No Astromart Ad Without Login Account
Shneor Sherman
account". I prefer not to have login accounts - just more junk to remember,
you also have to have cookies enabled to "use the features". Fortunately,
there's an alternative - Mark W.'s Astronomy Mall. Looks as though that's
where I will be looking and posting. This Astromart change is really
disappointing. Ron Wodaski (hope I got the spelling right), why are you folks
doing this? Shneor Sherman
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Herb York
news:937etr$ojd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Shneor,
We are trying to reduce fraud. Bottom line there are bad guys out there. We
see complaints on a regular basis.
We (the community) has a choice to make. WE can just let anyone post
whatever they want as some do or we can be involved like we are now and try
to monitor every post and make sure that the buyers receive as much
information as possible before you sent $$$$$$$ to someone you don't know.
It is much easier for us to just let any and all posts go through.
Your choice - I know it would save me at least 1-2 hours a day to just let
all posts go on the site with no monitoring.
Herb
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
Anacortes Telescope and Wild Bird
(360)588-9000
(800)850-2001
Space Traveler
Thanks Herb:
You provide a great service. I could not agree with you more and I
appreciate the effort. You have a great site and it has worked well
for me as both a buyer and seller. I myself will not be changing to
Astronomy Mall, they don't seem to have the traffic you do.
I have several ways I remember passwords and log in names. I have
standard ones for low security and others for high security. All my
stock and banking names passwords are the high security and longer.
For the less secure I have another name and easier password. I know
that you can download programs off the web to keep track of this kind
of thing. But I just think of all the phone numbers in my head then I
realize it is really not that big of a deal.
Just goes to show you that if you give something away someone will
bitch.
>
>
>Shneor,
>We are trying to reduce fraud. Bottom line there are bad guys out there. We
>see complaints on a regular basis.
>We (the community) has a choice to make. WE can just let anyone post
>whatever they want as some do or we can be involved like we are now and try
>to monitor every post and make sure that the buyers receive as much
>information as possible before you sent $$$$$$$ to someone you don't know.
>It is much easier for us to just let any and all posts go through.
>Your choice - I know it would save me at least 1-2 hours a day to just let
>all posts go on the site with no monitoring.
>Herb
>www.BuyTelescopes.com
>www.AstroMart.com
>Anacortes Telescope and Wild Bird
>(360)588-9000
>(800)850-2001
>
Space Traveler
Ron Wodaski
non-login access to Astromart is a security loophole and we need to close
that loophole to protect Astromart users. My very first priority with
Astromart is to make sure that buyers are protected as much as possible.
Knowing who you are dealing with is pretty high on that list.
Rip-off artists have been using the ability to post ads without logging in
to create multiple identities, and it's no fun at all when something you've
paid for doesn't show up. Having had to personally deal with the anger and
hurt that results from these abuses, I want to do something about it.
I recognize that this create a problem for some users. I'd like to come up
with something that both helps protect against fraud, and provides you with
what you feel is appropriate. I sent you private email earlier encouraging
you to either correspond with me about this, or phone me, in order to work
out something that balances what's at stake here.
I did not do this arbitrarily; protecting Astromart users is number one on
my list. Can we come up with a solution that works for all? Let's see what
we can accomplish. I'm open to ideas here, as long as you understand that we
need to find a balance point between safety and your preferences.
I'll give you all a little background into the "behind the scenes" situation
at Astromart; it might help clarify some of the policies on the site.
* When we allowed login and non-login posting of ads, the rip-off artists
who did use a login were rapidly uncovered and dealt with.
* They immediately started creating false identities for each ad, to try to
hide themselves in sheer numbers. This is easy to do when you can type in
different info for every ad.
* We got some help from Astromart users in picking out the problem
individuals, but not enough to solve the problem.
Thus, the current changes. A login requires someone to create a record of
who they are. We believe very strongly that any individual selling stuff on
Astromart should be willing to tell potential buyers who they are. We expect
buyers to check out the seller -- is the phone number legitimate? Does a
person really live at the address? Is the address real? The ability to know
who the seller is also contributes to better support after the sale if there
is a problem. We strongly encourage sellers to tell buyers how to reach
them.
With the new system, it's pretty much one computer, one login. This provides
much better assurance to the buyer that the person they are buying from is
real and accountable. It makes it much harder for anyone to take advantage
of an Astromart buyer. I think that this has tremendous value to Astromart
users. As an Astromart user/buyer/seller myself, I really like the idea of
doing something to protect the people who use the system in good faith.
There are a few more changes to come to make Astromart a safe place to do
business, and we expect that most of our users will see these as positive
changes.
As a programmer, I think I'm pretty familiar with cookies. I don't know how
I can be any clearer than this: we use cookies to store your name, address,
and login info. We do NOTHING to abuse your trust; this information is
strictly there for buyers and sellers to communicate with one another, and
to make the many cool features of Astromart possible. We don't ever send
email to Astromart users; we never give the contact info to any company, not
even to ATWB which Herb owns. We take our role as custodians of Astromart
incredibly seriously, which is why I have no hesitation in putting Astromart
together the way I have. It works, and it works FOR THE CUSTOMER. Our
"official position" on cookies is that they are safe, incredibly useful, and
that Astromart does and will continue to use them.
Now I know I can't please everyone. But I also know I've done everything I
can to make Astromart safe, secure, and a good place to swap and shop. Like
any free service, it's there to serve the needs of the greatest number of
users. We understand that some of the choices we make won't make everyone
happy, but we do try to strike a balance. There were requests for non-cookie
access, and we listened and made that possible. Unfortunately, it turned
into a security loophole and how we are closing that loophole to protect
Astromart users.
Herb is out of town on vacation, so I'm taking this on myself to explain
what we do and why we do it. I'm sure if I've missed any important points
Herb will fill that in when he gets back from vacation.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:937etr$ojd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
tony_...@my-deja.com
> Shneor,
> We are trying to reduce fraud. Bottom line there are bad guys out
there. We
> see complaints on a regular basis.
Well, I use Astromart all the time and even though login acounts are a
hassle I am glad they decided to go this route. While almost all my
deals have turned out well I did get burned recently with an Astromart
seller. At least with a login account it is easier to track these
people and also easier to ban them from placing more ads.
Mine was not to bad a deal considering I did get the scope and it
simply not at all in the condition expected or described. I played it
smart and used a well known seller, asked plenty of questions and was
still a victim or misrepresentation. The item was worth the money spent
but not what I agreed to buy. As I am still negotiating with this
seller I can't mention his name but he is not posting any adds until
this is resolved it seems.
Fraud happens all the time and any steps a Web Host can take to protect
us is welcome by me. Had I been truely ripped of and received nothing
the seller could at least be tracked and banned from the site so others
would not fall victim as well.
Thanks,
Tony
Mike Simmons
It's impossible to please everyone though you guys have tried very hard
to do just that. The vast majority seem to be pleased with the changes
(cookies and all) but I know if that changes you will accommodate the
users' desires. There is nothing more than anyone could ask or expect.
I know you've received many thanks for your efforts but not enough,
IMHO, so thanks again!
Mike Simmons
Occasional but very pleased Astromart user
pne...@erols.com
It appears you are correct. You used to be able to ignore the login
deal, but apparently no more.
I too will look on Astronomy Mall from now on. Even if the traffic is
less, the hassles will be less as well.
Pat Nealy
On Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:51:24 GMT, Shneor Sherman <shn...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
james lacey
two dozen transactions via astromart as a buyer
and a seller.
I find the new site no more difficult to use or more
of a hassle than the old one.
As a Java programmer who works on Enterprise
class internet applications I can tell you that the
new Astromart is a much safer spot to shop for,
sell, and buy used astro gear. Of course Ron could
make astromart even more secure, but I think that
the new astromart is a good balance betweem security
and convenience.
In any case what I have always liked about astormart
is that for the most part you tend to deal with knowledgable
astro-nuts who know what good quality astro-gear should
sell for. It's always a hassle when dealing with buyers on
ebay who just don't understand why you want $1700 for
that one year old mint G-11.
I say keep up the good work Ron and Herb. I will still
use Astromart, but forgive me if once in a while I do
go check out the ads at asronomy mall. I like to see
if I can spot fraudulent ads :-}
Andrea Merritt
I'd rather have to remember a password than deal with a fraudulent
buyer/seller. Of course, this will not catch'em all - but even one less is a
victory. Plus, the ads from dealers misrepresenting themselves as private
parties was getting VERY annoying. Cear Skies!! Andrea
Peter Besenbruch
<rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>With the new system, it's pretty much one computer, one login.
Unless, of course you write protect the Netscape cookie file, making
cookies session only. You can do something similar by deleting all the
cookie files for Internet Explorer. Then all one needs to do is do a
proxy login for each item you want to sell. I just don't see the
benefits, Ron.
__________________________________________________________
http:// www.hawastsoc.org/ (Hawaiian Astronomical Society)
http:// www.hawastsoc.org/deepsky/ (Deepsky Atlas)
djmetzger
a way. Is a forward thinking company trying to accomplish a responsible task
to provide a better product or service? Yes, in a way.
Thanks for the forward though and for the effort to try and help the honest
shopper.
DJ
"james lacey" <jla...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:3A5769B8...@flash.net...
William Falcone
> Your choice - I know it would save me at least 1-2 hours a day to just let
> all posts go on the site with no monitoring.
