Bingo! Sleep mysteries unfold
Tom Hendricks
[moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and edited
to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - JAH]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep
Wikipedia says
Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological processes
of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perhaps be
viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during which
the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
Digestion is a daily cycle. There are two parts to the cycle: they are
waking and sleeping.
Waking is catabolic - or the breakdown of food. Wakefulness may perhaps be
viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during which
h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
Sleeping is anabolic -
Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological processes
of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
involves preparation of waste out.
Comments on the catabolic-wake / anabolic-sleep cycle of digestion idea.
Tom Hendricks
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/U/UV_origin_of_life.html (UV paper)
Tom Hendricks / Musea
> [moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and edited
> to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - JAH]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep
>
> Wikipedia says
>
> Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological processes
> of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
> and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perhaps be
> viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during which
> the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
> Digestion is a daily cycle. There are two parts to the cycle: they are
> waking and sleeping.
>
e
> viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during which
> h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> Sleeping is anabolic -
> Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological processes
> of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
> and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
>
> I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
> involves preparation of waste out.
>
> Comments on the catabolic-wake / anabolic-sleep cycle of digestion idea.
e.html(UV paper)
The weekly PARADE magazine, the insert in many Sunday papers, has an
article on sleep and health this weekend.
In relation to the above, I was interested in what ages would need the
most sleep. I would have guessed
that it was those that needed the most anabolic growth and
rejuvenation of the body. Sure enough the chart broke down this way:
Toddlers 12-14 hours of sleep
Preschoolers 11-13
School-age children 10-11
Adolescents 9-10
Adults 7-9
I would also contend that we may be able to break it down into whether
its slow wave NREM sleep or REM sleep.
I suggested that the NREM was for replenishing the body - and would be
most needed by the very young.
The chart seems to suggest that the young need more sleep. Now I
wonder if they need more NREM sleep.
Comments?
Darwin123
wrote:
> On Jun 5, 11:20=3DA0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > [moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and edited
> > to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - JAH]
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep
>
> > Wikipedia says
>
s
> > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
> > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perhaps be
ch
> > the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
> > Digestion is a daily cycle. There are two parts to the cycle: they are
> > waking and sleeping.
>
b=3D
> e
> > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during whi=
ch
> > h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > Sleeping is anabolic -
s
> > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscular,
> > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
>
> > I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
> > involves preparation of waste out.
>
..
> > Tom Hendrickshttp://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/U/UV_origin_of_l=
if=3D
>
> e.html(UV paper)
>
> The weekly PARADE magazine, the insert in many Sunday papers, has an
> article on sleep and health this weekend.
> In relation to the above, I was interested in what ages would need the
> most sleep. I would have guessed
> that it was those that needed the most anabolic growth and
> rejuvenation of the body. Sure enough the chart broke down this way:
>
> Toddlers 12-14 hours of sleep
> Preschoolers 11-13
> School-age children 10-11
> Adolescents 9-10
> Adults 7-9
>
> I would also contend that we may be able to break it down into whether
> I suggested that the NREM was for replenishing the body - and would be
> most needed by the very young.
> The chart seems to suggest that the young need more sleep. Now I
> wonder if they need more NREM sleep.
> Comments?
of vocabulary the adult will have. They learn walking, eating,
drinking, social interactions, etc. It seems to me that more sleep is
required at those stages of growth where the brain is learning the
faster.
It seems to me that there are two natural processes that explains
the tendency you describe, neither of which have anything to do with
digestion. First, the toddler is protected by its mother. There is no
point to moving around. A toddler moving around in the wild can not
defend itself, but could get killed. A toddler that sleeps in its nest
is much safer. So either type of sleep, REM or nonREM, is useful for
the toddler. Sleep keeps them out of trouble. Second, the toddler is
learning lots of new things. The toddler needs REM sleep to move items
from short term memory into long term memory. If it hears a word, and
makes an association, then the may know the word for a short time.
