How I got kicked off of Astromart - A disappointing experience
Michael A. Covington
small pieces of equipment (a Telrad base, a 12-volt power supply, and a
foam-lined case for a C8).
In the process of signing up for my account, I gave my web address because
Astromart asked for it. It happens to be the web site of my book,
Astrophotography for the Amateur. (Please note that I do not sell anything
from this web site. The publisher sells the books; I only write them.)
All the instructions that I could find on Astromart strongly encourage
people to give web addresses. One of my ads also contained a completely
noncommercial link to a page describing the item I was selling.
I got e-mail from Herb York telling me that I could not post a web link in
the text of an ad. So I edited the ad, replacing the link with an
explanation that links are not permitted here.
Bang! I got more e-mail. My account was revoked and all my ads were
deleted, because of "negative comments about Astromart" and because all my
ads gave my web address (because I had been prompted to enter it when
setting up my account).
Well... If he wanted me to sign up as an Astromart sponsor, he could have
asked for that, without cancelling the account and deleting the ads! But I
am not going to pay $75 per year to carry out a one-time sale of about $100
worth of equipment. Astromart's published rules say that "OEMs/ATMs" have
to pay sponsorship fees, and that's not what I am. I don't manufacture
anything astronomical.
In any case, I am no longer recommending Astromart. I do not like being
punished for violating rules that are not disclosed in advance.
Clear skies,
Michael Covington
Author, Astrophotography for the Amateur
(Now working on a book on computerized telescopes)
http://www.CovingtonInnovations.com/astro <><
Al
I'm not speaking to defend Herb...I'm sure he can do that himself. While it
can be argued that your web page does not actually sell a product, you can't
deny that it promotes the product. These rules are stated (quite clearly, I
think) when you originally sign up for the service.
The very same thing happened to me a few months ago. I placed an ad using
my web page and Herb deleted the ad and sent me an email reminding me of the
rules. I simply offered my apology (for not having carefully read the
rules) and that was the end of it.
Al
"Michael A. Covington" <see.www.covingtoninnovations.com.for.address@x>
wrote in message news:WBLx6.4038$mA.14...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
P and A
It just seems
to be his way of doing things. If he wanted you to sign up as an Astromart
sponsor,
he could have asked for that, without cancelling the account and deleting the
doing things with astromart. All I can say is next time do it your way (the
right way) and not his (it won't work).
Herb York
off his free ad or if he was interested he could sponsor. His ads were not
deleted at that point. He then emailed me that he took the link out of the
text and I responded with a thank you. I later checked his ad to see if he
had really removed the link and found this :
UNFORTUNATELY, Astromart will not let a private individual post a web
address in the text of an ad, so I am not allowed to tell you *where* to see
this box on the web! However, if you go to my main Web site and choose
"links" and then search for "foam" on the links page, you'll find it.
- and his link to his for profit book site was still on his 3 ads.
I THEN deleted his ads and account.
I have had over 10 emails with Mr. Covington today and find that he is one
of a group that feels that AstroMart is his right not his privilege. I had a
simple request that he take the links to his for profit book site out of his
ad. All he had to do was take it off. He chose to take an adversarial
position. After I deleted his account I again emailed him to say he was
welcome to post his ads without his link.
The rule on ads is simple - If God posted an ad for an astronomical product
it is fine - if he posted it with a link to where to buy his book he would
be asked to be a sponsor or remove the link to his book site. If a person is
a dealer and I know he is a dealer he/she is asked to be a sponsor or not
post ads even without a link.
Sponsors help pay the cost of operating AstroMart. This week alone we needed
to buy another server and added another $80 per month in bandwidth cost to
provide the FORUMS for people that want to use it. When you compare the
traffic on the FORUMS to the traffic on AstroMart I think you can get a
small sense of the costs involved in operating this service not counting
monitoring and programming costs and daily maintenance. We are happy to
provide the service but it is not fair for some companies and individuals
that help pay the costs of AstroMart while others feel they are above it for
some reason. If you want to advertise your for profit products on AstroMart
we welcome the sponsorship.
Herb
http://www.AstroMart.com
(360)588-9000
(800)850-2001
Michael A. Covington
"Herb York" <ztr...@fidalgo.net> wrote in message
news:98615968...@localhost.fidalgo.net...
> Mike was not kicked off AstroMart. He was asked to take his for profit
link
> off his free ad or if he was interested he could sponsor. His ads were not
> deleted at that point. He then emailed me that he took the link out of the
> text and I responded with a thank you. I later checked his ad to see if he
> had really removed the link and found this :
>
> UNFORTUNATELY, Astromart will not let a private individual post a web
> address in the text of an ad, so I am not allowed to tell you *where* to
see
> this box on the web! However, if you go to my main Web site and choose
> "links" and then search for "foam" on the links page, you'll find it.
>
> - and his link to his for profit book site was still on his 3 ads.
Simply because I didn't understand which link you wanted me to remove. I
removed the link in the text. The link that was part of my
account identification had been there for months or years -- as long as I
have had the account -- and had appeared in other ads of mine without
incurring any objections.
