Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it did?
Martin Phipps
out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
did? I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know? The
fact that acheologists have found Troy doesn't really prove that these
people existed anymore than the presence of the Titanic at the bottom
of the Atlantic proves that Jack and Rose from James Cameron's movie
actually existed. People are going to go to see (or alternatively
study at school) the story at the cinema and think it really happened
the way Homer described but, ultimately, do we even have any physical
evidence pointing to the actual existance of the Trojan horse? Or is
all we have are ruins of a city exactly where we would have expected
Troy to be?
Martin
grapheus
As it is formulated, one has to say NO to your question... Homer was
not an historian, but a poet!..
But it is also certain that there is a KERNEL OF HISTORICAL TRUTH in
the myth. Which one ? is the most interesting question...
To answer it, I warmly recommend the book (alas in French!) "Les
Proto-Ioniens : Histoire d'un peuple oublié" by J. Faucounau, that one
may find in any e-bookshop selling French books, e.g.
<http://www.alapage.com> or <http://www.amazon.fr>
Regards
grapheus
grapheus
POST-SCRIPTUM
"In Search of the Trojan War" by Michael Wood is also pretty good, but
does'n't answer the main problems, as the J.F.'s book does.
grapheus
Eric Stevens
Phipps) wrote:
>This might be a popular question with a movie on the subject coming
>out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
>did?
There is always the Dares and Dictys versions of the story. See
http://79.1911encyclopedia.org/D/DI/DICTYS_CRETENSIS.htm
A problem is that we the origins of neither the Homer nor the Dares
versions so don't know to what extent they are independent.
>I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
>these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know? The
>fact that acheologists have found Troy ...
We can't be sure of that. Once it was considered highly doubtful but
more recently its acceptance has become hallowed by long use.
> ... doesn't really prove that these
>people existed anymore than the presence of the Titanic at the bottom
>of the Atlantic proves that Jack and Rose from James Cameron's movie
>actually existed. People are going to go to see (or alternatively
>study at school) the story at the cinema and think it really happened
>the way Homer described but, ultimately, do we even have any physical
>evidence pointing to the actual existance of the Trojan horse? Or is
>all we have are ruins of a city exactly where we would have expected
>Troy to be?
Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
answer. :-)
But its a serious question.
Eric Stevens
Neville Lindsay
"Martin Phipps" <phipps...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:df8f4cb4.03101...@posting.google.com...
First, the Iliad does not describe the "Trojan War". It covers a few weeks
only of an apparent repeat raid on Troy, and does not include either its
destruction or any ten years siege. The context is several years of
piratical raids in the eastern Aegean. Much of our knowledge of the alleged
war comes from pottery and commentary/allusions from the last 500 years
BCE.
The material in the Iliad is Bardic, and covers (from an archaeological and
legendary point of view) a span of about 600 years - 14-8 Centuries BCE. It
was written down late 8th Century BCE.
Ajax (Aias) for example predated the 'war' (in legend anyway) but was still
woven into the Bardic tale, and a lot of the artefacts and social system
seems to be from 'Homer's' time, ie 8th C. So we have no independent audit
on it. It is a bit like the New Testament - written later (in this case a
lot later, not just two to four generations), heavily edited and
interpolated, about legendary characters, and without contemporary evidence.
Was there an Achilles/Achilleus? Was there a Jesus/Yeshua/Iesous? We don't
know other than through religious/quasi-religious tracts written long after
the events.
NL
Catherine Hampton
>This might be a popular question with a movie on the subject coming
>out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
>did? I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
>these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know?
Those aren't the only two choices. There is at very minimum another choice --
that Achilles and Odysseus are "fictional" characters made up by someone prior
to Homer. Homer wasn't the first or only poet among the Greeks; he was just
the one whose poetry impressed people sufficiently that they maintained a
400-year oral tradition and then wrote it down. Poets and storytellers have
always borrowed stories from one another, retold stories they heard somewhere
else, completely ignoring modern ideas of copyright infringement and
plagiarism.
I wouldn't use the term "fictional" to describe anything Homer wrote,
however. The literary form we call fiction -- stories at least some of whose
details are false, whose readers *know* that they are false, told to
illustrate some higher principle or truth -- did not exist in 800 B.C. as far
as I know. That doesn't mean people didn't tell false stories at that time,
of course, but prior to the Renaissance in Europe storytellers there were
expected to pretend that the literal details of their stories were true, even
if none of their listeners/readers was fooled.
I'm less familiar with early non-European literature, but I don't believe that
a tradition of what we call "fiction" developed during the bronze age
anywhere.
Sorry -- literature major flashback. I'll get off my soapbox now and let the
archaeologists talk. ;>
--
Catherine Hampton <ar...@spambouncer.org>
Home Page * <http://www.devsite.org/>
The SpamBouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
Neville Lindsay
"Catherine Hampton" <spam...@spambouncer.org> wrote in message
news:6pnuov41b8k2lguan...@4ax.com...
> On 16 Oct 2003 00:54:02 -0700, phipps...@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps)
wrote:
>
> >This might be a popular question with a movie on the subject coming
> >out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
> >did? I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
> >these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know?
>
> Those aren't the only two choices. There is at very minimum another
choice --
> that Achilles and Odysseus are "fictional" characters made up by someone
prior
> to Homer. Homer wasn't the first or only poet among the Greeks; he was
just
> the one whose poetry impressed people sufficiently that they maintained a
> 400-year oral tradition and then wrote it down.
Rather 'Homer' was at the end of the tradition - his version was the best
around when the Greeks pinched the Phoenician alphabet in the 8th C BCE and
it _could_ be written down.
>Poets and storytellers have
> always borrowed stories from one another, retold stories they heard
somewhere
> else, completely ignoring modern ideas of copyright infringement and
> plagiarism.
>
> I wouldn't use the term "fictional" to describe anything Homer wrote,
> however. The literary form we call fiction -- stories at least some of
whose
> details are false, whose readers *know* that they are false, told to
> illustrate some higher principle or truth -- did not exist in 800 B.C. as
far
> as I know. That doesn't mean people didn't tell false stories at that
time,
> of course, but prior to the Renaissance in Europe storytellers there were
> expected to pretend that the literal details of their stories were true,
even
> if none of their listeners/readers was fooled.
In days of no TV (what? surely that couldn't be!) the main entertaiment was
the rhapsodes. They all had their own versions, relying on a lot of stock
phrases (two of which made a scannable line), and thwanging their lutes,
sang extempore, pulling from their stock of phrases the ones which they
wanted to use, making it up on the spot - same as musicians do in performing
improvisations - it is only heard once. Next time it is different, and just
as well, because you do get sick of TV reruns, and they would have got sick
of identical epics too, even if the rhapsodes could, which they didn't.
This is exemplified by the later poets - look at *Iphigeneia in Aulis* and
*Iphigeneia in Taurus*. A basic theme of Poor little old Iph copping it, but
in quite different ways. The audience knew the basic theme, and came along
not to see a replay, but to see what spin the playwright put on this latest
performance.
So we can be quite sure that there was no standard Iliad (there were so many
_written_ variations so widely different by the 6th C BCE that Peisistratus
Tyrant of Athens got scholars together to produce a common version. Even
then it was fudged - as Athens was at war with Megara over the island of
Salamis, he had them write it into the Iliad as part of Athens. It was quite
a joke in Athens at the time. And since then, the variations re-flourished
(someone mentions a couple of thousand variants three hundred years later)
Looking at this chequered history, what is in the present Iliad is not
likely to resemble what Homer sang too much at all (the exception was the
'catalogue of the ships' which was a tour de force to get it right - and
angry people might just chop you if you insulted their city's
sensibilities), and what Homer sang was just one of a myriad versions which
had mutated over the previous six centuries from the ever-broadening pool of
bardic material.
The question was did it happen that way, and was Achilleus a real person? I
suppose there were plenty of warbands pirating around, and also plenty of
Achilleus's around, just as there were plenty of Jesuses around a millennium
later. Just which one did you have in mind? The one who resembled what
happened in the Iliad/NT, or just any only one will do. If it was the one in
the Iliad/NT, the answer is that for both persons, a persona has been
fabricated, added to, polished, edited, repolished, vandalised, idolised and
so on for several millenniums, so we really don't know what these eponymous
originals really were like. Same goes for Arthur - look what happened to a
rough, bestial warband leader living in a dirty palisaded camp with a lot of
cutthroat compatriots in just over half a millennium. What will Elvis be
like in even a hundred years - he has already risen from the dead, with
sightings every day, after just three decades.