> Herb
Herb:
If monitoring is something that is done everyday. How is that the other
day a person selling Aries Mak's was referring to AP's web site for a
description of their scope. When in fact they have no affiliation with
AP nor does the scope they are selling. In my mind this is blatant
fraud.
Bill
Shneor Sherman
that happen as a result of a security incident. And what about these rumors
of tracking software that reports back the next few sites you visit to
Astromart? I have been a happy Astromart user almost from when it began. I
have been supportive of the new regime (and I have correspondence from Herb
York and Rod Wodaski to prove that). But this - login IDs and passwords - is
pointless for the purposes mentioned. Ron says that 90% of the fraud on
Astromart is perpetrated through PayPal. OK, tell users they use PayPal at
their own risk - tell Astromart users not to use PayPal because of the
potential for fraud. Voila - you have eliminated 90% of the fraud if people
listen. If not, whose fault is that? You cannot protect people from
themselves. It makes one wonder if there is not another reason for the IDs...
Clear skies, Shneor Sherman
In article <TqlXOpF4HV7K0JKE=22+bc...@4ax.com>,
Kip
have spoken with many locals that regard Anancortes Telescopes as a good
resource place for equipment & mail order. To have a good reputation as a
company you need to protect your "interest". If and when something reflects
on ones' company, things can either go bad or good depending on the
situation. Anacortes advertises on Sky & Telescope and other various places
to get the "word" around. It wouldn't benefit Anacortes too much if their
"subsidiary" Astromart was plagued with fraudulent activities. To protect
the name Astromart also protects Anacortes which is the Yorks' bread and
butter. Though the Astromart ads are basically free, there are some
pre-cautions to be done to help protect the future users. This
responsibility was taken by Anacortes to make sure they come back to utilize
their service. If one is required to have an account to use the ad section
on Astromart to help weed out the "bad", then what is wrong with that? I
would gladly be burdened with the extra second or two to "log" on if it were
to help deter fraud of any kind. I would be grateful as would anyone else if
they were deciding to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars. If we get
pinched on a deal we tend to place some blame on the people that set up the
ad and Astromart/Anacortes can't really afford that. Anacortes's reputation
as a dealer has come up some and they probably know this. It basically is a
good business tactic to "protect" their assets...which is us.
Clear skies!
KIP
Peter Besenbruch <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:TqlXOpF4HV7K0JKE=22+bc...@4ax.com...
Peter Besenbruch
>To have a good reputation as a
>company you need to protect your "interest". If and when something reflects
>on ones' company, things can either go bad or good depending on the
>situation.
My point had nothing to do with Anacortes reputation. My point was
that the measures they have taken to limit fraud on Astromart will not
work. They are too easy to defeat.
George
'safer'. As someone currently undergoing the hassle/stress of a less than
scrupulous seller, I am all for log-ins and more.
Believe me the extra effort if remembering and signing-in is much less than
going the route of seeking remedy under mail-fraud etc. IMHO.
Thanks for your help and support Herb & Ron.
George.
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:937etr$ojd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Herb York
news:3A57B6CF...@optiguy.com...
> Herb:
> If monitoring is something that is done everyday. How is that the other
> day a person selling Aries Mak's was referring to AP's web site for a
> description of their scope. When in fact they have no affiliation with
> AP nor does the scope they are selling. In my mind this is blatant
> fraud.
> Bill
I saw it - I didn't care for it either but he is (as of this moment) a
paying sponsor.
Herb
www.AstroMart.com
Ron Wodaski
Astromart_ actually have the level of web expertise required? I happen to
know the answer to that pretty accurately because I have to follow up on
every case. We are making a smart move; it will in fact discourage real
perpetrators. This is like putting locks on your doors and windows. If other
web sites are willing to operate without that protection, that is their
choice. Astromart is important to the amateur community, and we will do
whatever we can to make it a safe place to do business.
On a personal note, if I were just a customer (as I was before I built the
Astromart site), I would prefer to do my business at a location that takes
precautions. That would be much more important to me than the issues around
cookies!
I do appreciate the comments in this thread, though. It's always good to
consider the issues around security carefully, and I think that we've struck
a pretty good balance between security and ease of use. I'll keep an ear out
to see how well the new system works for Astromart users, and we'll continue
to adapt it to make it work as well as we can.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:TtpXOgAvyv3=yKamz0mb...@4ax.com...
Space Traveler
On Sun, 07 Jan 2001 00:44:56 GMT, Shneor Sherman <shn...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>Exactly. Not to mention copying the cookie and transferring it...or having
Space Traveler
Space Traveler
<rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It's not that black and white. How many people intending to commit fraud _on
>Astromart_ actually have the level of web expertise required? I happen to
>know the answer to that pretty accurately because I have to follow up on
>every case. We are making a smart move; it will in fact discourage real
>perpetrators. This is like putting locks on your doors and windows. If other
>web sites are willing to operate without that protection, that is their
>choice. Astromart is important to the amateur community, and we will do
>whatever we can to make it a safe place to do business.
>
>On a personal note, if I were just a customer (as I was before I built the
>Astromart site), I would prefer to do my business at a location that takes
>precautions. That would be much more important to me than the issues around
>cookies!
>
>I do appreciate the comments in this thread, though. It's always good to
>consider the issues around security carefully, and I think that we've struck
>a pretty good balance between security and ease of use. I'll keep an ear out
>to see how well the new system works for Astromart users, and we'll continue
>to adapt it to make it work as well as we can.
Ron:
Thank you for the effort. Astromart is great and I feel it has
improved in the last few months. It does load faster! I like the Log
in and your reason for it. Any system can be beat, at least you are
trying to do something. For this my hat is off to you.
I for one know that it would be easy for you to do like so many others
and say, "the deals are between two private party's and we have
nothing to do with the fraud".
I like to think that I am smart enough to remember a log in and
password. Feel welcome to put all the cookies on my hard drive you
wish. Large drives are cheep and cookies are small.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you,
Space Traveler
Blandp1
simply causes the rip-off artist to have to create a new false identity each
time a fraud is commited or at least attempted. This is hardly a deterent.
E-mail addresses are easy to set up, and free. Anonymous web surfing (using
any number of services, some of which are free) is simple so even finding the
ISP of the prepetrator is difficult. As an example, E-bay does all that ATWB
proposes and rip-offs are still rampent.
What creating a "login" record does do very well, however, is give ATWB a handy
address list of a group of people who are interested in astronomical goods.
This list is very valuable to them both for it's value as a sellable item, and
as a tool for use in their marketing.
Philip J. Blanda III
PGP Public key available
Herb York
news:20010107102428...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> Adding the requirement to "login" does very little to reduce fraud. At
best it
> simply causes the rip-off artist to have to create a new false identity
each
> time a fraud is commited or at least attempted. This is hardly a
deterent.
> E-mail addresses are easy to set up, and free. Anonymous web surfing
(using
> any number of services, some of which are free) is simple so even finding
the
> ISP of the prepetrator is difficult. As an example, E-bay does all that
ATWB
> proposes and rip-offs are still rampent.
One thing it DOES do is give the buyer reason for concern and hopefully the
buyer will think twice about sending money to a PO box with no phone number
and required to pay in money order or "pay pal". At least I would hope they
would think twice.
We are not your mother but we are trying to give you some basic information
so you can make an informed decision on where and to whom you are sending
your hard earned money. If a person is going to send their money to someone
that won't give basic information then we can't stop them.
>
> What creating a "login" record does do very well, however, is give ATWB a
handy
> address list of a group of people who are interested in astronomical
goods.
> This list is very valuable to them both for it's value as a sellable item,
and
> as a tool for use in their marketing.
>
> Philip J. Blanda III
If you are going to make an accusation then make it Phillip. Do you have any
knowledge of ATWB using the information in ANY inappropriate manner?
Herb York
Anacortes Telescope
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
tony_...@my-deja.com
> What creating a "login" record does do very well, however, is give
ATWB a handy
> address list of a group of people who are interested in astronomical
goods.
> This list is very valuable to them both for it's value as a sellable
item, and
> as a tool for use in their marketing.
Heaven forbid if Herb and Anacortes find out I am into Astronomy. Last
thing I need is someone offering me a great products at good
prices.....protect us all! <g>
Tony
Rick F
People with Logon Mania and Cookie Phobia need to get over it or just
stay off the net. While you're at it, terminate you telephone
service, stop answering the door bell and unplug your TV. Or maybe
relocate to the South Pole - no salesman will call.
That's the view from my scope.
Rick
Shneor Sherman
login id? Clear skies, Shneor Sherman
In article <97888687...@mirror.fidalgo.net>,
james lacey
ever I see this thread.
If people only knew how many cookies are really being
used on the internet, then maybe they wouldn't be so
concerned about it.
And just to rant a little I don't understand this argument
that seems to go something like, "Well, the login accounts
don't absolutely guarantee that fraud will not occur so
they are more of a nuisance than anything else."
Couldn't you say the same thing about the locks on
your doors? They don't absolutely guarantee that
someone will not break into your house. So, are you
going to go to work tomorrow and leave your doors
unlocked? Have them taken off of your doors
completely? Why not? They are a nuisance aren't
they?
See ya.
Peter Besenbruch
wrote:
>Couldn't you say the same thing about the locks on
>your doors? They don't absolutely guarantee that
>someone will not break into your house. So, are you
>going to go to work tomorrow and leave your doors
>unlocked? Have them taken off of your doors
>completely? Why not? They are a nuisance aren't
>they?
