Opinions on John Romer "Testament"
pp00...@interramp.com
A couple of years ago I watched a PBS TV program produced by John Romer called
"Testament" on the history (archaeological and otherwise) of the Bible. I
enjoyed it very much.
I was wondering what standing Romer has in the archaeological world. Is he a
recognized figure? He is a bit of a show-boat in the TV (albeit a very charming
and entertaining one). I would also be happy to learn that the archaelogy &
history he presented is well founded.
-- Leigh Anderson
Marc
Leigh,
Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
shouldn't matter should it?
Marc
Ferret
>Leigh,
>Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
>shouldn't matter should it?
I found his book Testament better than the documentary.
A good read unless you are a fundamentalist Xian.
Ferret
Michael Funk
> A couple of years ago I watched a PBS TV program produced by John Romer called
> "Testament" on the history (archaeological and otherwise) of the Bible. I
> enjoyed it very much.
I can't remember what the series was called, but he also did a six-parter
on the ancient Egyptians that was wonderful. If your cable service gets
TLC (The Learning Channel), check it out. They frequently run his docu-
mentaries (he's done quite a few).
Regards,
Mike
B. Allen
> Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
> shouldn't matter should it?
> Marc
If it turned out that Romer was a closet pyramidologist who did Tarot
readings in his basement, and schilled influenza cures based on a
concoction of green peppers and ground-up pencil erasers, I'd say yes it
would affect the way we saw his public efforts...
Imagine listening to a two-hour presentation on American politics without
knowing that it was Chomsky you were getting it from...!!!
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Allen az...@freenet.carleton.ca
"To have any opinion, one must overlook something" -- Charles Fort
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Card
>Imagine listening to a two-hour presentation on American politics without
>knowing that it was Chomsky you were getting it from...!!!
Actually, it might do the average US punter good to have their world view
shaken rattled and rolled. If you could persuade them to sit through a
two-hour presentation on anything :-)
--
__._____.___._____.__._______________________________________________________
__|_. ._| ._|_._._|__| Peter Card, Joint European Torus, Abingdon OX14 3EA
| | | |_. | | | p...@jet.uk or CIS 100010,366
| | | _| | | | "This space reserved for spontaneous witticism"
._| | | |_. | | | "This space intentionally left blank"
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- Disclaimer: Please note that the above is a personal view and should not
be construed as an official comment from the JET project.
pp00...@interramp.com
In article <3ca4vq$a...@jabba.cybernetics.net>, <mi...@cybernetics.net> writes:
>
> I can't remember what the series was called, but he also did a six-parter
> on the ancient Egyptians that was wonderful.
It was called "Ancient Lives". There is also a book published by the same
title.
-- Leigh
Benjamin Jay Britton
>>> history he presented is well founded.
>>>
>>> -- Leigh Anderson
>>>
> >
>> Leigh,
>> Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
>> shouldn't matter should it?
>> Marc
>
>If it turned out that Romer was a closet pyramidologist who did Tarot
>readings in his basement, and schilled influenza cures based on a
>concoction of green peppers and ground-up pencil erasers, I'd say yes it
>would affect the way we saw his public efforts...
>
>Imagine listening to a two-hour presentation on American politics
>without knowing that it was Chomsky you were getting it from...!!!
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
just read about the trial of galileo who maintained that copernicus
was correct - to the great displeasure of the Church. he was actually
wrong about what causes the tides on earth (so far as we understand
it today). his public efforts struck against the voice of established,
orthodox belief. if he *was* all wrong (and some may argue that a
perfectly accurate geocentric model can be built of the solar
system based on what we know today), he certainly did his
believers a disservice. if not, tant pis! he got his, don't you think?
some people believe the voice of authority unquestioningly - for
those people, it is important to know *who* is doing the talking,
because their only freedom rests in choosing their masters wisely.
others evaluate ideas and information independently. for such
people, the personal habits or public images of the messengers are
irrelevant, or at best of secondary importance compared to their data.
the great projects of human history have been performed by hordes of
followers of people who, by personal methods, arrived at strong beliefs,
and the public will not follow leaders whom it does not respect: but promulgation of valid ideas into humanity's collective awareness is
of longer lasting significance than any monument or movement, and
more valuable to us than the acceptance and adulation of the public.