However, it will be forgotten unless it is moved into long term
memory. Supposedly, a lot of that goes on during REM sleep.
Of course, the rest of the body is growing faster at these younger
stages also. However, that doesn't mean sleep is needed for growth of
other parts of the body. One can make a correlation between sleep and
any other process that is faster for youth.
As I understand it, most of the replenishing for sleep occurs in
the brain. Very little repair requires sleep other than brain cells.
Sleep in mammals appears to help the brain the most, and effects the
rest of the body mainly through the brain. Mammals, especially human
beings, learn throughout their lives. However, old individuals learn
at a significantly slower pace than young individuals.
A 70 year old can't learn English as fast as a 1 year old,
although the 70 year old can certainly learn English. Furthermore, the
70 year old needs less sleep than the 1 year old. The 70 year old may
need no sleep at all. They still have to go to the bathroom, however.
The replenshment idea may have partial truth in it, but it is
too vague to be useful. What parts of the body get "replenished," and
what does "replenishment" mean? I suspect you are trying to get back
to your "sleep=3Ddigestion model". However, you have no established a
strong correlation between sleep and digestion.
If you want to investigate whether there is a correlation
between sleep and digestion, then you have to study digestion. You
have not presented any direct connection between sleep and digestion.
You can't connect sleep with something (age, in this post), connect
that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
with digestion.
Tom Hendricks / Musea
> On Jun 7, 2:42=3DA0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 5, 11:20=3D3DA0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > > [moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and edit=
ed
> > > to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - JAH]
>
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep
>
> > > Wikipedia says
>
se=3D
> s
> > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscula=
r,
> > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perhaps =
be
> > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during w=
hi=3D
> ch
> > > the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
e
> > > waking and sleeping.
>
> > > Waking is catabolic - or the breakdown of food. Wakefulness may perha=
ps=3D
> =A0b=3D3D
> > e
> > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during w=
hi=3D
> ch
> > > h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > Sleeping is anabolic -
se=3D
> s
> > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscula=
r,
> > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
>
> > > I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
> > > involves preparation of waste out.
>
ea=3D
> ..
> > > Tom Hendrickshttp://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/U/UV_origin_of=
_l=3D
> if=3D3D
>
> > e.html(UV paper)
>
> > The weekly PARADE magazine, the insert in many Sunday papers, has an
> > article on sleep and health this weekend.
> > In relation to the above, I was interested in what ages would need the
> > most sleep. I would have guessed
> > that it was those that needed the most anabolic growth and
> > rejuvenation of the body. Sure enough the chart broke down this way:
>
> > Toddlers 12-14 hours of sleep
> > Preschoolers 11-13
> > School-age children 10-11
> > Adolescents 9-10
> > Adults 7-9
>
> > I would also contend that we may be able to break it down into whether
> > I suggested that the NREM was for replenishing the body - and would be
> > most needed by the very young.
> > The chart seems to suggest that the young need more sleep. Now I
> > wonder if they need more NREM sleep.
> > Comments?
>
st
> of vocabulary the adult will have. They learn walking, eating,
> drinking, social interactions, etc. It seems to me that more sleep is
> required at those stages of growth where the brain is learning the
> faster.
ins
> the tendency you describe, neither of which have anything to do with
> digestion. First, the toddler is protected by its mother. There is no
> point to moving around. A toddler moving around in the wild can not
> defend itself, but could get killed. A toddler that sleeps in its nest
> is much safer. So either type of sleep, REM or nonREM, is useful for
> the toddler. Sleep keeps them out of trouble. Second, the toddler is
> learning lots of new things. The toddler needs REM sleep to move items
> from short term memory into long term memory. If it hears a word, and
> makes an association, then the may know the word for a short time.
> However, it will be forgotten unless it is moved into long term
> memory. Supposedly, a lot of that goes on during REM sleep.
r
> stages also. However, that doesn't mean sleep is needed for growth of
> other parts of the body. One can make a correlation between sleep and
> any other process that is faster for youth.
in
> the brain. Very little repair requires sleep other than brain cells.