The analogy isn't that good, for almost any kind of house lock will
give better protection than what Astromart is proposing. They would
need to reject logins from certain IP addresses known to be
anonymizing proxies. They should also reject out of hand any E-mail
address from Hotmail, Excite, or the rest of the free Web based E-mail
accounts. The person selling would need to provide a real phone
number, and a bona fide address, ones that could be cross checked.
These measures would reduce fraud. The use of cookies and logins will
not help, were never designed for that purpose. Cookies allow a
certain measure of convenience, and also allow the tracking of a
person's browsing habits. Logins allow the creation of a saleable
mailing list. To make the analogy: I am concerned about people
breaking into my house, therefore I will buy a cutting board.<g>
Shneor Sherman
meaningful account is established, some means of identifying the user is
utilized. But if I can establish an new login account every time I wish (and
erase the old cookie before establishing my new account each time), the login
ID is worthless in preventing fraud. In any event, Astromart has the e-mail
addess of the sender. (When replies bounce from a seller's e-mail address,
Astromart staff currently removes the ad.) It's also very to easy to
establish multiple e-mail addresses, so someone who wanted to commit fraud
could easilt do so by using a new e-mail address with a new login ID each
time. And it's no problem to erase the cookie.
How to establish trust and avoid some of the "fraud"? If buyers repost a
successful transaction to Astromart for a particular e-mail address, and this
happens a (arbitrary number, maybe 2? 3?) number of times, then that e-mail
address can be considered "trusted". Any new ads posted from that e-mail
address are considered to be OK. Other ads will come with a disclaimer. I
think that's less onerous and less intrusive from a privacy point of view. If
you are not concerned about your privacy, you should be. The federal and many
state governments have enacted and will continue to enact privacy legislation
because of the very real dangers posed by breach of privacy, especially on
the internet. Clear skies, Shneor Sherman In article
<3A58BC14...@flash.net>, james lacey <jla...@flash.net> wrote:
> If people only knew how many cookies are really being
> used on the internet, then maybe they wouldn't be so
> concerned about it.
>
> And just to rant a little I don't understand this argument
> that seems to go something like, "Well, the login accounts
> don't absolutely guarantee that fraud will not occur so
> they are more of a nuisance than anything else."
>
>
--
"Free Astro Classifieds at www.astronomy-mall.com"
tony_...@my-deja.com
> People with Logon Mania and Cookie Phobia need to get over it or just
> stay off the net. While you're at it, terminate you telephone
> service, stop answering the door bell and unplug your TV. Or maybe
> relocate to the South Pole - no salesman will call.
>
South Pole! Are you kidding? With that big hole in the ozone layer it
isn't safe there either. While we are at it what are we doing looking
into the depths of space ahyway? No safety there, way to scarey. I'm
staying inside under the basement steps.....of course then there are
the spiders to think about, and the dust <g>
Tony
Ron Wodaski
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Space Traveler" <pos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:rk0h5tg30fqvi6idu...@4ax.com...
Ron Wodaski
Astromart. The combination of what we are doing, plus basic precaution on
the buyer's part, offers exactly what you propose (less the IP addresses,
which is a good idea, and we will look into adding that one).
I also think I'll make sure that the user's guide page is clear about the
email accounts. Thanks for the useful information, I'll pass it on.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:B+NYOveLx5OpHZ...@4ax.com...
Ron Wodaski
page here. You might want to suspend judgment until we've got all the pieces
in place.
And please understand that part of our security effort is to NOT broadcast
everything we do to protect security of Astromart Users. Just as it is
easier to pick a lock if you know the manufacturer, it is easier to commit
fraud if you have knowledge of how the system works. So while we will be
choosing from a menu of choices, we don't intend to disclose all of the
choices we make. This helps us weed out the less sophisticated abusers, and
they are the majority.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93aouc$6ec$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
james lacey
once they are in the house :-o
I see your point, but cookies were introduced into
HTTP to acheive state in what is essentially a stateless
protocol. Not to turn this into the HTTP working group
list or anything, but the problems that you describe are
not with cookies per say, rather how they are being used.
A cookies main chore, when first conceived, was to allow
state information about a client's session to be maintained
over multiple connections by the client to the web server.
However, cookies were designed to be extremely generic
and hence the "creative" abuses that have followed.
The only way to be truly secure on the web is to use SSL
and trusted certificate servers. If people are whining about
having to create a little login account with astromart, then
how are they going to feel about having to set up an account
with a trusted certificate server that is responsible for verifying
that a person is who they say they are. I mean heck. Not even
that eauction site does that.
Let's face it. What Ron and Herb are doing is a good thing
and is a reasonable compromise between security and
inconvenience.
While we are on the subject of security. How many of you sign
every email you send out with a digital signature? There is a public
domain program called PGP (Preety Good Privacy) freely available.
Why don't you use it. Do you realize that anyone can take an email
you send, edit it, and then present it as your words w/o anyway for
you to prove that they are not?
Let's face it guys. This thread needs to die and all the whiners
need to go to astronomy mall. Especially since you are whining
about a minor inconveniece when you, like almost everyone else,
don't even practice good security measures on the internet anyway.
So there. >:^}
Now please. No more whining.
Oh yeah. And I know I have set myself up for someone to take
this message, edit it, and forward it as my words. Go for it. Have
fun. More power to you.
And I promise. This is my last weigh-in on this pissing contest.
Blandp1
>Cookies allow a
>certain measure of convenience, and also allow the tracking of a
>person's browsing habits. Logins allow the creation of a saleable
>mailing list.
Bingo.
Space Traveler
Have you given any thought to starting your own web site for buying
and selling astro products?
Please do, you seem to have a definite opinion on how to make the
perfect site.
Please do, post the URL on this NG and we will all come.
BTW: keep in mind that this requires more work that you have
imagined! Then think of all the money you'll make from people posting
the free ads.
Sorry I forgot, I'm speaking to someone who can't remember a password.
On Sun, 07 Jan 2001 22:00:47 GMT, Shneor Sherman <shn...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>Typically, login accounts are used for security purposes. Therefore, before a
Space Traveler
Ron Wodaski
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Blandp1" <bla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010107203338...@ng-fu1.aol.com...
Mark Wagner
: Let's face it guys. This thread needs to die and all the whiners
: need to go to astronomy mall.
Hi James,
I've stayed mostly out of these discussions, but I will make a few remarks
and ask some questions now, since Astronomy-Mall is being dragged in.
This thread is discussing the need for added security, and its
effectiveness or lack of, on AstroMart. Some people are comfortable with
the personal information collected in an attempt to add security, others
are not happy about it.
1. Maybe I am missing something, and perhaps I can be enlightened. If
you purchase an expensive piece of equipment on AstroMart (or any other
similar service), send your money, and become the victim of fraud, what is
going to happen? Is AstroMart going to reimburse you? Are they going to
represent you in court? It only takes one log-in, and one fraud, for
someone to rip you off. It has already been shown in this thread just how
easy it is to defeat log-in precautions. Many people feel that "big
government" tries to "protect" us all, but at what cost? There are many
reasonable precautions people can take to assure themselves they are
dealing with an honest seller.
2. Many people have used Astronomy-Mall's Free Astronomy Classifieds over
the years. Only once, in over five years have I received an e-mail
regarding a possible problem poster selling items. If I have read this
thread properly, the great majority of "problems" occur with the use of
PayPal, so at least 90% of the reason for this concern lies elsewhere.
3. Herb York and Anacortes were the sponsors of Astronomy-Mall's Free
Astronomy Classifieds until they purchased AstroMart. Never once during
their two years of sponsorship was there any concern expressed by them, or
others, regarding the need for security. And there were no problems
reported during that time.
4. There are people who simply prefer to keep their private information
private. I take Herb and Ron at their words that they are doing nothing
with the information they collect other than use it for security. But the
undeniable fact is not many of us have ever met them, or even spoken to
them, and it is a leap of faith in giving trust to anyone when there is
really no way to know what they are doing with collected information.
The best way to provide assurance that there is no ulterior motive to
collecting information is to simply NOT collect it. I do not, never have,
and have no plans to do so on my service (Free Astronomy Classifieds).
5. Someone mentioned the lower rate of traffic on Free Astronomy
Classifieds. There are several reasons this is so. For years advertisers
were not asking for the service to be developed further. That changed
recently, and now we've upgraded the service both in terms of its utility
and speed, and will continue to upgrade. Again, this was in response to
many advertisers' (continuing) requests. Additionally, I never had
intended it to be a way to make money. It was Herb York that very
generously pushed me to make it "commercial" with a banner ad at the top
of the page. I had always wanted it to be absolutely free.
6. The entire raison d'etre for Free Astronomy Classifieds for many years
was to provide an alternative to AstroMart, to make sure users had a place
to turn to if efforts to charge a usage fee on AstroMart were implimented.
Several methods of charging user fees were attempted on AstroMart over the
years, and my service, along with some others that sprang up in response
to the attempted fees, helped make the decision to keep it relatively free
prior to it being sold to Anacortes. In fact, Free Astronomy Classifieds,
of the two services discussed here, is the only one that is actually
free... it is free even to commercial entities... nobody needs to be a
paying sponsor, and pay a fee per ad to post. We plan to stay entirely
free.
