origins of flight

[jillery]

The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

[Dale]

statistical confidence?

--
Mystery? -> https://www.dalekelly.org/

[Daud Deden]

I guess just flapping-powered flight.

Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.

[jillery]

Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
required.

[Dale]

statistical assumption/confidence ?

[jillery]

I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.

[Dale]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference

as opposed to ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

???????

--
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[jillery]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2022 20:06:39 -0400, Dale <da...@dalekelly.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2022 12:34 AM, jillery wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 22:29:30 -0400, Dale <da...@dalekelly.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/30/2022 10:27 PM, jillery wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Oct 2022 17:41:25 -0700 (PDT), Daud Deden
>>>> <daud....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
>>>>>> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess just flapping-powered flight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Archae, bacteria, viruses, fungal spores, plant pollen have also taken to the skies, many long before the animal kingdom even got started. I've read that they initiate formation of precipitation in the sky, rather than dust.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, flight refers to powered flight. Anything small enough
>>>> automatically drifts in the breeze or parachutes down, no evolution
>>>> required.
>>>
>>> statistical assumption/confidence ?
>>
>>
>> I have no idea what the above statement is supposed to mean.
>
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_assumption
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_inference
>
>as opposed to ...
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)
>
>???????

Specify how your cites explain your statement.

[Dale]

I am just getting further into statistics, feel free to correct ...

"population" descriptions require statistical inference applied to a
"sampling"?

"sampling" alone cannot describe a "population"?

sometimes decisions have to be made?

otherwise I will reserve the opportunity to challenge descriptions

[jillery]

Feel free to take this opportunity to post a coherent challenge.

[Dale]

coherent

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coherent

[Peter Nyikos]

On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."

There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
Excerpt:
It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.

This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?


Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS here is a link to the 2015 article about Yi qi in NatureResearch:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings

[Daud Deden]

Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2

[Peter Nyikos]

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> > >
> > > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>
> > It's nowhere near as good as the YouTube videos you linked in the thread
> > you started on bipedalism, but rather than go into its deficiencies so
> > close to my weekend posting break, I just address your "at least four separate times."
> >
> > There has been a fifth candidate for the honor since 2015: *Yi qi*, a non-avian dinosaur.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)
> > Excerpt:
> > It was a small, possibly tree-dwelling (arboreal) animal. Like other scansoriopterygids, Yi possessed an unusual, elongated third finger, that appears to have helped to support a membranous gliding plane made of skin. The planes of Yi qi were also supported by a long, bony strut attached to the wrist. This modified wrist bone and membrane-based plane is unique among all known dinosaurs, and might have resulted in wings similar in appearance to those of bats.
> >
> > This webpage even shows two reconstructions of what its wings might have looked like.
> > It's not like any wings I've ever seen. What do you think of it?

<snip to get to your words, Daud>

> Yi qi has the shortest genus name and shortest species name of any dinosaur.
> This falconoid drone is a remarkably lifelike flapping flyer, with folding membrane wings. https://t.co/r7ulc2d1N2

Great catch, Daud! freezing the video at 1:02, when it was shown in slow motion (8x slow),
reveals a bat-like wing structure that belies the bird-like tail and bird-like general impression
when it is in full flight. It would take very little to modify it to resemble one of the Yi Qi reproductions,
keeping in mind that what looks like the last finger of Yi Qi is a "styliform element":

"Unlike all other known dinosaurs, a long, pointed wrist bone known as a "styliform element", exceeding both the third finger and the ulna in length, extended backward from the forelimb bones. This styliform, an adaptation to help support the membrane, may have been a newly evolved wrist bone, or a calcified rod of cartilage. It was slightly curved and tapered at its outer end.
...
The membrane stretched between the shorter fingers, the elongated third finger, the styliform bone, and possibly connected to the torso, though the inner part of the wing membrane was not preserved in the only known fossil.[1] This would have given the animal an appearance similar to modern bats, ... However, in bats, the membrane stretches between the fingers only, no styliform wrist bone being present."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_(dinosaur)

[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275669107_A_bizarre_Jurassic_maniraptoran_theropod_with_preserved_evidence_of_membranous_wings

The life restoration by Emily Willoughby in the Wikipedia article maximizes the batlike appearance
of the wings. It suggests a possible separation of the pollex ("thumb") from the rest of the wing, as in bats.
It replaces the first two flight digits in bats (which are quite close together) with the second digit,
which is much shorter than that in bats but still gives a nice membrane structure between it and the third
and last [2], highly elongated digit. Then the styliform bone makes up for the absence of one more distal digit.

[2] Like all theropods and birds, only three digits are present in fossils. In the above scheme,
the third wing digit of Yi Qi corresponds to the fourth in bats, and the styliform bone to the fifth in bats.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--

Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

[Daud Deden]

Thanks, bit by bit we get closer to what early flight was like. Perhaps it started as small treebranch climbers leapt between twigs (eg. monkeys, bush babies) or bridged between twigs (eg. hominoids, spider monkeys)?

[erik simpson]

Primates are in the process of evolving flight capability? Well, dinosaurs managed it, but the image of brachiating dinosaurs boggles the mind.

[Daud Deden]

:~}
Just you wait! We'll find them somewhere in Tibet!

[Daud Deden]

-
Manta ray butterfly bot flies fast or dextrously: https://techxplore.com/news/2022-11-butterfly-bot-fastest-soft-robot.html

[Daud Deden]

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:

Actually, a hoatzin chick climbing trees with wing claws, if the forest was twice as thick with lianas & canopy vegetation, might be selected against flight and towards brachiation with a few favorable mutations, reduced wing feathers, broader chest, alternative strokes, longer hook claws. Already bipedal, arboreal, frugivorous like gibbons, same tropical environment as spider monkeys, already warm-blooded. Not too much reengineering required?

[erik simpson]

Bipedality in mammals vs. dinosaurs evolved via very different paths and the resulting postures are not remotely similar.
Requesting a "few favorable mutations" to turn a hoatzin into something resembling a brachiating lesser ape doesn't
look parsimonious to me.

[Daud Deden]

Actually I think it will be very doable, in the genetic engineering sense, maybe in 25 years if the cause were to be well funded. Not that a brachiating hoatzin would look very gibbonish, but functionally I don't foresee much difficulty. Both gibbons and hoatzins are bipedal on branches with grasping feet, both already have curved appendages, both have generally similar facial features. Hoatzins have broader fields of vision, easily corrected.

[erik simpson]

Bipedalism is not synonymous with brachiation. "Similar facial features"?

[Daud Deden]

True, but hylobatids are arboreal bipeds and brachiators; chimps, gorillas & orangs are when weaned, young & active generally both arboreal bipeds & brachiators, though less predominantly so than hylobatids, when on the ground they can be bipedal but often go quadrupedal (often to prevent getting left behind by the group). Spider monkeys are pseudo-brachiators, they are generally quadrupedal except when carrying food bipedally.
Similar facial functional features in the basic bauplan, eyes, nose, mouth, ears. Unlike eg. moles with skin covered eyes.

[jillery]

Daud Deden is using the same argument in two separate topics. I give
him credit for consistency.

[Daud Deden]

It started with Pandora at SAP, just kind of drifted here.

[Daud Deden]

https://youtu.be/6uz_-_FE3UU short video of hoatzin using alternating wing/arm strokes to climb.

[Peter Nyikos]

This is a twofer. First comes a direct reply to Daud's post immediately below,
then a reply to a post by Daud on another thread:

The following started in SBP, and I hope you find it relevant here:

Re: Today's News on Pterosaur Origins

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:49:07 AM UTC-5, daud....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 10:23:40 PM UTC-5, peter2...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Fortunately, the following link opens a new door to the development of flight in some pterosaurs:
> >
> > Current Biology, VOLUME 31, ISSUE 11, P2429-2436.E7, JUNE 07, 2021:
> > "A new darwinopteran pterosaur reveals arborealism and an opposed thumb"
> > https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00369-9?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982221003699%3Fshowall%3Dtrue
> > Excerpt:
> > "The new species exhibits the oldest record of palmar (or true) opposition of the pollex, which is unprecedented for pterosaurs and represents a sophisticated adaptation related to arboreal locomotion. Principal-coordinate analyses suggest an arboreal lifestyle for the new species but not for other closely related species from the same locality, implying a possible case of ecological niche partitioning. The discovery adds to the known array of pterosaur adaptations and the history of arborealism in vertebrates. It also adds to the impressive early bloom of arboreal communities in the Jurassic of China, shedding light on the history of forest environments."
> >
> > IIRC you showed interest in several of these themes earlier. It's a detailed research paper, open access.
> > The critter has been named *Kunpengopterus.* The genus has been known since 2010, but this paper
> > is about a new species, *K. antipollicatus*. [As you will immediately recognize, this refers to the true opposability of the "thumb".]


> Really amazing how much can be found out about these animals and their ecologies. The reversed thumbs show that grasping fully evolved, allowing not just compressional perching but tensional perching in forest canopy's stiff lateral winds. In hominoids, slow brachiation required long strong opposed thumbs, while fast brachiation did not, as hook-like hands predominate where fast swinging is advantageous, as in gibbons & spider monkeys.

How would you like to -- as jillery might put it -- expand this comment to
the same argument on a third separate topic?

If not, I'll pick up the discussion on the original thread later this week.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--

Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

[Daud Deden]

I don't understand your request.

[JTEM]

69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

I dunno. Doesn't seem very informative.

Personally, I had always held that powered flight was a selective
adaptation for living creatures being swept up by the wind.

So, insects: They're small, they get blown around... this is very useful...
helps them to spread... radiate... but powered flight is a way for them
to continue that advantageous activity even when there's no wind. And
when there is wind, powered flight is a very useful means to prevent
you from being dropped in the middle of a lake or out to sea...

So, yeah, the cursorial model, says I.

My biggest question about pterosaurs is where are the flightless species
and what did they have for genitalia?

Questions. My biggest questions (plural) are where are the flightless
species and what did they have for genitals...





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/679818106282098688

[Peter Nyikos]

Never mind about that for now. I'd like for you to look at the latest post
I did on the thread, "Re: So Is Archaeopteryx a Real Bird After All?" today:

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/4bG1D7uLcT0/m/NBHEpZx2AgAJ

__________ excerpt, with John Harshman going first and me replying___________

> I will note that at least some specimens of Archaeopteryx have what look like
> flight feathers on the rear legs, though less prominently so than in
> Microraptor.

"flight feathers" indicates a very noticeable lack of symmetry, making these feathers
into miniature airfoils. AFAIK this need not indicate powered flight.
It would seem that they would be at least as good for gliding.
Would you agree, John?

I'd also like to hear from Daud Deden on this. We've talked a lot about
the difference between gliding and powered flight in the last two months or so.

================== end of excerpt =========================


Hope to see you there, Daud.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics

Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

[Peter Nyikos]

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 4:22:27 PM UTC-5, JTEM wrote:
> 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The following is a link to a 20-minute "Real Science" video which
> > discusses how flight evolved at least four separate times on Earth:
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZaZAH2WHAY>

> I dunno. Doesn't seem very informative.

I don't think any sci.bio.paleontology regular would find it very informative.

The "jillery" is not an s.b.p. regular by any means, nor is Dale.
They were most recently brought to s.b.p. by the latest downtime of Beagle,
the talk.origins robo-moderator, like insects blown to a new location by the wind:

> Personally, I had always held that powered flight was a selective
> adaptation for living creatures being swept up by the wind.
>
> So, insects: They're small, they get blown around... this is very useful...
> helps them to spread... radiate... but powered flight is a way for them
> to continue that advantageous activity even when there's no wind.

That is considerably enhanced by the small flaps believed to have been
on the thoraxes and abdomens of the earliest insects. One hypothesis is
that those flaps were originally for thermoregulation, and some
of the thoracic ones became exapted for powered flight.

The abdominal ones may have continued to help, like the
leg feathers of Archaeopteryx as detailed in the reply to Dauden
that I did about an hour ago to this thread.

> when there is wind, powered flight is a very useful means to prevent
> you from being dropped in the middle of a lake or out to sea...
>
> So, yeah, the cursorial model, says I.

Not sure how you narrow things down like this.
How is running supposed to enhance the process we've described?

>
> My biggest question about pterosaurs is where are the flightless species
> and what did they have for genitalia?

No fossils are known for flightless species of pterosaurs. But it's easy
to *imagine* a gradualistic evolution of their wings that is no worse
than neutral, natural-selection-wise. It's much harder for feathers
or bat wings.

> Questions. My biggest questions (plural) are where are the flightless
> species and what did they have for genitals...

I suppose the second question is motivated by your awareness of
the dirty-mindedness of "jillery" and his/her sneering at the
supposed "prudery" of people who point out this character trait
without indulging in it themselves.

Like a polemical prostitute, 'e worked the opposite side
of the street when three people commented on the 69's
in the jillery address 69jpil69 "at" gmail.com, claiming that
this was all in their dirty minds. There followed the unverifiable
allegation that 1969 was the year "jillery" graduated from high school.

Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--

University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

PS In case you are wondering, you have posted to sci.bio.paleontology
often enough, with perhaps a majority of posts with substantial
paleontological or evolutionary content, to be counted a regular here.

[Daud Deden]

Then there's "beakiation" among parrots.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/parrots-move-branches-beakiation-animals-physics
Atelid spider monkeys use their prehensile tail during their pseudo-brachiation across branches, parrots use their beaks. Hoatzins could be bred for that as well, to assist forelimb arboreal locomotion.

[erik simpson]

Is this a joke? Hoatzins don't "brachiate" like gibbons because they
don't have to. Why would anyone try to breed some that could? Why not
a breeding program (well-funded, of course) to breed humans with
prehensile noses? After all, they work well for elephants. I don't see
any difficulty in principle, except perhaps finding people who would
cooperate.

[John Harshman]

You might be able to interest hereditary priests of Ganesh.

[erik simpson]

I hadn't thought of that - I'll log in to GoFundMe right away.

[Daud Deden]

Hoatzins fly rather than brachiate, but they eat foliage, often along forested rivers.
Hummingbirds fly among thick foliage seeking flower nectar, being small they can do so quickly and easily.
Hoatzins being larger need more aerial space to fly around, along open rivers.
Their metabolic needs and digestive systems may have prevented them from getting smaller.
An alternative to shrinking body size for better/faster access to food is to develop alternative locomotion methods.
Primates generally do not locomote between branches via brachiation, hominoids being exceptional, with smaller gibbons able to swing from thin twigs which are hard to leap from/onto and hard to walk quadrupedally above branch. If the New World Monkeys had not arrived in South America, Hoatzins would only compete with slow sloths for foliage in the forest canopy, (and perhaps some others which I don't know).
Either way, hoatzins hanging in suspension or brachiation would have some advantages in food getting.
Of course, my message is that humans could genetically produce brachiating birds within a short time, because some have alternating front limbs. And a fast brachiating cassowary would be incredibly cool to watch at the zoo.

[Popping Mad]

On 2/1/24 12:35, erik simpson wrote:
> On 2/1/24 7:17 AM, Daud Deden wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:57:44 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:
>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:14:48 PM UTC-5, erik simpson wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:56:20 AM UTC-8,
>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:32:58 AM UTC-5, erik simpson
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 4:01:58 AM UTC-8,
>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 12:58:18 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 4:52:56 PM UTC-5,
>>>>>>>> daud....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 10:45:36 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>>> peter2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, October 30, 2022 at 4:35:20 PM UTC-4,

Why answer a 2 year old thread.

[Daud Deden]

Monkey & parrot symbiosis
https://x.com/AMAZlNGNATURE/status/1757814956722889141?s=20

[erik simpson]

That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
monkey how to fly.

[Popping Mad]

On 2/14/24 17:43, erik simpson wrote:
> That's definitely a cute video, but I doubt the macaw will teach the
> monkey how to fly.

They share 92% of their DNA ...

You should see Wicked.