> Sleep in mammals appears to help the brain the most, and effects the
> rest of the body mainly through the brain. Mammals, especially human
> beings, learn throughout their lives. However, old individuals learn
> at a significantly slower pace than young individuals.
> although the 70 year old can certainly learn English. Furthermore, the
> 70 year old needs less sleep than the 1 year old. The 70 year old may
> need no sleep at all. They still have to go to the bathroom, however.
> too vague to be useful. What parts of the body get "replenished," and
> what does "replenishment" mean? I suspect you are trying to get back
a
> strong correlation between sleep and digestion.
> between sleep and digestion, then you have to study digestion. You
> have not presented any direct connection between sleep and digestion.
> You can't connect sleep with something (age, in this post), connect
> that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
> with digestion.
I'm beginning to think that the term digestion is too limiting. And it
suggests isolated
processes. I think perhaps the better term is all food in, and all
waste out, no matter
what cell of the body is involved.
IOW any aspect of the body that builds up, or any aspect of the body
that breaks down.
I think the anabolic, catabolic split is pretty specific though.
Darwin123
> > that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
> > with digestion.
>
any knowledge of what these process are. Further, you haven't
established the connection with sleep. I think you are trying to
associate the anabolic processes with nonREM sleep and the catabolic
processes with wakefulness. However, you have not provided evidence or
even a hypothesis that these associations exist.
An anabolic process is where big molecules break down. A
catabolic process is where small molecules come together to form
large molecules. You provide no evidence that either type of process
has a cyclic nature during the day. In fact, you haven't even
presented that as a hypothesis. You have provided nothing to test,
even in principle.
Speculating is fine. However, it doesn't sound like you are even
speculating. Your introspection and dreams, from which you said you
obtain some of this, may be uncovering more personal issues than
physiology. If you want to put forward a speculation the rest of us
can appreciate, you have to exhibit a little extrinsic knowledge. Such
as knowing what exactly a biochemist means by anabolic or catabolic.
Darwin123
wrote:
> On Jun 8, 12:46=3DA0pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 2:42=3D3DA0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att.net=
>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 5, 11:20=3D3D3DA0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net> wro=
te:
>
> > > > [moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and ed=
it=3D
> ed
> > > > to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - JA=> > > > Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological proc=
es=3D
> se=3D3D
> > s
> > > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscu=
la=3D
> r,
> > > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perhap=
s =3D
> be
> > > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during=
w=3D
> hi=3D3D
> > ch
> > > > the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > > IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
ar=3D
> e
> > > > waking and sleeping.
>
> > > > Waking is catabolic - or the breakdown of food. Wakefulness may per=
ha=3D
> ps=3D3D
> > =3DA0b=3D3D3D
> > > e
> > > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state during=
w=3D
> hi=3D3D
> > ch
> > > > h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > > Sleeping is anabolic -
es=3D
> se=3D3D
> > s
> > > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, muscu=
la=3D
> r,
> > > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
>
> > > > I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
> > > > involves preparation of waste out.
>
id=3D
> ea=3D3D
> > ..
> > > > Tom Hendrickshttp://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/U/UV_origin_=
of=3D
> _l=3D3D
> > if=3D3D3D
>
> > > e.html(UV paper)
>
> > > The weekly PARADE magazine, the insert in many Sunday papers, has an
> > > article on sleep and health this weekend.
e
> > > most sleep. I would have guessed
> > > that it was those that needed the most anabolic growth and
> > > rejuvenation of the body. Sure enough the chart broke down this way:
>
> > > Toddlers 12-14 hours of sleep
> > > Preschoolers 11-13
> > > School-age children 10-11
> > > Adolescents 9-10
> > > Adults 7-9
>
r
> > > its slow wave NREM sleep =3D3DA0or REM sleep.
> > > I suggested that the NREM was for replenishing the body - and would b=
e
> > > most needed by the very young.