In closing, I ask you to not denigrate Free Astronomy Classifieds. Its
free nature is in a very real sense why the service you choose to
patronize has remained cost free to you (but not to everyone) all these
years. I also can tell you that of the many people I've met over the
years through Astronomy-Mall, I can't recall any "whiners"... these people
are my (and your) fellow amateur astronomers who help keep this hobby
active and enjoyable. It helps nobody to start calling names. Everyone
is welcome at Astronomy-Mall, no strings attached.
Now, I will honor your request and not continue this thread.
Clear skies,
--
Mark Wagner
Astronomy-Mall: http://Astronomy-Mall.com TAC: http://observers.org
La Caja de Los Gatos Observatory: 37:13:36N 121:58:25W
PhotoKing
You have my support for your procedure. Thanks for the web site. It's
useful for many amateur astronomers like me who enjoy trying out various
equipment, and reselling it when it doesn't meet our needs.
Thanks for enhancing the hobby.
Andre
Herb York <ztr...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:97888687...@mirror.fidalgo.net...
james lacey
Did not mean to single out astronomy-mall. Just
thought that what was going on with astromart
was OK and overdue. I withdraw any comments
that I made that might have painted your organization
in a negative light. Have had nothing but good dealings
with astronomy mall. Good folks and good people
reside there (as well as astromart).
I do have more to say but DAMN, I said I was done
with this so I am.
May we all meet under the stars some time and
enjoy what we came here for. To be in awe of
what Nature has put before us.
Good night and good thread.
--jl
Eddwen
>>certain measure of convenience, and also allow the tracking of a
>>person's browsing habits. Logins allow the creation of a saleable
>>mailing list.
>
>Bingo.
>
>Philip J. Blanda III
"Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland"
Peter Besenbruch
>"Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland"
It has nothing to do with paranoia, and everything to do with using
the right tools to combat the problem (fraudulent listings). Cookies
and logins are the wrong tools. If Astromart says their site is more
secure than Astronomy Mall's unlogged listings, then what they are
saying is wrong.
Herb York
news:93bb7t$9ar$1...@samba.rahul.net...
> james lacey said. . . :
<snip>
> 1. Maybe I am missing something, and perhaps I can be enlightened. If
> you purchase an expensive piece of equipment on AstroMart (or any other
> similar service), send your money, and become the victim of fraud, what is
> going to happen?
Ron or I are going to get 1-5 emails about how it was done and then we are
asked to make it public and we are asked to provide the information the
buyer didn't get themselves and then we usually are dragged into the emails
that go back and forth and............
Is AstroMart going to reimburse you?
No
Are they going to
> represent you in court?
No
It only takes one log-in, and one fraud, for
> someone to rip you off.
True
It has already been shown in this thread just how
> easy it is to defeat log-in precautions. Many people feel that "big
> government" tries to "protect" us all, but at what cost? There are many
> reasonable precautions people can take to assure themselves they are
> dealing with an honest seller.
Well one additional way we feel is to get the buyers used to seeing things
like
1) This is my name
2) This is where I live
3) This is my phone #
You know the stuff you might want to know before you send someone you don't
know $3000 - and when they don't see that stuff maybe they will ask
1) What is your REAL name and why did you use an alias?
2) Where do you really live (I can't track you down if you only give me a
PO Box) ?
3) Why won't you give me your phone # so I can call you to see if you are
really there?
>
> 2. Many people have used Astronomy-Mall's Free Astronomy Classifieds over
> the years. Only once, in over five years have I received an e-mail
> regarding a possible problem poster selling items. If I have read this
> thread properly, the great majority of "problems" occur with the use of
> PayPal, so at least 90% of the reason for this concern lies elsewhere.
>
I think that was an off the cuff remark by Ron that may or may not be 100%
accurate but I would say it is more often with that payment plan.
We have receive up to one a week and some weeks several.
Today for example AstroMart has had over 100 postings if we had only
received 5 and 3 of those where from dealers the amount of complaints would
certainly be less.
> 3. Herb York and Anacortes were the sponsors of Astronomy-Mall's Free
> Astronomy Classifieds until they purchased AstroMart.
Well actually Mark we still do sponsor your site and we send you a check
regularly.
Never once during
> their two years of sponsorship was there any concern expressed by them, or
> others, regarding the need for security. And there were no problems
> reported during that time.
AstroMart's sponsors are not the ones getting defrauded.
>
> 4. There are people who simply prefer to keep their private information
> private. I take Herb and Ron at their words that they are doing nothing
> with the information they collect other than use it for security.
Thank you
But the
> undeniable fact is not many of us have ever met them, or even spoken to
> them, and it is a leap of faith in giving trust to anyone when there is
> really no way to know what they are doing with collected information.
We are selling it to Iraqi spies - WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE ARE DOING
WITH IT.
Give me a break!! - The only time we even look at it is when we see a
suspicious ad or someone emails with a complaint.
This is a low blow!
Ron and I are VERY busy and have no interest in the information to tell you
the truth. AstroMart has over 2500 emails in it's data base in only 4 months
since we started the new site. We have NEVER -sold the information - used it
to email an offering or giving it to anyone. I take your last statement as
an insult.
> The best way to provide assurance that there is no ulterior motive to
> collecting information is to simply NOT collect it. I do not, never have,
> and have no plans to do so on my service (Free Astronomy Classifieds).
Good for you.
So far if I added the complaints that we are doing it and compared it to the
people that think we are relatively honest and are trying (even in our inept
manner) to help them make an informed decision about who they send their
money to it would appear that we will continue.
The number of fraud complaints we are getting is dropping so..........
And for another thing - it is rare that someone places an ad with another
"free" site that does not also post with AstroMart so it is my feeling since
we do give a damn we get the complaint.
>
> 5. Someone mentioned the lower rate of traffic on Free Astronomy
> Classifieds. There are several reasons this is so. For years advertisers
> were not asking for the service to be developed further. That changed
> recently, and now we've upgraded the service both in terms of its utility
> and speed, and will continue to upgrade. Again, this was in response to
> many advertisers' (continuing) requests. Additionally, I never had
> intended it to be a way to make money. It was Herb York that very
> generously pushed me to make it "commercial" with a banner ad at the top
> of the page. I had always wanted it to be absolutely free.
>
Yes it was I that "forced" Mark into being a capitalist.
Nice job BTW Mark. <g>
>
> 6. The entire raison d'etre for Free Astronomy Classifieds for many years
> was to provide an alternative to AstroMart, to make sure users had a place
> to turn to if efforts to charge a usage fee on AstroMart were implimented.
> Several methods of charging user fees were attempted on AstroMart over the
> years, and my service, along with some others that sprang up in response
> to the attempted fees, helped make the decision to keep it relatively free
> prior to it being sold to Anacortes. In fact, Free Astronomy Classifieds,
> of the two services discussed here, is the only one that is actually
> free... it is free even to commercial entities... nobody needs to be a
> paying sponsor, and pay a fee per ad to post. We plan to stay entirely
> free.
Entirely free?
I'm not going there again.
We charge for dealers and ATMs to post on AstroMart on a per ad basis and
require that they pay a monthly amount to have a link on the home site.
AstroMart is free to the amateur community. AstroMart's total revenue is a
fraction of the other "free" service.
ATWB pays the shortfall.
>
> In closing, I ask you to not denigrate Free Astronomy Classifieds. Its
> free nature is in a very real sense why the service you choose to
> patronize has remained cost free to you (but not to everyone) all these
> years. I also can tell you that of the many people I've met over the
> years through Astronomy-Mall, I can't recall any "whiners"... these people
> are my (and your) fellow amateur astronomers who help keep this hobby
> active and enjoyable. It helps nobody to start calling names. Everyone
> is welcome at Astronomy-Mall, no strings attached.
>
> Now, I will honor your request and not continue this thread.
I'm giving odds.
Herb York
Anacortes Telescope
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
Anacortes Telescope
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
>
Blandp1
>We have pledged not to do this, and
>we will keep our word
Policies can change. What is important is what you have. By forcing logins
with names and addresses you have created a valuable sellable asset. The
reasons you have given of "security" are weak as logins and names do little to
enhance it. Current you have pledge not to sell this asset. For that I am
thankful.
Once created, however, the list is and remains a valuable asset of ATWB. It is
easy to envision several scenarios whereby ATWB would sell or rent the list. A
worsening economic outlook could cause ATWB to use the asset to help stay in
business. Small sole proprietor businesses go bankrupt all the time and, even
against ATWB wishes, a bunkruptcy judge may force the sale of assets to satisfy
creditors.
Shneor Sherman
web site was in 1996. Besides, Astronomy Mall provides the same service,
and does not appear to have experienced the level of fraud that
apparently exists at Astromart. As for passwords, I have too many to
maintain as it is. I don't store them on the PC, either. Now, if
Astromart wanted to use digital certificates, I'd have no problem with
that.
Clear skies,
Shneor sherman
In article <9c8i5tk5m7s2rd61m...@4ax.com>,
--
Eddwen
>the right tools to combat the problem (fraudulent listings). Cookies
>and logins are the wrong tools.
Why are you concerned about being on someones list, accumulated through logins
or cookies?
Edd Weninger
Ron Wodaski
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Blandp1" <bla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010108063716...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
Ron Wodaski
comparison is very misleading and unfair. Is your position so weak that you
have to resort to misleading statements? Please compare the number of new
ads per day at both locations, and _then_ tell me what you find.
