Star name pronunciation?
Dave Jessie
Is there a definitive source for the correct pronunciation of star names?
For instance, is MIRA pronounced "MY ra" or "MERE a" or "MEE ra" ???
Thanks!
Dave
John Gretchen
http://www.earthsky.com/Features/Skywatching/pronounce.html
--
Clear skies,
John N. Gretchen III
Port O'Connor, Texas
http://www.tisd.net/~jng3/stars/ [updated 10/01/01]
Michael A. Covington
next book (see http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/telescope). Being a
linguist by profession, I think I'm qualified...
> Is there a definitive source for the correct pronunciation of star names?
No. Many of the names are corrupted Arabic and have not been pronounced
"correctly" for centuries. In a good many cases we don't even know what
Arabic words they're derived from. And some names, such as "Albireo," are
completely mysterious. ("Albireo" seems to have originated as a spelling
error.)
However, some star names are listed in large dictionaries, and there is a
chart in Norton's Star Atlas, as well as one or two charts on the Internet.
> For instance, is MIRA pronounced "MY ra" or "MERE a" or "MEE ra" ???
That one happens to be Latin, so your question has an answer. And the
answer is complicated!
In the "English Method" (the way Latin was pronounced in England c.
1600-1900), it's "MY-ra". That's how I usually still pronounce it in
English context.
However, the ancient Romans, and Europeans of subsequent eras outside
Britain, say something more like "MEE-ra" (actually between "MEE-ra" and
"MERE-a"). That is the "correct" Latin pronunciation.
In general, with star names, any pronunciation that fits the spelling is
probably acceptable. With other astronomical names you have to choose
between several rival systems of pronouncing Latin.
Clear skies,
Michael Covington
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
www.covingtoninnovations.com
Mark Wilden
news:9r4ac6$723$1...@cronkite.cc.uga.edu...
>
> In general, with star names, any pronunciation that fits the spelling is
> probably acceptable. With other astronomical names you have to choose
> between several rival systems of pronouncing Latin.
Another way to look at it is to use the pronunciation that is most likely to
be understood by your listener, whether it's "correct" or not. So even
though I'm a former classical languages major, I wouldn't research what the
ancient Romans said, nor how British public schoolboys pronounced Latin, but
rather what the average person who uses the word says. Such a list would be
really useful to me, at least.
Brian Tung
> No. Many of the names are corrupted Arabic and have not been pronounced
> "correctly" for centuries. In a good many cases we don't even know what
> Arabic words they're derived from. And some names, such as "Albireo," are
> completely mysterious. ("Albireo" seems to have originated as a spelling
> error.)
I was reading Asimov the other day--The Secret of the Universe, his
last collection of MFSF--and chanced upon an essay about Io. In it,
he mentions that the English pronunciation of Io is "EYE-oh," which
he uses, but that many people have taken to the Greek pronunciation,
which is "EE-oh."
I remember, in the past, thinking that one really ought to pronounce
it as "EE-oh" to be correct, but yesterday, it occurred to me: Does
anyone pronounce the other three as they were pronounced in ancient
Greek? Surely Ganymede wasn't pronounced "GAN-uh-meed," was it?
By the way, Michael, we're not done with Albireo. I still would like
a chance to pick your brain on that one. :)
Brian Tung <br...@isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
My Own Personal FAQ (SAA) at http://astro.isi.edu/reference/faq.txt
Michael A. Covington
> > In general, with star names, any pronunciation that fits the spelling is
> > probably acceptable. With other astronomical names you have to choose
> > between several rival systems of pronouncing Latin.
>
> Another way to look at it is to use the pronunciation that is most likely
to
> be understood by your listener, whether it's "correct" or not. So even
> though I'm a former classical languages major, I wouldn't research what
the
> ancient Romans said, nor how British public schoolboys pronounced Latin,
but
> rather what the average person who uses the word says. Such a list would
be
> really useful to me, at least.
