Moon and Earth share water source

[John Curtis]

http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/05/moonwater
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Earth-and-Moon-Sharing-a-Drink-206859621.html

One explanation for the low deuterium/hydrogen ratio in ocean water
is based on the D/H ratio of hydrogen trapped in midocean
ridge basalts (tholeites). The ratio here is 77% lower than in ocean
water.
In addition to elevated deuterium, tholeites contain elevated amounts
of
primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial
origin of hydrogen.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X7690118
Lowest D/H ratios in the solar system are found in the Sun,Jupiter
and Saturn:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/MESSII/9038.pdf
John Curtis

[John Curtis]

On May 17, 10:28 am, John Curtis <j...@curtis.ms> wrote:
> http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/05/moonwaterhttp://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Earth-and-Moon-Sharing-a-Drink-20...

>
> One explanation for the low deuterium/hydrogen ratio in ocean water
> is based on the D/H ratio of hydrogen trapped in midocean
> ridge basalts (tholeites). The ratio here is 77% lower than in ocean
> water.
> In addition to elevated deuterium, tholeites contain elevated amounts
> of
> primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial

> origin of hydrogen.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X7690118

> Lowest D/H ratios in the solar system are found in the Sun,Jupiter
> and Saturn:http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/MESSII/9038.pdf
> John Curtis

Corrected link to Science Direct

http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/05/moonwater
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Earth-and-Moon-Sharing-a-Drink-206859621.html

One explanation for the low deuterium/hydrogen ratio in ocean water
is based on the D/H ratio of hydrogen trapped in midocean
ridge basalts (tholeites). The ratio here is 77% lower than in ocean
water.
In addition to elevated deuterium, tholeites contain elevated amounts
of
primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial
origin of hydrogen.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X76901187

[Yousuf Khan]

On 17/05/2013 11:28 PM, John Curtis wrote:
> http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/05/moonwater
> http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Earth-and-Moon-Sharing-a-Drink-206859621.html
>
> One explanation for the low deuterium/hydrogen ratio in ocean water
> is based on the D/H ratio of hydrogen trapped in midocean
> ridge basalts (tholeites). The ratio here is 77% lower than in ocean
> water.

But the article up above doesn't mention anything about tholeites being
the cause of the low D/H ratios. They do mention that carbonaceous
chondrite meteorites having the same ratio as the Earth and the Moon,
thus implying that the Earth and Moon came from the same source.

> In addition to elevated deuterium, tholeites contain elevated amounts
> of
> primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial
> origin of hydrogen.

How are those things related to D/H ratios? I'm not doubting you, just
wondering what the relationship is?

> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X7690118
> Lowest D/H ratios in the solar system are found in the Sun,Jupiter
> and Saturn:
> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/MESSII/9038.pdf

Well, that might make sense as in those high gravitation bodies, much of
the D would likely sink to the centers of those bodies, making their
surface detection less likely.

Yousuf Khan

[David Levy]

There is a simple answer for that:
The Earth & the Moon were born from a similar matter at the same time.




--
David Levy

[John Curtis]

On May 18, 1:58 am, Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 17/05/2013 11:28 PM, John Curtis wrote:
>
> >http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/05/moonwater

> >http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/Earth-and-Moon-Sharing-a-Drink-20...

>
> > One explanation for the low deuterium/hydrogen ratio in ocean water
> > is based on the D/H ratio of hydrogen trapped in midocean
> > ridge basalts (tholeites). The ratio here is 77% lower than in ocean
> > water.
>
> But the article up above doesn't mention anything about tholeites being
> the cause of the low D/H ratios. They do mention that carbonaceous
> chondrite meteorites having the same ratio as the Earth and the Moon,
> thus implying that the Earth and Moon came from the same source.
>

Low D/H is also present in the Sun, which makes the Sun a potential
source.
Trapping of solar hydrogen in tholeitic basalt, suggest a reservoir
of solar
hydrogen in Earth's interior. Similar process in the Moon may have
contributed
to low D/H water in mare basalts.

>
> > In addition to elevated deuterium, tholeites contain elevated amounts
> > of
>

Correction: elevated deuterium should read low deuterium.

>
> > primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial
> > origin of hydrogen.
>
> How are those things related to D/H ratios? I'm not doubting you, just
> wondering what the relationship is?
>

Helium-3 and neon-20 are solar gases. Their association with low D/H
hydrogen implicate a solar origin for this hydrogen.

[John Curtis]

On May 18, 1:50 am, David Levy <David.Levy.bdd3...@spacebanter.com>
wrote:

Agreed. John Curtis

[Yousuf Khan]

On 19/05/2013 2:38 PM, John Curtis wrote:
> On May 18, 1:58 am, Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
>> But the article up above doesn't mention anything about tholeites being
>> the cause of the low D/H ratios. They do mention that carbonaceous
>> chondrite meteorites having the same ratio as the Earth and the Moon,
>> thus implying that the Earth and Moon came from the same source.
>>
> Low D/H is also present in the Sun, which makes the Sun a potential
> source.
> Trapping of solar hydrogen in tholeitic basalt, suggest a reservoir
> of solar
> hydrogen in Earth's interior. Similar process in the Moon may have
> contributed
> to low D/H water in mare basalts.

