Question about propulsion

[Jan Panteltje]

Question about propulsion

Was wondering yesterday, solar sails, light pushing a spacecraft.
Then started thinking:
old car headlight with reflector . light beam, should have a reaction force too?
light exhaust speed is C
Should also work for heat, as heat is also IR radiation
So nuclear core heated close to critical with reflector screen should work too!
Space is very cold, cools reflector, like Webb telescope screen.

So the math?
Interstellar space travel close to C made easy?

Then I vaguely remembered Pioneer needed a correction because of the radiation from the RTGs..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_anomaly

So what are we waiting for to go to the stars?

[Lou]

Sounds reasonable. Although after spending all that time slowly accelerating
you would have to turn the light source around at half way point just as you
were getting up speed. And start decelerating again. Might take ages to get
there.
Plus all the interstellar dust gas etc would so badly damage the craft and
occupants all that would arrive at the destination would be a badly damaged
spaceship and some rather dead passengers.
I like the Oumuamua method. Find a handy local nickel iron asteroid. Terraform it
to a long tubular shape 1/2 mile long maybe. Hollow out the inside for small
city sized accomadation that would be safe from meteorites and radiation.
Put a nuclear reactor powered dynamo at the mid point and use that to
supply the thrust to spin the cigar shaped craft on a mid point axis to
supply artificial gravity on either side of the mid point of the spaceship.
And set it off spinning towards the nearest star with some sort of initial
propulsion blast. Once it’s at a hi speed it could slingshot from star to star
just like an interstellar Oumuamua spaceship.
Have a whole network of these hi speed craft going around the galaxy like
a hi speed train network. Drop off and drop on would have to be done
locally on each star by space shuttle like crafts which would blast
off from any habitable local planets to catch up to these passing hi speed
interstellar crafts.
Might get from our sun to the nearest star in maybe only a couple of hundred thousand
years! Who knows that might be enough time for the passengers to evolve into
a new species!!

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 2 Sep 2022 21:54:26 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lou
<noeltu...@live.co.uk> wrote in
<d81544bb-e2ca-4b6a...@googlegroups.com>:

>blast. Once it=E2=80=99s at a hi speed it could slingshot from star

>to star
>just like an interstellar Oumuamua spaceship.
>Have a whole network of these hi speed craft going around the galaxy like
>a
>hi speed train network. Drop off and drop on would have to be done
>locally on each star by space shuttle like crafts which would blast
>off from any habitable local planets to catch up to these passing hi speed
>interstellar
>crafts.
>Might get from our sun to the nearest star in maybe only a couple of hundred
>thousand
>years! Who knows that might be enough time for the passengers to evolve into
>a
>new species!!

Neat, maybe they are already among us ...

I have some power laser, still considering
hanging it from some wires and pulsing the light to see if I can get it to swing.
Will let you know if it works.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:25:15 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote in <tf02u9$2ue70$1...@dont-email.me>:

>I have some power laser, still considering
>hanging it from some wires and pulsing the light to see if I can get it to swing.
>Will let you know if it works.

So, did a first simple test
http://panteltje.com/pub/laser_propulsion_test_1_IXIMG_0856.JPG
this laser is 1 W input, will burn (and did in the cardboard box) a hole in a piece of cardboard.
It looks like when I wait until it is 100 % steady hanging and then pulse the current
it does get a push, but could just as well be effect the earth magnetic field on the wires.
Thing is heavy, better get a free hanging diode only, and some more power.
Batteries empty from testing now... recharging.
Nice laser, from ebay, had it for years
Always wear protective glasses,
Never look into laser with remaining eye.

[Lou]

On Tuesday, 6 September 2022 at 09:34:04 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:25:15 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje

> <pN> wrote in <tf02me>:

> >I have some power laser, still considering
> >hanging it from some wires and pulsing the light to see if I can get it to swing.
> >Will let you know if it works.
> So, did a first simple test
> http://panteltje.com/pub/laser_propulsion_test_1_IXIMG_0856.JPG
> this laser is 1 W input, will burn (and did in the cardboard box) a hole in a piece of cardboard.
> It looks like when I wait until it is 100 % steady hanging and then pulse the current
> it does get a push, but could just as well be effect the earth magnetic field on the wires.

How about attaching the laser to something to keep it from moving,
point it downwards and , if you have one, project the beam onto one
of those digital electronic precision laboratory weigh scales?