NL
grapheus
>
> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
> answer. :-)
>
> But its a serious question.
Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located the
legendary city there 2)-because ARCHAEOLOGY has confirmed the
existence of a city corresponding to the Homeric description in THAT
location. 3)- because the different cities Troy I to Troy IX
correspond pretty well to what the Proto-Ionian Theory predicted
concerning the Trojan History.
grapheus
Eric Stevens
>Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<egutovo0k7g6mmic6...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
>> answer. :-)
>>
>> But its a serious question.
>
>Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located the
>legendary city there
What tradition?
> 2)-because ARCHAEOLOGY has confirmed the
>existence of a city corresponding to the Homeric description in THAT
>location.
It has confirmed the existence of a stack of towns and cities, some of
which conceivably might fit the Homeric description.
>3)- because the different cities Troy I to Troy IX
>correspond pretty well to what the Proto-Ionian Theory predicted
>concerning the Trojan History.
This is the most important point as far as you are concerned.
Unfortunately I can't read french worth a damn so would you mind
telling me why or how the Proto-Ionian Theory demonstrates this
particular site to be Troy? For that matter, how does Troy fit into
the Proto-Ionian theory in the first place?
Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
Good questions. You may look up my answers in
http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer2.htm
In my opinion, there have been two bards. The bard of the Iliad
may have come from the Peloponnese and have flourished in the time
of the First Messenian War, while the bard of the Odyssey was
Melegistes of Smyrna, who flourished on the eve of the Second
Messenian War, and feared that this war and the rising Anatolian
kings might tear apart Greece. His pen name Homer was, I believe,
a pun: Hermos (river, then mouthing at Smyrna), Hermaes (Homer's
alter ego), homoios (equal, similar, Odyssey matching Iliad),
homaereo (I unite, Homer's wish of uniting Greece), Homaeros
(Homer's full name). In the Odyssey he combined the poems of at
least twelve bards. A biologist of the Free University of Mexico
applied a computer program destined for analysing DNA to the
Odyssey and found out that there must have been at least a dozen
authors. I believe that there was one single author, who, however,
incorporated the poems of other bards. Hermes, Homer's alter ego,
was among other things the god of thieves. Next time more on the
plot of the Odyssey, which is as simple as effective.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
grapheus
> On 17 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0700, grap...@www.com (grapheus) wrote:
>
> >Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<egutovo0k7g6mmic6...@4ax.com>...
> >>
> >> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
> >> answer. :-)
> >>
> >> But its a serious question.
> >
> >Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located the
> >legendary city there
>
> What tradition?
The most ancient one, still alive during Alexander's times. See le
Greek legends about Tros, Ilos, Kallirhoè, etc.
>
> > 2)-because ARCHAEOLOGY has confirmed the
> >existence of a city corresponding to the Homeric description in THAT
> >location.
>
> It has confirmed the existence of a stack of towns and cities, some of
> which conceivably might fit the Homeric description.
>
More than that !..
> >3)- because the different cities Troy I to Troy IX
> >correspond pretty well to what the Proto-Ionian Theory predicted
> >concerning the Trojan History.
>
> This is the most important point as far as you are concerned.
>
> Unfortunately I can't read french worth a damn so would you mind
> telling me why or how the Proto-Ionian Theory demonstrates this
> particular site to be Troy? For that matter, how does Troy fit into
> the Proto-Ionian theory in the first place?
The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
they settled in the Cyclades, then into Euboea and Attica. This
history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
From Troy IV on, the Anatolians took back the city, which became a
"mixed city", with a "mixed population", half-Luvian, half-Greek,
sometimes allied to Hittites, sometimes not...
The "Trojan War" is an attempt of the Mycenaean Greeks to recover this
old "Greek port of call". It happened at the end of Troy VI, which is
the "Homeric city".
Regards
grapheus
Michael Kuettner
"Martin Phipps" <phipps...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:df8f4cb4.03101...@posting.google.com...
> This might be a popular question with a movie on the subject coming
> out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
> did? I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
> these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know?
The answer is yes and no ;-)
I'd suggest John V. Luce : Homer and the heroic age.
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Eric Stevens
>Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<go8vovgn9hl5dllrr...@4ax.com>...
>> On 17 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0700, grap...@www.com (grapheus) wrote:
>>
>> >Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<egutovo0k7g6mmic6...@4ax.com>...
>> >>
>> >> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
>> >> answer. :-)
>> >>
>> >> But its a serious question.
>> >
>> >Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located the
>> >legendary city there
>>
>> What tradition?
>
>The most ancient one, still alive during Alexander's times. See le
>Greek legends about Tros, Ilos, Kallirhoè, etc.
At the risk of spreading this discussion out of control, I would like
to mention that it was Alexander who gave the name of 'Egypt' to the
country which then (and now) was known to its inhabitants as 'Misr'.
Egypt was already embedded in Homer at that date. Which country was it
that Homer had in mind when he spoke of Egypt?
I don't disagree with anything much of that. That they established a
city at Hissarlik is also beyond dispute. My only real question is
what is there that makes this particular city the Troy of the legend?
Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
> Good questions. You may look up my answers in
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer2.htm
>
> In my opinion, there have been two bards. The bard of the Iliad
> may have come from the Peloponnese and have flourished in the time
> of the First Messenian War, while the bard of the Odyssey was
> Melegistes of Smyrna, who flourished on the eve of the Second
> Messenian War, and feared that this war and the rising Anatolian
> kings might tear apart Greece. His pen name Homer was, I believe,
> a pun: Hermos (river, then mouthing at Smyrna), Hermaes (Homer's
> alter ego), homoios (equal, similar, Odyssey matching Iliad),
> homaereo (I unite, Homer's wish of uniting Greece), Homaeros
> (Homer's full name). In the Odyssey he combined the poems of at
> least twelve bards. A biologist of the Free University of Mexico
> applied a computer program destined for analysing DNA to the
> Odyssey and found out that there must have been at least a dozen
> authors. I believe that there was one single author, who, however,
> incorporated the poems of other bards. Hermes, Homer's alter ego,
> was among other things the god of thieves. Next time more on the
> plot of the Odyssey, which is as simple as effective.
Melegistes alias Homer, fearing a new war on the Peloponnese
and the rise of powerful Anatolian kings, and a possible
tearing apart of the Greek world, summoned up the heroic time
of the Trojan War. Has there been such a war? Have there been
several Trojan Wars? Or was it just a legend? Whatever the
truth about Troy was: the Greeks of Homer's time and readers
of the Iliad believed in the Trojan War, and this was all that
really mattered for Homer. Now for the plot of his Odyssey.
When I look through all the symbols, jokes and intricacies
I find these events. The Achaeans besiege Troy for ten years,
without beeing able of bringing down the citadel of golden
towers, which once was the admiration of the world (Iliad).
Then shrewd Odysseus - "if there ever was such a man" (!)
Homer, Odyssey - comes up with a ruse. The bow of his ship
is decorated with a wodden stallion. A bad storm sweeps over
the Dardanelles. On the next morning, the guardians of the
Trojan harbor see an Achaean ship drifting helplessly along
the Aegean shoreline, hanged with shrubs, mast broken, sail
missing. Lo and behold: there is the famous wooden stallion!
Odysseus and his men must have drowned in the horrible storm!
They fetch the ship and haul it into their harbor. Hoewever,
Odysseus and his men are well alive, hidden in specially
fabricated wooden cases inside the ship. Upon arriving in
the Trojan harbor, they leave their hidings and take the
Trojan guardians by surprise. Urgent signals for help are
transmittet to the citadel, some ten kilometers away. The
Trojan army speeds to the harbor, fearing the Achaean army
there. But no, the Achaeans hide near the citadel, and now,
as the Trojan army left, they storm the town and burn it down.
To be continued.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
grapheus
> On 17 Oct 2003 08:02:03 -0700, grap...@www.com (grapheus) wrote:
>
> >Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<go8vovgn9hl5dllrr...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 17 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0700, grap...@www.com (grapheus) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message news:<egutovo0k7g6mmic6...@4ax.com>...
> >> >>
> >> >> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik? Don't
> >> >> answer. :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> But its a serious question.
> >> >
> >> >Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located the
> >> >legendary city there
> >>
> >> What tradition?
