Re: If you kill the queen with boric acid - where do the forager ants go after that?

[T]

On 10/24/23 19:18, Peter wrote:
> Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
> queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
> them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
> poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).
>
> The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
> and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
>
> But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
> remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?
>
> Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?


Mix the boric acid with a bit of cheap honey and water.
They will all eat it and die. But not right away.
Enough time will have passed for them to feed it
to the queen.

Any of the worked it missed should just die off
after that.

I wiped out the ants farming aphids in my garden
that way. Got the whole bunch.

And with no ants to protect them, the aphids were
a good lunch for lady bugs.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 03:18:20 +0100, Peter

<conf...@nospam.net> wrote:

>Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
>queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
>them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
>poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).
>
>The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
>and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
>
>But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
>remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?

I think they hang around in bars and casinos, telling each antette they
meet that since the queen is dead, they will make her a queen, when all
they really want is some royal jelly .

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
> Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to kill the
> queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill them when you see
> them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food with a slow-acting
> poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the chicken meat bait).

the worker ants do not usually live very long when
compared to the queen. it depends upon which ant
caste you are examining.

> The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their bodies
> and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and her pupae.
>
> But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for the
> remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their lives?
>

> Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the queen?

it depends upon the ant species, some are more persistent
and can recover from the death of a queen and others will
not.

but for most ant species they might be around for a while
but eventually they'll die off as the colony disintegrates.
remember that for most ants the queen is what drives the
hive and when she's gone it will not persist too long. if
there is no young to feed the foragers will not work as hard
and there won't be replacements for those who are lost so
the colony will implode. the colony may also be raided by
other ants or animals.


songbird

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...
> I guess that means that one colony will likely fall apart after the queen
> is poisoned by the boric acid - and the workers will lose interest in the
> nest or be conquered by another species.

yes.

also think about just general mass and how things tend to
go in life. the smaller something is that is alive the
faster it tends to live and then dies.

in ant species i think that is also appropriate for a
generality even if it doesn't apply 100%. so the tiny
ants will probably only last a short while.

since you seem to have an interest in ants check out
the book The Ants from Holldobler and Wilson and by
check out i mean request it through your local library.
it's big, it's heavy, it's got a ton of information.
it will help you id different species.


songbird

[songbird]

songbird wrote:

as a ps i see that Wilson has another more recent book
on ants called Tales from the Ant World which looks to
be a more conversational and lighter book. so i've now
requested that from the library so i can have something
to read. i need a good book and this will likely do
quite well... :)


songbird

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...
> But I didn't see explicitly the answer to the question, which is probably
> that the colony will disperse, but the workers will remain alive for years.

if you can kill off the workers early when a colony is
first getting going you can take it out, but you have to
be pretty dilligent. the queen can feed herself eggs
for a while, but if you can keep the foragers from being
able to bring back water they will have a much harder
time of it.

we have carpenter ants here which tried to start a
colony in the wall and door of a shed. for years i was
trying to bait it and killing off as many foragers as i
could whenever i saw them. this past summer even with
a long dry heat spell with almost no rains for many
weeks and high temperatures i could still not get rid
of the colony but i finally dug out the rotting part of
the door sill and replaced it and caulked it all back
together and finally i think i got the boogers out of
there. that colony had been limping along for years.

sealing up any gaps they can exploit it helpful if
you seem to have a lot of ants in the house. find the
gaps and get them caulked or sealed up somehow.

another time we had an ant colony get going in the
ceiling of all places and it was quite a ways from
any food or water but it was able to get established
and have many ants before we finally baited it and they
all got killed off. within a few weeks they were gone
completely. if you've successfully gotten enough bait
into their food supply they store in the nest (in other
ants) then as those ants dole it out that will kill
any workers.


songbird

[badgolferman]

Peter wrote:

>Given ants live almost as long as people used to live, you have to
>kill the queen (otherwise she makes more forager ants if you kill
>them when you see them) so you have to be sneaky by baiting the food
>with a slow-acting poison (such as a sprinkling of boric acid on the
>chicken meat bait).
>

>The forager ants bring the boric acid back to the nest both on their
>bodies and in the food they regurgitate back to feed the queen and
>her pupae.
>
>But if you kill the queen, then what do the rest of the ants do for
>the remaining 5 to 10 to 30 years (depending on the species) of their
>lives?
>
>Do the workers still infest your house & forage for food without the
>queen?

