Hypothetical question -- Butter and Bacteria
Radium
Lets say a stick of unsalted, annato-free, purely-natural, organic,
cow-milk butter is placed in an small box free of air, oxidants, and
any other agents that could cause rancidity. In addition, lets also say
that this box is free of all living organisms, excluding non-acidic
anaerobic bacteria [and that the box does not let in any microbes or
small creatures excluding non-acidic anaerobic bacteria]. Finally, lets
say that the temperature in the box is around 94 degress F.
What will happen to the stick of butter in about a month? What will the
butter smell like? Will the butter change color? Will the butter smell
like cheese? What chemical changes will the butter undergo?
Thanks,
Radium
Herman Family
"Radium" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1143001077.4...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
If you did all that, the only reactions that would occur are between some of
the components of the milk or butter. If we assume that there are no inter
reactive components of in the milk or butter, then at the end of a few
months you would have fresh milk or butter.
Michael
Salmon Egg
1143001077.4...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Radium"
<gluc...@excite.com> wrote:
While not exactly the same experiment, Pasteur carried out a similar one
using animal broth well over a century ago.
Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
Lesley Robertson
Lesley Robertson
N10
"Lesley Robertson" <l.a.ro...@tnw.tudelft.nl> wrote in message
news:d37a4$44211553$82a1f636$12...@news1.tudelft.nl...
What are "non acidic" anaerobic bacteria ? genus ?
n10
rac...@hotmail.com
Salmon Egg wrote:
> >
> While not exactly the same experiment, Pasteur carried out a similar one
> using animal broth well over a century ago.
>
> Bill
> -- Ferme le Bush
Proportedly, you can go there and see the experiment still in process.
Those vessels are still germ-free and non-putrefied. Which is more
than we can say for Louis Pasteur himself right about now. Set up your
butter experiment and make your own memory immortal.
Lesley Robertson
<rac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143023951....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
century and are still clear (and thus presumably not growing - I'm not
opening them to confirm it.
Lesley Robertson
http://www.beijerinck.bt.tudelft.nl
Radium
Lesley Robertson wrote:
> Is this an exam question?
No, it is a question of my personal interest
Radium
N10 wrote:
> What are "non acidic" anaerobic bacteria ? genus ?
I am sure that there are a lot.
What I do know is that aceti- and lacto- bacteria do produce acid and
therefore are "acidic".
Radium
Herman Family wrote:
> If you did all that, the only reactions that would occur are between some of
> the components of the milk or butter. If we assume that there are no inter
> reactive components of in the milk or butter, then at the end of a few
> months you would have fresh milk or butter.
Um, what about indole, skatole, aldehydes, butanedione, diacetyl, etc.??
Marvin
http://webexhibits.org/butter/history-canned.html is relevant.
Radium
> Google "canned butter". You can make it, or buy it.
>
> http://webexhibits.org/butter/history-canned.html is relevant.
Thanks for the link. However, what does canned-butter have to do with
bacterial decay of butter? I look at the link. Nothing about bacteria.
But thanks anyway.
mrda...@gmail.com
You don't mention whether the ingredients used to make the butter were
sterilized.
Radium
> You don't mention whether the ingredients used to make the butter were
> sterilized.
Somehow -- in my hypothetical scenario -- all parts are completely
sterilized until the butter is made. The butter is initially sterile.
However, the stick of butter [when placed in the "box"] is somehow made
vulnerable to all anaerobic bacteria but "invincible" to all other
microbes. This stick of butter has all the milk solids [e.g. minerals,
milk-proteins] completely removed. Other than that it is pure natural
organic butter. This stick of butter is also -- by some magic --
invincible to rancidity and any damage other than bacterial spoilage.
Any and all acids/acidic-substances resulting from bacterial-decay are
instantly -- by magic -- removed from the butter.
Given the above. What would the butter smell like in a week? Would it
stink like rotten cheese?
Radium
I wonder what the stick of butterfat would look/smell like when
bacterial decay reaches 50%.
What about 100%?
mrda...@gmail.com
Why not give it a shot with a small pat of butter? Sterilize the bowl
first of course...
A week probably wouldn't do much, unless it's really warm...
Why is this so important to you...?
