Zig-Zag Satellite !!!!????

[Stargazer]

Last thursday, around 11.30 pm, I saw an object I first took to be a
run-of-the-mill satellite (allthough a little faint). I first noticed the
object
when it was nearly directly above me, in the western sky. It traveled on
a northerly course, and when I last saw it, it was probably at an
angle of about 45 degrees. The observation lasted about 30-40 seconds.

Now for the strange part:

After I had observed the object for about 5-10 secs, it suddenly
disappeared for a sec, only to appear a second (or so) later, markedly
ahead on its course and offset from it ! At first I thought my eyes were
playing tricks on me, but no, this object made zig-zag jumps at least
5 times (in the same manner) while I watched ! The sky was VERY clear,
and the jumps were quite noticeable. Between "jumps", it continued
on its northerly course.

I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe (with an internet
connection) to have seen this !

I have absolutely no explanation for this observation. Any theories ?

- Stargazer

[Paul S.M. Curran]

thom...@netcom.com (Allen Thomson) wrote:

> I've seen this sort of erratic motion both when viewing with the
>unaided eye and with binoculars. Unless the saucerians were really
>being deceptive, the objects actually were satellites because they
>were on the right track, at the right time as predicted from orbital
>elements downloaded from the NASA site at Goddard. I assume the
>apparent jumps are some psychophysiology of vision thing.
>
> EGP, a Japanese geodetic satellite consisting of a sphere covered
>with mirrors (like one of those dancehall ornaments) is quite striking
>in this respect: the mirrors make it twinkle strongly, and it appears
>to hop around its mean path when seen through binoculars.

I believe Allan is correct. Many observors have reported this phenomena, including
Arthur C. Clarke. It is most likely caused by the twitching the eye does. This
movement is usually unnoticed. However when viewing a bright object on a dark
background many times the eye movement is translated an extra motion in the object
being viewed.

[Allen Thomson]

[Twisted STISter]

In article <4vsu01$3...@news.uni-c.dk>, Stargazer <nje...@dk-online.dk> wrote:
>
>
>Last thursday, around 11.30 pm, I saw an object I first took to be a
>run-of-the-mill satellite (allthough a little faint). I first noticed the
>object
>when it was nearly directly above me, in the western sky. It traveled on
>a northerly course, and when I last saw it, it was probably at an
>angle of about 45 degrees. The observation lasted about 30-40 seconds.
>
>Now for the strange part:
>
>After I had observed the object for about 5-10 secs, it suddenly
>disappeared for a sec, only to appear a second (or so) later, markedly
>ahead on its course and offset from it ! At first I thought my eyes were
>playing tricks on me, but no, this object made zig-zag jumps at least
>5 times (in the same manner) while I watched ! The sky was VERY clear,
>and the jumps were quite noticeable. Between "jumps", it continued
>on its northerly course.

I have seen things like this on ocassion. I believe what you saw was
a tumbling satellite-- as it tumbles, it can change in brightness as it
presents first a long side then a short side to you. Sometimes the
difference in brightness is very large (for example, a spent rocket
booster is much longer than it is wide). Your eye tries to track it, but
sometimes you cannot estimate where it will be, and so it pops into view
in a somewhat different place than you expect. Does this sound like
what you saw?

--
* Phil Plait, Pee Aytch Dee pc...@virginia.edu
* "Twinkies are not sentient in any way we can understand."

[Nigel Shuck]

I see a small zig-zag effect with nearly every satellite I see; I have
asumed that it is an artifact of the sat. being an effective point
source and the convection cells in the atmosphere at my very noticably
poor-seeing back garden. I suppose this would mean that it should be
more apparent at lower altitude, I'll check on the next clear night
(sometime next year, probably).

Cheers

Nigel

[Allen Thomson]

I'm currently inclined to think that the zig-zag satellites are
a variant of an optical illusion that's well known in psychological
circles under the name of "the autokinetic effect." Basically, it's
that stationary point sources of light viewed against a dark background
appear to move around.

P.S.: In doing a very little bit of research into this, I've become
persuaded that psychologists are under way too much pressure to publish.
There's an appalling number of papers that try to relate a person's
tendency to perceive the autokinetic illusion to things like "ego
distancing" and unconventional ideation. Sheesh!

[Brett Wayne]

In article <322621e...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, ps...@ix.netcom.com (Paul
S.M. Curran) wrote:

> I believe Allan is correct. Many observors have reported this phenomena, including
> Arthur C. Clarke. It is most likely caused by the twitching the eye does. This
> movement is usually unnoticed. However when viewing a bright object on a dark
> background many times the eye movement is translated an extra motion in the object
> being viewed.