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Sep 2022 01:32:10 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lou
<noeltu...@live.co.uk> wrote in
<385d1e28-7a8c-443d...@googlegroups.com>:

>On Tuesday, 6 September 2022 at 09:34:04 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:25:15 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
>> <pN> wrote in <tf02me>:
>> >I have some power laser, still considering
>> >hanging it from some wires and pulsing the light to see if I can get it to swing.
>> >Will let you know if it works.
>> So, did a first simple test
>> http://panteltje.com/pub/laser_propulsion_test_1_IXIMG_0856.JPG
>> this laser is 1 W input, will burn (and did in the cardboard box) a hole in a piece of cardboard.
>> It looks like when I wait until it is 100 % steady hanging and then pulse the current
>> it does get a push, but could just as well be effect the earth magnetic field on the wires.
>How about attaching the laser to something to keep it from moving,
>point it downwards and , if you have one, project the beam onto one
>of those digital electronic precision laboratory weigh scales?

Very good, I considered that.
In high school physics we had a tube with a rotating vane in it that you could get to rotate by shining a light on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer
read the text, its easy to mistake heat radiation in such a case for light pressure.

So I wanted to really measure any 'reaction force'.

Will be playing with it some more, maybe get a more powerful laser diode from ebay, but shipping takes a long time these days
If so, will post about it here.

Thank you for the feedback!

[Lou]

On Saturday, 10 September 2022 at 09:57:24 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Sep 2022 01:32:10 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lou

> <uk> wrote in

> ...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Tuesday, 6 September 2022 at 09:34:04 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:25:15 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
> >> <pN> wrote in <tf02me>:
> >> >I have some power laser, still considering
> >> >hanging it from some wires and pulsing the light to see if I can get it to swing.
> >> >Will let you know if it works.
> >> So, did a first simple test
> >> http://panteltje.com/pub/laser_propulsion_test_1_IXIMG_0856.JPG
> >> this laser is 1 W input, will burn (and did in the cardboard box) a hole in a piece of cardboard.
> >> It looks like when I wait until it is 100 % steady hanging and then pulse the current
> >> it does get a push, but could just as well be effect the earth magnetic field on the wires.
> >How about attaching the laser to something to keep it from moving,
> >point it downwards and , if you have one, project the beam onto one
> >of those digital electronic precision laboratory weigh scales?
> Very good, I considered that.
> In high school physics we had a tube with a rotating vane in it that you could get to rotate by shining a light on it:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer
> read the text, its easy to mistake heat radiation in such a case for light pressure.
>

Yes interesting subject. I notice in the link that local thermal air currents can distort
the readings. Hopefully these currents wouldn’t move your laser and contaminate
your measurements.

I did notice though that they did have a problem with explaining it for a while,
with even the drivelling relativists god Maxwell giving the wrong explanation! !
(Ha! I never agreed with Maxwells ‘electro’ component in his model of emr anyways.
For me light, and electricity, is just an oscillating or changing magnetic field.
The electric electron bit is fantasy. Proof is you can just rotate a magnet and generate
both electricity...and emr waves.)

However to get back to my point the reference says if it were light pressure
rather than heat radiation the vanes move in the opposite direction. That is
in Crookes radiometer the vanes rotate towards the light source whereas
light pressure predicts they should rotate away from the source.
So if you do have electronic precision scales and tried measuring the force
then I assume you could distinguish which effect is at play.
That is: If it’s light pressure the scale would record extra weight.
Or: If it’s heat radiation...the scale should measure a weight loss, assuming
the same effects from Crookes radiometer are at play.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Sep 2022 05:45:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lou
<noeltu...@live.co.uk> wrote in
<e345120c-3bf0-4619...@googlegroups.com>:

>(Ha! I never agreed with Maxwells component in his

>model of emr anyways.
>For me light, and electricity, is just an oscillating or changing magnetic field.
>The
>electric electron bit is fantasy. Proof is you can just rotate a magnet
>and generate
>both electricity...and emr waves.)

If Le Sage particles exist we could combine gravity with EM radiation IF
magnetism is just a property of those particles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation

IIRC Einstein came from a family that ran an electric engineering company.
That company failed in 1896, then they moved to Milan and did a bit better.
As P = i^2.R and e = m.c^2 there is a deep link in Einstein's neural net (brain structure)
something about the way of thinking...
Electronics cannot be understood without electrons (I am in electronics),
for example the vacuum tube should not be able to carry current as i = U / R
for R is infinite. But the electrons form the current like water molecules in a stream or pipe.
General relativity WITHOUT a mechanism, without a particle, is useless mathematical crap
leads to divide by zero and singularities...
In a Le Sage theory at least we have particles, so analog to the electrons.
As to photon, that is where our detection problem is
we measure with matter as we know it, Planck's constant,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck
I have some nice PMTs and done a lot of testing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photomultiplier_tube
and see it this way:
Our detector is a ball on a wire in a pool (analog to the electron connected to some atomic nucleus)
At SOME level of that wave in the pool the wire breaks and the ball is released and we can detect that
like we see an electron is released in the PMT if enough wave energy hits it.
But that energy, those EM waves DO NOT HAVE TO BE QUANTISIZED at the level of the ball-nucleus strength
So even Planck warned to not look at things that way.
From that and parotting Einstein's FIELD theory that denies a particle like a Le Sage one and gives NO
mechanical (if you will) explanation, we are now stuck in physics and cosmology by Einstein parroting
clowns who do a divide by zero, stating singularities exist..
IN NATURE ALWAYS SOMETHING BREAKS DOWN, no singularities CAN exist.