> > > The chart seems to suggest that the young need more sleep. Now I
> > > wonder if they need more NREM sleep.
> > > Comments?
>
earns mo=3D
> st
> > of vocabulary the adult will have. They learn walking, eating,
> > drinking, social interactions, etc. It seems to me that more sleep is
> > required at those stages of growth where the brain is learning the
> > faster.
at expla=3D
> ins
> > the tendency you describe, neither of which have anything to do with
> > digestion. First, the toddler is protected by its mother. There is no
> > point to moving around. A toddler moving around in the wild can not
> > defend itself, but could get killed. A toddler that sleeps in its nest
> > is much safer. So either type of sleep, REM or nonREM, is useful for
> > the toddler. Sleep keeps them out of trouble. Second, the toddler is
> > learning lots of new things. The toddler needs REM sleep to move items
> > from short term memory into long term memory. If it hears a word, and
> > makes an association, then the may know the word for a short time.
> > However, it will be forgotten unless it is moved into long term
> > memory. Supposedly, a lot of that goes on during REM sleep.
younge=3D
> r
> > stages also. However, that doesn't mean sleep is needed for growth of
> > other parts of the body. One can make a correlation between sleep and
> > any other process that is faster for youth.
p occurs=3D
> =A0in
> > the brain. Very little repair requires sleep other than brain cells.
> > Sleep in mammals appears to help the brain the most, and effects the
> > rest of the body mainly through the brain. Mammals, especially human
> > beings, learn throughout their lives. However, old individuals learn
> > at a significantly slower pace than young individuals.
> > although the 70 year old can certainly learn English. Furthermore, the
> > 70 year old needs less sleep than the 1 year old. The 70 year old may
> > need no sleep at all. They still have to go to the bathroom, however.
ut it is
> > too vague to be useful. What parts of the body get "replenished," and
> > what does "replenishment" mean? I suspect you are trying to get back
ished =3D
> a
> > strong correlation between sleep and digestion.
tion
> > between sleep and digestion, then you have to study digestion. You
> > have not presented any direct connection between sleep and digestion.
> > that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
> > with digestion.
>
> suggests isolated
> processes. I think perhaps the better term is all food in, and all
> waste out, no matter
> what cell of the body is involved.
> IOW any aspect of the body that builds up, or any aspect of the body
> that breaks down.
Maybe the word you are looking for is metabolism rather than
digestion.
I recall an article in Discover exploring the evolutionary reasons
for sleep. I don't remember the exact date, sorry. However, it showed
correlations between sleep, total weight of animal, and lifespan of
animal. The author tried to explain both REM sleep and nonREM sleep.
He did mention something about metabolism and nerve cells, not a
general rejuvenatation of the body.
I believe he looked only at mammals. Therefore, we can't use these
results to extrapolate the origin of dormancy. However, mammalian
sleep has different functions than fish. Since you are interested in
human sleep, his conclusion may be of interest. However, I agree that
the origin of dormancy probably started with our fish ancestors trying
to hide at night.
I'll tell you what I remember. maybe you can find the article.
First, REM sleep incresed with the lifespan of the animal. The
author attributed that to the processing of memory. Many studies show
that short term memory is turned to long term memory during REM sleep.
Memory is most important to an animal with a long lifespan. So natural
selection for long lived mammals favor sleep.
Second, nonREM sleep decreased with the total size (weight) of
the animal. This he associated with repair of nerve cells. Small
animals have a higher metabolism. Higher metabolism generates free
radicals that destroy cells. Nerve cells are more sensitive to free
radicals because they don't reproduce fast. So the extra sleep in this
case was associated with repair of nerve cells.
The second correlation sounds like a subset of what you have in
mind. NonREM sleep is for "rejuvenation" of nerve cells. If we
generalize his reasoning just a little bit, we can argue that nonREM
sleep is for the rejuvenation of any cell that reproduces slowly. Any
cell that doesn't reproduce (like spinal cord nerve cells) can't be
replaced. They can only be repaired at best.
This doesn't precisely match your model, though it comes close.