While I would accept the above explaination, I'd also like to
add that a number of LEO spacecraft are routinely maneuvered. With
many thousands of objects out there - there's a non-zero chance that
some day, one will be performing its orbital makeup or a translate
while overhead your position. If the spacecraft is spin stabilized,
non-spin axis orbit changes are accomplished with short pulse burns
(sometimes affectionately called "bunny farts").

Depending on the maneuver and your viewing geometry, there's a
chance you may see a trajectory change. I doubt you'd see a zig-zag,
though.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
.-.
| .====== .__. /~| \
| ____ |_ /____~-._.'__|__) /------------------~
<( ( |. _|_.'......./ Brett M. Wayne |
| ~-..======-....----~ \o \ b...@ccnet.com |
| |_/ \------------------~
(_)

[Stargazer]

Thanks to those who responded to my post.

By a very rough guesstimate, the "object" jumped (forwards
and sideways) about the width of 4 fingers at arms length, in
a sec or two. In between these maybe 4 or 5 jumps, it appeared
like a normal satellite on a northerly course. It was a naked
eye observation.

So if it was only ONE object, I don't really see how it can
be explained (other than a as a "UFO-phenomenon")

If it was a bunch of objects, then I see 2 explanations:

1. Falling space debris
It didn't look anything like a shooting star, though, and it
would really be a coincidence if one piece became visible
almost at the same moment another disappeared.

2. Group of satellites.
It could perhaps have been a group of satellites that by
accident or design (SDI ?) appeared in this fashion ?

Being on the subject of strange observations, here's
another one:

Facing North, I saw (naked eye) an object moving East to
West. Angle about 70 dgs. I observed it for about 3 min,
during which it slowly changed course, so that it was heading
North when I lost it.

So this seems like a normal observation of a plane.

What I don't understand is this:

The object seemed to make small, fast (irregular) corrections
to it's course (kinda like snake-like movements).
To put it another way: the object seemed to be able to make
small changes to it's course almost instantly.

Given the momentum of a plane, this seems strange to me.

Could it perhaps be due to wind conditions that made the
plane descend and ascend rapidly ? (though it seemed like
horizontal movements).

I've seen this kind of movement several times, so
I'm sure others must have seen this also.

- Stargazer

----------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <Dwyt9...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
pc...@karma.astro.Virginia.EDU says...

[Stargazer]

Uh, the latest observation I mentioned was clearly not
a satellite (it was much to slow, and it changed from
heading west to heading north during the 3 min. I followed
it). So it must have been a plane (assuming an earthly origin !)

- Stargazer.

In article <322aeeef...@news.demon.co.uk>,
ni...@nigshuck.demon.co.uk says...

>
>I see a small zig-zag effect with nearly every satellite I see; I have
>asumed that it is an artifact of the sat. being an effective point
>source and the convection cells in the atmosphere at my very noticably
>poor-seeing back garden. I suppose this would mean that it should be
>more apparent at lower altitude, I'll check on the next clear night
>(sometime next year, probably).
>

>Cheers
>
>Nigel
>
>

[Andrew Cott]

In article <bmw-0209...@h98-155.ccnet.com>, b...@ccnet.com says...

[snip]

>Depending on the maneuver and your viewing geometry, there's a
>chance you may see a trajectory change. I doubt you'd see a zig-zag,
>though.

Erm, I seriously doubt you'd see a maneuver, even during the burn.
Considering a low altitude object is travelling at many km per second, it
would take quite an energetic maneuver to cause even a 10 degree change in
the perceived course of the object through the sky. For that to happen, a
few hundred meters per sec delta-v (assuming a purely cross-track maneuver)
is needed. And, because a delta-v like that is not impulsive, you stand
even less of a chance of perceiving it.

Andy.
--
Andrew Cott MIT Lincoln Laboratory co...@ll.mit.edu

[mattgrif...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 26, 1996 at 5:00:00 PM UTC+10, Stargazer wrote:
> Last thursday, around 11.30 pm, I saw an object I first took to be a
> run-of-the-mill satellite (allthough a little faint). I first noticed the
> object
> when it was nearly directly above me, in the western sky. It traveled on
> a northerly course, and when I last saw it, it was probably at an
> angle of about 45 degrees. The observation lasted about 30-40 seconds.
>
> Now for the strange part:
>
> After I had observed the object for about 5-10 secs, it suddenly
> disappeared for a sec, only to appear a second (or so) later, markedly
> ahead on its course and offset from it ! At first I thought my eyes were
> playing tricks on me, but no, this object made zig-zag jumps at least
> 5 times (in the same manner) while I watched ! The sky was VERY clear,
> and the jumps were quite noticeable. Between "jumps", it continued
> on its northerly course.
>

> I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe (with an internet
> connection) to have seen this !
>
>
> I have absolutely no explanation for this observation. Any theories ?
>
>

> - Stargazer

I have just seen a similar thing. Approx 18:50 19/7/20 Miles, Qld Australia.
Nice clear night with the milky way visible.
Looked to be a normal satellite tracking right to left.
It made a sharp 90d turn up, then 90d left then 90d up again and then left again.
About 2 fingers on outstretched arm track on each turn, about 3 or 4 seconds run on each track.
The speed during the zig zag seemed to be faster than the original track speed.
I quickly went inside and turned the lights out for a better view and returned outside to see it (faintly) on the right to left track.
It then arced down to the left, straightened to about the original track altitude and faded out.
A couple of brighter flashes after it returned to original track before the the downward arc.