-benb
Patrick D. Logan
>>Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
>>shouldn't matter should it?
I don't care whether he is recognized widely, except I do care that his
information is substantiated.
I won't shake my faith, since I am neither Jewish nor Christian nor
anti- either, but I wonder whether or not there is historical evidence of the
captivity of Israelites in Egypt? Is their evidence of the Israelites exodus
into what is now Israel?
My understanding is that those stories were formed much later during the very
real Babylonian exile, to help the captives maintain their identity until
their release.
Patrick...@ccm.jf.intel.com
Intel ProShare Teleconferencing
(503) 264-9309 FAX: (503) 263-3375
"What I envision may be impossible, but it isn't impractical."
-Wendell Berry
whittet
>
>>In article <3c8frg$h...@news.halcyon.com> Marc <rada...@halcyon.com> writes:
>>>Whether or not John Romer is a "recognized figure"
>>>shouldn't matter should it?
>
>I don't care whether he is recognized widely, except I do care that his
>information is substantiated.
>
>I won't shake my faith, since I am neither Jewish nor Christian nor
>anti- either, but I wonder whether or not there is historical evidence of the
>captivity of Israelites in Egypt? Is their evidence of the Israelites exodus
>into what is now Israel?
I think it would be reasonable to compare the account they give of their
history with what we know of the archaeology of the times and places cited.
One place to start is by comparing the place names and adjacencies with
other sources, to see if there is any consistency.
For example at the supposed time of the Exodus were there any events in
Egypt which might explain a large part of its population
deciding to leave?
For that matter, can we establish the time of the Exodus with any accuracy,
by building a timeline either forward or back until we get to some
event on which there is agreement as to its date? I believe that is
certainly possible.
I would suggest that if we take the alleged time of 430 years
spent in Egypt and the fourth year of Solomons reign
(970-931 BC, according to the Jerusalem Bible)
as 480 years after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt,
we get dates for their stay there as being between 1930 and 1450 BC,
which compares roughly with the period for the Hyskos domination
of Egypt. During all of this period the capital of Egypt was at Thebes.
See the article on Exodus posted elsewhere in this group, for the stations
of the march and some comments on the adjacencies, and the map Migdol1.jpg,
in alt.binaries.pictures, for a map.
Steve
MysticWar
and the Exodus has been dated to have occurred app. 1250 BCE (re. The
Bible as History )
Doug Weller
whi...@shore.net (whittet) wrote:
> In article <patrick_d_loga...@ccm.jf.intel.com>, patrick...@ccm.jf.intel.com (Patrick D. Logan) says:
> >
> >I won't shake my faith, since I am neither Jewish nor Christian nor
> >anti- either, but I wonder whether or not there is historical evidence of the
> >captivity of Israelites in Egypt? Is their evidence of the Israelites exodus
> >into what is now Israel?
Romer's book Testament points out:
1. The story of Moses in the basket is a well known one, and is told
for instance of King Sargon who in 2500 BC founded an empire based
on southern Mesopotamia.
2. Most of the plagues reflect the reality of life in Egypt.
3. There is no written evidence outside the Bible of the Exodus; the
effects of 600 000 people leaving Egypt, with the resultant labour
shortages, food surpluses, etc. should have left a trace in at least
Egyptian written records.
4. The dates are inconsistent.
5. No evidence at all in the Sinai desert, which preservers traces of
5000 year old mine workers' villages.
Doug
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whittet
whatcha got.
I like that you put "captivity" in quotes, I would also disagree that the
Israelites were "captive" in Egypt.I think they were just political factions
a bit disgruntled by being out of power, none the less, I have some reason
to think that, do you?
I took my dates from the Jerusalem Bible, and I believe
explained, that I checked them against the historical record. One good
correlation is the plague outbreak amongst the Phillistines,
that led to the Greek Dark Ages. Another is the Hyskos occupation of
Egypt. You might find a check of the king list dates against the capitals
of the various Egyptian Dynasties informative.
As to the date from Exodus, which seems to be rather particularly
expounded, why do you have reason to doubt it?
It fits rather well with the Hyskos occupation, the end of which
perhaps provides a mechanism to explain why a lot of people
would want to leave Egypt.
