
>>>Firs tof all, it will set off a chain of supernovas and that right there
>>>is enough to destroy life on this planet.
>>
>> On the contrary, what you get is a burst of star formation, as can be
>> seen in the Antennae Galaxies:
>>
>> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170428.html
>>
>> https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap201203.html
>>
>
>Run the numbers yourself. You will get dozens of super novas and other
>basts which will sterialize every life force in an entire sector.

There have been numerous supernovas in our galaxy within the 3.5 - 4
billion years of life on this planet, as witnessed by the many
supernova remnants. One observed as recently as 1054 at a mere 6500
light-years distance:
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap211224.html

Yet we're still here.

[rtr]

I don't think you comprehend how much time 4.5 billion years is.

--
Give them an inch and they will take a mile.
--
gemini://rtr.kalayaan.xyz

[Popping Mad]

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2021GL096376

it needs to be balanced...

[jillery]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 08:10:16 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>

An astronomy thread is SBP? Fascinating.

For those concerned about colliding stars during galactic collisions,
here's some factoids to assuage yourself:

<https://astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2006/01/how-close-can-stars-get-to-each-other-in-galaxy-cores#:~:text=The%20average%20stellar%20density%20here,5%20light%2Dyears%20between%20stars.>

<https://tinyurl.com/p2zcyhrc>
**************************************
The average stellar density here in the galactic disk is one star
every 19 cubic parsecs, or about 5 light-years between stars.
*************************************

Even in the Milky Way's more dense central core, stars are still
separated on average about 860 AU apart, over five times farther than
Voyager I has traveled beyond the Sun. So it's extremely unlikely any
stars collide during any galactic mergers.

And if stellar collisions worried you, there's still plenty to worry
about. The Milky Way and Andromeda are about the same mass. This
means when they merge, they will almost certainly tear apart their
spiral structures, fling many stars into intergalactic space, compress
their interstellar gas to create new stars, and eventually form one
elliptical galaxy, Milkdromeda. Here's a video of one plausible
simulation:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4disyKG7XtU>

And if that worries you, there's still plenty more to worry about. The
Large Magellanic Cloud is scheduled to merge with the Milky Way even
sooner, in less than 3 billion years. When it does, the two
supermassive black holes in the centers of each galaxy will merge and
form an active galactic nucleus aka quasar, which make supernovae look
like farts in a hurricane by comparison. Any nearby stellar systems,
or those caught in its twin polar jets, will be vaporized.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j7S2j4kbzo>

And if that worries you, I shouldn't mention the eventual expansion of
the Sun starting about a half-billion years from now, which will
definitely end any debate about global warming.

Sleep well.

[Pandora]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 22:08:29 -0500, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

By the time that happens we're well packaged:
<https://wwf.panda.org/wwf_news/press_releases/?4959466/Ocean-plastic-pollution-to-quadruple-by-2050-pushing-more-areas-to-exceed-ecologically-dangerous-threshold-of-microplastic-concentration>

[jillery]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 09:52:24 +0100, Pandora <pan...@knoware.nl>
wrote:

Perhaps all the microplastics animals ingest will help future
paleontologists precisely date fossils.

[Pandora]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 22:31:45 -0500, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Perhaps all the microplastics animals ingest will help future
>paleontologists precisely date fossils.

See Corcoran et al. (2014):
https://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/archive/24/6/article/i1052-5173-24-6-4.htm

[Trolidan7]

Watch out!

A galactic collision fragment may be less than 15 light years away!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapteyn%27s_Star

If the Wikipedia article is correct concerning
Omega Centauri and that it is not just a run of
the mill globular cluster but it is in fact the
remnant of a prior galactic collision and merger
then galactic collisions may not just be something
in the distant future.

[jillery]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:55:52 +0100, Pandora <pan...@knoware.nl>
wrote:

Great minds think alike.

[Pandora]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2022 09:29:55 -0500, jillery <69jp...@gmail.com>
wrote:

But is it planetary intelligence?

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-planet-mind.html

https://doi.org/10.1017/S147355042100029X

[Popping Mad]

On 2/10/22 22:08, jillery wrote:
> over five times farther than
> Voyager I has traveled beyond the Sun. So it's extremely unlikely any
> stars collide during any galactic mergers.

Voyerger is not a star

[jillery]

On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:09:51 -0500, Popping Mad <rai...@colition.gov>
wrote:

>Voyerger is not a star

That's ok, neither are you.

[Trolidous]

Gliese 710

.2 light years from Earth, only 1.2 million years
in the future. Is that 1.2 thousand or 1.2 years?
How easily can one be off by a word or a digit or an
order of magnitude, if you were to punch a calculator
or use a slide rule on the matter.

How easy it would be to get there if it were only .2
light years distant now instead of some time later.

So near and yet so far.

I guess there is that 'concept of limit' or approaching
something in calculus.

In astronomy you have almost (but perhaps not quite)
infinite amounts of distance interacting with almost
(but not quite) infinite amounts of time.

In geology it tends to be almost (but not quite)
infinite amounts of time only. Type the keys on
a calculator wrong and you can be way off.