Yes... but in listening to professional astronomers I find a bewildering
variety of pronunciations. No less than the rest of us, they just take
guesses, most of the time!
Michael A. Covington
> a chance to pick your brain on that one. :)
I think were it last stood, it was a mistranscription of "ab ireo," but
nobody really knows what "ireo" means (there's no such Latin word). Any
further news?
Peter Besenbruch
wrote:
>and chanced upon an essay about Io. In it,
>he mentions that the English pronunciation of Io is "EYE-oh," which
>he uses, but that many people have taken to the Greek pronunciation,
>which is "EE-oh."
EE, or EYE, EE, EYE OH.
Hmm, I want to buy a farm.
__________________________________________________________
http://www.hawastsoc.org/ (Hawaiian Astronomical Society)
http://www.hawastsoc.org/deepsky/ (Deepsky Atlas)
Dave Jessie
"Michael A. Covington" <m...@deletethisword.uga.edu> wrote in message
news:9r4ac6$723$1...@cronkite.cc.uga.edu...
> In general, with star names, any pronunciation that fits the spelling is
> probably acceptable. With other astronomical names you have to choose
> between several rival systems of pronouncing Latin.
>
While we're on the subject...
Surely THIS one has a correct pronunciation:
Messier !!!! I've heard this one pronounced
1) "MESSY ER"
2) "MESS E AY"
3) "MEE ZIER"
4) "MEEZ IER"
5) "MEZ E AY"
My daughter majored in French translation in college and attended Mt.
Pellier in France. According to her, the first one I listed is the closest
to correct. Any takers on this one???
Dave
William R. Mattil
Anyone who follows Hockey would have no trouble with this one :^)
Bill
Michael A. Covington
> Surely THIS one has a correct pronunciation:
>
> Messier !!!! I've heard this one pronounced
> 1) "MESSY ER"
> 2) "MESS E AY"
> 3) "MEE ZIER"
> 4) "MEEZ IER"
> 5) "MEZ E AY"
Yes. It's a real French name, pronounced roughly "mess-YAY" or "mez-ee-AY"
depending on whether you like to run syllables together :)
dnd...@bellsouth.net
> I was reading Asimov the other day--The Secret of the Universe, his
> last collection of MFSF--and chanced upon an essay about Io. In it,
> he mentions that the English pronunciation of Io is "EYE-oh," which
> he uses, but that many people have taken to the Greek pronunciation,
> which is "EE-oh."
>
> I remember, in the past, thinking that one really ought to pronounce
> it as "EE-oh" to be correct, but yesterday, it occurred to me: Does
> anyone pronounce the other three as they were pronounced in ancient
> Greek? Surely Ganymede wasn't pronounced "GAN-uh-meed," was it?
The Io pronunciation question brings to mind a speaker at one of our club
meetings. He was a scientist involved with NASA's planetary missions or some
such thing. Anyhow, he related how he was visiting a university in the Midwest
and was told that it's not pronounced EYE-oh, it's EE-oh. He thanked that
person, incorporating the name of their institute of learning is his remark -
the University of EE-oh-wa.
And while we're on that subject, was that early attempt at a subcompact car a
VAY-ga or a VEE-ga?
Danny Cobb
Daniel
>
> Is there a definitive source for the correct pronunciation of star names?
>
Another resource: http://www.astroleague.org/al/astrnote/astnot07.html
Daniel
Esmail Bonakdarian
>
> The Io pronunciation question brings to mind a speaker at one of our club
> meetings. He was a scientist involved with NASA's planetary missions or some
> such thing. Anyhow, he related how he was visiting a university in the Midwest
> and was told that it's not pronounced EYE-oh, it's EE-oh. He thanked that
> person, incorporating the name of their institute of learning is his remark -
> the University of EE-oh-wa.
Good one .. sorry I missed that talk :-) [UI alumni]
---
Esmail Bonakdarian - esm...@cs.mercer.edu - http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~bonak
32N 83W http://www.cs.mercer.edu/bonak
Stephen Tonkin
[...]