Cells that reproduce rapidly (e.g., stem cells) would be more
replaceable than slow moving cells, and so don't need repair.
Therefore, sleep would not be needed to rejuvenate them. The idea of
over all "rejuvenation" doesn't quite fit.
Again, I think we are talking about present day mammals. The
premammal origin of dormancy may be very well hiding from enemies. I
think that function is still important for juvenile mammals.
Tom Hendricks
http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-sleep15-2009jun15,0,6989411.story
Here's a quote
"Insomnia seems to be caused by excessive metabolic activity in the
brain's frontal cortex. For deep, refreshing sleep to occur, the
frontal cortex has to rest, said Dr. Eric Nofzinger, a professor of
psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh.
Research on brain injuries has shown that cooling the brain reduces
metabolic activity. Nofzinger and his colleagues decided to try the
same concept on insomnia by designing a device that gently cools the
frontal cortex during sleep. "
Note the metabolic connection.
Tom Hendricks
> On Jun 9, 12:15=3DA0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 12:46=3D3DA0pm, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 7, 2:42=3D3D3DA0pm, "Tom Hendricks / Musea" <tom-hendri...@att=
..net=3D
>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 5, 11:20=3D3D3D3DA0am, Tom Hendricks <tom-hendri...@att.net>=
wro=3D
> te:
>
> > > > > [moderator's note: Article originally posted in MIME format, and =
ed=3D
> it=3D3D
> > ed
> > > > > to flat text by me. Folks, POST IN ASCII. No binaries allowed. - =
JA=3D> > > > > Non-REM sleep may be an anabolic state marked by physiological pr=
oc=3D
> es=3D3D
> > se=3D3D3D
> > > s
> > > > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, mus=
cu=3D
> la=3D3D
> > r,
> > > > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions). Wakefulness may perh=
ap=3D
> s =3D3D
> > be
> > > > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state duri=
ng=3D
> =A0w=3D3D
> > hi=3D3D3D
> > > ch
> > > > > the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > > > IF they are reliable in this then that fits nicely in my idea.
y =3D
> ar=3D3D
> > e
> > > > > waking and sleeping.
>
> > > > > Waking is catabolic - or the breakdown of food. Wakefulness may p=
er=3D
> ha=3D3D
> > ps=3D3D3D
> > > =3D3DA0b=3D3D3D3D
> > > > e
> > > > > viewed as a cyclical, temporary, hyperactive catabolic state duri=
ng=3D
> =A0w=3D3D
> > hi=3D3D3D
> > > ch
> > > > > h the organism acquires nourishment and reproduces."
>
> > > > > Sleeping is anabolic -
oc=3D
> es=3D3D
> > se=3D3D3D
> > > s
> > > > > of growth and rejuvenation of the organism's immune, nervous, mus=
cu=3D
> la=3D3D
> > r,
> > > > > and skeletal systems (with some exceptions)
>
> > > > > I also add that there is a 2nd part of sleep marked by REM, that
> > > > > involves preparation of waste out.
>
n =3D
> id=3D3D
> > ea=3D3D3D
> > > ..
> > > > > Tom Hendrickshttp://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/U/UV_origi=
n_=3D
> of=3D3D
> > _l=3D3D3D
> > > if=3D3D3D3D
>
> > > > e.html(UV paper)
>
> > > > The weekly PARADE magazine, the insert in many Sunday papers, has a=
n
> > > > article on sleep and health this weekend.
th=3D
> e
> > > > most sleep. I would have guessed
> > > > that it was those that needed the most anabolic growth and
:
>
> > > > Toddlers 12-14 hours of sleep
> > > > Preschoolers 11-13
> > > > School-age children 10-11
> > > > Adolescents 9-10
> > > > Adults 7-9
>
he=3D
> r
> > > > its slow wave NREM sleep =3D3D3DA0or REM sleep.
> > > > I suggested that the NREM was for replenishing the body - and would=
b=3D
> e
> > > > most needed by the very young.