>However to get back to my point the reference says if it were light pressure
>rather
>than heat radiation the vanes move in the opposite direction. That is
>in
>Crookes radiometer the vanes rotate towards the light source whereas
>light pressure predicts they should rotate away from the source.
>So if you do have electronic precision scales and tried measuring the force
>then I assume you could distinguish which effect is at play.
>That is: If it's light pressure the scale would record extra weight.
>Or:
>If it's heat radiation...the scale should measure a weight loss,
>assuming
>the same effects from Crookes radiometer are at play.

I was thinking if I hit those scales with the laser and heated material evaporates, than that
causes the scales to display a bigger value, making it more difficult to see the difference

]/ ejected smoke ->
]================= laser beam
]\ ejected smoke->
This pushes the scales to the left, as does the laser beam.

[Jan Panteltje]

PS
I found this site
http://umdberg.pbworks.com/w/page/50455623/Momentum%20of%20a%20laser%20beam

and it gives 3.4 pico Newtons for a 1 mW laser pointer
My 1W laser will thus generate 1000 times as much, or 3.4 micro Newtons.

Bit afraid of using higher power lasers...
But let's say a focused 1000 W light bulb would generate 3.4 milli Newtons...
?

[Lou]

On Saturday, 17 September 2022 at 14:33:34 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> PS

Imagine then your pool/electron analogy. The pool is the vacuum, the waves in the
water the light waves. The atoms are a row of buckets at the edge of the pool that only fill
if the water level rises above the level of the pool surface. Which they do when each wave
hits the row of buckets. The buckets auto empty into an external pipe when each bucket is
full.
You thus have a mechanical system, replicating right down to the atomic
level what happens when wave light hits the detector and transmits energy to
the circuit.

This sounds reasonable. But why are you doing this? Isn’t it already
an accepted fact that a laser can supply the push for a spacecraft
in lieu of the solar sail?
Here’s a quote from the wiki Solar Sail page:
“A useful analogy to solar sailing may be a sailing boat; the light exerting a force on the mirrors is akin to a sail being blown by the wind. High-energy laser beams could be used as an alternative light source to exert much greater force than would be possible using sunlight, a concept known as beam sailing.”

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Sep 2022 09:45:12 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lou
<noeltu...@live.co.uk> wrote in
<5797a3e0-d5e7-46f6...@googlegroups.com>:

>On Saturday, 17 September 2022 at 14:33:34 UTC+1, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> PS
>
>Imagine then your pool/electron analogy. The pool is the vacuum, the waves in
>the
>water the light waves. The atoms are a row of buckets at the edge of the pool
>that only fill
>if the water level rises above the level of the pool surface. Which they do
>when each wave
>hits the row of buckets. The buckets auto empty into an external pipe when each
>bucket is
>full.
>You thus have a mechanical system, replicating right down to the atomic
>level what happens when wave light hits the detector and transmits energy to
>the
>circuit.
>> I found this site
>> http://umdberg.pbworks.com/w/page/50455623/Momentum%20of%20a%20laser%20beam
>>
>>
>and it gives 3.4 pico Newtons for a 1 mW laser pointer
>> My 1W laser will thus generate 1000 times as much, or 3.4 micro Newtons.
>>
>>
>Bit afraid of using higher power lasers...
>> But let's say a focused 1000 W light bulb would generate 3.4 milli Newtons...
>>
>?

>This sounds reasonable. But why are you doing this? Isn=E2=80=99t it already

>an
>accepted fact that a laser can supply the push for a spacecraft
>in lieu of the solar sail?

>Here=E2=80=99s a quote from the wiki Solar Sail page:
>=E2=80=9CA useful analogy to solar sailing may be a sailing boat; the light

>exerting a force on the mirrors is akin to a sail being blown by the wind.
>High-energy laser beams could be used as an alternative light source to exert
>much greater force than would be possible using sunlight, a concept known

>as beam sailing.=E2=80=9D

Sure, but nothing like experimenting and hands on discovering things,