I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is when I see
ants in the house I put out a few Terro liquid ant baits and after they
empty those I don't see them again until next year.

--
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." ~ Voltaire

[Frankie]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 13:52:37 -0000 (UTC), badgolferman wrote:

> I don't know the answer to your question. All I know is when I see
> ants in the house I put out a few Terro liquid ant baits and after they
> empty those I don't see them again until next year.

This stuff? https://www.thespruce.com/terro-liquid-ant-baits-review-4686412

"The idea is to kill the ants slowly so that they have time to deliver the
serum to the rest of the nest, including the queen, and exterminate the
remaining ants."

They say "For effective elimination, it is important to use multiple ant
baits simultaneously" but they don't say why that would be the case.

The active ingredient is sodium tetraborate decahydrate (borax).

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
...
> The main question, given ants live as long as your pets do, is what stops
> the foragers from foraging & what eventually kills them off over time.

if you have gotten enough poison into a colony that you've
managed to kill off the queen then the remaining ants are
also likely to be poisoned.


...
> On page 291 when Holldobler & Wilson talk about the stages of colony
> growth, it's instructive when they say "colonies of all known ant species
> are perennial. Like flowering plants, they issue a crop of seeds, then
> return to an interval of purely vegetative (i.e., worker) growth."

yes, i've noticed that. i would not see them for a month
and then a new crop of workers would start foraging and i
would take them out as much as i could. then when i don't
see them for a while i think the colony was dead but it
wasn't. this time i think i finally got it.


> On page 629 Wilson describes how when he reduced a population of 10,000
> workers to only 236 in number, he determined the four year old colony
> reverted to a size-frequency distribution of a young colony instead.
>
> This adaptive demography implies that we must kill off the queen and not
> just the foraging ants, but unfortunately the words "boric acid" don't
> occur anywhere in the text, nor does "borax" for that endeavor.

at different stages the colony may also have a preference
for what it will take as bait. when raising a lot of young
they may want more protein and fats and other times more
sugars and liquids.


> In a hint to what happens after the queen is killed, on page 369 they
> discuss how dangerous the altruistic life is of foragers, averaging about
> 14 days for the Idaho harvester Pogonomyrmex owyheei and an average of 0.06
> deaths per worker foraging hour for the California harvester Pogonomyrmex
> californicus simply due to the inherent dangers of conflict & predation.
>
> However, on page 1239 they discuss how some ant species (such as granivores
> in Death Valley) store food to last them a dozen years of drought, which
> implies we might not get the queen with a single boric acid ant bait trap
> after all.
>
> This is backed up on page 465 which says the laying queen can obtain
> nutrients from salivary secretions of her own larvae.
>
> It seems that it may not be a sure bet to lay out a single trap to kill the
> queen as a result of that information but if the queen is killed off, then
> no more workers will be produced for that colony, where it seems the
> foragers' normal lifespan will likely be limited more by the dangers of
> predators and other colonies as you mentioned earlier in this thread than
> by the fact they can live as long as your typical pet's natural lifespan.

they're facinating creatures and very successful. the old
biblical saying about study their ways and be wise is still
very apt.


songbird

[Frankie]

On 25/10/2023, songbird wrote:

> if you can kill off the workers early when a colony is
> first getting going you can take it out, but you have to
> be pretty dilligent. the queen can feed herself eggs
> for a while, but if you can keep the foragers from being
> able to bring back water they will have a much harder
> time of it.