Radium
What about 96 Fahrenhiet for a month?
> Why is this so important to you...?
Because once I was in India, someone was cooking stale butter. The
whole house stunk like rotten cheese!! It had the smell of cheese,
feet, neck-sweat, dirty-sweaty-clothes. That type of sickening cheesy
odor. Very strong. Its like cheese that has been aged for a LONG time.
Much like Romano cheese. Very disgusting.
It made be curious...
Radium
Radium wrote:
> Because once I was in India, someone was cooking stale butter. The
> whole house stunk like rotten cheese!! It had the smell of cheese,
> feet, neck-sweat, dirty-sweaty-clothes. That type of sickening cheesy
> odor. Very strong. Its like cheese that has been aged for a LONG time.
> Much like Romano cheese. Very disgusting.
>
> It made be curious...
I thought this stink must be due to bacteria causing the butter to rot.
John Gentile
Parmalot (spelling?) was sold as a room temp sterilized milk in
cartons. The US Army tried it for a while to avoid refrigeration to go
along with the combat MREs. The milk was sterilized by radiation and
had a long shelf life.
--
John Gentile, MS M(ASCP)
Laboratory Information Manager
Providence, VAMC
Herman Family
ok, you've changed scenarios. If there are bacteria in the butter, and they
have the materials they need to survive, they will start to decay the
butter.
Now, it you start with regular butter, and remove all the milk solids then
you basically have.... nothing left.
This particular nothing would in one week smell like... nothing.
As you have then removed all of the decay products from the sinesolid
butter, it would smell like..... nothing
Michael
Salmon Egg
1143085621.5...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "mrda...@gmail.com"
<mrda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Given the above. What would the butter smell like in a week? Would it
>> stink like rotten cheese?
>
>
> Why not give it a shot with a small pat of butter? Sterilize the bowl
> first of course...
>
> A week probably wouldn't do much, unless it's really warm...
>
> Why is this so important to you...?
>
Nuke it with enough radiation to kill all cellular microbes.
Enrico C
<news:2006032223050316807%yjgent@coxnet> on
sci.bio.food-science,sci.chem,sci.bio.microbiology :
> Parmalot (spelling?)
I guess you mean "Parmalat". Parma is the Italian town where the
company is located, also famous for Parma ham and Parmesan cheese, and
"latte" is Italian for "milk".
X'Posted to: sci.bio.food-science,sci.chem,sci.bio.microbiology
--
Enrico C
* cut the ending "cut-togli.invalid" string when replying by email *
Dan Harring
At 40 deg F for a month, it would not deteriorate much. But at 94 deg
F after a month, I'd be afraid to look.
Physically - at 94 deg F, the stick of butter would probably melt and
the water would separate from the fat. (US butter is 80% fat, 20%
water, approximately.)
Chemically - if it was only triglycerides and cholesterol, not much
would happen. But the butter already contains a mix of other things,
including free radicals, lipid oxidation products, lipid peroxides,
other breakdown products and impurities, aldehydes and ketones
(saturated and unsaturated), free fatty acids, diketones such as
2,3-butanedione (diacetyl), phenolics, sulfides, some isoprenoids, etc.
Polymerization could proceed slowly, leading to darkening and texture
change. The small but visible amount of carotenes will slowly degrade
and lose color. Trace amounts of pro-oxidants are present (e.g. iron
and maybe some copper), and even if the package is flushed with
nitrogen to remove most oxygen in the headspace, there will still be
some dissolved oxygen in the product. Other sources of oxygen may
arise as well. Phospholipids in the fat globule membrane are
susceptible to oxidation. Lipid oxidation can lead to production of
further reaction products. The unsaturated compounds are more of a
problem than the saturated compounds.
Microbiologically - I don't know enough to comment about the 'excluding
non-acidic anaerobic bacteria' part. IIRC, one of the few spoilage
organisms that can live in high fat products like butter is a
Penicillium species (mold) which produces ketones, mainly 2-alkanones,
causing sort of a "painty" odor, along with free fatty acids. Even if
all the microbes originally present are pasteurized/killed, some of
their enzymes are heat resistant and can still do their work. For
example, lipolysis (and even proteolysis has been seen in butter and
ultra-pasteurized dairy products).