My understanding is that deuterium is low on the gas giant planets and
The Sun, simply because deuterium is heavier than hydrogen so it sinks
down to the center, where it's not detectable as a surface gas. Since we
only analyze the surface spectra of these bodies, we don't see much D.
This is also what I stated previously below in this quote:

>>>> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0012821X7690118
>>>> Lowest D/H ratios in the solar system are found in the Sun,Jupiter
>>>> and Saturn:
>>>> http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/MESSII/9038.pdf
>>>
>>> Well, that might make sense as in those high gravitation bodies, much of
>>> the D would likely sink to the centers of those bodies, making their
>>> surface detection less likely.
>>>
>>> Yousuf Khan


>>> primordial helium-3 and primordial neon-20, which point to primordial
>>> origin of hydrogen.
>>
>> How are those things related to D/H ratios? I'm not doubting you, just
>> wondering what the relationship is?
>>
> Helium-3 and neon-20 are solar gases. Their association with low D/H
> hydrogen implicate a solar origin for this hydrogen.

Well, apart from the obvious fact that all of H & D originated from the
same gas cloud that coalesced to form this solar system, I don't see how
the Sun could possibly supply enough of either H or D to supply the
inner planets and asteroids?

The solar wind does provide a steady stream of hydrogen isotopes into
the Earth's atmosphere, as it gets trapped in our magnetic field, but
it's not enough to provide all of this water. How much solar hydrogen
comes into our atmosphere each year, via the magnetic field entrapment?
I'm guessing at most it can be counted in the kilograms, maybe even
single-digit tons. Yes, over billions of years it'll add up, but then
that would mean we've just recently gotten enough hydrogen to form the
oceans to start evolving single-cell organisms, certainly not sentient
beings already. Also the Solar wind was much weaker in the past than
now, the Sun is much more powerful now and thus able to supply even more
particles in its solar wind. Thus it would've been slow to start.

Yousuf Khan

[John Curtis]

A reservoir of solar hydrogen was trapped inside planetary interiors
as
exemplified by juvenile (magmatic) water at Kilauea:
http://www.hawaiimagazine.com/blogs/hawaii_today/2008/3/26/volcano_pressconf
Juvenile water has D/H ratio approaching the Sun and 18O/16O ratio
approaching the atmosphere; a consequence of solar (primordial)
hydrogen reacting with atmospheric oxygen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magmatic_water
John Curtis

[Yousuf Khan]

On 30/05/2013 8:03 PM, John Curtis wrote:
> A reservoir of solar hydrogen was trapped inside planetary interiors
> as
> exemplified by juvenile (magmatic) water at Kilauea:
> http://www.hawaiimagazine.com/blogs/hawaii_today/2008/3/26/volcano_pressconf
> Juvenile water has D/H ratio approaching the Sun and 18O/16O ratio
> approaching the atmosphere; a consequence of solar (primordial)
> hydrogen reacting with atmospheric oxygen:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magmatic_water
> John Curtis

But there was no atmospheric oxygen until life first evolved and started
converting carbon dioxide into oxygen. The life that first created the
oxygen would also have needed to have a source of water to first start
living. If the water were created by hydrogen mixing with atmospheric
oxygen, then you need the water to be already there to support the life
that would create the oxygen. Circular logic.

Yousuf Khan

[John Curtis]

On May 31, 7:49 am, Yousuf Khan <bbb...@spammenot.yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 30/05/2013 8:03 PM, John Curtis wrote:
>
> > A reservoir of solar hydrogen was trapped inside planetary interiors
> > as
> > exemplified by juvenile (magmatic) water at Kilauea:

> >http://www.hawaiimagazine.com/blogs/hawaii_today/2008/3/26/volcano_pr...

> > Juvenile water has D/H ratio approaching the Sun and 18O/16O ratio
> > approaching the atmosphere; a consequence of solar (primordial)
> > hydrogen reacting with atmospheric oxygen:
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magmatic_water
> > John Curtis
>
> But there was no atmospheric oxygen until life first evolved and started
> converting carbon dioxide into oxygen. The life that first created the
> oxygen would also have needed to have a source of water to first start
> living. If the water were created by hydrogen mixing with atmospheric
> oxygen, then you need the water to be already there to support the life
> that would create the oxygen. Circular logic.
>
>         Yousuf Khan
>

Indeed. Archaean water must have been similar to the water in the Sun.
http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_atob.php
Because of excess oxygen-16 in the Sun, the 18O/16O ratio in
sun-water must be lower than in juvenile water:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110706094335.htm
Nevertheless the D/H ratio should be the same for all three waters:
Sun, archaean and juvenile. John Curtis