Found this https://sciencing.com/happens-queen-ant-dies-6162758.html
What happens when the queen ant dies?
"When the queen ant dies, no more ants will be born, so the colony will die
off. The death of the colony will not be immediate, but will slowly die off
over time as no new members will be added."

This says the workers die of a confused hunger but they can last years.
https://misfitanimals.com/ants/what-happens-when-a-queen-ant-dies/

But this says the workers "will continue to act as if the colony is still
functioning normally but without a queen" and slowly die off on their own.
https://www.ecoguardpestmanagement.com/pest-resources/what-happens-when-the-queen-ant-dies
"Without the queen, there won't be any changes to the directives given to
the worker ants so they will just continue to collect food."

This explains the adults can't eat solids and the larvae only eat solids.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/558090/why-do-ants-die-after-queen-dies

"They come out to get food and bring it back to the nest, then they chew it
up and place it on their larvae. Larvae will swallow and digest the food
for them. Especially protein. Larvae secrete nutrient-rich liquids back to
the ants, which is their main source of amino acids and fatty acids.

What happens when queens die? No eggs, hence no larvae.

What happens when there are no larvae? Bad nutrition, ultimately no reason
for the nest. Ants gradually get disorganized, and after a few weeks they
die."

[Frankie]

On 26/10/2023, Peter wrote:

> I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
> that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

The bait doesn't have to be wet unless you are trying to feed workers.
https://professionalpestmanager.com/pest-control-ants/research/how-do-ants-eat-solid-food/

"The mouthparts of adult ants do not allow them to chew and ingest solid
food. Indeed, their infrabuccal plate actually filters out solid particles
as they imbibe liquid. Of course, their mandibles allow them to cut up and
transport solid food, so they can easily take such food back to the nest.

These solid food particles, which are often high in protein, are required
by the larvae for growth and by the queen for egg laying. It is the larvae
that are key in processing the solid foods for the colony.

Previously it was thought that ant larvae would chew and ingest solid food
and then regurgitate the juices for consumption by workers and for
distribution to the queen and rest of the colony.

However, it has recently been established, at least in some species, that
the food is placed on the belly surfaces of the larvae, generally the older
larvae, for digestion externally.

The larvae spit out digestive enzymes onto the food and a few hours later
the workers return to imbibe the resulting liquid meal.

This liquified protein is then fed back to the larvae that did all the work
and is also passed on to other larvae and reproductives."

This says ants mostly eat carbs and proteins and fats, just like we do.
https://schoolofbugs.com/what-can-ants-eat/

This says adults can't eat solid food but bring the solids to the nest.
https://scifaqs.com/how-do-ants-eat/
The larvae chew up the food and regurgitate it for the adults to eat.

This says the foraging ants find food mostly by their acute sense of smell.
https://scifaqs.com/how-do-ants-find-food/
They can smell food fifteen feet away from them, much like dogs can.

This says the ants don't store food in the nest but in their stomach.
https://www.backyardpests.com/what-do-ants-do-with-food/
They have a social stomach (for sharing) and a personal stomach.

[Frankie]

On 25/10/2023, Peter wrote:

> I'm just wondering what happens to the ants that didn't eat the bait as
> that can't be the only foraging party that the queen sent out that day.

The Internet is filled with contradictions.

Most references say you need 30 bait traps to make sure you get the queen.
https://www.completehomemaker.com/boric-acid-for-ants/

This says the boric acid can't be detected by the ants.
https://www.thebugexperts.com/expert-guide-how-to-kill-ants-with-boric-acid/
But then later in the same article it says sugar masks the bitterness of
the boric acid so the author can't keep his facts straight.

To explain further, first it says "What makes boric acid especially
effective is that ants cannot detect its presence, so they unknowingly
carry it back to their nest, inadvertently infecting the entire colony" and
then it says "The powdered sugar helps mask the bitterness of boric acid,
making the bait attractive to ants."

That article is contradictory.