>For instance, is MIRA pronounced "MY ra" or "MERE a" or "MEE ra" ???
Further to Michael's informative posts may I add that, whichever
pronunciation you choose to use, it is likely that the only people who
purport to misunderstand you will be pedants whose own 'rules' of
pronunciation are probably internally inconsistent anyway [1]. Given
that the purpose of speech is communication, any pronunciation that is
understandable is acceptable [2].
[1] As are mine. I generally go for the classical Latin pronunciations
that I learned at school, but baulk at 'WEERgo'.
[2] And resorting to Bayer names is no easy opt-out, since several Greek
letters are horrendously mispronounced by most English speakers!
Best,
Stephen
--
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+ Stephen Tonkin | ATM Resources; Astro-Tutorials; Astro Books +
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Stephen Tonkin
[...]
>The Io pronunciation question brings to mind a speaker at one of our club
>meetings.
It also brings to mind a newsreader who pronounced it 'TEN'.
Esmail Bonakdarian
>
> dnd...@bellsouth.net Wrote:
> [...]
> >The Io pronunciation question brings to mind a speaker at one of our club
> >meetings.
>
> It also brings to mind a newsreader who pronounced it 'TEN'.
Please tell me you are kidding! Right??
Pierre Dessemontet
>
> Yes. It's a real French name, pronounced roughly "mess-YAY" or "mez-ee-AY"
> depending on whether you like to run syllables together :)
I do concur with the first version of it (mess), and french is my
mother tongue, so don't argue with me (too much!)!
More seriously, the subject on how to pronounce a star name, if we
were to take it academically, would certainly lead to a heated
argument between people of different mother tongues. Each language has
its way to pronounce them and probably each side thinks its way is the
correct one.
Since we're in the subject, I take the occasion to answer to the best
of my knowledge to a question that you posted long ago on this group
concerning the supposed star name BOGARDUS that appears on Meade star
lists:
Star names are one of my passions and I have been researching arabic,
chinese, pacific as well as medieval sources for some years now (yes,
one day I'll put it on the web...old project of mine). I have never, I
repeat, never encountered BOGARDUS as a proper name for Theta Aur (or
for any other star) in any of the sources I consulted, read or
compiled. Even if it sounds quite like old medieval corrupted latin,
it does not appear on any medieval source that I happened to come
across (And I humbly think I have a good library on them), be it a
latin translation of the almagest, a more modern nautical source or
anything. The only place I remember having seen it is on an internet
list 2 or 3 years ago (listing that has since then disappeared), that
is after Meade used it. If you run a search on the net now, it will
return listings made by and for Meade telescope users. If I were to
emit an opinion on this, I very much think that the origin of this
name is somewhere to be found on the then Meade staff.
Hope this helps,
Pierre
jerry warner
Stephen Tonkin
[...]
>> It also brings to mind a newsreader who pronounced it 'TEN'.
>
>Please tell me you are kidding! Right??
Not kidding -- ISTR that the full details were posted here.
[OT]
Other distinguished newsreader gaffes include a reference to the British
monarch as Queen Elizabeth the Eleventh and, in the same bulletin,
mention of the island of IZ-lay in the HEE-brydz. Heaven only knows how
she would have mangled my favourite tipple from that island, Laphroaig.
[/OT]
Michael A. Covington
> Webster's Dictionary -
Balderdash. Noah Webster died in 1867. Two major publishing firms, and
many minor ones, now publish completely different dictionaries that they
call "Webster's." The dictionaries often disagree with each other. Anyhow,
few if any of them list star names.
Sjoplinh
repeat, never encountered BOGARDUS as a proper name for Theta Aur (or
for any other star) in any of the sources I consulted, read or
Maybe leave out the "ARD". ;-)
sj
Stephen Tonkin
Or maybe the originator of the name had been watching Easy Rider and the
result is just the Western N. American pronunciation of his suggestion?
b...@mycomputer.example.net
>
> For instance, is MIRA pronounced "MY ra" or "MERE a" or "MEE ra" ???