If you want to argue this you should be willing to work out
the statement that "it was in the 480th year after the Israelites
came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomons reign..."
1 kings 6, which correlates with the lengths of the reigns of the
kings before and after Solomon.
With your date of 1250 for Exodus, not only do we have Israel established
after the Merenptah stele, claiming it's destruction, but we have Solomon
ruling in the year 766 BC, which is an interesting anachronism
to say the least.
Let's assume the Bible got it's dates wrong, consistently wrong, let's
assume Merenptah means some other Israel. You still need to show why
your dates work better with whatever theory you have to explain the
migration of these people. Why shouldn't we just assume it is all
a ledgend or a myth? Let's not just make assertions without being
willing to make a case.
let me know what you think.
Steve
whittet
>
>In article <3ct38f$q...@shore.shore.net>,
> whi...@shore.net (whittet) wrote:
>
>> In article <patrick_d_loga...@ccm.jf.intel.com>, patrick...@ccm.jf.intel.com (Patrick D. Logan) says:
>> >
>> >I won't shake my faith, since I am neither Jewish nor Christian nor
>> >anti- either, but I wonder whether or not there is historical evidence of the
>> >captivity of Israelites in Egypt? Is their evidence of the Israelites exodus
>> >into what is now Israel?
>
>Romer's book Testament points out:
>1. The story of Moses in the basket is a well known one, and is told
>for instance of King Sargon who in 2500 BC founded an empire based
>on southern Mesopotamia.
True, also the story of Sinue, detailing the story of a high court
official of Egypt who has to flee across the sea to Midian has a
number of parallels.
>2. Most of the plagues reflect the reality of life in Egypt.
Or, as some people have postulated they could refer to a natural
catastrophe. As the papyrus which Velikowski discovered in London
relates, it sounds like possibly a combination of vulcanism and
the resultant earthtremors, of which there is some evidence in
cracked building components in a number of Egyptian structures.
>3. There is no written evidence outside the Bible of the Exodus; the
>effects of 600 000 people leaving Egypt, with the resultant labour
>shortages, food surpluses, etc. should have left a trace in at least
>Egyptian written records.
If you translate the world elef in one sense it means thousand, in
another it means clan. So is it 600,000 or 600 clans?
Well, actually there are a number of records. The problem is that you
need to need to look at them as individual reports of different
observers, at different times, in different places, recording events
at the very edge of the civilized world.
The Egyptian records do leave a trace, there is such widespread disruption
between the XII and XVIII dynasties, that the king lists are't maintained
properly, The country is in a state of virtual anarchy for more than
400 yrs, from 1800 to 1400 BC.
Take the situation with the Apiru raiding the Egyptian frontier in the
Negev. Compare the Biblical account of putting people under the ban.
Were these outlaws?, warlords?, a nomadic horde of religious fanatics?
>4. The dates are inconsistent.
Yes, if you use 1250 BC they are. Try placing the Exodus at the end of the
XVIII Dynasty, and allowing that date to float plus or minus 100 years
until you get some correlation.
>5. No evidence at all in the Sinai desert, which preservers traces of
>5000 year old mine workers' villages.
That's because the Exodus never went into the Sinai Desert, until after
reaching Elat, so they entered sporadically from the Negev, rather than
the Suez, check my list of stations from my post Exodus, and have a
look at the map I posted under Migdol1.jpg, in comp. binaries.ibm.pc.
Let me know what you think,
Steve
Doug Weller
myst...@aol.com (MysticWar) wrote:
How do you get 210 years? Bible itself says 430. The app. 1250 BCE
date is based on the comment that "the children of Israel journeyed from
Ramesses to Succoth' -- and it is assumed that Ramesses is the Delta city
of Ramesses II. Romer speculates (and he knows he is just speculating)
that there is a chance that this is simply a 'helpful' geographical
gloss by an editor to show their route and not a sure way of dating.
MysticWar
were to dwell in a foreign land was counted from the time that Isaac fled
Esau and dwelt in Paran Aram until the time of the Exodus. It also
specifically states that Israel (i.e. the Israelites) sojourned in Egypt
for 210 years from the time of Jacob and his family entering into Egypt
until the Exodus under Moses.