> > > > The chart seems to suggest that the young need more sleep. Now I
> > > > wonder if they need more NREM sleep.
> > > > Comments?
>
oddler l=3D
> earns mo=3D3D
> > st
> > > of vocabulary the adult will have. They learn walking, eating,
> > > drinking, social interactions, etc. It seems to me that more sleep is
> > > required at those stages of growth where the brain is learning the
> > > faster.
esses th=3D
> at expla=3D3D
> > ins
> > > the tendency you describe, neither of which have anything to do with
> > > digestion. First, the toddler is protected by its mother. There is no
> > > point to moving around. A toddler moving around in the wild can not
t
> > > is much safer. So either type of sleep, REM or nonREM, is useful for
> > > the toddler. Sleep keeps them out of trouble. Second, the toddler is
s
> > > from short term memory into long term memory. If it hears a word, and
> > > makes an association, then the may know the word for a short time.
> > > However, it will be forgotten unless it is moved into long term
> > > memory. Supposedly, a lot of that goes on during REM sleep.
these =3D
> younge=3D3D
> > r
> > > stages also. However, that doesn't mean sleep is needed for growth of
> > > other parts of the body. One can make a correlation between sleep and
> > > any other process that is faster for youth.
for slee=3D
> p occurs=3D3D
> > =3DA0in
> > > the brain. Very little repair requires sleep other than brain cells.
> > > Sleep in mammals appears to help the brain the most, and effects the
> > > rest of the body mainly through the brain. Mammals, especially human
> > > beings, learn throughout their lives. However, old individuals learn
> > > at a significantly slower pace than young individuals.
old,
> > > although the 70 year old can certainly learn English. Furthermore, th=
e
> > > 70 year old needs less sleep than the 1 year old. The 70 year old may
> > > need no sleep at all. They still have to go to the bathroom, however.
in it, b=3D
> ut it is
> > > too vague to be useful. What parts of the body get "replenished," and
> > > what does "replenishment" mean? I suspect you are trying to get back
establ=3D
> ished =3D3D
> > a
> > > strong correlation between sleep and digestion.
correla=3D
> tion
> > > between sleep and digestion, then you have to study digestion. You
> > > have not presented any direct connection between sleep and digestion.
> > > You can't connect sleep with something (age, in this post), connect
> > > that something with digestion, and then claim that sleep is connected
> > > with digestion.
>
> > I'm beginning to think that the term digestion is too limiting. And it
> > suggests isolated
> > processes. I think perhaps the better term is all food in, and all
> > waste out, no matter
> > what cell of the body is involved.
> > IOW any aspect of the body that builds up, or any aspect of the body
> > that breaks down.
> > I think the anabolic, catabolic split is pretty specific though.
>
> digestion.
> =A0 =A0 I recall an article in Discover exploring the evolutionary reason=
s
> for sleep. I don't remember the exact date, sorry. However, it showed
> correlations between sleep, total weight of animal, and lifespan of
> animal. The author tried to explain both REM sleep and nonREM sleep.
> He did mention something about metabolism and nerve cells, not a
> general rejuvenatation of the body.
e
> results to extrapolate the origin of dormancy. However, mammalian
> sleep has different functions than fish. Since you are interested in
> human sleep, his conclusion may be of interest. However, I agree that
> the origin of dormancy probably started with our fish ancestors trying
> to hide at night.
> =A0 =A0 First, REM sleep incresed with the lifespan of the animal. The
> author attributed that to the processing of memory. Many studies show
> that short term memory is turned to long term memory during REM sleep.
> Memory is most important to an animal with a long lifespan. So natural
> selection for long lived mammals favor sleep.
> the animal. This he associated with repair of nerve cells. Small
> animals have a higher metabolism. Higher metabolism generates free
> radicals that destroy cells. Nerve cells are more sensitive to free
> radicals because they don't reproduce fast. So the extra sleep in this
> case was associated with repair of nerve cells.