Military satellite maneuvers?

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-4, mattgrif...@gmail.com wrote:


> I have just seen a similar thing. Approx 18:50 19/7/20 Miles, Qld Australia.
> Nice clear night with the milky way visible.
> Looked to be a normal satellite tracking right to left.
> It made a sharp 90d turn up, then 90d left then 90d up again and then left again.
> About 2 fingers on outstretched arm track on each turn, about 3 or 4 seconds run on each track.
> The speed during the zig zag seemed to be faster than the original track speed.
> I quickly went inside and turned the lights out for a better view and returned outside to see it (faintly) on the right to left track.
> It then arced down to the left, straightened to about the original track altitude and faded out.
> A couple of brighter flashes after it returned to original track before the the downward arc.
>
> Military satellite maneuvers?

Mylar party balloon being buffeted by wind?

[Chris L Peterson]

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 03:21:44 -0700 (PDT), mattgrif...@gmail.com
wrote:

Nothing in space does that. It was in the lower atmosphere, whatever
it was.

[mattgrif...@gmail.com]

Understood, may have been a silver or white balloon being disturbed by pressure variants, but the ID as a typical satellite tracking is confident high.
The sky did go dark (cloud cover) with only the 2 brightest stars visible 1/2 hour later.
Front may have moved in causing an atmospheric reflective object to zig zag and do it's thing?

[Pent]

Nice reply to a 24 year old message.

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

That's the answer that I already gave to you, if by "pressure variants" you mean wind.

A satellite might be moving at 17000 MPH, and to halt that motion and change it to a direction that is 90-degrees different is going to require massive amounts of fuel and more time than you are describing.

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

And?

[mattgrif...@gmail.com]

I was blocked with last message reply via gmail,
to wsn,,,@hotmail - I replied "loked 100% like a satellite track"

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

A satellite moving at 17,000 MPH is not going to be able to zig-zag like that. The G-forces alone would tear it apart, even if it had rockets powerful enough to maneuver it the manner that you described.

Have you been checked for nystagmus, vertigo or migraines?

[palsing]

On Monday, August 26, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Stargazer wrote:
> Last thursday, around 11.30 pm, I saw an object I first took to be a
> run-of-the-mill satellite (allthough a little faint). I first noticed the
> object
> when it was nearly directly above me, in the western sky. It traveled on
> a northerly course, and when I last saw it, it was probably at an
> angle of about 45 degrees. The observation lasted about 30-40 seconds.
>
> Now for the strange part:
>
> After I had observed the object for about 5-10 secs, it suddenly
> disappeared for a sec, only to appear a second (or so) later, markedly
> ahead on its course and offset from it ! At first I thought my eyes were
> playing tricks on me, but no, this object made zig-zag jumps at least
> 5 times (in the same manner) while I watched ! The sky was VERY clear,
> and the jumps were quite noticeable. Between "jumps", it continued
> on its northerly course.
>
> I can't believe I'm the only person in the universe (with an internet
> connection) to have seen this !
>
>
> I have absolutely no explanation for this observation. Any theories ?
>
>
> - Stargazer

My guess would be that perhaps you were observing a Noss cluster of satellites. These guys travel in pairs or trios and are mostly very dim, but sometimes are definitely naked-eye. Each cluster obviously follows the same orbit, but in reality, they follow parallel tracks across the sky and one is usually ahead of the other...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Ocean_Surveillance_System

... see the photos. Also, this page is great...

http://www.satobs.org/noss.html#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Government%20ceased%20publishing,to%20compute%20their%20orbital%20elements.

If the night was such that maybe there were some high clouds that one or the other of a pair were to wink in-and-out, it could look like a single satellite was jumping back-and-forth or even forward-and-backward. It would look really crazy if it were a winking trio!

I've observed NOSS clusters many times in the past, but not recently since https://www.heavens-above.com/ quit supplying the observing data.

[wsne...@hotmail.com]

The US NOSS sats have dispersed. The Chinese "NOSS-like" satellites are still in formation. http://www.satobs.org/noss.html (scroll to the end.)

Heavens-Above can possibly help in possibly identifying what the "new OP" possibly saw, if he kept good records.

Or, his eyes could be playing tricks on him or some covid-party-attendee lost one of her helium-filled mylar balloons.