Astromart is the number one Astronomy classified, free or otherwise, and by
a substantial margin. We take good care of Astromart users, in the fine
tradition that Robert Fields started. I like to think there is a connection
between the popularity of Astromart and the level of service we provide. I
see repeated comments on the part of a minority about lack of trust. We
stand on our record; we've done nothing, ever, to violate the trust of
Astromart users, and we take it as our mission that we are here to serve the
amateur community, and to never take advantage of the trust generously shown
by that community.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93cqln$ps3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Paul S. Walsh
> Policies can change(etc.)
First, I want to say that I agree, in general, with your concerns. When
Amazon.com recently "altered" their privacy policy, I wrote and gave them
hell and then, because they offer no way to close an account, I went in and
mangled my account info in an attempt to render it useless and have gone on
to find even less expensive book outlets to deal with.
I also believe, that the 'saleable value" of ATWB's mailing list is
*completely nil* for 2 reasons.
A: Anyone attempting to use the list would probably be found out, given the
rather intense cross-communication within the relative "micro-community" of
amateur astronomy and the backlash would be crippling to the purchaser.
It would never, ever get that far because.
B: Anyone who knows the Yorks personally (and I'm one of them*) would simply
find it laughable that they would allow it to happen in the first place.
All 3 of the Yorks (Herb, Paula and Ray) could leave what they are doing and
walk straight into 6-figure jobs tomorrow. The same happens to be true for
any of the ATWB team who has access to the data. They all chose to get into
this business because they love it. One of the first things Herb would do
upon leaving the business is run a degausser over the hard drive containing
this much-contested e-mail list and then heave it into Puget Sound. Call it
his Harley Nature. Call it what you will. There isn't a chance in hell of
that list being abused and, even if Herb lost his mind completely and was
tempted to do it just to spite the whiners, the rest of us would kick his
ass, and he knows it :-)
(* Not long after they opened, I walked into Herb and Paula's shop and
bought an FS102/EM-10 set up. I liked them immediately. Their son, Ray, had
started their web page but they needed someone to take it over and build it
up because Ray was busy with schooling at that time. I offered to pick up
the ball on a part time basis. (my full-time job pays my bills quite well,
so I, too, would have no motive to abuse my fellow amateurs). Since then, I'
ve come to know them quite well. We party together, observe together and
image together. You get to know someone pretty well that way over a 4 year
period. The list of people I would trust to watch my back in any kind of
fight is pretty damn short but Herb holds an honored position on that list.)
In reading through the posts in this thread, I sense there *may* be other
issues involved. Are there some axes being ground in this thread? If so, I
would like to suggest a more up-front approach. Call Herb and solve the
problem. Barring having to deal with a complete hammerhead - he is only
human, after all - I've never seen Herb refuse to do his utmost to resolve a
problem to the customer's satisfaction.
-Paul S. Walsh
Web guy for http://www.williamoptics.com and a proud friend of Herb York.
Peter Besenbruch
>Why are you concerned about being on someones list, accumulated through logins
>or cookies?
I am concerned that this is being put forward as a fraud deterrent. A
person's willingness to submit personal information to a company is a
separate issue. Onceagain, cookies and logins are a great way to build
a saleable database, but a lousy way to block fraud.
Kip
(before they moved) many times. I have found that the integrity of the
Yorks' and their staff is commendable. I have spoken to Herb one on one
before and found him to be quite knowledgeable in many aspects. He and his
clan take this business seriously and are striving to be the best if not the
top contributor to online shopping and Astromart and astronomy in general.
Questioning business ethics is OK, however it wouldn't be beneficial for any
business to "not care" for their customers. I found the Yorks to be ethical
and wanting to do the right thing. Anyway, I'm just tooting my horn a little
and because I had the pleasure of meeting the Anacortes gang I feel
compelled to say something in regard to their commitment. I say "job well
done". Because it is "well done". Anyway, this thread has gotten to the
point of the matter I guess, not everyone will be happy.
By the way..this post is in no way a response to the other posts written
here. Just me....Clear skies!
Paul S. Walsh <fil...@nwlinkkillspam.com> wrote in message
news:3a5a22b8$1...@news.nwlink.com...
Shneor Sherman
does. That, hopefully, will change. In any case, people who are looking
to buy or sell have nothing to lose by advertising at, and checking out
both sites. Certainly, at this point, it's easier to use Astronomy Mall
than Astromart.
I repeat: if you _really_ are loking for better security, you should
accept digital certificates. I would welcome that, because that provides
exactly what you claim you are looking for: authentication and
non-repudiation. It's easy to erase cookies. And people who communicate
with Astromart using more than one PC? Will they need two login IDs?
Same for using different browsers on the same PC or different operating
systems on the same PC.
I have never accused you of violating trust. I have asked about the
rumors that the next five sites you visit after Astromart are reported
back, and you have not responded to this question at all. Is it true? If
not, why don't you specifically deny it?
Clear skies,
Shneor Sherman
In article <3a5a1...@news.nwlink.com>,
> >
Herb York
<snip>
>
> I have never accused you of violating trust.
Well you sure have insinuated it without actually saying it.
I have asked about the
> rumors that the next five sites you visit after Astromart are reported
> back, and you have not responded to this question at all. Is it true?
I can't answer whether it does or not Ron will have to answer that - I can
tell you I have NEVER seen any information like that and have ZERO interest
in it if we could get it. There are over 600,000 visits to AstroMart in a
month and if we could see the next 5 places someone went after they visited
us that would be 3,000,000 site visits. There are 2 of us that monitor
AstroMart when we aren't operating ATWB. Not a lot of free time around here
to see who you went to visit after you visited AstroMart.
Look we are a small astronomy shop that tries to do a good job for our
customers. When AstroMart was for sale we made an offer because it is how
Paula and I started our business and we thought it would be a cool thing to
do as sort of a thank you to the community. We asked Ron to rebuild it and
he has done a crap load of work trying to make it a fast and clean site with
some added features and is trying to do some basic stuff to make it a little
safer.
We obviously cannot satisfy everyone and to that end there are alternatives
to AstroMart and apparently you have found one you like better. Fine - use
it.
We are interested in how people feel about what we are doing. If you think
what we are doing is bad email me ztr...@fidalgo.net and we will consider
changing it to a more wide open -good luck - site. It would be easier for
us. So far the private emails I'm getting would indicate that AstroMart
users in general like what we have done and are supportive. If not and you
don't want to go public with your dissatisfaction then please email me.
If
> not, why don't you specifically deny it?
I deny it. Have a nice day.
Herb York
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
>
> Clear skies,
> Shneor Sherman
Ron Wodaski
worth mentioning. I don't even know _how_ to do that. <g> I spend my time on
other things.
--
Ron Wodaski
http://www.newastro.com
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93fcs7$rit$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Shneor Sherman
unnecessary ind essentially useless login IDs, this URL is a good place
to start:
http://www.junkbusters.com/ht/en/junkdata.html
Clear skies,
Shneor Sherman
John Hagan
added to someone's marketing list isn't a real threat to my security,
and if someone is really curious about the last site I was visiting, I
can deal with that.
Matbe it's a matter of perception. I've never really looked at the web
as "private" place. My ISP knows where I go, and anything I write
online is more or less permanently recorded.
If I were buying something from Anacortes, I'd have no problem telling
them who I am and where I live, so I guess I feel the same way about
using a site freely provided by them. I don't know Herb personally,
but his reputation and demeanor on this group is enough for me to
trust him. Wow... trust. There's an old fashioned word.
John
On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 19:58:16 GMT, Shneor Sherman <shn...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>For those who asked why I am concerned about the use of cookies and
djmetzger
register (log-in) with them, thereby creating another saleable
list/database. And also, aren't they in effect using our info to make money?
(rhetorical)
I'm astute, I'm a sentient being. John's right. We're out here doing what
we'd like, knowing full well the downsides and ramifications therewith.
Everyone has a very good point and people should do as they wish. Let
everyone make their point and move on. Life's too short.
"John Hagan" <phiz...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:3a5b7f74....@news.rcn.com...
Paul S. Walsh
> For those who asked why I am concerned about the use of cookies and
> unnecessary ind essentially useless login IDs, this URL is a good place
> to start: http://www.junkbusters.com/ht/en/junkdata.html
I agree with your tip, here, Mr. Sherman.
I'm familiar with this site and it's a fairly good (and entertaining)
resource. I especially recommend the "REMOTE_IDENT'' variable checking
routine found at:
http://www.junkbusters.com/cgi-bin/privacy
It's worth a visit just to test your system. If your's is giving up anything
more than the Remote Address and User Agent, you might want to contact your
ISP or install a firewall such as ZoneAlarm. There are other firewalls
available as well.
I suggest these only for informational purposes, in that I have used them
successfully and make no warranties regarding their efficacy.
-Paul S. Walsh
Gary Hand
Astromart is tracking my movements after I leave the Astromart site. I have
discussed this with other people in the astronomical industry with sophisticated
knowledge and they confirm it. I have known about this for months and kept
silent hoping it would resolve itself. It is not far fetched, it is not
parinoid, this is not James Bond stuff. This is High School Hacker stuff and it
is technically rather easy. Several sites do it with varying levels of success.
After leaving the Astromart site and click on another site, my compuuter "pings"
its signal identifying my unique identity. But my ping has a Astromart
signature in it to report my "clicks" back to Astromart.
I have a long multi-year history as a sponsor with Astromart and Astromall and
want both to succeed. But I am deeply, deeply concerned about the information
management and control trend on Astromart.