There's a great review article in the journal Food Microbiology that
covers the safety of margarine and what kind of microbes can grow in it
(yeast, mold, Pseudomonas and other bacteria).
http://foodmicro.foodsci.cornell.edu/fmlab/labpeople/batt/margarine.pdf
There are similar reviews in the literature for butter but they aren't
available free on the web. Hope that helps. dh
Marvin
Marvin
temperature, and the containers are sterilized just before
they are filled. A description of the process is at
http://cr.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=39796&KEYWORD=packaging
Richard Mateles
suspended in the fat, and this would allow plenty of microbial reactions to
take place. At the end of a month, I would expect the butter to stink!
Incidentally, salt is added to butter to inhibit microbial growth in the
water phase as well as for taste reasons.
Rich Mateles
"Radium" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1143001077.4...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Radium
Richard Mateles wrote:
> The butter itself is not sterile. There is a small amount of water
> suspended in the fat, and this would allow plenty of microbial reactions to
> take place. At the end of a month, I would expect the butter to stink!
Would the stench be due to any non-acidic compounds released by the
anaerobic bacteria?
Mxsmanic
> Lets say a stick of unsalted, annato-free, purely-natural, organic,
> cow-milk butter is placed in an small box free of air, oxidants, and
> any other agents that could cause rancidity. In addition, lets also say
> that this box is free of all living organisms, excluding non-acidic
> anaerobic bacteria [and that the box does not let in any microbes or
> small creatures excluding non-acidic anaerobic bacteria]. Finally, lets
> say that the temperature in the box is around 94 degress F.
>
> What will happen to the stick of butter in about a month? What will the
> butter smell like? Will the butter change color? Will the butter smell
> like cheese? What chemical changes will the butter undergo?
Virtually none. If the butter and its container are sterile and
sealed, the butter will survive indefinitely without significant
change--meaning years, centuries, etc.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
Mxsmanic
> I think not. The milk is flash-pasteurized at a high
> temperature, and the containers are sterilized just before
> they are filled. A description of the process is at
> http://cr.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=39796&KEYWORD=packaging
One need not be that exotic; even ordinary UHT milk has a shelf life
of many months. And even after the container is opened, it lasts a
lot longer than ordinary milk (unpasteurized or pasteurized at lower
temperatures).
Enrico C
<news:ud562290bag49prgs...@4ax.com> on
sci.bio.food-science,sci.chem,sci.bio.microbiology :
> Marvin writes:
>
>> I think not. The milk is flash-pasteurized at a high
>> temperature, and the containers are sterilized just before
>> they are filled. A description of the process is at
>> http://cr.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=39796&KEYWORD=packaging
>
> One need not be that exotic; even ordinary UHT milk has a shelf life
> of many months.
I gather that the shelf life for UHT milk is 3 months, and 6 months
for sterilized milk.
> And even after the container is opened, it lasts a
> lot longer than ordinary milk (unpasteurized or pasteurized at lower
> temperatures).
Are you sure? My experience is that all types of milk last no longer
than 2-3 days, after the container is opened.
Radium
Mxsmanic wrote:
> Virtually none. If the butter and its container are sterile and
> sealed, the butter will survive indefinitely without significant
> change--meaning years, centuries, etc.
The butter is only sterile at the beginning. But anaerobic bacteria are
allowed to enter the box of butter and putrefy the greasy substances.
In a month, will butter stink like rotten cheese? Would any non-acidic
compounds be responsible for this stench?
I am guessing that indole, skatole, aldehydes, acetoin, butanedione and
diacetyl are some of the non-acidic, malodorous substances that would
result from anaerobic bacteria contaminating the butter.
Arcie Mizelle
"Radium" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
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Arcie Mizelle
statement, so you can't have bacteria...
"Radium" <gluc...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1143061978.0...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Radium
Arcie Mizelle wrote:
> Again, you took the bacteria out of the equation in your "let's suppose"
> statement, so you can't have bacteria...
No I didn't.
Radium
Arcie Mizelle wrote:
> You took all that out....
How so?
Mxsmanic
> I gather that the shelf life for UHT milk is 3 months, and 6 months
> for sterilized milk.