> >
> >The most ancient one, still alive during Alexander's times. See le
> >Greek legends about Tros, Ilos, Kallirhoè, etc.
>
> At the risk of spreading this discussion out of control, I would like
> to mention that it was Alexander who gave the name of 'Egypt' to the
> country which then (and now) was known to its inhabitants as 'Misr'.
> Egypt was already embedded in Homer at that date. Which country was it
> that Homer had in mind when he spoke of Egypt?
The country known as "Misr" !... There have been Greeks "ports of
call" on the Egyptian coast since c.2500BC : "Proto-Ionian" first,
then "Minoan/Mycenaean". Contrary to what is generally said (that
"Egypt" would be a deformation of an Old Egyptian name) there is a
good probability that the name is Proto-Indoeuropean : *Aig-uptos :
"what is beyond the Sea". This was the name used by the Greeks and
Minoans to designate the country. Alexander just used it !... The
same as happened with some Pharaohs' names, known first by the
Proto-Ionians and later collected by Manethon, like "Phios" : "the one
you can trust"... ( A purely Greek name !)...
Diverse reasons : 1)- There is no other one suitable old city near the
Bosphorus 2)- The description of Troy VI correspond to the
description of the city in the Homeric poems. 3)- The coincidences of
the names in the Hittite texts : a city of Troy in the Wilusa-country
, etc.
grapheus
o8TY
news:337ae51f.03101...@posting.google.com...
Rubbish, as the Ionians were originally Pelasgians that adopted the name of
their leader Ion, so any mention of Proto-Ionians is merely a reference to
the Pelasgians. The Pelasgian civilisation was entirely Aegean and extends
back much further than 3000 BC, as evidenced by the red and white
spiral/concentric-circles motif.
> From Troy IV on, the Anatolians took back the city, which became a
> "mixed city", with a "mixed population", half-Luvian, half-Greek,
> sometimes allied to Hittites, sometimes not...
Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas
during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the Uksos.
> The "Trojan War" is an attempt of the Mycenaean Greeks to recover this
> old "Greek port of call". It happened at the end of Troy VI, which is
> the "Homeric city".
>
The Trojan War, as sung by Homer, was little more than a civil war fought
between Pelasgo-Arkadians of Anatolia (ie the descendents of Arkadians
Dardanos, Hermes, Azan and Telephos, and of Pelasgians Hippothous and
Pulaios, and Sarpedon) and those of the Greek mainland. Understand this and
you will begin to understand the rest of Greek history to the end of the
first millenium BC.
> Regards
> grapheus
Eric Stevens
That makes better sense than the explnation which is usually trotted
out. However, what was the *Aig-uptos" referred to by Homer? was it
necessarily Al Misr?
Eric Stevens
grapheus
Yes, several times !... See Od. 4, 83, 127, etc. And it was clearly
designing Egypt...
grapheus
grapheus
Well, you are as naïve as Aggie !... So, you believe in this funny
story of a "people changing his name" to "follow the leader" ?....
When do you predict the Americans to be called the "Bushmen" ?...
> > From Troy IV on, the Anatolians took back the city, which became a
> > "mixed city", with a "mixed population", half-Luvian, half-Greek,
> > sometimes allied to Hittites, sometimes not...
>
> Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas
> during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the Uksos.
RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
!...
grapheus
Eric Stevens
>> That makes better sense than the explnation which is usually trotted
>> out. However, what was the *Aig-uptos" referred to by Homer? was it
>> necessarily Al Misr?
>
>Yes, several times !... See Od. 4, 83, 127, etc. And it was clearly
>designing Egypt...
Well, it was called 'Egypt' and it was one of the stops on what seems
to have been a trip around the Mediterranean. Makes sense.
Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
> > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
The Achaeans return home. Odysseues and his men stay some more
time in the Troas. Odysseus warns his men: Do never attack a
Crimean fleet! However, tempted by gold, Odysseus's men attack
a forbidden fleet (oxen of Helios) and get utterly defeated.
Odysseus is forced to stay another ten years in the Troas. When
he finally sails home, he gets into a gale and has to return to
the Trojan beach. Here he sleeps. In that night he dreams a lot.
In his dreams he always returns to Troy - however, a Troy in
disguise, and a Troy blended with other places. One-eyed
Polyphem, who resembles more a wooded mountain than a man who
eats bread symbolizes the hill of Troy, his one eye the citadel,
his cave the Trojan harbor, his sheep and goats the many ships
that wait in the Trojan harbor for favorable winds allowing
them to pass the perilous Dardanelles, and the milk they give
are the fees the ship owners have to pay for to stay in the
Trojan harbor, and for the help they get from the skilled
Trojan pilots.
o8TY
You are the one who is deluded. With the one hand you say the Greeks made up
their entire history and then with the other hand you use their stories to
prop up your fiction about the Proto-Ionians. Get real, the only one being
fooled here is yourself.
> > > From Troy IV on, the Anatolians took back the city, which became a
> > > "mixed city", with a "mixed population", half-Luvian, half-Greek,
> > > sometimes allied to Hittites, sometimes not...
> >
> > Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black
Seas
> > during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the
Uksos.
>
> RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
> proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
> !...
>
Rubbish, the ethnicity of the Uksos (not Hycksos) has not been proven
whatsoever, not by you, your phantom mentor or by anyone else that has
published in the last century or two. The red and white bull frescos at
Avaris are of Pelasgian design, painted by the same Pelasgian tribes that
built the Kreten palaces during the second millenium wherein the same red
and white bulls were painted in fresco.
Wake up mate your theory is going down the gurgler.
> grapheus
Italo
> grapheus wrote:
>
>> o8ty wrote:
>>>Rubbish, as the Ionians were originally Pelasgians that adopted the name
>
> of
>
>>>their leader Ion,
>>
>>Well, you are as naïve as Aggie !... So, you believe in this funny
>>story of a "people changing his name" to "follow the leader" ?....
>>When do you predict the Americans to be called the "Bushmen" ?...
>>
>
>
> You are the one who is deluded. With the one hand you say the Greeks made up
> their entire history and then with the other hand you use their stories to
> prop up your fiction about the Proto-Ionians. Get real, the only one being
> fooled here is yourself.
Since such eponyms almost always represent the whole tribe instead of an
individual, the story that these pelasgians came to be led by an
foreigner _does_ sound as an invention to explain the apparent
contradicting tradition that the Ionians were both Pelasgian _and_ from
the branch of Hellen.
But AFAIK it's only since Herodotus mistook Tyrsenian for Pelasgian,
that the latter was generally assumed to be non-Greek.
>
Italo
snip
>>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
>>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
>>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
>>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
>>>they settled in the Cyclades
What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
>>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
>>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
>>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
snip
>>Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas
>>during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the Uksos.
>
>
> RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
> proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
> !...
The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
-the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
Italo
snip
> The material in the Iliad is Bardic, and covers (from an archaeological and
> legendary point of view) a span of about 600 years - 14-8 Centuries BCE. It
> was written down late 8th Century BCE.
> Ajax (Aias) for example predated the 'war' (in legend anyway) but was still
> woven into the Bardic tale,
Why would 'Ajax' be dated earlier as the rest?
grapheus
SURPRISING !.. One wonders why all archaeologists call these frescos "Minoan" !!!!
grapheus
Neville Lindsay
"Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
news:bn12ub$ijq$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
> Neville Lindsay wrote:
>
> snip
> > The material in the Iliad is Bardic, and covers (from an archaeological
and
> > legendary point of view) a span of about 600 years - 14-8 Centuries BCE.
It
> > was written down late 8th Century BCE.
>
> > Ajax (Aias) for example predated the 'war' (in legend anyway) but was
still
> > woven into the Bardic tale,
>
> Why would 'Ajax' be dated earlier as the rest?
Because he appears in earlier context in other legendary fragments.
NL
Chris Camfield
that Hissarlik was Troy. But as others have pointed out, the Greeks maintained
the tradition that it was the site - considering there were later cities on the
site, and the tradition of sending Attic(?) women there to propitiate an
impropriety on the part of the Achaeans, which lasted for hundreds of years.
The circumstantial evidence continues to mount. For instance, recent drilling
seems to indicate that the shoreline was very different at the time, which would
have put the site much nearer the coast.