I am not judging your motives, honesty or anyone associated with astromart. I am
not saying you initiated the practice of secretly collecting this data, or is
was a carry over from the previous owner. But, you are collecting data on me
and the other 10500+ subscribers to Astromart.
WHY?
Gary Hand
Herb York
news:3A5BCFFD...@erols.com...
Gary, this is a joke - right?
Herb
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
Anacortes Telescope and Wild Bird
(360)588-9000
(800)850-2001
Peter Besenbruch
wrote:
>Ron, I know how to do it and Astromart is doing it. My web master agrees that
>Astromart is tracking my movements after I leave the Astromart site. ...
>After leaving the Astromart site and click on another site, my compuuter "pings"
>its signal identifying my unique identity. But my ping has a Astromart
>signature in it to report my "clicks" back to Astromart.
I could see how it happens if Astromart shared a centralized cookie
service with, say, Doubleclick, but that would not cover all sites.
Are you saying Astromart places an active-x control, or similar
program, on the hard drive to report back to them? If so, what is the
name of the control?
This is a rather serious allegation, and you will need to be a lot
more specific about it.
RichardN22
and the other 10500+ subscribers to Astromart.
>>
Could this be an unknown carry-over from the previous owner of AstroMart?
Richard Navarrete
Richa...@aol.com
Astrophotography Web Page - http://members.aol.com/richardn22
Herb York
news:20010110004606...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Robert Fields has nothing to do with the present site - it's servers - it's
operation.
We are looking into Gary Hand's allegations. If he is right we will correct
it. If he is wrong.......
Thank you
Herb
Ron Wodaski
is stateless, so I can't imagine how this would be done. I'm an application
developer, not a web hacker.
So have your web guy contact me; I sent you my personal phone number by
email. I'm curious to know what the phenomenon is. We'd be happy to take
care of it. Whatever data there _might_ be, we're not saving/collecting it,
so this is a "no harm, no foul" situation, to quote Chick Hearn, the
announcer for the LA Lakers for many years.
We used to use hitbox for tracking page hits, but we no longer use that
third party service. Not sure what it involved; it wasn't my dept. <g>. Any
chance that was what you were referring to? We don't use it any more on
Astromart, it was slowing down the page display because of the heavy use of
tables - nothing displayed until the hitbox stuff arrived from their server.
Maybe having content from multiple domains on a page was the issue?.
Anything at all specific and we're happy to check it out. I have no idea
what you might mean from the description.
Ron Wodaski
"Gary Hand" <astr...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3A5BCFFD...@erols.com...
Ron Wodaski
(I) am a Windows developer, thus the change. Perhaps this is something to do
with the differences between UNIX web hosting and Windows web hosting? There
is far less paranoia on the Window side of the house, with lots of cool
features as a result. <g> Windows web hosting pretty much has cookies built
into every page -- you can't eliminate them if you use Active Server Pages,
for example, as they are used to maintain user sessions.
Ron Wodaski
"RichardN22" <richa...@aol.comeatcaca> wrote in message
news:20010110004606...@ng-cu1.aol.com...
Joseph O'Neil
It is a first step down a slipperly slope. You can gather a
frightening amount of data on a person form thier web surfing and
shopping habits. You can figure out thier medical considtions, base
pay range, and all sorts of other data.
I would suggest any person who feels errosion of personal
privacy is of no real concern, they should immedaitly post thier
entire medical history and all income tax statement on the net in
public view. :)
Seriously, almost every commercail web site gaters data. I
have two firewalls installed on my computer, and they block a lock of
stuff off the web.
More importantly however, a lot of commercial software you
purchage and install on your hard drive - without you knowledge or
your consent - contacts "home office" of the software maker every
time you log onto the net, and lets the home office know when you are
using thier software, etc.
joe
Joe Hartley
"Ron Wodaski" <rwod...@hotmail.com> writes:
> I rewrote the system from scratch. It used to be on a UNIX server, but we
> (I) am a Windows developer, thus the change. Perhaps this is something to do
> with the differences between UNIX web hosting and Windows web hosting?
I've stayed out of this so far, but didn't want to let this go by.
No disrespect to you, Ron, but I think the service went way downhill when
the servers were changed. My professional opinion is that no Internet
services should be run on Microsoft software - it's not up to the task.
That's my opinion, and I don't want to start a discussion of the relative
merits of OSes for the task. I've run into a number of problems with the
new site that can be traced to either trouble with the MS services, or with
the pages not being happy about the rather strict firewalling I have in
place. My usual action in such cases is to simply not bother with that
particular website any more. People choose what they choose, and it's
not my place to try and badger them into doing something I want them to
do. I never bothered tracing the problem to see if it was cookies (which
I block) or JavaScript (which I selectively block) or something else that
caused problems with my Netscape on my Sun; I just never went back.
> There
> is far less paranoia on the Window side of the house, with lots of cool
> features as a result. <g> Windows web hosting pretty much has cookies built
> into every page -- you can't eliminate them if you use Active Server Pages,
> for example, as they are used to maintain user sessions.
If your paranoia dropped when you went to IIS, then something's wrong.
IIS is much more susceptible to hacks than Apache under Unix. Assuming
admins of equal excellence for both the NT and Unix hosts, you're still
more likely to have problems with hacking with the NS tools.
You're a Windows developer, so those are the tools you use - OK. I just
thought you might like to know why one potential customer has dropped
Astromart and Anacortes from his bookmarks.
--
======================================================================
Joe Hartley - Technical Director - Frosty Drew Observatory
12 Emma G Lane, Narragansett, RI 02882 - 401.782.9042
j...@frostydrew.org - http://www.frostydrew.org
Shneor Sherman
without the knowledge of Astromart's owners & operators, or that
off-the-shelf software has a default configuration set to do this. But
Astromart are the only ones who could check that out.
Clear skies,
Shneor Sherman
In article <97911065...@mirror.fidalgo.net>,
--
Herb York
> It's entirely possible that one of the banner advertisers is doing this
> without the knowledge of Astromart's owners & operators, or that
> off-the-shelf software has a default configuration set to do this. But
> Astromart are the only ones who could check that out.
> Clear skies,
> Shneor Sherman
We do not have banners - the site you like does.
Shneor - you seem to have a little time on your hands why not go over to
your classified site of preference and read the "privacy policy" and report
back what you find about the use of cookies or lack there of. I think you
will find it interesting.
Ron Wodaski
Ron Wodaski
"PhotoKing" <no-spam...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uoa66.2148$Kb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Herb + Ron,
>
> You have my support for your procedure. Thanks for the web site. It's
> useful for many amateur astronomers like me who enjoy trying out various
> equipment, and reselling it when it doesn't meet our needs.
>
> Thanks for enhancing the hobby.
>
> Andre
>
>
> Herb York <ztr...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
> news:97888687...@mirror.fidalgo.net...
> > "Blandp1" <bla...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20010107102428...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
> > > Adding the requirement to "login" does very little to reduce fraud.
At
> > best it
> > > simply causes the rip-off artist to have to create a new false
identity
> > each
> > > time a fraud is commited or at least attempted. This is hardly a
> > deterent.
> > > E-mail addresses are easy to set up, and free. Anonymous web surfing
> > (using
> > > any number of services, some of which are free) is simple so even
> finding
> > the
> > > ISP of the prepetrator is difficult. As an example, E-bay does all
that
> > ATWB
> > > proposes and rip-offs are still rampent.
> >
> >
> > One thing it DOES do is give the buyer reason for concern and hopefully
> the
> > buyer will think twice about sending money to a PO box with no phone
> number
> > and required to pay in money order or "pay pal". At least I would hope
> they
> > would think twice.
> > We are not your mother but we are trying to give you some basic
> information
> > so you can make an informed decision on where and to whom you are
sending
> > your hard earned money. If a person is going to send their money to
> someone
> > that won't give basic information then we can't stop them.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > What creating a "login" record does do very well, however, is give
ATWB
> a
> > handy
> > > address list of a group of people who are interested in astronomical
> > goods.
> > > This list is very valuable to them both for it's value as a sellable
> item,
> > and
> > > as a tool for use in their marketing.
> > >
> > > Philip J. Blanda III
> >
> >
> > If you are going to make an accusation then make it Phillip. Do you have
> any
> > knowledge of ATWB using the information in ANY inappropriate manner?
> >
> >
> >
> > Herb York
Ron Wodaski
web etiquette. We would never store someone's information without their
permission, and a login is how to do that. Simply put, since so many abusers
of the system were using the non-login method of posting ads, we felt
obliged to make it harder for the abusers. I understand that this
inconveniences some Astromart users, but this is a good tradeoff and the
best one available to us, IMO.
Ron Wodaski
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93ahjr$mp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> aSTROMART IS CURRENTLY USING COOKIES ANYWAY. What's the need for an
additonal
> login id? Clear skies, Shneor Sherman
>
> In article <97888687...@mirror.fidalgo.net>,
Ron Wodaski
security is making someone work harder to commit an abusive or fraudulent
act. That is part of our strategy. One doesn't disclose technical security
measures for the same reason you don't hand out keys to your house to
strangers: if you know something about a system, you can abuse it more
easily.
There is a lot of talk about security measures with respect to hackers, but
from what I've learned, picking passwords out of the garbage remains the
number one hacking method -- there's nothing like having inside information
to save time and energy. Likewise, credit card fraud via fax is much more
common that sniffing via the internet. Sniffing is a sophisticated thing to
do, compared to photocopying faxed orders.