>
Esmail Bonakdarian
>
> Esmail Bonakdarian <esm...@cs.mercer.edu> wrote:
> [...]
> >> It also brings to mind a newsreader who pronounced it 'TEN'.
> >
> >Please tell me you are kidding! Right??
>
> Not kidding -- ISTR that the full details were posted here.
Unbelievable. Well, then again .. maybe not. Thanks.
Esmail
Tony Flanders
> More seriously, the subject on how to pronounce a star name, if we
> were to take it academically, would certainly lead to a heated
> argument between people of different mother tongues. Each language has
> its way to pronounce them ...
Hmm, I'm not so sure about that. Seems to me that most languages
avoid pronouncing them whenever possible. "Zuben el Genubi" is a
great name, but when is the last time that you used it in conversation?
And it's not just restricted to exotic stars; even the boldest
speakers shy away from "Betelgeuse".
- Tony Flanders
Kerry Shetline
> In the "English Method" (the way Latin was pronounced in England c.
> 1600-1900), it's "MY-ra". That's how I usually still pronounce it in
> English context.
>
> However, the ancient Romans, and Europeans of subsequent eras outside
> Britain, say something more like "MEE-ra" (actually between "MEE-ra" and
> "MERE-a"). That is the "correct" Latin pronunciation.
It's very hard to accept the "correct" Latin pronunciation sometimes. For
instance, the famous "Veni, vidi, vici" (I came, I saw, I conquered) becomes
"WENee WEEDee WEECHee".
Hey, maybe with Julius Caesar as portrayed by Elmer Fudd, but otherwise I'll
go with the corrupted anglicized version :)
-Kerry
Brian Tung
> It's very hard to accept the "correct" Latin pronunciation sometimes.
> For instance, the famous "Veni, vidi, vici" (I came, I saw, I
> conquered) becomes "WENee WEEDee WEECHee".
You mean "WEEK-ee." Or are you using--ulch--church Latin?
> Hey, maybe with Julius Caesar as portrayed by Elmer Fudd, but otherwise
> I'll go with the corrupted anglicized version :)
Wewus est, Kewwy. Kwad ewat demonstwatum. :)
Mark Wilden
news:9r9rb9$1uj$1...@zot.isi.edu...
>
> Wewus est, Kewwy. Kwad ewat demonstwatum. :)
It's "demonstwandum," Bwian.
william meyers
Hi, Esmail,
Do you have an evil twin? Or a good twin? Or is there a doppelganger lurking about?
If not, how about "alumnus?" Or were you responding on behalf of your compatriots at
UI?
Clear skies,
Bill Meyers
Esmail Bonakdarian
>
> Hi, Esmail,
> Do you have an evil twin? Or a good twin? Or is there a doppelganger lurking about?
> If not, how about "alumnus?"
Ugh .. you are right of course .. the only [feeble] excuse I have for myself is
that English was not my native language - though I have quit thinking of it as
a foreign language for many years.
Oh yes, and there are all those letters I keep getting from the UI Alumi
organization, see, they made me do it :-) They are the ones who planted
that word in my mind!
> Clear skies,
I wish. I was just reading about the Bortle scale, and now I am really
depressed, my sky conditions rate 8/9 .... 1 is Nirvana - I wonder where
that might be ...
http://www.skypub.com/resources/lightpollution/bortlescale.html
Thanks for the correction.
Cheers,
Esmail
Brian Tung
> > Wewus est, Kewwy. Kwad ewat demonstwatum. :)
>
> It's "demonstwandum," Bwian.
You aw wight, oh Mawk. May I be weweased? Wewease Bwian!
Bwian Tung <br...@isi.edu>
The Astwonomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PweiadAtwas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
Mark Wilden
> Mawk Wilden wote:
> > > Wewus est, Kewwy. Kwad ewat demonstwatum. :)
> >
> > It's "demonstwandum," Bwian.