The Internet is filled with contradictions as this says "too much boric
acid may cause the ants to detect the presence of the boric acid and they
simply will not feed on the bait."
https://www.orkin.com/pests/ants/boric-acid-and-ants

That article said boric acid is more effective than borax but more
dangerous to humans while the previous article said the opposite about
both.

Then you have others saying keep the bait as dry (not wet) as possible.
https://bugpursuits.com/how-to-use-boric-acid-to-kill-ants/
"It is important to keep this mixture as dry as possible, as moisture can
reduce its effectiveness."

While almost every article says boric acid shouldn't be consumed, this one
says "Look for food-grade boric acid, as it's safe for home use."
https://www.thebugexperts.com/expert-guide-how-to-kill-ants-with-boric-acid/

It could be that nobody knows what they're talking about.

[Frankie]

On 25/10/2023, Peter wrote:

> Here are some images of the bait traps I made with chicken meat.

Those most likely are Argentine ants (Linepithema humile) says this.
https://ucanr.edu/sites/ccmg/files/103018.pdf

But it suggests you double check the species with this id chart.
https://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7411.html

If it is the Argentine ant, it's not like any other ant is.
https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/626385/argentine-ant-facts
"Each spring, just before mating season begins, worker ants go on a killing
rampage and assassinate 90 percent of their queens."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1420-9101.2001.00345.x

The Argentine ant arrived to the US in 1890 on ships before taking over.
https://baynature.org/article/a-pervasive-invasive-the-argentine-ant/

Linepithema humile colonies have more than one queen.
https://baynature.org/article/a-pervasive-invasive-the-argentine-ant/
"While most ant colonies support a single queen, Argentine ant nests have
many, and they reproduce at the same time."

Wikipedia says Argentine ants form a mega colony without antagonism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_ant
It says that mega colony extends from San Diego to San Francisco.

Wikipedia says "Argentine ant colonies almost invariably have many
reproductive queens, as many as eight for every 1,000 workers." which is
roughly about one queen for every 100 Argentine ant workers.

Wikipedia even says the queens forage with the workers
"When they invade a kitchen, it is not uncommon to see two or three queens
foraging along with the workers."

While they say there are so many queens you won't get them all, it says how
to kill them. "Borate-sucrose water baits are toxic to Argentine ants, when
the bait is 25% water, with 0.5-1.0% boric acid or borate salts"
https://www.urban.ucr.edu/docs/Argentine%20Ant/2004%20Klotz%20et%20al.%20In%20Search%20of%20the%20SweetSpot.pdf
https://urban.ucr.edu/docs/Argentine%20Ant/2000%20Klotz%20et%20al.%20Toxicity%20and%20Repellency%20of%20Borate-Sucrose%20.pdf

Some articles say Argentine ants have one queen for every 10 workers.
https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ants-will-do-anything-for-sugar-but-not-this
And that the queens forage along with the worker ants.

[songbird]

Peter wrote:
> songbird <song...@anthive.com> wrote:

...

>> they're facinating creatures and very successful. the old
>> biblical saying about study their ways and be wise is still
>> very apt.
>

> I agree with you that we have to understand their nature as most people I
> think just kill the workers which simply stimulates the queen to make more.

>
> I'm still trying to figure out why the bait needs to be wet as I noticed
> that ants have salivary glands outlined physiologically in that last text.

for the smaller common ants i think the food the
foragers actually consume is liquid (nectar from flowers
and sometimes honeydew produced by aphids or other sucking
bugs). the meat and fats in the diet for the larvae is
what comes from bugs or perhaps small animals (and even
sometimes other ant colonies).


> Also I'm trying to figure out the optimum ratio of boric acid, although I
> note that many people use borax (which is essentially a diluted form).

there's a lot of recipes available on-line. i've not had
very good luck with the carpenter ants i was trying to bait
into oblivion but the other smaller brown (a very common ant
here) took the same bait ok. and setting up a few bait
stations near their colonies would take them out after a
while. the problem we sometimes have is that there are
many raccoons around so they are always going for any bait
and chewing up some plastics to get at the baits.


songbird