I've seen six-month expiration dates for UHT, but it seems that the
expiration dates are more conservative now. Sterilized milk has an
open-ended shelf life ... if it is really sterile.
> Are you sure? My experience is that all types of milk last no longer
> than 2-3 days, after the container is opened.
Yes, I'm sure, as I keep milk much longer than that in the
refrigerator. The refrigerator has to be cold, though--not the
lukewarm temperature that most people set.
Mxsmanic
> > Virtually none. If the butter and its container are sterile and
> > sealed, the butter will survive indefinitely without significant
> > change--meaning years, centuries, etc.
>
> The butter is only sterile at the beginning. But anaerobic bacteria are
> allowed to enter the box of butter and putrefy the greasy substances.
I said if the container is sealed. Something that allows bacteria to
enter is not sealed.
Radium
Mxsmanic wrote:
> I said if the container is sealed. Something that allows bacteria to
> enter is not sealed.
Sorry. In my magical type of situation, the box does not let in
anything foreign microbes other than anaerobic bacteria. Also, the pH
of the butter is [for some mircalous reason] at least 7 both before,
during and after bacterial decompositon.
In addition, in my hypothetical case, the only type of degradation that
can affect the butter is bacterial decay. Finally, any acids and acidic
substances produced by the bacteria are somehow removed out of the box
are transferred to remote location. So in the end, all you get is [at
least I think] stinky non-acidic butter. This stinky butter stinks like
rotten cheese. An extremely disgusting odor similar to that of grossly
over-ripened cheese, dirty socks, sweaty feet, humid toes etc.
luc...@sbcglobal.net
>
> Because once I was in India, someone was cooking stale butter. The
> whole house stunk like rotten cheese!! It had the smell of cheese,
> feet, neck-sweat, dirty-sweaty-clothes. That type of sickening cheesy
> odor. Very strong. Its like cheese that has been aged for a LONG time.
> Much like Romano cheese. Very disgusting.
>
> It made be curious...
>
>
I believe the smell you're describing is butyric acid, the etymology of its
name coming from butter, maybe isobutyric acid. Normally fats contain long
(~C18) fatty acids, so I'm not sure how a C4 like butyric acid fat came to
be associated with butter. I was going to guess that the C4 acid arises
from various allylic oxidative processes (direct air oxidation or bacterial
metabolism) that cleave unsaturated C18 chains that happen to have a double
bond 4 or 5 carbons from the end of the chain. However, Googling turns up
sites that say that C4 fatty acids are indeed a unique part of ruminant milk
fat, and that they are released when triglycerides that contain the C4
butyrate esters are hydrolyzed by hydrolase enzymes, or by an uncatalyzed
reaction in very, very old butter. I think the answer to your question is
that you will get the smell of butyric acid with enough time and/or heat
(short of evaporating all the water, that is) even if you have no biota.
Either there are lipase enzymes in the milk that remain in the butter, or if
you store the butter long enough, I suppose uncatalyzed hydrolysis could
occur. If there are lipase enzymes in the milk, I'm not sure how much
heating it would take to denature it.
Eric Lucas
inv...@example.com
Lesley Robertson wrote:
>
>rac...@hotmail.com wrote...
>>
>> Salmon Egg wrote:
>>
>>> While not exactly the same experiment, Pasteur carried out a similar one
>>> using animal broth well over a century ago.
>>
>> Proportedly, you can go there and see the experiment still in process.
>> Those vessels are still germ-free and non-putrefied. Which is more
>> than we can say for Louis Pasteur himself right about now. Set up your
>> butter experiment and make your own memory immortal.
>>
>I have a set of Pasteur flasks that were filled at the end of the 19th
>century and are still clear (and thus presumably not growing - I'm not
>opening them to confirm it.
I worked in a class-1 cleanroom where they kept a slab of meat
(and yes, they did choose SPAM..) in an open-top beaker to show
how well the air cleaning system removed microbes. I asked how
long it had been there and they said that every 2-4 months that
one microbe needed to start decay got to the meat, so they check
it every day and toss it if it shows signes of decay. Still,
quite an impressive demo.
chris.li...@gmail.com
A good argument for not snipping the OP.
He excluded all bacteria EXCEPT "non-acidic anaerobic bacteria".
Chris