>
> You aw wight, oh Mawk. May I be weweased? Wewease Bwian!
LOL! Imagine some poor newbie stumbling into this conversation...:)
Stephen Tonkin
But Bwian was wefewwing to an awkeowogical wayer of evil spiwits!
Kerry Shetline
> > It's very hard to accept the "correct" Latin pronunciation sometimes.
> > For instance, the famous "Veni, vidi, vici" (I came, I saw, I
> > conquered) becomes "WENee WEEDee WEECHee".
>
> You mean "WEEK-ee." Or are you using--ulch--church Latin?
Sorry about that! Then of course there's the WENee WEEDee WOOKee
pronunciation -- but this is only used in a galaxy far, far away. This
pronunciation, if used on Earth, translates to "I came, I saw, I choked on a
giant hairball".
-Kerry
Les Blalock
eyepieces out of my mind.
Les Blalock
Odessa, TX
http://www.cableone.net/les/Astro/
But I really like The PweiadAtwas
ww
tfla...@my-deja.com says...
> And it's not just restricted to exotic stars; even the boldest
> speakers shy away from "Betelgeuse".
I had to use http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm to hear this one. LOL!
-was
grumpa
"ww" <ohpl...@dont.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1658fea37...@news.earthlink.net...
It was when I was 7 and still is in my 60's, pronounced "Beetle Juice".
What's the problem?
It is also really pronounced "Vaga" not "Veeeega" and "U ran' us" not "Ur'
an us". The modern revisionists are not always correct.
Jule J. DuBois at 42N 89.6W
Brian Tung
> It was when I was 7 and still is in my 60's, pronounced "Beetle Juice".
> What's the problem?
The "problem" is that the word is significantly corrupted from its
Arabic roots. (Richard Allen's history of the name is apparently not
quite correct.) As I understand it, it came from an Arabic phrase
approximating "yad al jawza" and some people find it irresistible to
pronounce it as "Bettlejaws" in an attempt to reflect that origin.
For what it's worth, I also pronounce it as "Beetlejuice."
> It is also really pronounced "Vaga" not "Veeeega" and "U ran' us" not
> "Ur' an us". The modern revisionists are not always correct.
If it comes to that, I could claim that the original "revisionists" were
the Romans and that the "real" spelling is (the Greek alphabet equivalent
of) "Ouranos," pronounced like "Owe-RON-us." On the other hand, many
people won't have the slightest idea which planet I'm talking about.
When giving brief presentations to the public, rather than debating
pronunciation with other astro people, I say "VAY-ga" and "YOUR-in-us"--
the latter in part because most 12-year-old boys haven't heard of the
word "urinous" and don't break up into interminable laughter when I crack
that pronunciation out.
The upshot is that there is no one "real" pronunciation anymore, and the
one I use is generally the one that produces the fewest blank stares.
In other words, for "veni vidi vici," I say "venny viddy veechy" and not
"wenny weedy weeky" unless I'm just posturing. (I do that every now and
then. Really.)
Brian Tung <br...@isi.edu>
The Astronomy Corner at http://astro.isi.edu/
Unofficial C5+ Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/c5plus/
The PleiadAtlas Home Page at http://astro.isi.edu/pleiadatlas/
Andy Blackburn
using Real Player
Here is the URL:
http://www.earthsky.com/Features/Skywatching/pronounce.html
Clear Skies!
Andy Blackburn
----------------------------------
Andy's Astronomy Page:
http://home.g-net.net/~andy/astro.htm
Oglethorpe Astronomical Association:
http://home.g-net.net/~oaa/
grumpa
Almost every word that I speak in my Midwestern English accent is a
corruption of English as spoken originally.
Just having fun, but there is a small point here. When talking to children
about astronomy, which I do often, I can always get their attention by
calling the star "Beetle Juice", and that is more important IMHO than being
true to proper pronunciation.
Regards
Jule J. DuBois at 43N 89.6W