> mind. NonREM sleep is for "rejuvenation" of nerve cells. If we
> generalize his reasoning just a little bit, we can argue that nonREM
> sleep is for the rejuvenation of any cell that reproduces slowly. Any
> cell that doesn't reproduce (like spinal cord nerve cells) can't be
> replaced. They can only be repaired at best.
e.
> Cells that reproduce rapidly (e.g., stem cells) would be more
> replaceable than slow moving cells, and so don't need repair.
> Therefore, sleep would not be needed to rejuvenate them. The idea of
> over all "rejuvenation" doesn't quite fit.
> premammal origin of dormancy may be very well hiding from enemies. I
> think that function is still important for juvenile mammals.
Thanks for your comments. I've gotten this far through investigating
my own life through some basic self hypnosis practices over decades.
What starts out as a simple yes or no response on the subconscious
level,
can be developed such that some basic directions -
and they are somewhat vague - on how
the body works can surface after decades of trial and error.
The overriding message that my body tells me is a sense of
simplicity, that
food in waste out is the key, and that sex is important too.
That once you set up a cell you have
food in /waste out that further goes to 4 options. And that two of
those
involve waking, and two sleep.
Now you may want me to spell out all the evidence. But I assure you
this
is so preliminary that to even spell out the hypothesis is a
challenge.
But I can tell you that your body, not your mind is in charge. And it
follows
the basics of food in and waste out.
And once even a yes/no system is set up with your subconscious, or
unconscious
(and that is controversial) I claim you can find some basic facts
about how the
body works, why we sleep, why the body is basically for what nurtures,
and against
what's bad etc. etc. And that this is universal with all living
things.
Now I will say this. In this inchoate period, all I can expect is that
others look.
Look with an open mind, I think you'll find evidence to fit and very
little evidence
that does not fit- though again at this
early early early stage, I can only surmise the basics. But those
basics
are getting more and more specific and as I have pointed out, more and
more
and more of the aspects of life, waking/sleep, male/female, the work
of Karen Horney,
catabolic, anabolic, food in / waste out, etc. etc. do all fit.
Tom Hendricks
>
> Thanks for your comments. I've gotten this far through investigating
> my own life through some basic self hypnosis practices over decades.
> level,
> can be developed such that =A0some basic directions -
> and they are somewhat vague - on how
> the body works can surface after decades of trial and error.
>
> simplicity, that
> food in waste out is the key, and that sex is important too.
> That once you set up a cell you have
> food in /waste out that further goes to 4 options. And that two of
> those
> involve waking, and two sleep.
> this
> is so preliminary that to even spell out the hypothesis is a
> challenge.
>
> But I can tell you that your body, not your mind is in charge. And it
> follows
> the basics of food in and waste out.
>
> And once even a yes/no system is set up with your subconscious, or
> unconscious
> (and that is controversial) I claim you can find some basic facts
> about how the
> body works, why we sleep, why the body is basically for what nurtures,
> and against
> what's bad etc. etc. And that this is universal with all living
> things.
>
> Now I will say this. In this inchoate period, all I can expect is that
> others look.
> little evidence
> that does not fit- though again at this
> early early early stage, I can only surmise the basics. But those
> basics
> are getting more and more specific and as I have pointed out, more and
> more
> and more of the aspects of life, waking/sleep, male/female, the work
> of Karen Horney,
Tom Hendricks
breastfeeding, a pattern of metabolism is set up that is almost
impossible to change.
I've also suggested that sleep is half of this metabolism cycle with
two distinct periods: NREM or deep sleep, and REM lighter sleep with
many dreams.
NREM, I suggest is for replenishing the body.
REM, I suggest is for preparing waste out.
Now I'd like to go further and suggest that this pattern can have two
problems one with each section of sleep. They are:
1. too little NREM or deep sleep, REM normal -
The child becomes an adult that is most notably THIN. There is a
sense that there is not enough replenishment. The "waste out" option
may be over emphasized.
To resolve the problem the adult needs a new pattern of sleep that
gets more NREM sleep.