As for the date of circa 1250 BCE, the only reference to that that I have
read was *The Bible as History* by Werner Keller, but other sources place
Joseph's reign as second in command to Pharoah as being in the time of the
Hyksos domination of Egypt supporting this date if the Israelites did
indeed leave a mere 210 later.
whittet
>
>The Babylonian Talmud teaches that the 430 years that Abraham's descedents
>were to dwell in a foreign land was counted from the time that Isaac fled
>Esau and dwelt in Paran Aram until the time of the Exodus. It also
>specifically states that Israel (i.e. the Israelites) sojourned in Egypt
>for 210 years from the time of Jacob and his family entering into Egypt
>until the Exodus under Moses.
The Jerusalem Bible says "The time that the *sons of Israel*
had spent in *Egypt* was 430 years", but that is of course
as liable to be erroneous as everything else in that rather
excellent collection of tales.
>
>As for the date of circa 1250 BCE, the only reference to that that I have
>read was *The Bible as History* by Werner Keller, but other sources place
>Joseph's reign as second in command to Pharoah as being in the time of the
>Hyksos domination of Egypt supporting this date if the Israelites did
>indeed leave a mere 210 later.
>
>
I should probably begin by admitting I am not "a person of the book",
so I tend to view Biblical and or Talmudic accounts, as accounts.
I believe you earlier postulated that the number of Israelites leaving
Egypt was 600,000, wheras the number entering was 75. This is rather
an aggressive explosion of population even for Biblical times, wouldn't
you agree?
My interest is, having established an aproximate range of dates for
an alleged large scale migration of people, can we find any
correlation between the archaeological record and the allegation.
One interesting place to begin, is to research what activities the
people living in Egypt during that period of time were engaged in,
where did these activities take place, and are there any correlations
in place names.
What is going on at that moment of history with Egypts neighbors?
What Dynasty are we talking about? Where was it's capital, What had
it done in the way of trade, military excursions, exploration, or
cultural change that might explain a lot of people wanting to leave,
when so far as we can tell, nothing like that had ever happened before.
Were there an natural catastrophies? Do we have a record of them?
I really don't care a great deal for any one uncorraborated source,
unless you can relate it to the larger picture.
I am interested, as I said, in place names. In particular Migdol
as the modern Madig Gubal (the strait where the Red Sea splits into
the Gulf of Aquaba and the Gulf of Suez) is intriguing, as is
Baal Zephon as a place where Baal (powerful)
Zephon (Zephirs or storm clouds) live,
in the context that Nelson Glueck comments on the great winds that
come sweeping down the Gulf of Aquaba from Elat.
When you consider that people leaving Egypt from either Tel Armana
or Thebes for the Red Sea, intersect it at this point, I consider
that a possible correlation.
I also think that the description of leaving Elim for Elat is
interesting in that the first is the Egyptian port on the Red Sea,
where Hatshepset built her fleet at the beginning of the XVIII Dynasty,
and the second is the port at the head of the Gulf of Aquaba which
seems to be central to the Israelites wanderings.
let me know what you think,
Steve
Rev Dr Phil Herring
>For example at the supposed time of the Exodus were there any events in
>Egypt which might explain a large part of its population
>deciding to leave?
This is exactly what Romer does in _Testament_. His sources seem to be
quite solid (the book has more detail on them than the series, of course).
The main thrust of his argument is that _The Bible_ can't be taken as
literal truth, except in one or two rare cases. He not only follows the
historical content of the book, but also examines its own history - its
evolution from a massive collection of unrelated texts to the current
"canonical" work. This alone makes it a worthwhile experience.
I'd suggest that people see it for themselves. I thought it very reasonable.
Romer himself is an atheist, so you'll hardly see a justification for
Christian dogma...
-- Phil.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
(c) 1994 Rev. Dr. Phil Herring rev...@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au
- Church of the Sacred Dial Tone, Wollongong, Australia -
Unauthorised reproduction of this article for profit will result in
civil action. All other distribution is encouraged.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clayton Conway
: In article <3cuhqm$6...@newsbf01.news.aol.com>,
: myst...@aol.com (MysticWar) wrote:
: > The time of the Israelite "captivity" in Egypt was NOT 430 years but 210
: > and the Exodus has been dated to have occurred app. 1250 BCE (re. The
: > Bible as History )
: How do you get 210 years? Bible itself says 430. The app. 1250 BCE
: date is based on the comment that "the children of Israel journeyed from
: Ramesses to Succoth' -- and it is assumed that Ramesses is the Delta city
: of Ramesses II. Romer speculates (and he knows he is just speculating)
: that there is a chance that this is simply a 'helpful' geographical
: gloss by an editor to show their route and not a sure way of dating.
: Doug
The length of a Hebrew dynasty after Joseph was 215 years. The
length of stay in Egypt counted from Joseph was 430 years.
Manetho gives the Shepherd Kings rule to be 511 years, but about
two centuries are used in Egyptian chronology instead.
--
Respect - It's the only place to go.
Paul Farrar
...
>I won't shake my faith, since I am neither Jewish nor Christian nor
>anti- either, but I wonder whether or not there is historical evidence of the
>captivity of Israelites in Egypt? Is their evidence of the Israelites exodus
>into what is now Israel?
There is no evidence whatsoever confirming the exodus. The exodus as described is
extremely unlikely. There is debate as to whether a modified exodus scenario
can be shoehorned into the historical & archaeological constraints.
>My understanding is that those stories were formed much later during the very
>real Babylonian exile, to help the captives maintain their identity until
>their release.
There may have been pre-Babylonian traditions of Egyptian origins. Semite
groups regularly entered and left Egypt. The "books of Moses" were proabably
written in about the 500-300BCE frame.
>Patrick...@ccm.jf.intel.com
...
pdf
not an official spokesman
Daniel Cohen
> This is exactly what Romer does in _Testament_. His sources seem to
> be quite solid (the book has more detail on them than the series,
> reasonable. Romer himself is an atheist, so you'll hardly see a
> justification for Christian dogma...
>
pyramids, etc., due to modern water supply (damage, perhaps, rather than
destruction). It was by Joh Romer. During it, he mentioned quite a few
academic digs he had been on.
Also a friend who is a biblical scholar reckoned his information in
Testament was sound.
Of course, he may often put forward his view as the correct one, but I
think his views are always academically respectable, though they may not
always be the majority view.
Daniel Cohen
e-mail: D.E....@qmw.ac.uk or dco...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Herman Rubin
This is quite unlikely. The Jewish population during the Exile was not
entirely in Babylonia; there was a substantial part which went to Egypt.
Most scholars agree that the latest for most of Deuternonomy was the
time of Josiah, before 600 BCE.
I do not believe that the Exodus is in any way precise. But a major
argument for it having some direct validity is that the whole account
downgrades the Jews. They had no military hero or strongman; Moses is
not involved in military strategy or tactics. And they even had to
invent an origin for the name "Moses".
The story got distorted, and there must have been members of the tribal
group in the land at the time, but SOME part of it is "real".
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hru...@stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)
{purdue,pur-ee}!a.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Paul Farrar
>In article <3d7bef$g...@spitfire.navo.navy.mil>,
>Paul Farrar <far...@128.160.13.2> wrote:
>>In article 000B...@ccm.jf.intel.com, patrick...@ccm.jf.intel.com (Patrick D. Logan) writes:
...
>>>real Babylonian exile, to help the captives maintain their identity until
>>>their release.
>
>>There may have been pre-Babylonian traditions of Egyptian origins. Semite
>>groups regularly entered and left Egypt. The "books of Moses" were proabably
>>written in about the 500-300BCE frame.
>
>This is quite unlikely.
I'm not sure what part of the above you consider unlikely, but if it's the
part about the dates of the "Books of Moses" (BofM), I would say that this
date range qualifies as a scholarly consensus. (Leaving aside, in these
discussions, fundamentalist scholars who, of course, say Moses wrote them.)
Although they must have used older materials, the books themselves were
assembled post-exile, possibly under the supervision of Ezra (if he was
a real person). See Blenkinsopp, _The Pentateuch_. For an Ezra authorship,
see RE Friedmann, _Who Wrote the Bible_. REF is a consistant early-dater
for BofM materials, placing J, for example, in the court of the (still
historically unattested and possibly legendary) King Solomon. The exile of
the elites initially ended in the 2nd half of the 6th c, but such figures
as Ezra & Nehemiah didn't really get the constitution of the Jerusalem
temple state (a common type of political entity in the Persian empire)
rolling until the mid 5th c or so. (The biblical dating of this period is
a real mess.) The BofM were the constitutional basis and legitimating
myth of this establishment. The 300 BCE end of the range is determined by
the uncertain date of the Alexandrian translation to Greek, at which time
the BofM were complete.