Also, in e-mail you told me you had cancelled my account for posting
"negative comments about Astromart." All I was doing was describing your
own policy truthfully, as far as I could tell.
> I THEN deleted his ads and account.
> I have had over 10 emails with Mr. Covington today and find that he is one
> of a group that feels that AstroMart is his right not his privilege.
No, I said explicitly in e-mail that since it's your private site, you can
make any rules you'd like, but you should disclose them accurately in
advance. Nothing on your site indicated to me in advance that book authors
(not vendors) were required to pay sponsorship.
> I had a
> simple request that he take the links to his for profit book site out of
his
> ad. All he had to do was take it off.
Will you tell me how to do that? It was part of the account identification
information and had been present in several of my earlier (private) ads on
Astromart without drawing any objections from you. It was not part of the
editable text of the ad.
> The rule on ads is simple - If God posted an ad for an astronomical
product
> it is fine - if he posted it with a link to where to buy his book he would
> be asked to be a sponsor or remove the link to his book site. If a person
is
> a dealer and I know he is a dealer he/she is asked to be a sponsor or not
> post ads even without a link.
OK, say that on Astromart, please! Your current User's Guide (as of this
afternoon) does *not* say that links to commercial web sites in ads are
prohibited. The reason my web address was in those ads is that I was told
to type it when setting up my account. *Nothing* on that page told me that
I was prohibited to use a commercial web address.
I have placed several personal ads in the past with that same web address in
them.
You can make whatever rules you want, but please disclose them in advance
rather than cancelling ads that were posted in good faith by people who had
no way of knowing the ads were against your rules.
> Sponsors help pay the cost of operating AstroMart.
I know that, and I'm not opposed to sponsorship. But your web page says
that "OEMs/ATMs" pay sponsorship fees. I am not an Original Equipment
Manufacturer (OEM), nor an Amateur Telescope Maker (ATM) (nor an Automatic
Teller Machine, nor an Asynchronous Transfer Mode).
If what you meant to say was, "Telescope makers and all types of
astronomy-related businesses are not allowed to post ads unless they are
paying sponsors," then that is what you should say. It's a reasonable
policy, but it's not what the web page currently says.
> We are happy to
> provide the service but it is not fair for some companies and individuals
> that help pay the costs of AstroMart while others feel they are above it
for
> some reason. If you want to advertise your for profit products on
AstroMart
> we welcome the sponsorship.
I do not "feel I am above it," I am simply taken aback that something which
you have permitted me to do in the past -- and which is not indicated to be
impermissible anywhere on your web site that I can find -- is now, suddenly,
today, grounds for account revocation!
I was actually seriously thinking of becoming an Astromart sponsor, and had
put it off because it would involve trying to persuade my publisher to pay
for it. (My contract says the publisher pays all advertising costs.) If
you still want me to do so, send me e-mail and I'll tell you what you must
to do get my business.
Michael A. Covington
it
> can be argued that your web page does not actually sell a product, you
can't
> deny that it promotes the product. These rules are stated (quite clearly,
I
> think) when you originally sign up for the service.
I can understand how he could classify my site as too commercial, but the
way he handled today's incident was unduly heavy-handed. The rule that I
was looking at, and which he quoted to me in e-mail, specified "OEMs/ATMs"
which I am not. And I had been allowed to use the same web address on
earlier ads without objection.
--
Michael A. Covington
boxes for profit, as you may have thought. I made *one* box and published,
on my private web page, a description of how to do it. I no longer need the
one I made, so I'm selling it at a loss.
Herb York
I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat. During or email storm
earlier today AstroMart suffered an outage that lasted about 1 hour so if
you tried to resign during that time it was not possible.
You are welcome to use the site and if you want to put your link to your for
profit book site you need only contact privately to discuss.
Thank you
Michael A. Covington
"Zeek" <zui...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3AC7BEBE...@yahoo.com...I suppose it would have been too difficult for him to get a yahoo or tripod account to post his pictures on. I agree with Herb, Astromart is a privilege. One does not HAVE to use it. There are always other channels for one to sell their astro-items, Astromart happens to be the most popular, which is why I use it (and abide by it's rules).
Zeek
Right, Zeek, but what posted rule was I violating? I've been looking back at AstroMart, and although dealers, manufacturers, and telescope makers are prohibited from advertising without paying a sponsorship fee, I am not any of those things. I do not sell books -- I only write them. And anyhow the ads were for three one-of-a-kind items.AstroMart can have any rules it likes, but it should disclose them!
--
Clear skies,
Michael A. Covington
"Michael A. Covington" <see.www.covingtoninnovations.com.for.address@x>
wrote in message news:VcPx6.4830$mA.15...@newsrump.sjc.telocity.net...
> > I'm not speaking to defend Herb...I'm sure he can do that himself.
While
> it
> > can be argued that your web page does not actually sell a product, you
> can't
> > deny that it promotes the product. These rules are stated (quite
clearly,
> I
> > think) when you originally sign up for the service.