I think we've thought this through more carefully than many of our
detractors have, or than they are giving us credit for, and I hope our
responses have made that clear. Armchair quarterbacking is how I look at it;
paranoia is a bit strong. <g> It's always different in the trenches where
your decisions affect others; I think that many of our detractors would
make different choices if the burden of choice actually sat on their
shoulders. I have learned a few useful things from the discussion, however.
Ron Wodaski
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:1UdZOrPsf6RRka...@4ax.com...
> On 08 Jan 2001 04:25:17 GMT, edd...@aol.com (Eddwen) wrote:
>
> >"Paranoia strikes deep in the heartland"
>
> It has nothing to do with paranoia, and everything to do with using
> the right tools to combat the problem (fraudulent listings). Cookies
> and logins are the wrong tools. If Astromart says their site is more
> secure than Astronomy Mall's unlogged listings, then what they are
> saying is wrong.
Ron Wodaski
There are two issues here: technical security protection, and making it
harder to commit fraud. Without logins, fraud is a walk in the park. With
logins, one becomes more accountable. It doesn't prevent fraud; it makes it
harder to do. That's a good thing.
Plus, this discussion has raised the level of awareness for all classifieds
customers, including the alternatives to Astromart. We think that's a good
thing to, if this thread has helped shoppers understand more about to
protect themselves.
Once you factor in the human factors, its clear how this makes fraud less
likely. Look outside the technical boundaries of the question. Maybe it's
easier for Herb and myself to do this because we are exposed to fraud on a
practical basis, not theoretical. Being in the trenches you see exactly what
goes on, and it provides very useful input for making good decisions.
Armchair quarterbacking I called it elsewhere. I think that any of our
detractors who took the time and effort to set up any kind of system on the
level of the complexity and popularity of Astromart would see things
differently. <g>
Ron Wodaski
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:hCtaOlNGOeEoHP...@4ax.com...
Ron Wodaski
the same things you don't like to be the best things about the new
Astromart. It just shows that different folks like different things.
Ron Wodaski
"Joe Hartley" <j...@brainiac.com> wrote in message
news:3V%66.13576$R62.1...@news1.wwck1.ri.home.com...
Ron Wodaski
anyone can send screen shots, copies of web pages with problems, reports
from software showing the nature of the problem, etc., we are all ears and
eager to hear it so we can fix whatever is causing the problem. So far, all
we have had are rumors and generalities.
Ron Wodaski
"Ron Wodaski" <rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a5c267b$1...@news.nwlink.com...
Peter Besenbruch
<rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>You are confusing technical security issues with human factors One form of
>security is making someone work harder to commit an abusive or fraudulent
>act. That is part of our strategy. One doesn't disclose technical security
>measures for the same reason you don't hand out keys to your house to
>strangers: if you know something about a system, you can abuse it more
>easily.
We haven't really discussed technical security issues. You likewise
have not addressed the issue I raised. I am a non technical person,
but even I know how easy it is to defeat these "security" measures you
have in place. The bottom line is logins and cookies are greatly data
gathering tools and lousy security devices. You are gathering data on
people. The measures you have discussed protect no-one.
Ron Wodaski
we've made to Astromart.
Ron Wodaski
"Mike Simmons" <ecli...@mwoa.org> wrote in message
news:3A5771A2...@mwoa.org...
> Ron,
>
> It's impossible to please everyone though you guys have tried very hard
> to do just that. The vast majority seem to be pleased with the changes
> (cookies and all) but I know if that changes you will accommodate the
> users' desires. There is nothing more than anyone could ask or expect.
> I know you've received many thanks for your efforts but not enough,
> IMHO, so thanks again!
>
> Mike Simmons
> Occasional but very pleased Astromart user
Ron Wodaski
there, you've eliminated most of the people who commit fraud, especially the
lazy ones. <g> This is a deterrent, not a high-tech security effort.
Ron Wodaski
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:TqlXOpF4HV7K0JKE=22+bc...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:02:55 -0800, "Ron Wodaski"
> <rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >With the new system, it's pretty much one computer, one login.
>
> Unless, of course you write protect the Netscape cookie file, making
> cookies session only. You can do something similar by deleting all the
> cookie files for Internet Explorer. Then all one needs to do is do a
> proxy login for each item you want to sell. I just don't see the
> benefits, Ron.
Ron Wodaski
Ron Wodaski
"Space Traveler" <pos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:13re5tgighoj9dh1v...@4ax.com...
>
<snip>
> Just goes to show you that if you give something away someone will
> bitch.
>
Peter Besenbruch
<rwod...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Gary sent information privately,
I wish Gary had either expressed his concerns privately, or made his
information public. Making a public accusation of that magnitude
without backing it up is unfortunate behavior.
Ron Wodaski
abused Astromart. Once we know that someone is a problem, we keep an eye out
for them. Logins let us do that. While in a perfect world one could disguise
oneself, this takes effort. Some abusers go through the effort; most don't.
That's success. OK? It works. As for the abusers who do take the effort and
keep trying, we handle them by other means, as I've said. Sometimes it's as
simple as personally reviewing the ads looking for familiar addresses,
styles of use, etc. Plus, Astromart users are smart: when you call someone,
and you find out that the name you have to put on the check has nothing to
do with the name on the ad, most users walk away from the transaction
because it feel funny. Logins work, again.
You may not be able to see the benefits, but they are real nonetheless. This
has also been true of the abusers of the system -- when they get caught,
they are always surprised at how effectively we deal with them. Human
factors play a much larger role in the practical application of these
techniques than perhaps you are aware. You may not have a technical
background, but by focusing on the technical issues, rather than on how
people behave, you are missing some of the ways that this system is
effective.
Ron Wodaski
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:cKRcOoX2rrnHR50zCGMZxFdHjD=M...@4ax.com...
Ron Wodaski
been handled in a more appropriate manner. The failure to produce hard
evidence speaks for itself, fortunately.
Ron Wodaski
"Peter Besenbruch" <prb.n...@lava.net> wrote in message
news:U6dcOmGnTnKsrR...@4ax.com...
Herb York
Yes - it is strange is it not that something that was troubling him so
"deeply deeply for months" would not have been easily sent to us anytime
during that time. I know it is real hard to get my email address or find my
phone # and Ron is very hard to contact you rarely ever see a post from him
on the internet with his link or email address.
Mark Wagner
: Shneor - you seem to have a little time on your hands why not go over to
: your classified site of preference and read the "privacy policy" and report
: back what you find about the use of cookies or lack there of. I think you
Herb,
Thanks for pointing out the privacy policy on Free Astronomy Classifieds.
I believe we are using the same classifieds software, so you should be
aware that the verbage you referred Shneor to was actually "canned" text
that came with the program. I have made changes to it to reflect more
closely the policies of Free Astronomy Classifieds.
--
Mark Wagner
Astronomy-Mall: http://Astronomy-Mall.com TAC: http://observers.org
La Caja de Los Gatos Observatory: 37:13:36N 121:58:25W
Ron Wodaski
We did once use that software, but when we inherited Astromart, we had to
port it to a Windows 2000 server. We wrote our own system and it has more
features than the canned one did, and it's easier to maintain and revise.
Ron Wodaski
"Mark Wagner" <mgw@Astro*remove*nomy-Mall.com> wrote in message
news:93ife1$mtf$1...@samba.rahul.net...
Herb York
news:93ife1$mtf$1...@samba.rahul.net...
>
> : Shneor - you seem to have a little time on your hands why not go over to
> : your classified site of preference and read the "privacy policy" and
report
> : back what you find about the use of cookies or lack there of. I think
you
>
> Herb,
>
> Thanks for pointing out the privacy policy on Free Astronomy Classifieds.
> I believe we are using the same classifieds software, so you should be
> aware that the verbage you referred Shneor to was actually "canned" text
> that came with the program. I have made changes to it to reflect more
> closely the policies of Free Astronomy Classifieds.
>
Actually we do not use that software for AstroMart.
We did buy the software you use for our ASTROBIRD classifieds on the ATWB
site before Ron was asked to build what we feel is a superior package and we
replaced it at that time (about 1+ years ago) and then when we knew we were
going to purchase AstroMart we asked Ron to create a new one for it. He
started a few days before the sale was complete and when it was done we had
a new package on our server and we hit the go switch and redirected the
traffic. Ron has been spending quite a bit of time tweaking it since and I'm
real proud of his efforts.
Thanks
Shneor Sherman
cookies or login IDs.
If there are no banner advertisers, and what Mr. Hand reported is
correct, then you do have a problem.
And no, I don't have that much time on my hands, except that there's a
full moon...so no observing time.
Clear skies,
Shneor Sherman
In article <97914497...@mirror.fidalgo.net>,
--
Ron Wodaski
allegations. If this is as simple as alleged, surely someone can give us the
information we need to deal with it? Screen shots, a copy of a page, a
report from a software program -- if this is real, give us the evidence.
We're eager to improve the site any way we can, as I think our users
understand. From our perspective, we built a swell site using conventional
tools, and if there's anything that needs to be adjusted, we're happy to do
it.
The funniest thing, to me anyway, is that the hit statistics for Astromart
are publicly viewable by anyone who visits the site. Just look at any ad --
it will tell you how many times it has been "hit." Yes, we're a secretive
bunch -- NOT! <g> That's all the statistics we capture, now that Hitbox is
off the site.