> The Jewish population during the Exile was not
>entirely in Babylonia; there was a substantial part which went to Egypt.
True. And the most substantial part stayed in Judea. But these were the
non-elites who did not count to the elite exilic returnees, who, in fact,
despised and mistrusted them as "the people of the land." The colonies in
Egypt seem to have dated to even before the Babylonian conquest, many of
the members being Assyrian imperial soldiers. They seem to have survived
"in a time capsule" for some time, preserving pre-exilic features of Israelite
and Judean culture, such as the worship of Yahu's wife, the Asherah, along
with him. In any event, the construction of the Persian-era Jerusalem temple
state occurred without any input from the Egyptian refugees, being a project
of the returnee elites from Mesopotamia. The confrontation between Jeremiah
and the "idolatrous" refugees in Egypt can be seen as a legitimization of
the exclusion of the refugees to Egypt.
>Most scholars agree that the latest for most of Deuternonomy was the
>time of Josiah, before 600 BCE.
I concur that most would agree. Many do not. The claim is that the law code
core of Deuteronomy was the book of laws unveiled by Hilkiah which prompted
Josiah's religious reforms. For a major scholar who did not agree, see
Ahlstrom's _The History of Ancient Palestine_. The majority of scholars do
hold to the now-traditional Wellhausen "Documentary Hypothesis" (for example
the previously-mentioned REF. But there is also a substantial group of
"late daters" who assign pretty much all biblical literature to the 2nd temple
period. Besides the late GA Ahlstrom, see TL Thompson, NP Lemche, PR Davies,
E-A Knauf, H Weippert, ? Cryer, et al.
>
>I do not believe that the Exodus is in any way precise. But a major
>argument for it having some direct validity is that the whole account
>downgrades the Jews.
They weren't Jews yet, even in myth, except for maybe the "tribe of Judah."
No Jews before Judea.
> They had no military hero or strongman; Moses is
>not involved in military strategy or tactics.
I don't agree with this argument. I don't think it downgrades the
hypothetical "exodusers" in any way to downgrade their military prowess.
The whole point is that God will provide, if they fulfil their part of the
covenant. This is 2nd temple Judaism projected back into the mythical
prehistory of the nation.
> And they even had to
>invent an origin for the name "Moses".
Yes. It seems to be the tail end of an Egyptian theophoric (like Thutmoses).
Another odd "un-name" is David.
>
>The story got distorted, and there must have been members of the tribal
>group in the land at the time, but SOME part of it is "real".
I personally think (Who cares, right?) that there is some history behind the
Moses story, and that it is pre-exile. But who can show anything at this point?
The BofM exodus, in its present form is post-exilic, and we have no evidence
of its existance before 300BCE.
>...
Paul Farrar
not an official spokesman
David Kaufmann
You might check the work of Kenneth Kitchen, perhaps the leading
Egyptologist (among other scholars). The circumstantial evidence for
the historicity of the Exodus is rather substantial. The biggest
question is the date.
Recent scholarship also points to the early composition of the five
books of Moses. See, fo rinstance, _Ancient Israelite Literature in
its Cultural Context_ and
_Law and Theology in Deuteronomy_ for a comparative literature and
internal analysis approach (respectively) that demonstrate that
Genesis through Deuteronomy were written at the time of the Exodus
itself (sometime between 1200-1400 bce). Kitchen also has good
references.
--
David Kaufmann INTERNET: kauf...@tcs.tulane.edu
Don Collett
passage of the Great Pyramid via the "inch to a year scale" from the benchmark
date 2141 BC for the Exodus is 1453 BC.
--dlc
---
_____________________________________________
Don Collett AT&T Tridom (404-514-3516)
email: d...@eng.tridom.com, attmail!tridom!dlc
840 Franklin Court, Marrietta, Georgia 30067
Opinions stated are my own and have nothing
to do with AT&T or AT&T Tridom.