On Monday, April 3, 2023 at 7:32:43 AM UTC-4, marc verhaegen wrote:
> Op zondag 2 april 2023 om 00:01:23 UTC+2 schreef JTEM:
> > > Our Pliocene ancestors lived in S-Asia (we, like all Asian primates, lack the African RV element of chimps, gorillas, baboons, African macaques etc.),
> > > IOW, human ancestors were not in Africa *al least* ~4–3 Ma (Benveniste cs 1976, Yohn cs 2005 PLoS):
How about a more extensive reference (title of paper, url if known)? Also, a reference to this RV
and in which chromosome of Pan it is found?
This is fairly strong evidence. You need to gather as much information as you
can in the scientific literature, and try to make a case for "Pliocene ancestors lived in Asia"
as you can. Nowadays molecular evidence trumps morphological (including fossil) evidence all the time.
For that reason, I am not asking you about the extensive quotes in your OP about fossils just yet.
Whether I do so in the future will depend on you posting precise citations (title, journal).
> > > australopiths are related to Gorilla (E-Africa) or Pan (S-Africa), not to Homo:
> > > they evolved in parallel gracile->robust:
> > > -- Gorilla afarensis->boisei,
> > > -- Pan africanus->robustus:
>
> > There's a lot of little pieces to this, but I think I'm just going to name three:
> > #1. The Ardi/Lucy-like teeth found in Germany and dating on the order of
> > 10 million years!
Why didn't you ask for a reference, Marc? Your response is on a totally different subject--
an especially blatant form of "going off on a tangent." You don't even show
any sign of having read #1.
> Miocene Hominoidea at least since 25 Ma followed the Tethys coasts + from there inland in forests along rivers/swamps/lakes...:
> - hylobatids (today gibbons+siamangs) -> SE.Asian cloastal forests,
> - "great apes" -> SW.Eurasian coastal forests, google "aquarboreal".
>
> When the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure c 15 Ma split the Ind.Ocean from the Medit.Sea:
> - pongids-sivapiths -> S.Asian coastal forests (forcing hylobatids higher into the trees?),
> - hominids -> Medit.coasts + islands, e.g. (google) Trachilos bipedal footprints.
>
> Medit.hominids died out (heat? drought? flood? cold? ...?) except those in the then incipient Red Sea:
> - Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift -> Afar etc.: Lucy etc. (google "Gondwanatalks Verhagen"),
> - when de Red Sea opened into the Gulf (Francesca mansfield thinks 5.33 Ma, caused by the Zanclean mega-flood?),
How about a reference to Francesca hypothesizing that? A good scientist
keeps records of who said what, where.
> --- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coastal forests ->
Pan IS there, but for the rest you get more and more dependent on your HYPOTHESIS
that Pan and Gorilla are descended from {Sahelanthropus and/or Ardipithecus and/or Australopithecus and/or Paranthropus}.
> southern Rift (// Gorilla in N-Rift) -> Transvaal -> Taung etc.
> --- Hom went left -> S.Asian coasts -> Java early-Pleist.H.erectus, google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo".
No fossil evidence before that Java child ca. 1.4 mya. And then there is the African, Homo habilis.
> > #2. The 3 to 4 million year old Retro Virus in African apes but not Asian
> > apes nor humans.
Well, duh, all extant hominids are believed to have diverged from Homo more than 4 million years ago.
Do the two of you argue otherwise?
What you wrote was much stronger, since you mentioned macaques. But what about other African
monkeys? Perhaps human ancestors had immunity to the RV, or perhaps it was fatal to them and not to chimp
or gorilla ancestors. Only the ones that didn't catch it survived to evolve into us, perhaps?
> Of course, JTEM: Pliocene Homo along S.Asian coasts!
Sheer speculation in the absence of fossils or tools or other artifacts.
In fact, you have no evidence that Homo existed before the Pleistocene, do you?
> > #3. The Chromosome 11 or "Nuclear DNA" insert preserving a mtDNA
> > line significantly older than any "Mitochondrial Eve" in the Out of Africa
> > purity model.
Mitochondrial Eve is Homo sapiens sapiens, a mere 200 kya.
> ?? I can't help you here. --marc
Indeed, it's not relevant to anything you said above, nor to your
"Out of Asia" hypothesis. By that time, even if Homo arose in Asia,
it might well have had members of Homo sapiens migrate to Africa.
By the way, have you ever posted the above statements in sci.anthropology.paleo?
What kind of responses did you get there?
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos