Animal antibiotics/anthrax
Greatest Prime
feed accomplishes. From what I have been able to discover, anthrax is around
almost anywhere animals are kept. Do the antibiotics serve the purpose of
preventing anthrax? Are animal vaccines against anthrax used anymore? What
does that mean in terms of anthrax acquiring immunity to anthrax and other
pathogenic bacteria?
A pointer to an appropriate web page would be welcome
Bill
Gordon Couger
"Greatest Prime" <Fish...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:B809D14D.25B0%Fish...@mediaone.net...
Adding antibiotics to feed has nothing to do with anthrax at all. If you
want to prevent anthrax you vaccinate for it.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
news:J11F7.347$xJ5.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Adding antibiotics to feed has nothing to do with anthrax at all. If you
> want to prevent anthrax you vaccinate for it.
>
>
> Gordon
>
In the UK, if any bovine dies suddenly and in unexplained circumstances it
is automatically tested for anthrax. Just part of the routine precautions.
In the regulations, if anthrax is detected the carcass has to be burned
using prescribed amounts of high quality coal. (From memory 30cwt welsh
steam coal with veterinary inspector having the power to keep adding 10cwt
at a time if he isn't satisfied with the result.)
However I have never heard of anyone in the UK vaccinating for anthrax
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
news:9s5r5u$b6p$5...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> news:J11F7.347$xJ5.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> > Adding antibiotics to feed has nothing to do with anthrax at all. If you
> > want to prevent anthrax you vaccinate for it.
> >
> >
> > Gordon
> >
>
> In the UK, if any bovine dies suddenly and in unexplained circumstances it
> is automatically tested for anthrax. Just part of the routine precautions.
> In the regulations, if anthrax is detected the carcass has to be burned
> using prescribed amounts of high quality coal. (From memory 30cwt welsh
> steam coal with veterinary inspector having the power to keep adding 10cwt
> at a time if he isn't satisfied with the result.)
> However I have never heard of anyone in the UK vaccinating for anthrax
>
owner to dispose of them as he sees fit. A vet is usualy called if the death
is unusual or if there are several unexplained. In the west on the range
where there aren't many people they are usually left where they fall or
dragged off out of site it no disease is suspected other wise they are
buried or burned, Burning being preferred. We normally use diesel or napalm.
Where I ran cattle that were assumed healthy when they died went to dog
farms.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> > In the UK, if any bovine dies suddenly and in unexplained circumstances
it
> > is automatically tested for anthrax. Just part of the routine
precautions.
> > In the regulations, if anthrax is detected the carcass has to be burned
> > using prescribed amounts of high quality coal. (From memory 30cwt welsh
> > steam coal with veterinary inspector having the power to keep adding
10cwt
> > at a time if he isn't satisfied with the result.)
> > However I have never heard of anyone in the UK vaccinating for anthrax
> >
> In the US there are no rules for testing of dead cattle. It is up to the
> owner to dispose of them as he sees fit. A vet is usualy called if the
death
> is unusual or if there are several unexplained. In the west on the range
> where there aren't many people they are usually left where they fall or
> dragged off out of site it no disease is suspected other wise they are
> buried or burned, Burning being preferred. We normally use diesel or
napalm.
>
> Where I ran cattle that were assumed healthy when they died went to dog
> farms.
>
I've never heard of any having to be burned. Prior to OTMS they would go for
knacker meat where they were processed, pet food, gelatine, blood and bone
meal. Virtually 100% recycling. Very efficient, very environmentally
friendly.
Now everything that dies aged over 30 months in incinerated.
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> Gordon
>
>
Greatest Prime
gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net wrote on 11/5/01 1:46 PM:
On one ranch, where I have fished a lot, an animal would be lost now an then
to lighning, especially along barbed wire fences. Cause of deat there would
be pretty obvious.
Pasteur determined that burial alone for anthrax was not effective.
Earthworms would bring up the spores.
Bill
Gordon Couger
cost less and there is less chance of contamination by spore forming
bacteria such as anthrax, black leg and such. They just buried 12 cattle
that died from anthrax near San Jose California. Of course they buried them
before the diagnosis was done and it would be difficult to burn them in that
highly populated an area. That's right at the south end of Silicone Valley.
--
Gordon
Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger
Jim Webster
> On one ranch, where I have fished a lot, an animal would be lost now an
then
> to lighning, especially along barbed wire fences. Cause of deat there
would
> be pretty obvious.
standard clause on any UK farmers insurance, you get paid out on animals
killed by lightening. Interestingly enough while the cause of death may be
obvious, the visual symptoms can apparently be faked. Some of the old boys
could do it using a candle. You just have to be careful to brush any wax
off. I've never seen any killed this way so cannot help with describing the
fake in any further detail.
>
> Pasteur determined that burial alone for anthrax was not effective.
> Earthworms would bring up the spores.
>
that is why we have always had to burn them I suspect. The regulations are
old enough to go back that far.
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> Bill
>
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
better way to dispose of the animal any time. It
> cost less and there is less chance of contamination by spore forming
> bacteria such as anthrax, black leg and such. They just buried 12 cattle
> that died from anthrax near San Jose California. Of course they buried
them
> before the diagnosis was done and it would be difficult to burn them in
that
> highly populated an area. That's right at the south end of Silicone
Valley.
> --
if you think burning 12 is difficult in a highly populated area, try burning
a couple of million in the UK :-(((
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> news:XZIF7.825$I07.1...@newsfeed.slurp.net...> You right burning is a
much
> better way to dispose of the animal any time. It
> > cost less and there is less chance of contamination by spore forming
> > bacteria such as anthrax, black leg and such. They just buried 12 cattle
> > that died from anthrax near San Jose California. Of course they buried
> them
> > before the diagnosis was done and it would be difficult to burn them in
> that
> > highly populated an area. That's right at the south end of Silicone
> Valley.
> > --
>
> if you think burning 12 is difficult in a highly populated area, try
burning
> a couple of million in the UK :-(((
>
reportedly will burn up a cow in an hour. The UK is not California you still
have some concept of reality. There are parts of California that make the
greenest folk in the EU look absolutely conservative and were that happened
is just down the road from them.
I sure hope your hoof and mouth out break is over before winter sets in.
It really doesn't make much difference if you bury them or not. Anthrax is
particularly everywhere in the west. If you get it down a few feet it is not
any worse than the ground around it. I think that was the sixth outbreak of
anthrax in north America this year. Every dry year we have several. The same
is true in every arid and simi-arid area in the world. I think you have it
pretty well under control in the UK and the EU it is a lot easier to control
where there is not a lot of dust. Koch discovered the whole concept of
microbial disease from anthrax in 1876 and Pasture the vaccine ten years
later and pretty well got anthrax under control in his lifetime in your part
of the world.
Gordon
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> Greatest Prime <Fish...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:B80C711E.2777%Fish...@mediaone.net...
>
> > On one ranch, where I have fished a lot, an animal would be lost now an
> then
> > to lighning, especially along barbed wire fences. Cause of deat there
> would
> > be pretty obvious.
>
> standard clause on any UK farmers insurance, you get paid out on animals
> killed by lightening. Interestingly enough while the cause of death may be
> obvious, the visual symptoms can apparently be faked. Some of the old boys
> could do it using a candle. You just have to be careful to brush any wax
> off. I've never seen any killed this way so cannot help with describing
the
> fake in any further detail.
>
> >
> > Pasteur determined that burial alone for anthrax was not effective.
> > Earthworms would bring up the spores.
> >
> that is why we have always had to burn them I suspect. The regulations are
> old enough to go back that far.
>
unknown reasons.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> > if you think burning 12 is difficult in a highly populated area, try
> burning
> > a couple of million in the UK :-(((
> >
> Particularly when you did it with wood and coal and not napalm that
> reportedly will burn up a cow in an hour.
you wouldn't believe the way they screwed up at times. Burning with Sea coal
at one point, because it's cheap. Pity it doesn't burn too well.
The UK is not California you still
> have some concept of reality. There are parts of California that make the
> greenest folk in the EU look absolutely conservative and were that
happened
> is just down the road from them.
I'll take your word for it that your loonies are worse than our loonies.
However I'd match mr Natural who posts to uk.environment against sad little
chivey any time. Mind you I've finally put both on the banned senders list
so am not bothered with them anymore.
>
> I sure hope your hoof and mouth out break is over before winter sets in.
no cases since Sept 30th, but they are still blood testing sheep and
slaughtering those with antibodies. I don't think anyone will be happy until
all sheep have been checked.
>
> It really doesn't make much difference if you bury them or not. Anthrax is
> particularly everywhere in the west. If you get it down a few feet it is
not
> any worse than the ground around it. I think that was the sixth outbreak
of
> anthrax in north America this year. Every dry year we have several. The
same
> is true in every arid and simi-arid area in the world. I think you have it
> pretty well under control in the UK and the EU it is a lot easier to
control
> where there is not a lot of dust. Koch discovered the whole concept of
> microbial disease from anthrax in 1876 and Pasture the vaccine ten years
> later and pretty well got anthrax under control in his lifetime in your
part
> of the world.
>
I honestly don't know the figures for anthrax in the UK. Obviously it is a
potential problem, but not one we come across. I just how a word with our
vet and she cannot remember a case in the UK.
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> Gordon
>
>
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> news:4YNF7.26$2f.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > > if you think burning 12 is difficult in a highly populated area, try
> > burning
> > > a couple of million in the UK :-(((
> > >
> > Particularly when you did it with wood and coal and not napalm that
> > reportedly will burn up a cow in an hour.
>
> you wouldn't believe the way they screwed up at times. Burning with Sea
coal
> at one point, because it's cheap. Pity it doesn't burn too well.
The excicution of the plan was very poor. Not being able to get aniamal
killed on time was really bad and not realizing that they were way behind
the curve in the spread of the disease was a big problem. It has been a wake
up call for us. My wife works in the Vet Med library here at OKstate and FMD
literature has been a big item as everyone studies up on current methods.
Even 40 years ago when I was taking Animal Science we spent a lot of time on
the methods of disease contorl with then hoof and mouth disease being the
main topic.
I don't know if we would have done any better than you did had we got it
first. We will know.
>
> The UK is not California you still
> > have some concept of reality. There are parts of California that make
the
> > greenest folk in the EU look absolutely conservative and were that
> happened
> > is just down the road from them.
>
> I'll take your word for it that your loonies are worse than our loonies.
> However I'd match mr Natural who posts to uk.environment against sad
little
> chivey any time. Mind you I've finally put both on the banned senders list
> so am not bothered with them anymore.
Chivey is not all that unreasonable compared to some of the nuts and fruits
in California. The city council in Berkley, Ca. passed some resolution that
denounced the anti terror efforts of the US goverment and businesses are
canceling meeting in Berkely right and left. Political correctness is in
danger.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
>
> "Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
> news:9s8kvk$6ml$2...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> > news:4YNF7.26$2f.2...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > > > if you think burning 12 is difficult in a highly populated area, try
> > > burning
> > > > a couple of million in the UK :-(((
> > > >
> > > Particularly when you did it with wood and coal and not napalm that
> > > reportedly will burn up a cow in an hour.
> >
> > you wouldn't believe the way they screwed up at times. Burning with Sea
> coal
> > at one point, because it's cheap. Pity it doesn't burn too well.
> =============
> The excicution of the plan was very poor.
the suspicion is that there wasn't really a plan
Not being able to get aniamal
> killed on time was really bad and not realizing that they were way behind
> the curve in the spread of the disease was a big problem. It has been a
wake
> up call for us. My wife works in the Vet Med library here at OKstate and
FMD
> literature has been a big item as everyone studies up on current methods.
> Even 40 years ago when I was taking Animal Science we spent a lot of time
on
> the methods of disease contorl with then hoof and mouth disease being the
> main topic.
I think the eye was very much taken off the ball on this one. The state
veterinary service was run down way past what was safe, they never bothered
looking at the Northumberland report from the 67 outbreak which was very
well put together. Then there was an awful lot of silly money saving. Things
like the treasury refused to let MAFF call in the army because MAFF didn't
have the money available in its departmental budget.
Then they tried to hire vets, offering to pay them less than the vet would
have to pay a locum.
>
> I don't know if we would have done any better than you did had we got it
> first. We will know.
>
The biggest problem is making politicians take it seriously and ensuring you
have the infrastructure up and running capable of dealing with it.
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
They did the first part on the cheap and the got raped on the clean up.
Letting politititons run anything of importance almost assures failure.
Their concern is with public preciption not with getting the job done. It
looks like that our polititions got down to business for about a month after
9-11 but the cracks are starting to show again.
>
> >
> > I don't know if we would have done any better than you did had we got it
> > first. We will know.
> >
>
> The biggest problem is making politicians take it seriously and ensuring
you
> have the infrastructure up and running capable of dealing with it.
Fortunately we still take our animal health programs pretty serious. We are
just getting Bang's wiped out after 50 years but there are still pockets in
wildlife that cause political problems and TB pops up here and there.
It also helps that the majority of our states are ag states and the senate
has two senators per state. It give use country folks some clout. I don't
know if the framers of the constitution planed it that way or just got lucky
but it has worked well to balance things out. Of course our two party system
works by shooting three foot in front of the duck and three foot behind the
duck and then claim on the average they killed the duck and that keeps them
from doing a lot of damage. Your system can develop a coalition that can get
something done on occasion. Not being able to effect much change in our
government has some advantages. There is something to be said for stability
even if it is grid lock. Is was getting nervous when we had republicans in
both houses and the president.
The laws that set up the land grant universities, USDA and agriculture
experiment stations have served us very well by setting up a solid base of
professionals for politicians to turn to for information. Compare how they
work to the way the EPA works using data that they have to do internal peer
review on because it won't stand the light of day.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> They did the first part on the cheap and the got raped on the clean up.
> Letting politititons run anything of importance almost assures failure.
> Their concern is with public preciption not with getting the job done. It
> looks like that our polititions got down to business for about a month
after
> 9-11 but the cracks are starting to show again.
even the talk of being screwed over the clean up turns out to be spin and
eye wash. The politicians claimed that they were being taken for £100,000 a
time. However when the figures were checked this was a survey which was
basically of a handful of large dairy farms including the one from Newton
Rigg college of agriculture. When the figures for Cumbria were checked the
ministry have to admit that the average for Cumbria was nearer £23,000.
A lot of the problem with cost was of the governments own making. Generally
where farmers did it themselves it was a lot cheaper than where contractors
had to be called in. One example of this is where the underside of the roof
had to be cleaned off. The farmer would merely climb into the tractor loader
bucket and have his wife drive the tractor slowly backward and forward.
You have a contractor, the health and safety executive insist that he hire
in scaffolding and have properly trained scaffolding erectors work on it
because these people are employees.
Another example happened to a friend of mine. A temporary dirty water
collection tank was needed before they could wash half of the steading. This
would have cost the ministry £7000 for a temporary tank. He pointed out that
there was a site suitable for putting in permanent pit, three of the walls
were already there, and it wouldn't cost more than £3,000 to £4,000. However
they explained that they couldn't do that because he was not allowed to gain
by the work. Hence while it would have only cost them £4000, saving the tax
payer £3,000, they would then have had to smash the pit out after use,
disinfect the rubble and pay to have it hauled away and tipped in landfil.
This would have meant a further £5,000 so the whole process was going to be
more expensive. They were willing to spend £4000 of tax payers money extra,
just to ensure he didn't make anything.
we have a problem is that while we can get things done, it can be that the
authorities don't know what they are going. Then when bad bills are in the
offing most opposition has to come from outside parliament. The current
Animal Health bill is a classic example of this.
Dennis G.
>> > Pasteur determined that burial alone for anthrax was not effective.
>> > Earthworms would bring up the spores.
>> >
>> that is why we have always had to burn them I suspect. The regulations are
>> old enough to go back that far.
>>
>Burning is the only reasonable way of getting rid of livestock that died of
>unknown reasons.
>
>Gordon
>
Read a piece in the Vancouver Province business section describing a
new company that collects carcasses and turns fat to biodiesel and
finds buyers for rest of it too. Total processing system unknown to
me.
I memorized the URL but that was over 10 hours ago and my long term
memory is shot !!
Dennis
Oz
>Read a piece in the Vancouver Province business section describing a
>new company that collects carcasses and turns fat to biodiesel and
>finds buyers for rest of it too. Total processing system unknown to
>me.
That's just a modernised knacker and renderer.
--
Oz
This post is worth precisely what you paid for it.
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
I expect that the whole operation would have worked better if they had hired
as many farmers as they could find to do as much of the work in the entire
operation that they could.
In some of the culls of the 50's the farmers did the killing and burning
with official over sight.
>
> Another example happened to a friend of mine. A temporary dirty water
> collection tank was needed before they could wash half of the steading.
This
> would have cost the ministry £7000 for a temporary tank. He pointed out
that
> there was a site suitable for putting in permanent pit, three of the walls
> were already there, and it wouldn't cost more than £3,000 to £4,000.
However
> they explained that they couldn't do that because he was not allowed to
gain
> by the work. Hence while it would have only cost them £4000, saving the
tax
> payer £3,000, they would then have had to smash the pit out after use,
> disinfect the rubble and pay to have it hauled away and tipped in landfil.
> This would have meant a further £5,000 so the whole process was going to
be
> more expensive. They were willing to spend £4000 of tax payers money
extra,
> just to ensure he didn't make anything.
>
> we have a problem is that while we can get things done, it can be that the
> authorities don't know what they are going. Then when bad bills are in the
> offing most opposition has to come from outside parliament. The current
> Animal Health bill is a classic example of this.
>
I like our dead locked government better all the time.
Gordon
Gordon Couger
"Dennis G." <deg...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:3be8dfbe...@news.telus.net...
on Goggle for "animal fat" diesel bring up over 1,200 hits.
Animal fat would take some processing to get to a usable product or need to
be mixed with a lot of regular diesel.
Jim Webster
Oz <O...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Y0j7UpAb...@upthorpe.demon.co.uk...
> Dennis G. writes
>
> >Read a piece in the Vancouver Province business section describing a
> >new company that collects carcasses and turns fat to biodiesel and
> >finds buyers for rest of it too. Total processing system unknown to
> >me.
>
> That's just a modernised knacker and renderer.
in the Sunday Telegraph (from memory, about the only paper I've seen in the
last couple of weeks) there was a piece about a UK company doing the same
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
>
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> I expect that the whole operation would have worked better if they had
hired
> as many farmers as they could find to do as much of the work in the entire
> operation that they could.
>
> In some of the culls of the 50's the farmers did the killing and burning
> with official over sight.
to an extent this did happen. However there literally are not enough farmers
left. Trading Standards (which is local authority controlled not central
government controlled) has taken over responsibility for movement licences
and they have been very good. They have also been hiring farmers wives and
daughters as fast as they can.
Similarly in South Cumbria, by and large the vets in charge were local vets,
although technically they were government officers, and the slaughter teams
were put together from local slaughtermen. A friend of mine who was shot out
actually knew between half andthree quarters of the slaughter team, it was
composed of Artificial inseminators (who obviously had no work) auction mart
drovers, as well as slaughtermen.
However there just aren't the number of people about who can do this. In one
case MAFF opened fire on a herd of limis in the field and stampeded them
across 9 other farms, all of whom then had to be shot out. There is no
reserve of people with any knowledge of cattle handling left in the country.
Our local auction mart became a collection centre where sheep going for
slaughter for human consumption could be batched up to make up full loads.
Collection centre staff could not live on farms (due to risk of spreading
infection). By the time the auction mart had its staff together the foreman
was 78, his number two was a babe in arms at 67 and they had one lad helping
them who is a farmers nephew and has worked as a drover since he left home.
They literaly couldn't find other people who could be relied upon to work
sheep, even in a lairage.
there is an awful lot to be said in favor of it, believe me.
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> Gordon
>
>
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
processing to get to a usable product or need to
> be mixed with a lot of regular diesel.
from memory again, I think they were contemplating mixing it with biodiesel
from OSR
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> --
Oz
>Animal fat would take some processing to get to a usable product or need to
>be mixed with a lot of regular diesel.
Shouldn't be hard to crack it in the usual way, I would have thought.
Dennis G.
>Gordon Couger writes
>
>>Animal fat would take some processing to get to a usable product or need to
>>be mixed with a lot of regular diesel.
>
>Shouldn't be hard to crack it in the usual way, I would have thought.
>
>--
>Oz
Sure be worthwhile if it makes diesel fumes smell like roast beef!
Dennis
John Gentile
Kind of the way coal was used to make fuel - even gasoline.
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
I find it hard to realize that you were killing stock in what we would call
suburbs. The scale of what I know of as a farm and what is a farm to you are
so different that I don't realize some of the serious logistical problems
involved with killing a herd of cattle there. You have an extremely limit
firing angle and not a lot of people experience at shooting at moving
animals while where I am we can position ourselves so no houses are in the
field of fire and have a half dozen riflemen that can kill a running jack
rabbit at 100 yards doing the shooting and not worry about shooting at a
running animal. Or shoot them from a helicopter, plane or truck. So if some
break and run each man can drop at least 4 or 5 before they get out of
range. At least in much the western part of the country. I know from
experience I can get 5 dogs that are trying to down one cow.
I am surprised that they didn't use portable corrals were the fences weren't
strong enough to container the stock. A stampede is a very bad out come.
I realize that MAFF was behind the curve for a long time and the fellows in
the feild were doing the best they could with what they had and it was a
very difficult situation with out any real organized management until the
army took over. It is a shame that the concern for cost ended up being so
expensive. It is not like there weren't ample historic examples on the best
way to handle FMD outbreaks.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
>
> I find it hard to realize that you were killing stock in what we would
call
> suburbs.
most UK farming takes place in what Americans would regard as "city limits"
Even the peak district national park which is pretty rough hill sheep
country, has an estimated 40 million people within an hours drive.
The scale of what I know of as a farm and what is a farm to you are
> so different that I don't realize some of the serious logistical problems
> involved with killing a herd of cattle there. You have an extremely limit
> firing angle and not a lot of people experience at shooting at moving
> animals while where I am we can position ourselves so no houses are in the
> field of fire and have a half dozen riflemen that can kill a running jack
> rabbit at 100 yards doing the shooting and not worry about shooting at a
> running animal. Or shoot them from a helicopter, plane or truck. So if
some
> break and run each man can drop at least 4 or 5 before they get out of
> range. At least in much the western part of the country. I know from
> experience I can get 5 dogs that are trying to down one cow.
the problem was too many John Waynes and not enough cowboys. Everyone wanted
to play with the guns but no one knows anything about livestock.
>
> I am surprised that they didn't use portable corrals were the fences
weren't
> strong enough to container the stock. A stampede is a very bad out come.
>
probably don't have them. There are portable sheep pens available but very
little for handling cattle. Most had to be done with on farm resources.
> I realize that MAFF was behind the curve for a long time and the fellows
in
> the feild were doing the best they could with what they had and it was a
> very difficult situation with out any real organized management until the
> army took over.
even the army ran into problems. I know one case personally where he had
sixty hill cows with their calves. They had to be fetched down from the fell
and slaughtered. He was ill, had collapsed. The army were thinking of
deploying an entire battalion as drovers to try and fetch them down.
Eventually when he heard was was being planned he got out of bed, took a bag
of cake and his dog and fetched them back down from the fell into the yard
before collapsing again. If strangers had tried to move them, we'd all have
got one, they would have still been running.
It is a shame that the concern for cost ended up being so
> expensive. It is not like there weren't ample historic examples on the
best
> way to handle FMD outbreaks.
The northumberland report from our 68 outbreak is widely recognised as an
excellent document going into almost anally retentive detail (saying things
like 3 captive bolt killers per slaughterman because they can overheat and
jam etc) yet it wasn't even looked at. The BBC got hold of a copy and had a
happy week embarassing ministers with questions on it which they obviously
hadn't a clue about.
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
We say they are all hat and no cattle or drug store cowboys.
Going in and working someone eles stock is not easy. I pride myself in being
smarter than a cow. But one time a neighbor had a couple get out on me and I
called him and he said he would come git them and I said I would just get
them up with mine and call him. I tried every trick I knew and finaly had to
call him to come get them and he unloaded two horses and made a trip around
the quarter at full gallop and put them in the pen first time. I never
though about working cattle that rough.
It's bad when you write the book on how to do it and don't read the book.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> >
> It's bad when you write the book on how to do it and don't read the book.
>
it is difficult to comprehend the level of ignorance.
The civil service rotates staff at high levels throughthe ministries. This
means that the senior civil servants in MAFF, whilst competant
administrators, hadn't the slightest understanding of the industry they were
administrating (the situation is even worse under defra as many have come
from environment) and had to rely on lower grades who had come up through
the ministry. However those who know tend to be out in the regions because
they live there, those who move to london are likely to be "fast tracked"
and end up in other ministries..
Hence those in charge probably never even knew the book had been written.
Oz
>
>Hence those in charge probably never even knew the book had been written.
>
And probably cared even less.
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> news:KLYG7.101$8H.9...@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > >
> > It's bad when you write the book on how to do it and don't read the
book.
> >
>
> it is difficult to comprehend the level of ignorance.
>
> The civil service rotates staff at high levels throughthe ministries. This
> means that the senior civil servants in MAFF, whilst competant
> administrators, hadn't the slightest understanding of the industry they
were
> administrating (the situation is even worse under defra as many have come
> from environment) and had to rely on lower grades who had come up through
> the ministry. However those who know tend to be out in the regions because
> they live there, those who move to london are likely to be "fast tracked"
> and end up in other ministries..
>
> Hence those in charge probably never even knew the book had been written.
>
day to day operation of public health? No wonder they screwed up so bad.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> You don't have a professional civil service that is on going to handle the
> day to day operation of public health? No wonder they screwed up so bad.
fmd wasn't considered public health. Indeed agriculture isn't really
considered public health either. They have created the "Food Standards
Agency" which is supposed to monitor the entire food chain,but it totally
kept out of anything to do with fmd.
remember we have a government that regards agriculture as totally irrelevant
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> news:79fJ7.20$Kn2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > You don't have a professional civil service that is on going to handle
the
> > day to day operation of public health? No wonder they screwed up so bad.
>
> fmd wasn't considered public health. Indeed agriculture isn't really
> considered public health either. They have created the "Food Standards
> Agency" which is supposed to monitor the entire food chain,but it totally
> kept out of anything to do with fmd.
>
> remember we have a government that regards agriculture as totally
irrelevant
>
count to 11 if there is a hole in their pocket.
I guess that technically FMD wouldn't fall under public health here either
but our public health system depends on a lot of veterinarians and the USDA
has a strong professional presence in animal health with men make it a life
time career. There is a lot of cooperation between the worker bees between
public health and animal health. I don't know what happens at the top but I
except politics could get in the way. But generally the little guys manage
to get the job done anyway if it really needs to be done.
Gordon
In smaller culls our culls have worked well when they needed to. The courts
got involved in some of the BSE culls but they were probably not needed
since they were culling sheep. I hope we never have to find out how things
work in a big one.
Our public health system has almost as many veterinarians in it as MD's.
Particularly in epidemiology and parisitiology they are nearly all vets.
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
>
> "Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
> news:9t44nf$acp$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
> > news:79fJ7.20$Kn2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> > > You don't have a professional civil service that is on going to handle
> the
> > > day to day operation of public health? No wonder they screwed up so
bad.
> >
> > fmd wasn't considered public health. Indeed agriculture isn't really
> > considered public health either. They have created the "Food Standards
> > Agency" which is supposed to monitor the entire food chain,but it
totally
> > kept out of anything to do with fmd.
> >
> > remember we have a government that regards agriculture as totally
> irrelevant
> >
> The biggest business in your country is irrelevant? I guess that they can
> count to 11 if there is a hole in their pocket.
>
considered irrelevant. In fact manufacturing is regarded as a bit infradig.
One interesting thing that came out with fmd was that we export a third of
lamb produced. We export it to other EU states, so no one can claim it is a
massively subsidised product dumped onto the third world. Rather than it
being regarded as an industry getting off its butt and getting its act
together, it was regarded as somehow all so unnecessary.
Currently our pig industry is sinking to a level at which it may soon no
longer be viable, and the trade gap in food production is rising. From
memory it has got up to about £10 billion or is predicted to. This is not
regarded as important at all.
At the moment we have a strong pound and the euro is weak so food imports
are cheap. I bet they howl when the pound does, inevitably, fall
It seems that the population of the UK are expected to survive on service
industries, providing financial services, and taking in each others washing.
> I guess that technically FMD wouldn't fall under public health here either
> but our public health system depends on a lot of veterinarians and the
USDA
> has a strong professional presence in animal health with men make it a
life
> time career. There is a lot of cooperation between the worker bees between
> public health and animal health. I don't know what happens at the top but
I
> except politics could get in the way. But generally the little guys manage
> to get the job done anyway if it really needs to be done.
>
At local government level "environmental health officers" do have a wider
remit but they have lost powers to national government bodies, the "Meat
hygiene service" and "the food standards agency".
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
<COUGER>
> > The biggest business in your country is irrelevant? I guess that they
can
> > count to 11 if there is a hole in their pocket.
> >
>
> considered irrelevant. In fact manufacturing is regarded as a bit
infradig.
> One interesting thing that came out with fmd was that we export a third of
> lamb produced. We export it to other EU states, so no one can claim it is
a
> massively subsidised product dumped onto the third world. Rather than it
> being regarded as an industry getting off its butt and getting its act
> together, it was regarded as somehow all so unnecessary.
> Currently our pig industry is sinking to a level at which it may soon no
> longer be viable, and the trade gap in food production is rising. From
> memory it has got up to about £10 billion or is predicted to. This is not
> regarded as important at all.
> At the moment we have a strong pound and the euro is weak so food imports
> are cheap. I bet they howl when the pound does, inevitably, fall
Paying farm subsidy not to produce and importing food. That makes lots of
sense I sure like it. It's good for me.
>
> It seems that the population of the UK are expected to survive on service
> industries, providing financial services, and taking in each others
washing.
Where I come from service is what a bull does to a cow.
>
> > I guess that technically FMD wouldn't fall under public health here
either
> > but our public health system depends on a lot of veterinarians and the
> USDA
> > has a strong professional presence in animal health with men make it a
> life
> > time career. There is a lot of cooperation between the worker bees
between
> > public health and animal health. I don't know what happens at the top
but
> I
> > except politics could get in the way. But generally the little guys
manage
> > to get the job done anyway if it really needs to be done.
> >
>
> At local government level "environmental health officers" do have a wider
> remit but they have lost powers to national government bodies, the "Meat
> hygiene service" and "the food standards agency".
>
aren't perfect by a bunch but they are professional and pretty soundly based
in science and don't react too much to political pressure. They did ban
feeding MBM to ruminants and I question that has any basis in science for
our beef industry. We never had the amplification mechanism in MBM that you
do did. Almost all our protein is vegetable based for beef cattle because of
soybean and cotton seed meal both being toxic to humans without processing
makes it an ideal feed for cattle. But the panic of vCJD made it seem the
wise to eliminate MBM no matter how low the risk.
State and local control is mainly inspection for hygiene and clean
facilities. The local health officers do have considerable power but they
seldom exercise it.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
UK government wants to cut subsidy, it is just that UK is out of phase with
EU. Basically EU are wanting to shift subsidy from production to
environment, UK government wants to shift it from agriculture to the
Treasury.
> >
> > It seems that the population of the UK are expected to survive on
service
> > industries, providing financial services, and taking in each others
> washing.
> ===============
> Where I come from service is what a bull does to a cow.
That too (or its human equivilent) is doubtless something that is to be
encouraged in the new britain
we have managed to get the worst of all possible worlds. The local authority
system was inconsistant, however the Meat Hygiene Service set the national
system up as a cash cow for them. Just as an example, a slaughterhouse paid
per hour, not per head of throughput. So the big companies never noticed the
charge and the little firms went bust over night. Other classic examples
were that the slaughter house paid the travelling time. There are cases
where the guy has forgotten something and had to go back to collect it, or
gone to the wrong place before arriving at the right one, but it doesn't
matter, the slaughterhouse has to pay for his time
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
> Gordon
>
>
Gordon Couger
"Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
>
> UK government wants to cut subsidy, it is just that UK is out of phase
with
> EU. Basically EU are wanting to shift subsidy from production to
> environment, UK government wants to shift it from agriculture to the
> Treasury.
>
They don't realizes all the folks that make money off the farmer? So they
will shut down the fertilizer, chemical, seed, machinery and local business
that you support? Well GB is a good customer.
Gordon
Jim Webster
Gordon Couger <gco...@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote in message
>
> "Jim Webster" <j...@everyone.knows.where.by.now> wrote in message
> >
>
> > UK government wants to cut subsidy, it is just that UK is out of phase
> with
> > EU. Basically EU are wanting to shift subsidy from production to
> > environment, UK government wants to shift it from agriculture to the
> > Treasury.
> >
> They don't realizes all the folks that make money off the farmer? So they
> will shut down the fertilizer, chemical, seed, machinery and local
business
> that you support? Well GB is a good customer.
already fertiliser production in UK has fallen, much could now be based on
mainland Europe. Apparently some of the companies are giving it to spring
before whether deciding to shut the plant or not. Not only that but there
are a lot of jobs in food processing which will disappear along with the
farms that produce the food.
When little Tony Blair jets around the world "sorting out afghanistan"
remember that this is the same person who "took personal charge of fmd" and
then disappeared abroad on holiday for about two to three months.
Under the new bill he has introduced to ammend our animal health regulations
after the lessons learned from fmd the Minister will be able to order the
destruction of any animals, whether they are infected, infectious, or not.
They don't even have to be susceptable. Hence he could order the distruction
of horses. You will be compensated but if you try to keep them off your land
then they cannot do the risk assessment and you will get less compensation.
You can of course appeal against this. The appeal takes place after the
death of the animals in question, and before you can have your appeal you
have to pay a deposit (the size of which the minister will decide) and if
you win, you get your money back.
All I can say is tell George W to watch his back with friends like this
around.