My bigger concern here is that if no actual evidence is brought forward,
what harm has been done by making allegations that have no substance? Even
if this was an error or a misunderstanding of what was viewed, circulating
such information rather than asking us "what's up?" doesn't make sense to
me. Was it Hitbox? Ask us to find out. Was it some configuration setting?
Ask us. Was it an incorrect interpretation of the facts? Ask us, we'll check
it out together. The only thing missing here are the facts. Innuendo -- we
got plenty of that. Rumor, too. Facts? Still waiting.
A simple deja search will show just how attentive we are to the issues, BTW.
We may not always have the same opinion as the person who has a comment, but
we have an open door policy. I don't know if you've noticed, but folks have
taken to posting bug reports right here on SAA; they usually get fixed the
same day, if not within the hour. I don't care how I hear about it; I just
want the site to be right.
Ron Wodaski
"Shneor Sherman" <shn...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93ihrb$fnb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Shneor Sherman
"security" measures are nothing of the sort and are obtrusive (IMHO). I
don't think they will deter anyone who intends to commit fraud. Again,
that's just my opinion, and I certainly could be mistaken. You are the
ones who will see over time if this really reduces attempts at fraud.
I suspect you might have a short-lived dip, followed by an upsurge. The
best advice to combat fraud is - caveat emptor.
Clear skies,
Shneor Sherman
In article <3a5ca...@news.nwlink.com>,
--
Rich N.
Ron Wodaski wrote in message <3a5cc66d$1...@news.nwlink.com>...
>Gotcha, huh? <g>
Ron, that is a pretty childish sounding comment.
Rich
Rich N.
Herb York wrote in message <97906410...@mirror.fidalgo.net>...
-snip
>customers. When AstroMart was for sale we made an offer because it is how
>Paula and I started our business and we thought it would be a cool thing to
>do as sort of a thank you to the community.
-snip
Hi Herb,
It was and is a cool thing to do for the community. But, I have
sometimes wondered if doesn't also give you the opportunity
to cherry pick used equipment deals since I believe you sell
used as well as new equipment?
Rich
John Hagan
How, exactly, would running Astromart give them an advantage over
anyone else? When you place an ad, it goes on the site immediately for
everyone to see. Just out of curiousity, why would you make an
accusation like this?
This is getting really ugly. It's one thing to look a gift horse in
the mouth, but quite another to kick him in the teeth. (Sorry about
the severely mixed metaphor, but I'm on a roll here...)
I doubt that buying Astromart was a profitable investment for
Anacortes. If I'm wrong, so much the better. It's a great resource for
us, and it has only improved under their stewardship.
John Hagan
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:01:49 -0800, "Rich N." <rnapo*remove*@znet.com>
wrote:
Herb York
>
> It was and is a cool thing to do for the community. But, I have
> sometimes wondered if doesn't also give you the opportunity
> to cherry pick used equipment deals since I believe you sell
> used as well as new equipment?
>
> Rich
I don't mind you calling my ethics into question - after the last couple
days I'm beginning to feel like a regular criminal.
Since we have had AstroMart I have bought 5 rolls of film and 1 camera lens.
These are for a trip I'm taking in February - the lens will most likely be
resold and for the price I paid for it if it will bring that much.
The 6 months before that I bought one used Ha filter.
I have bought several things on eBay for my own use and for resale at our
shop. Mostly Questars and Leica camera bodies and lenses.
I sure hope this meets with your approval Rich N.
Rich N.
Herb York wrote in message <97918530...@mirror.fidalgo.net>...
Herb, you are getting a pretty thin skin. I don't think giving
sarcastic answers on the net helps anything.
I made an honest compliment and an honest question since
you are used equipment dealer. I don't know that cherry picking
would be an ethical problem as long as someone in your position
was paying a reasonable price.
Rich
Rich N.
John Hagan wrote in message <3a5d3851...@news.rcn.com>...
>Rich
>
>How, exactly, would running Astromart give them an advantage over
>anyone else? When you place an ad, it goes on the site immediately for
>everyone to see. Just out of curiousity, why would you make an
>accusation like this?
I wouldn't call it an "accusation". I don't know that there is an
ethical problem with cherry picking.
But to answer your question, I asked the question because I know
Herb buys and sells used equipment. Or, at least he used to.
I assume he still does. Having access to a service like Astromart
it would be convienent to be able to cherry pick. If you control the
site I don't think it would be too difficult to do some form of cherry
picking.
>
>This is getting really ugly. It's one thing to look a gift horse in
>the mouth, but quite another to kick him in the teeth. (Sorry about
>the severely mixed metaphor, but I'm on a roll here...)
I guess you think cherry picking would be an ethical problem.
I honestly don't know that it would be.
>
>I doubt that buying Astromart was a profitable investment for
>Anacortes. If I'm wrong, so much the better. It's a great resource for
>us, and it has only improved under their stewardship.
True, I don't think it was all that great under Robert's control.
But, I don't like the current idea of collecting customer data,
even if it is with the best of intentions. And I believe Herb
is doing it with the best of intentions.
Rich
Herb York
news:t5qjod4...@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<etc>
<etc>
Rich N
We are not cherry picking - as the gentleman said AstroMart is LIVE no time
for anyone to look at the ads first.
I do feel it would be unfair of us to screen the ads and "cherry pick" - we
haven't and we won't. I have seen good deals that a couple years ago I would
have gone after but now I'm more inclined to contact the seller and tell
him/her that they could get more. Our business has really shifted to 95%+
new. The used we get is usually from a call asking if we would like to buy a
certain product because the person selling it does not want to deal with the
public.
> But, I don't like the current idea of collecting customer data,
> even if it is with the best of intentions.
Well the reason we are doing it is right here!!
This ad was just placed on AstroMart:
Ad number: 63803
Wanted: Eyepieces
Placed 1/10/2001 for 5 days.
Ad caption: 27mm panoptic
George (Last name removed)
(Address deleted)
If you have one in excellent condition and are willing to sell, please let
me know. No paypal. Must be willing to exchange contact information,
including telephone number (I know this sounds obvious). Will not deal with
PO boxes or pager numbers.
If you are still interested :-) please e-mail me.
Thanks.
George
This is EXACTLY what we are trying to do.
Don't tell me that all the work we are doing is for nothing.
It is a hell of a lot easier to just let the site go and not put the extra
effort into it.
It appears that this person gets it.
And I believe Herb
> is doing it with the best of intentions.
Well of course Rich N it is easy to see your support in your statements and
honest questions. I really appreciate your support.
Herb York
Anacortes Telescope
www.BuyTelescopes.com
www.AstroMart.com
360-588-9000
800-850-2001
>
> Rich
>
--
tony_...@my-deja.com
Gary Hand <astr...@erols.com> wrote:
> Ron, I know how to do it and Astromart is doing it. My web master
agrees that
> Astromart is tracking my movements after I leave the Astromart site.
I have
> discussed this with other people in the astronomical industry with
sophisticated
> knowledge and they confirm it. I have known about this for months
and kept
> silent hoping it would resolve itself. >
>
Gary,
I was wondering, does your site "Hands On Optics" use cookies? Do you
track my movements when I visit?
This thread is really getting carried away. The "Cherry Picking" line
was the best. Not an accusation just an honest question he says. Seems
to be the way of s.a.a. Those who want to stir up trouble never
actually accuse anyone they just ask innocent, honest questions in the
guise of helping others. Sounds like cowards talking behind someones
back to me.
Well, readuing some of these posts make me surprised at what really
goes on in peoples minds and gives me a good ideal of their true
character. Herb and Ron have done us a service with Astromart and I
hope it continues as is. I don't know if they are making a list but I
am! A list of people I would not chose to do business with now. With
responses and acusations like some of these I would indeed feel worried
doing private deals with several of the poster here.
I think some of these guys need to truely look at their motivation for
saying what they are saying and slamming people that provide a service
to us.
Tony Miller
Chris N.
service, nonetheless) then disappearing when asked to provide proof is
unfortunate.
Gary, Shneor, Rich N. can you come up with some specific proof or
incident (yes, Rich N. *everyone* on this NG can see through your
thinly-veiled "innocent questions")? If not, you are only damaging
your own credibility. Shneor and Rich I will probably never have
reason to do business with. But Gary, absent any proof on your part
about the allegations you made, do you really expect me to want to
visit Hands On Optics with this ugly behavior?
Herb, there are many readers of the forum (as opposed to active
posters) who are in your corner. I ordered some binocs for my son this
Christmas, and went through Anacortes specifically because of their
sponsorship of the ads/forums on astromart.
Keep up the good work.
Chris N.
In article <93k65c$qj3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Shneor Sherman
Astromart tracking the next few web sites they visit. I have asked one of
them to send you guys a screen capture. I hope they will be able to follow
thorugh, so you can clear it up. Clear skies, Shneor Sherman
In article <3a5cb427$1...@news.nwlink.com>,
--
Rich N.
Herb York wrote in message <97919668...@mirror.fidalgo.net>...
-snip
>Well of course Rich N it is easy to see your support in your statements and
>honest questions. I really appreciate your support.
>
>Herb York
Thank you Herb.
Rich
Rich N.
tony_...@my-deja.com wrote in message <93k65c$qj3
-snip
-snip
>Tony Miller
Tony, just a question in general about cherry picking.
Do you think it is unethical?
If a person is paying a fair price and the seller has a
choice, is it unethical?
Rich