Franz Gnaedinger
A brief interpretation of Homer's Odyssey: Homer's name /
Trojan Horse / Oxen of Helios and Polyphem / new: Odysseus
in Scherie (at the end)
In his last dream, Odysseus reaches lovely Scherie, which means
'market place' in Phoenician. Now Scherie is Troy in a former
time (Eberhard Zangger). Odysseus is warmly welcomed, and a
feast is given in his honor. A blind bard and seer by the name
of Demodocus (teacher of people) sings a ballad on the sacking
of Troy. Everybody is pleased to hear the famous ballad. But
the unfortunates do not know that Troy is their own beloved
Scherie in a future time! Only Odysseus understands the song,
he recognizes what a lovely place he destroyed, or will destroy
in the time perspective of Demodocus and all the other Scherians,
and he weeps. Thus, he finally finds relief. - Read how Odysseus
reaches the shore of lovely Scherie, read it as a time travel,
and you will see what a powerful poet Homer was.
grapheus
> grapheus wrote:
>
> snip
> >>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
> >>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
> >>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
>
>
>
> >>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
> >>>they settled in the Cyclades
>
> What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
The demonstration is pretty difficult to explain in a few lines. If
you can read French, I advise you to read the book "Les Proto-Ioniens
: Histoire d'un peuple oublié" by J. Faucounau (You may find it for
instance at <http://www.alapage.com> or <http://www.amazon.fr> ).
If you cannot, here is a short summary of this demonstration :
a)- Greeks are "immigrants from the North" into Greece.
b)- There arrived in several "Greek Waves".
c)- On the Mainland, "True Greeks" did'n't arrive before c.1800 BC,
but at Troy and in the Cycladic islands, they arrrived c. 2900 BC.
Moreover, these first Greeks - obviously seamen - spoke "proto-Ionic".
c)- Then , the "First Greek Wave" was "Proto-Ionian" and came by sea.
On the Mainland, they settled in Euboea, Attica and in a few points on
the Peloponese Coast.
>
> >>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
> >>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
> >>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
>
>
>
> snip
> >>Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas
> >>during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the Uksos.
> >
> >
> > RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
> > proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
> > !...
>
> The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
> eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
> -the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
>
> So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
>
> Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
> style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
They are universally considered as "Minoan". In the frame of the
Proto-Ionian Theory, one has to distinguish the successive following
ethnies :
a)- "Proto-Greeks"
b)-"Proto-Ionians" (= "True Greeks")
c)- "Minoans" (probably of the same ethnos as the "Proto-Greeks")
d)- "Achaeans/Mycenaeans"
e)- "Dorians"
Historically (and schematically) (a) and (b) were dominant during the
Early Bronze Age , (c) during the Middle Bronze Age, (d) during the
Late Bronze Age , (e) around and after 1200 BC.
The existence of the Proto-Ionians in the Aegean area since c.3000 BC
has led to the birth of more or less "mixed populations", generally
known as "Pelasgians".
Regards
grapheus
Italo
> "Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:bn12ub$ijq$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
>
>>Neville Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>The material in the Iliad is Bardic, and covers (from an archaeological
>
> and
>
>>>legendary point of view) a span of about 600 years - 14-8 Centuries BCE.
>
> It
>
>>>was written down late 8th Century BCE.
>>
>>>Ajax (Aias) for example predated the 'war' (in legend anyway) but was
>
> still
>
>>>woven into the Bardic tale,
>>
>>Why would 'Ajax' be dated earlier as the rest?
>
>
> Because he appears in earlier context in other legendary fragments.
Do you mean Aiakos of Aigina, Ajax' grandfather?
o8TY
> "o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3f93d...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> > "grapheus" <grap...@www.com> wrote in message
> > news:337ae51f.03101...@posting.google.com...
> > > "o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<3f915...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
> > > > "grapheus" <grap...@www.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:337ae51f.03101...@posting.google.com...
> > > > > Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:<go8vovgn9hl5dllrr...@4ax.com>...
> > > > > > On 17 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0700, grap...@www.com (grapheus)
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Eric Stevens <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
> > news:<egutovo0k7g6mmic6...@4ax.com>...
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Why should we exactly expect Troy to be sited at Hissarlik?
Don't
> > > > > > >> answer. :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> But its a serious question.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Very simple !... Because 1)-the TRADITION has always located
the
> > > > > > >legendary city there
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What tradition?
> > > > >
> > > > > The most ancient one, still alive during Alexander's times. See le
Surprise yourself - go and trace the descent of each of the three kings
called Minos.
o8TY
> o8TY wrote:
>
> > grapheus wrote:
> >
> >> o8ty wrote:
>
>
> >>>Rubbish, as the Ionians were originally Pelasgians that adopted the
name
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>their leader Ion,
> >>
> >>Well, you are as naïve as Aggie !... So, you believe in this funny
> >>story of a "people changing his name" to "follow the leader" ?....
> >>When do you predict the Americans to be called the "Bushmen" ?...
> >>
> >
> >
> > You are the one who is deluded. With the one hand you say the Greeks
made up
> > their entire history and then with the other hand you use their stories
to
> > prop up your fiction about the Proto-Ionians. Get real, the only one
being
> > fooled here is yourself.
>
> Since such eponyms almost always represent the whole tribe instead of an
> individual, the story that these pelasgians came to be led by an
> foreigner _does_ sound as an invention to explain the apparent
> contradicting tradition that the Ionians were both Pelasgian _and_ from
> the branch of Hellen.
>
There is no contradiction, since Ion was descended from a branch of Hellen
who was himself of Pelasgian stock, ie Pelasgians in Thessaly and Epiros
c.1600 BC. What needs to be understood is that the second Millenium BC
empire that controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas, while
usually called Mukenaian nowadays, was in fact a Pelasgian empire. Simply
plot the myths of Herakles on a map and you will realise the extent of this
empire.
With the Dorian invasion, the Aigelios Pelasgoi and the Pelasgoi under
Nestor were expelled from the Peloponnese, whereupon both groups went to
their fellow Pelasgians at Athens to arrange transport to the south west
coast of Asia Minos.
Italo
> Italo <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message news:<bn12co$f6n$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>...
>
>>grapheus wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
>>>>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
>>>>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
>>>>>they settled in the Cyclades
>>
>>What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
>
>
> The demonstration is pretty difficult to explain in a few lines. If
> you can read French, I advise you to read the book "Les Proto-Ioniens
> : Histoire d'un peuple oublié" by J. Faucounau (You may find it for
> instance at <http://www.alapage.com> or <http://www.amazon.fr> ).
> If you cannot, here is a short summary of this demonstration :
> a)- Greeks are "immigrants from the North" into Greece.
> b)- There arrived in several "Greek Waves".
> c)- On the Mainland, "True Greeks" did'n't arrive before c.1800 BC,
> but at Troy and in the Cycladic islands, they arrrived c. 2900 BC.
> Moreover, these first Greeks - obviously seamen - spoke "proto-Ionic".
> c)- Then , the "First Greek Wave" was "Proto-Ionian" and came by sea.
> On the Mainland, they settled in Euboea, Attica and in a few points on
> the Peloponese Coast.
There are some similarities between the material cultures of early Troy
and that of the Cyclades. Now what I meant was: is there archeological
dated evidence that suggests this was present at Troy before it appears
at the Cycladic islands?
>
>>>>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
>>>>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
>>>>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
>>
>>
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>>Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black Seas
>>>>during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the Uksos.
>>>
>>>
>>>RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
>>>proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
>>>!...
>>
>>The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
>>eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
>>-the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
>>
>>So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
>>
>>Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
>>style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
>
>
> They are universally considered as "Minoan".
If any contemporary paintings would survive in the Argolis, they'd look
"Minoan" too. That the style of the LH III "Mycenaean" examples is only
introduced after the fall of Knossos, like Linear-B, seems unlikely.
> In the frame of the
> Proto-Ionian Theory, one has to distinguish the successive following
> ethnies :
No "Pre-Greek"?
> a)- "Proto-Greeks"
> b)-"Proto-Ionians" (= "True Greeks")
> c)- "Minoans" (probably of the same ethnos as the "Proto-Greeks")
It's the Dardanians and their cult on Samothrace that are related to the
ancient Curetes/Corybantes and Dactyls. I do _not_ think that the
_Dardanians_ were (proto-)Greek or Pelasgian. I _do_ think that the
_Teucrians_ (some link to Crete also) were Pelasgian-Greek
("proto-Ionian", if you insist).
B.T.W., the Linear-A find from Mikro-Vouni, Samothrace, is also suggestive.
> d)- "Achaeans/Mycenaeans"
> e)- "Dorians"
>
> Historically (and schematically) (a) and (b) were dominant during the
> Early Bronze Age ,
> (c) during the Middle Bronze Age,
Unlike the legendary tradition, which has the minoic dynasty end only at
the beginning of the 13th c. BC.
> (d) during the
> Late Bronze Age , (e) around and after 1200 BC.
>
> The existence of the Proto-Ionians in the Aegean area since c.3000 BC
> has led to the birth of more or less "mixed populations", generally
> known as "Pelasgians".
>
> Regards
> grapheus
Maybe linear-B represents the language of the Achaioi, while the Danaoi
could belong to the proto-Ionian element.
As also the pelasgian Athenians or Teucrians(Athens, Salamis-->Cyprus,
Crete, Troy-->Antandros and Gergis).
The Pelasgians of Herodotus 1.57, like the Lemnians, are Teucrians who
adopted the language of the Dardanians (with whom the Teucrians mixed).
Hence the confusion.
o8TY
>
> snip
> >>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
> >>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
> >>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
>
> >>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
> >>>they settled in the Cyclades
>
> What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
>
The Skuthians claimed to be descended from the Daktulian Herakles after he
had chased the golden hind into the far north, from which land he brought
the silver birch ("wild-olive" sic) to the Peloponnese.
> >>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
> >>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
> >>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
>
> snip
> >>Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black
Seas
> >>during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the
Uksos.
> >
> >
> > RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
> > proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
> > !...
>
> The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
> eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
> -the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
>
> So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
>
Exactly right.
> Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
> style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
>
Some say yes, some say no, but when viewed side by side, they are virtually
identical. But there is also the issue of the chariots, the weapons, armour
and shields, the metal trumpet, their clothing, and so on.
Which paintings in Syria and Palestine?
Italo
> "Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:bn12co$f6n$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
>
>>grapheus wrote:
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
>>>>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
>>>>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
>>
>>>>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
>>>>>they settled in the Cyclades
>>
>>What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
>>
>
>
> The Skuthians claimed to be descended from the Daktulian Herakles after he
> had chased the golden hind into the far north, from which land he brought
> the silver birch ("wild-olive" sic) to the Peloponnese.
Herodotus about the origin of the Scythians (4.5) gives two other
versions: the Greeks, who say that the Scythians are descendants of
Heracles, and the Scythians themselves, who say they stem from a certain
"Lipoxais, son of Targitaos".
IIRC it was Diodorus(?) who said somewhere that the deeds attributed to
the first Heracles (who was strictly a god, not an historical person)
were later added to those of Heracles(Alcides) the son of Amphytrion &
Alcmene.
>
>>>>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
>>>>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
>>>>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>>Rubbish, the Pelasgians controlled most of the Mediterranean and Black
>
> Seas
>
>>>>during the third and second milleniums BC. In Egypt, they were the
>
> Uksos.
>
>>>
>>>RIDICULOUS !... You are mixing up different ethnies : it has been
>>>proved that the Hycksos were a Semitic people, not the "Pelasgians"
>>>!...
>>
>>The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
>>eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
>>-the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
>>
>>So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
>>
>
>
> Exactly right.
Daunus, the eponym of the Daunians, is a son of Lycaon, son of Pelasgus.
The original Daunians may've been Danai also.
>
>>Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
>>style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
>>
>
>
> Some say yes, some say no, but when viewed side by side, they are virtually
> identical. But there is also the issue of the chariots, the weapons, armour
> and shields, the metal trumpet, their clothing, and so on.
>
> Which paintings in Syria and Palestine?
Those at Alalach, Qatna, Kabri.
>
Italo
snip
> In his last dream, Odysseus reaches lovely Scherie, which means
> 'market place' in Phoenician. Now Scherie is Troy in a former
> time (Eberhard Zangger).
> Odysseus is warmly welcomed, and a
> feast is given in his honor. A blind bard and seer by the name
> of Demodocus (teacher of people) sings a ballad on the sacking
> of Troy. Everybody is pleased to hear the famous ballad. But
> the unfortunates do not know that Troy is their own beloved
> Scherie in a future time! Only Odysseus understands the song,
> he recognizes what a lovely place he destroyed, or will destroy
> in the time perspective of Demodocus and all the other Scherians,
> and he weeps. Thus, he finally finds relief. - Read how Odysseus
> reaches the shore of lovely Scherie, read it as a time travel,
> and you will see what a powerful poet Homer was.
Alternatively; Scherie was a real place.
To sum it up:
The Phaiakes are the Peuceti.
Their city lay in front of a bay with a river (at Scoglio del Tonno).
It possibly had a rock shaped as a ship in front of the entrance to the bay.
The original Peuceti (AKA.Iapyges) were said to be Pelasgians from the
Peloponnese, arriving 17 generations before the trojan war.
They may've come by way of Corcyra, which is halfway Taras and the
northern Peloponnese, as some ancient authors located them there.
After the Cretans were defeated on Sicily (1290BC?) they left their base
on Sicily(at Heraclea Minoa) and moved to Apulia, where they founded
Hyria (just east of Taras) and mixed with the Peuceti, hence the
Phaiakes "were once neighbours of the Cyclopes" (Sicily being the land
of the Cyclops).
The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
possible in the opposite direction
Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
There.
grapheus
Yes. As indicated by some scientific dating, there seem to be a dalay
of 50/100 years between similar potteries at Troy and in the Cyclades
(But this difference is almost in the error-range !). On the other
hand, it has been accepted that Troy I was founded c.1950 (M.
Korfmann), and that the Early Cycladic I began c. 2900/2800 BC at
Naxos and Melos (Pottery of the "Pelos Group").
Another argument is that such a delay is logical : Coming from the
mouth of the Danube, the Proto-Ionians "must" have settled at Troy
before peopling the Cycladic Islands.
>
> >
> >>>>>, then into Euboea and Attica. This
> >>>>>history is confirmed by the links between what M.Korfmann has called
> >>>>>"the Troja-Maritime Kultur" and the "Cycladic Culture".
> >>
> >>The myth of Io has people from Argos settle at various places in the
> >>eastern Mediterranean (e.g.Tarsus) up to Egypt. When their descendants
> >>-the Danaids- return, Argos is still held by pelasgians.
> >>
> >>So in principle even the Danaoi can be seen as pelasgian in origin.
> >>
> >>Aren't the wallpaintings at the Hyksos' capital considered Aegean in
> >>style? What about the similar paintings in Syria/Palestine?
> >
> >
> > They are universally considered as "Minoan".
>
> If any contemporary paintings would survive in the Argolis, they'd look
> "Minoan" too. That the style of the LH III "Mycenaean" examples is only
> introduced after the fall of Knossos, like Linear-B, seems unlikely.
>
> > In the frame of the
> > Proto-Ionian Theory, one has to distinguish the successive following
> > ethnies :
>
> No "Pre-Greek"?
Maybe during the Neolithic. But probably not during the Early Bronze
Age.
> > a)- "Proto-Greeks"
> > b)-"Proto-Ionians" (= "True Greeks")
> > c)- "Minoans" (probably of the same ethnos as the "Proto-Greeks")
>
> It's the Dardanians and their cult on Samothrace that are related to the
> ancient Curetes/Corybantes and Dactyls. I do _not_ think that the
> _Dardanians_ were (proto-)Greek or Pelasgian.
Why ?.. The "Minoans" may have come from the same ethnos as the
Mainland Proto-Greeks...
> I _do_ think that the
> _Teucrians_ (some link to Crete also) were Pelasgian-Greek
> ("proto-Ionian", if you insist).
>
> B.T.W., the Linear-A find from Mikro-Vouni, Samothrace, is also suggestive.
Of a link with the Minoans, yes!..
>
> > d)- "Achaeans/Mycenaeans"
> > e)- "Dorians"
> >
> > Historically (and schematically) (a) and (b) were dominant during the
> > Early Bronze Age ,
>
> > (c) during the Middle Bronze Age,
>
> Unlike the legendary tradition, which has the minoic dynasty end only at
> the beginning of the 13th c. BC.
>
> > (d) during the
> > Late Bronze Age
> >(e) around and after 1200 BC.
> >
> > The existence of the Proto-Ionians in the Aegean area since c.3000 BC
> > has led to the birth of more or less "mixed populations", generally
> > known as "Pelasgians".
> >
> > Regards
> > grapheus
>
> Maybe linear-B represents the language of the Achaioi, while the Danaoi
> could belong to the proto-Ionian element.
>
Probably, but not sure. The Danaoi are linked with Egypt, and so are
the Mycenaeans... It's a question of date... The lack of Linear
B-findings in Egypt goes your way, but maybe some Linear
B-inscriptions will be found one day, as Minoan frescoes have been
found at Avaris !...
Toivo Pedaste
> This might Germanopular question with canonicalhe subject coming
> out next year. Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said it
> did? I mean, was there really an Achilles and an Odyseus or were
> these fictional characters that Homer made up as far as we know?
I think the answer would be no.
The Illiad is attributed to Homer but it is part of a tradition of oral
poetry, until it was written down there was no concept of the canonical
text, each bard would reconstruct the details of the poem during
the performance so the story would mutate depending on the
requirement of the time. The standard example of an oral epic
reflecting historical times is the German Nibelungenlied which
has historical characters such as Thoedoric the Goth and Atilla
but has minimal resemblance to real events if the 5th century.
There are, however, things in the Illiad that are very old, some
such as the tower shield of Aias and the boars tusk helmet
of Odysseus are significantly older than the calculated date
for the siege of Troy. It has been suggested that the siege of
the city by the sea is an old Mycenean tale and when the Ionian
immigrants settled the coast of Asia Minor they applied it to
the ruins they saw at Hissalik.
--
Toivo Pedaste Email: to...@ucs.uwa.edu.au
University Communications Services, Phone: +61 8 9 380 2605
University of Western Australia Fax: +61 8 9 380 1109
"The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things"...
Franz Gnaedinger
A brief interpretation of Homer's Odyssey: Homer's name /
Trojan Horse / Oxen of Helios and Polyphem / Odysseus in Scherie /
new: Odysseus returning home (at the end)
Just finishing my brief interpretation, my reply to Italo on
another day.
Finally, Odysseus returns home. Having spent some twenty years
in Ilium and the Troas, sailing along the Dardanelles, across
the Sea of Marmara, along the shores of the Black Sea, having
seen the wide plains of the Ucraine, heart of the vast continent
of Eurasia, which survived in Plato's Atlantis - having seen
these regions, Odysseus, returning home, finds Ithaca having
been shrunken. The Peloponnese had been brought down by a new
generation of greedy and arrogant princes. Lovely Scherie
lingers on his mind. He summons the time of the Mycenaeans:
Argos (Odysseus's watchful dog is named for the king of old)
and Laertes (Odysseu's father, a gardener, who might be a
reference to Eponymous Tyrins of the Phaistos Disk, cf. my
Fable of Tiryns) who lived 500 years before him, and then he
thinks of the future, of Telemachos (his son, Greece of Homer's
time). The people and land of the Peloponnese are his (O's wife
Penelope and their connuptial bed built around the trunk of an
olive tree), and so he decides to get rid of the usurpators
(suitors of Penelope). Now the true purpose of the Odyssey,
I believe, was to unite Greece in Homer's time. That was the
reason why the Odyssey was written, and it should be read with
that purpose in mind. And be careful when you read the epic again:
Homer is no less shrewd, wily and ruseful than his hero!
The End
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
o8TY
> o8TY wrote:
>
> > "Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
> > news:bn12co$f6n$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
> >
> >>grapheus wrote:
> >>
> >>snip
> >>
> >>>>>The Proto-Ionian Theory says that the "First Wave" of Greeks was the
> >>>>>Proto-Ionian one, and that it came down from the mouth of the Danube
> >>>>>BY SEA. So, the "Proto-Ionians" were seamen, who settled near the
> >>
> >>>>>Bosphorus, where they founded Troy c.3000 BC. A few centuries later,
> >>>>>they settled in the Cyclades
> >>
> >>What evidence is there that it wasn't the other way round?
> >>
> >
> >
> > The Skuthians claimed to be descended from the Daktulian Herakles after
he
> > had chased the golden hind into the far north, from which land he
brought
> > the silver birch ("wild-olive" sic) to the Peloponnese.
>
> Herodotus about the origin of the Scythians (4.5) gives two other
> versions: the Greeks, who say that the Scythians are descendants of
> Heracles, and the Scythians themselves, who say they stem from a certain
> "Lipoxais, son of Targitaos".
>
But Targitaos was a son of Dios (Zeus), as was Herakles.
The Skuthians also worshipped Aphrodite (Hdt.4.67) who, together with Dios,
ranged on the side of the Trojans (Pelasgo-Arkadians) in the Trojan War. It
was a much shorter step/sail from Troy to the lands surrounding the Black
Sea than from the Peloponnese thence. But one must ask the question of how
the Skuthians become so Greek at a very early stage.
The Trojan War was a civil war fought for two reasons: 1) the Trojans (as
with Dardanos a few centuries earlier) had stripped the Peloponnese of its
sacred implements (ie the goddess Helen), and 2) the Trojans
(Pelasgo-Arkadians) declared Troy was the new capital of the Mukenaian
(Pelasgian) empire. The same history was to repeat with Rome and Greece,
only Greece was not so lucky the second time round.
> IIRC it was Diodorus(?) who said somewhere that the deeds attributed to
> the first Heracles (who was strictly a god, not an historical person)
> were later added to those of Heracles(Alcides) the son of Amphytrion &
> Alcmene.
>
The first Herakles was the Daktulian Herakles aka Idaean Herakles, who was
often confused in myth with the Argive/Boiotian Herakles. Nevertheless,
there is no reason to believe that Daktulian Herakles was not the figurehead
of a royal dynasty, and that the later Herakles was not a family member of
same.
Could you supply refs to websites or books showing pictures of same.
o8TY
Ajax = AIAs = <=> (symbolically Ajax laid out horizontally). This symbol
appears in Kreten and Mukenaian architecture/artwork, mostly as a vertical
bar separating two half-rosettes. The symbology conforms with the ninety
degree rotation of early letters. Hence the story of the flower growing from
the blood of AIAs with the letters AI on it.
o8TY
Homer called Pithekovssai Arimas, which may have meant "land of the
one-eyed", after Herodotos' definition of the Skuthian Arimaspasians, hence
home of the Kuklopes (they that stole (kleptes) the goddess Ku (dove
goddess)).
> The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
> west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
> blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
> possible in the opposite direction
>
> Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
> mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
> classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
> the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
>
I suspect a meaning to do with a volcano, perhaps of lava from Etna uniting
with the Italian peninsula, or of Vesuvius capturing Pithekovssai .
> There.
>
> > To be continued.
> >
> > Regards Franz Gnaedinger
>
However, I suspect Franz will declare the Phaikians were the Phokians
(modern Foca) of Aiolis, whose city existed in Mukenaian times.
o8TY
news:ole9pv4tf4sepgjbh...@4ax.com...
Gosh, Troy might even have been Mukenai itself, or Argos, or Tiruns.
Franz Gnaedinger
> Alternatively; Scherie was a real place.
> To sum it up:
>
> The Phaiakes are the Peuceti.
>
> Their city lay in front of a bay with a river (at Scoglio del Tonno).
>
> It possibly had a rock shaped as a ship in front of the entrance to the bay.
>
> The original Peuceti (AKA.Iapyges) were said to be Pelasgians from the
> Peloponnese, arriving 17 generations before the trojan war.
>
> They may've come by way of Corcyra, which is halfway Taras and the
> northern Peloponnese, as some ancient authors located them there.
>
> After the Cretans were defeated on Sicily (1290BC?) they left their base
> on Sicily(at Heraclea Minoa) and moved to Apulia, where they founded
> Hyria (just east of Taras) and mixed with the Peuceti, hence the
> Phaiakes "were once neighbours of the Cyclopes" (Sicily being the land
> of the Cyclops).
>
> The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
> west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
> blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
> possible in the opposite direction
>
> Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
> mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
> classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
> the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
>
> There.
The wind mya blow one way, the water flow another way, and a deeper
current in yet another direction. The same is true of the epic.
As the orginal question was about the Trojan War, I only considered
the past (in Homer's perspective), which lay in the East. I agree
with Eberhard Zangger on Scherie beeing an early Troy, which,
however, might be blended with Smyrna, hometown of Melegistes alias
Homer, and with Phokaia / Foca and its singing rocks that became
the ruin of so many a sailor (o8TY is right in his assumption that
I will bring up Foca: phokaia means seal, the wind blowing along
the seal like rocks makes a singing sound, and the sirens have
been identified as a special kind of seals - young Melegistes
was raised in Smyrna and visited Foca, he must have heard many
stories from sailors, which he then used in his epic). Now there
is also another wind blowing in the Odyssey: toward West and the
future. On that level of the epic, you can identify Scherie with
Corfu, still a lovely island, or with Tarentum, or with other
places in Italy, or even with New York and San Francisco, and,
if you like, with Lagany on Mars in 7129 AD - any important
market place in the future that is based on Greek culture
in one way or another.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Italo
Schliemann may´ve excavated an part even older as Troy I(at c.2950 as
you mean).
> Korfmann), and that the Early Cycladic I began c. 2900/2800 BC at
> Naxos and Melos (Pottery of the "Pelos Group").
one thing that looked typical to me were those face-pots, or face-lids,
from Troy-I/II onwards, I wonder if these are found elsewhere.
Because the descendants of the Dardanians in the north Aegean spoke
Tyrrhenian.
If they were in origin related to the Pelasgians, then _all_ Pelasgians
spoke Tyrrhenian. Since that would spoil my idea that the Dardanians
came from outside the Aegean, I guess they only _mixed_ with Pelasgian
related peoples, like the Teucrians, hence producing "Tyrrhenian
speaking Pelasgians" in the northern Aegean. Which in turn made
Herodotus think that all Pelasgians spoke originally a non-Greek language.
The (Dardanian) mystery cult of the Cabeiri at Samothrace and Lemnos
was based on a Cretan tradition, of the Curetes/Corybantes and
Dactyls(the inventors of Iron).
Electra had two sons, Dardanos and Iasion. Iasion(or Iasios) is placed
both at Samothrace, where he initiated the Kabeiroi, and on Crete, where
he appears as one of the Daktyloi who lived before Deucalion´s flood
(Paus.5.7.6).
Hesiod also places Iasion on Crete when he (and his lineage?) was killed
by a thunderbolt from Zeus.
At some time after Samothrace was hit by a flood, Dardanos moved to Troy
where Teucer was king. Maybe the flood legend as remembered on
Samothrace was brought over from Crete?
>
>>I _do_ think that the
>>_Teucrians_ (some link to Crete also) were Pelasgian-Greek
>>("proto-Ionian", if you insist).
>>
>>B.T.W., the Linear-A find from Mikro-Vouni, Samothrace, is also suggestive.
>
>
> Of a link with the Minoans, yes!..
It does fit the idea that the Dardanians came by way of Crete (among
other places).
(c.f. the Aeneid book III, 130+)
>
>>>d)- "Achaeans/Mycenaeans"
>>>e)- "Dorians"
>>>
>>>Historically (and schematically) (a) and (b) were dominant during the
>>>Early Bronze Age ,
>>
>>
>>
>>>(c) during the Middle Bronze Age,
>>
>>Unlike the legendary tradition, which has the minoic dynasty end only at
>>the beginning of the 13th c. BC.
>>
>>
>>>(d) during the
>>>Late Bronze Age
>>>(e) around and after 1200 BC.
>>>
>>>The existence of the Proto-Ionians in the Aegean area since c.3000 BC
>>>has led to the birth of more or less "mixed populations", generally
>>>known as "Pelasgians".
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>grapheus
>>
>>Maybe linear-B represents the language of the Achaioi, while the Danaoi
>>could belong to the proto-Ionian element.
>>
>
>
> Probably, but not sure. The Danaoi are linked with Egypt, and so are
> the Mycenaeans... It's a question of date... The lack of Linear
> B-findings in Egypt goes your way,
what do you mean
> but maybe some Linear
> B-inscriptions will be found one day, as Minoan frescoes have been
> found at Avaris !...
The exodus of the original Danaids from Egypt happened earlier as 1500BC.
So I don´t see what linear-B has to do with it.
Linear-B "Achaean" was the lingua franca in the 13th century,
yet the Egyptians of the 14th century BC _did_ call Mycenaean Greece
"TNJW", the land of the Danai. From an temple of Amenophis III´s
there´s the list with Danaia-place names: 1. Mukana/Mykanai, 2.
Deqajis/Thebais, 3.Misane/Messana, 4.Nuplija/Nauplion, 5.Kutira/Kythera,
6.Waleja/[W]elis), and 7.Amukla/Amyklai.
"KFTW", Late-Minoan Crete, lists: 1.Amnisha/Amnisos,
2.Bajashta/Phaistos, 3.Kutunja/Kydonia, 4.Kunusha/Knossos, 5.Likata/Lyktos.
grapheus
> you mean).
>
> > Korfmann), and that the Early Cycladic I began c. 2900/2800 BC at
> > Naxos and Melos (Pottery of the "Pelos Group").
>
> one thing that looked typical to me were those face-pots, or face-lids,
> from Troy-I/II onwards, I wonder if these are found elsewhere.
Very good question !... In fact, it seems that these anthropomorphic
vases combine the Neolithic tradition of Human Figurines with Pottery
Technic of the Bronze Age... A similar vase was found at Glozel in
France, perhaps in a Neolithic environment (But this Glozel discovery
"might" be imported stuff : the digging was done with no care !).. An
anthropomorphic vase, but a but different, has been (supposedly) found
at Naxos. It is in stone.
Personally, I don't know about any other examples...
That the Danaoi were "Proto-Ionians/Pelasgians", not Mycenaeans.
> > but maybe some Linear
> > B-inscriptions will be found one day, as Minoan frescoes have been
> > found at Avaris !...
>
> The exodus of the original Danaids from Egypt happened earlier as 1500BC.
But it does'n't prove with total certainty that the Danaoi were
Proto-Ionians/Pelasgians. They still can be Mycenaeans. As you state
hereafter, the Danaoi are mentioned in Egypt as settled in the
Mycenaean area c. 1350 BC.
>
> So I don´t see what linear-B has to do with it.
> Linear-B "Achaean" was the lingua franca in the 13th century,
>
You are right. I was just thinking to a big big surprise, like the
Ampertal findings !.. But the probability of it is null !..
> yet the Egyptians of the 14th century BC _did_ call Mycenaean Greece
> "TNJW", the land of the Danai. From an temple of Amenophis III´s
> there´s the list with Danaia-place names: 1. Mukana/Mykanai, 2.
> Deqajis/Thebais, 3.Misane/Messana, 4.Nuplija/Nauplion, 5.Kutira/Kythera,
> 6.Waleja/[W]elis), and 7.Amukla/Amyklai.
>
> "KFTW", Late-Minoan Crete, lists: 1.Amnisha/Amnisos,
> 2.Bajashta/Phaistos, 3.Kutunja/Kydonia, 4.Kunusha/Knossos, 5.Likata/Lyktos.
>
> >>As also the pelasgian Athenians or Teucrians(Athens, Salamis-->Cyprus,
> >>Crete, Troy-->Antandros and Gergis).
> >>
> >>The Pelasgians of Herodotus 1.57, like the Lemnians, are Teucrians who
> >>adopted the language of the Dardanians (with whom the Teucrians mixed).
> >>
> >>Hence the confusion.
Best regards
grapheus
Chris Camfield
[snip]
>Gosh, Troy might even have been Mukenai itself, or Argos, or Tiruns.
But Greek myths does seem to reflect a power situation not completely unlike the
archaeological record - Mycenae and Tiryns are important places, which they
certainly weren't later, and later places of import aren't. That could just be
a deliberate archaism, but still, I don't see a particular reason why a mainland
location would be displaced across the Aegean for the purposes of poetry, when
we do have solid examples of myths of wars between those cities, like the Seven
Against Thebes.
Chris
Italo
> Italo wrote
snip
>>After the Cretans were defeated on Sicily (1290BC?) they left their base
>>on Sicily(at Heraclea Minoa) and moved to Apulia, where they founded
>>Hyria (just east of Taras) and mixed with the Peuceti, hence the
>>Phaiakes "were once neighbours of the Cyclopes" (Sicily being the land
>>of the Cyclops).
>>
>
>
> Homer called Pithekovssai Arimas, which may have meant "land of the
> one-eyed", after Herodotos' definition of the Skuthian Arimaspasians, hence
> home of the Kuklopes (they that stole (kleptes) the goddess Ku (dove
> goddess)).
I'm not so sure
Pithecusa may be Circe's island.