2. too little REM or dream sleep, NREM or deep sleep is normal -
The child becomes an adult that is most notably FAT. There is a sense
that too little is being excreted out. The "replenish the body",
option may be over emphasized.
To resolve the problem the adult needs a new pattern of sleep that
gets more REM sleep.
There is no problem with too much deep sleep, and/or too much REM
sleep. The adult just wakes up.
There is a quick way to check this idea. Thin people should have
sleep disorders of too little deep sleep in all cases. Fat people
should have sleep disorders of too little REM sleep in all cases.
Comment?
Tom Hendricks
LZ4n1Wp&sig=a-MiMyeo6FERuvggXOFVx_fgMcs&hl=en&ei=eyBIStDVN4ikMOPj9KsB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1(Page 54)
"Note there is an uptake of colonic motor activities just before
waking. This finding coinciding with the morning sensation of need to
empty the bowels."
This finding fits the idea that the 2nd part of sleep is prepare waste
out.
Tom Hendricks
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disorders/sleep_disorders/hic_sleep_basics.aspx
During NREM sleep, the body repairs and regenerates tissues, builds
bone and muscle, and appears to strengthen the immune system. As you
get older, you get less NREM sleep. People under age 30 have about two
hours of restorative sleep every night, while those over 65 might get
only 30 minutes.
Tom Hendricks
associated with obesity.
Please see
http://esciencenews.com/dictionary/rem.sleep
Tom Hendricks
certain chronic diseases.
Sleep = 2 parts
Part one - NREM or the deep sleep, used to replenish the body.
If there is a problem with too little NREM sleep, the body type will
be thin, underweight, and undernourished.
Now I think we can add this = liable to all ailments and diseases of
being undernourished., health problems of being too thin,
psychological problems of being too thin and underweight.
Part two - REM sleep, used to prepare waste out.
If there is a problem with too little REM sleep, the body type will be
fat, overweight, too little waste out.
Now I think we can add this = liable to all ailments and diseases of
not getting all waste out, health problems of being too fat,
psychological problems of being too fat and overweight.
If I am correct, then in every case those who have thin body type
should have trouble with to little NREM sleep, and those who have fat
body type should have trouble with REM sleep.
Tom Hendricks
See this too for more connection between REM sleep problems and
obesity.
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-1/REM-sleep-associated-with-overw=
eight-in-children-and-adolescents-21643-1/
Tom Hendricks
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=3DREM+sleep+obesity&page=3D1&qsrc=3D0&ab=3D4&u=3Dh=
ttp%3A%2F%2Flin.ca%2Fresource-details%2F12376
Reuters Health (August 4, 2008 By: JULIE STEENHUYSEN) writes that
studies have shown that children and teens who fail to get the proper
amount of sleep each night are more prone to obesity, and researchers
now think it may be linked to a particular stage of sleep. They said
not spending enough time in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep =96 the kind
normally associated with dreaming =96 significantly increased the odds
of obesity in children and teens.
Tom Hendricks
> In the previous post, I suggested that REM sleep disorders were
> associated with obesity.
>
> Please seehttp://esciencenews.com/dictionary/rem.sleep
Here is a study that I found interesting with its look at deep sleep ,
NREM and starvation.
Remember I suggest that NREM problems lead to underweight and thin
body type.
Regarding the effects of starvation on sleep regulation, recent
research in healthy humans and in animals demonstrates that such a
condition results in a fragmentation of sleep and a reduction of slow
wave sleep.
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S1087079202001223
Tom Hendricks
This study shows a connection between underweight health problems and
sleep disorders.
See Sleep Disturbance Associated with Eating Disorders section
=9R4loZkI5K&sig=yZ8HzGoA-FBkCkpsZrYZtCBj-MY&hl=en&ei=TCROSpqVIJGKMuaPnO4D&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
Tom Hendricks
This study shows a connection between underweight health problems and
sleep disorders.
See Sleep Disturbance Associated with Eating Disorders section