The exact rule is:
"2.1 Your Information (or any items listed therein): (a) shall not be false,
inaccurate or misleading; (b) shall not be fraudulent or involve the sale of
counterfeit or stolen items; (c) shall not infringe any third party's
copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret or other proprietary rights or
rights of publicity or privacy; (d) shall not violate any law, statute,
ordinance or regulation (including without limitation those governing export
control, consumer protection, unfair competition, anti-discrimination or
false advertising); (e) shall not be defamatory, trade libelous, unlawfully
threatening or unlawfully harassing; (f) shall not be obscene, adult in
nature, harmful to minors or contain child pornography; (g) shall not
contain any viruses, Trojan horses, worms, time bombs, cancelbots or other
computer programming routines that are intended to damage, detrimentally
interfere with, surreptitiously intercept or expropriate any system, data or
personal information; (h) shall not create liability for us or cause us to
lose (in whole or in part) the services of our ISPs or other suppliers; and
(i) shall not link directly or indirectly to or include descriptions of
goods or services that: (aa) are prohibited under this Agreement; (bb) are
identical to other items you have up for sale/auction but are priced lower
than your item's reserve or minimum bid amount; (cc) are concurrently listed
for auction/sale on a web site other than Astromart; or (dd) you do not have
a right to link to or include. Furthermore, you may not list any item on our
site (or consummate any transaction that was initiated using our service)
that, by paying to us the listing fee or the final value fee, could cause us
to violate any applicable law, statute, ordinance or regulation, or that is
not considered to be Astronomy equipment."
You tell me whether that prohibits a book author (NOT vendor, NOT selling
books) from linking to his astronomy web site, which happens to also be the
book's web site. I didn't think that was prohibited.
If Herb wants to prohibit it, he should tell us *before* we post ads. I am
glad to obey the rules provided I can find out what they are! Kicking me
off for violating rules I had no way of knowing about doesn't seem fair.
Michael A. Covington
Thanks, Herb. I reposted my ads (completely without web links of any kind).
I've also sent you a list of Astromart policy pages that need updating to
indicate your current policies accurately.
I can see how you might have thought I was building these telescope boxes
for profit, but I'm not... I only made one for my own use, and I'm selling
it at a considerable loss.
Also note that my web site does not sell my book, or anything else. If you
click "Ordering information" on my web site, you get sent to the publisher
or to various booksellers. There is no way to buy anything from me on my
web site. That is why I thought I was not a dealer as defined by your
rules. I can understand that you may want to change your rules to prohibit
indirect sales of this kind, but the present rules do not cover that
situation.
Steve Tyler
Herb, please contact privately to discuss your PR needs.
--
Steve Tyler
PR Services, Inc.
Dallas, TX
Michael A. Covington
"Zeek" <zui...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3AC7EADE...@yahoo.com...Probably none. There is a conflict of interest of sorts, though subtle. You sell an astro item like any other person. You put a link to a photo of said item, that happens to be the link for a book you authored. The link is to page that does not sell the book (as you said), however you still get royalties for each copy sold. The fact that there is a link to a page that promotes your book, is like free advertising for the book - extra traffic generated by virtue of an unrelated ad on Astromart. Again your are not selling the book, but generating more exposure (no pun) for it, driving one to search for a vendor..I do not think that this was your intent. As I suggested, a free web based photo service (yahoo pictures or similar) would be more appropriate. Just my $.02
Back to my point -- Although Herb's policy (no commercial links of any sort) is reasonable, it is not stated on Astromart at present, and that was my problem. I looked at the posted rules and was not violating them. In fact, as far as I know Herb sells my book and I was arguably helping him sell them! :)
The only reason my web address was on my ads is that when I signed up, Astromart asked me for my web address (with no indication that some kinds of web addresses were unacceptable), and that address appeared on all my ads from then on until I opened a new account today.
Anyhow, in spite of all these difficulties I sold all 3 items inside of 4 hours. Remarkable performance!
Richard Anderson
state? I don't remember any.
-Rich
Toddwx
presumably because he is trying to handle too much at one time. Just give him a
ring, he's easy to deal with on the phone
tg
Michael A. Covington
"Richard Anderson" <rande...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3ac8c21b.36744742@news...
> What "negative comments" about Astromart did you
> state? I don't remember any.
> -Rich
Something to the effect that, "Unfortunately, Astromart policy does not
allow me to post the web address at which you can see this item, but if you
go to my main web site and then follow "links" and search for "foam" you
will find it..."
Michael A. Covington
"Toddwx" <tod...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010402094019...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
I'm going to do that today; we expect to settle things amicably.
As I know from my day job, trying to enforce an acceptable-use policy in a
hurry is a process fraught with pitfalls!
Herb York
Herm
nice persons.
On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:43:10 -0700, "Steve Tyler" <step...@teleport.SPAAMIT.com>
wrote:
>Herb York wrote in message <98617081...@localhost.fidalgo.net>...
>>Mike,
>>I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat.
>
>Herb, please contact privately to discuss your PR needs.
Herm
Astropics http://home.att.net/~hermperez