It's near a volcano, yes, but AFAIK it never was called Arimas.. maybe
you confused it with Ariminium(Rimini)?
Arima-spou may mean one-eyed in scythian but then Homer's Arima was in
Cilicia and the disaster there happened _before_ the Trojan War, that of
the Phaeacians _after_.
I think 'Kuklops' is the grecianized form of a word that also led to the
names 'Cacus'(a fire breathing giant in Latium; the volcanic Mt.Alba?),
Caeculus.
It's probably a word meaning 'mountain', or similar, with the first part
related (through I.E.) with English 'high', like 'Kaukasos'.
>
>>The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
>>west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
>>blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
>>possible in the opposite direction
>
>>Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
>>mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
>>classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
>>the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
>>
>
>
> I suspect a meaning to do with a volcano, perhaps of lava from Etna uniting
> with the Italian peninsula, or of Vesuvius capturing Pithekovssai .
Inland Peucetia contains a soft limestone plateau, full of natural
formed caves. The Peuceti went to live in cave dwellings.
>
Italo
>>>Korfmann), and that the Early Cycladic I began c. 2900/2800 BC at
>>>Naxos and Melos (Pottery of the "Pelos Group").
>>
>>one thing that looked typical to me were those face-pots, or face-lids,
>>from Troy-I/II onwards, I wonder if these are found elsewhere.
>
>
> Very good question !... In fact, it seems that these anthropomorphic
> vases combine the Neolithic tradition of Human Figurines with Pottery
> Technic of the Bronze Age... A similar vase was found at Glozel in
> France, perhaps in a Neolithic environment (But this Glozel discovery
> "might" be imported stuff : the digging was done with no care !).. An
> anthropomorphic vase, but a but different, has been (supposedly) found
> at Naxos. It is in stone.
> Personally, I don't know about any other examples...
I read there are some vases with faces from Tarxien, Malta, that may
follow closely "Anatolian (especially from Troy) and Aegean models
(Cyprus, Crete)". I haven´t seen any pictures other than those of Troy,
though.
An (very rudimentary) example from Germany:
http://www.landesmuseum-stuttgart.de/cgi-bin/hilites_bin/hl.php?nr=5
>
>>
grapheus
Many thanks for this interesting link.
I believe that such vases are the result of the crossing of the
vessel-notion and of the feminine figurines of the (Death?-) Goddess.
Such an idea seems to have happened several times, independently, at
several locations. The oldest example (c.5600 BC) I've found is from
Hacilar, in Anatolia (Ref . "Earliest Civilizations of the Near East"
by James Mellaart, Plate 99). The Troyan examples are pretty numerous
during Troy IV around 2200BC, the Cretan and Cyprian examples even
later. The earliest example I've found is from Tlukom (Poland, but
former Prussia), dated between the VIIIth and the IVth Century BC
(Ref. "The Great Mother" by Erich Neumann, Plate 31B).
As I said hereabove, such a large span in time and such a large
geographical repartition let one believe in independent, episodical
creations, don't you think ?..
Regards
grapheus
Franz Gnaedinger
a brief interpretation of Homer's Odyssey, exploring just one
layer of the epic. A complete interpretation is found on my
website
> > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
> > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer2.htm
In my opinion there have been several Trojan wars, whose reason
was the Mycenaean need of tin, a precious metal required for
casting bronze. Tin came from the ore mountain up the river
Danube, and from Afghanistan. Ships going there and coming
from there have been controlled by the Trojans, who asked fees
and tolls. A drastic impression of the Trojan war is given in
the Polyphem episode of the Odyssey.
The Achaean harbor, camp and wooden wall (Odysseus and his men
in the cave of Polyphem) lay one or two kilometers north or
north-east of the Trojan citadel (eye of Polyphem). The sacking
of Ilium (blinding of Polyphem) was followed by a deluge
(Poseidon assisting Polyphem) that swept away the Achaean camp.
Nevertheless, a few poles of the wooden wall might be found
deep down in the alluvial soil.
The Achaean ships have been large and fast (horses), other
Aegean ships were smaller (sheep and goats), and the freight
ships carrying tin and gold along the shores of the Black Sea
were broad and strong (oxen of Helios Hyperion). Remains of
a defeated Achaean fleet might be found in the oxygen-free
ground of the Black Sea between the Crimea and Odessa.
I guess the answer whether the Trojan war(s) actually happened
will be answered for good within some 30 years.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
o8TY
> o8TY wrote:
>
> > Italo wrote
>
> snip
> >>After the Cretans were defeated on Sicily (1290BC?) they left their base
> >>on Sicily(at Heraclea Minoa) and moved to Apulia, where they founded
> >>Hyria (just east of Taras) and mixed with the Peuceti, hence the
> >>Phaiakes "were once neighbours of the Cyclopes" (Sicily being the land
> >>of the Cyclops).
> >>
> >
> >
> > Homer called Pithekovssai Arimas, which may have meant "land of the
> > one-eyed", after Herodotos' definition of the Skuthian Arimaspasians,
hence
> > home of the Kuklopes (they that stole (kleptes) the goddess Ku (dove
> > goddess)).
>
> I'm not so sure
>
> Pithecusa may be Circe's island.
> It's near a volcano, yes, but AFAIK it never was called Arimas.. maybe
> you confused it with Ariminium(Rimini)?
>
Iliad 2.783, then according to Herodotos, Aristeas from Prokonessos was last
seen near Metapontum in southern Italy, and a few others (Strabo, Diodorus,
from memory) also mention it in relation to Typhon.
> Arima-spou may mean one-eyed in scythian but then Homer's Arima was in
> Cilicia and the disaster there happened _before_ the Trojan War, that of
> the Phaeacians _after_.
>
> I think 'Kuklops' is the grecianized form of a word that also led to the
> names 'Cacus'(a fire breathing giant in Latium; the volcanic Mt.Alba?),
> Caeculus.
Goddess Ku eg Ku-bele, Ku-bebe, Ku-thera, Ku-pris, Ku-klopes, her-Ku-les,
Ku-retes and quite a few more.
I too think volcanoes are integral to Greek myth. The Alban mount is good
and close. I can live with that.
> It's probably a word meaning 'mountain', or similar, with the first part
> related (through I.E.) with English 'high', like 'Kaukasos'.
>
Also plays with Kaikos, as in Kaikos river by Pergamos, hence the
relationship between Rome and Pergamos.
> >
> >>The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
> >>west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
> >>blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
> >>possible in the opposite direction
> >
> >>Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
> >>mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
> >>classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
> >>the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
> >>
> >
> >
> > I suspect a meaning to do with a volcano, perhaps of lava from Etna
uniting
> > with the Italian peninsula, or of Vesuvius capturing Pithekovssai .
>
> Inland Peucetia contains a soft limestone plateau, full of natural
> formed caves. The Peuceti went to live in cave dwellings.
>
I wonder if the Pevketians worshipped Poseidon?
Franz Gnaedinger
> > > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
> > > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer2.htm
Homer, I believe, took an interest in the archaeology of the
periods around 1200 and 1700 BC. The latter era belongs to
the gardener Laertes (Odysseus's father), to Elaia's grove
at Phigalia, to the lost original of the Phaistos Disk, to
Eponymous Tiryns, to his mentor king Argos, to the Argonauts,
and to Scherie as an early Troy. When Odysseus reaches Scherie,
he sleeps under an olive and a wild olive. This means he
reached an early time when the Mediterranneans began culti-
vating olives. The goddess of vegetation, probably Elaia,
meaning olive, is shown on a gold ring from Mokhlas in Crete:
http://www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF
Her ship is a horse, animal of Poseidon, originally the god
of rivers. Poseidon loved Elaia, but she fled him, turning
into a horse, whereupon he turned into a stallion and raped
her. Angry, she turned black and made all plants wither,
causing a famine. This episode of Greek mythology obviously
refers to rivers inundating and devastating cultivated land.
Odysseus, leaving Scherie, early Troy, which, by the way,
was a foundation of Poseidon: "And now, like a team of four
stallions on the plain who start as one at the touch of the
whip, leaping forward to make short of the course, so the
stern of the ship leaped forward, and a great dark wave of
the surrounding sea surged in her wake." (Odyssey, Penguin
Classics)
If there was a Trojan Horse, it might well have been a ship.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger
o8TY
"Franz Gnaedinger" <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
news:2bf25455.03102...@posting.google.com...
> fr...@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message
news:<2bf25455.0310...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > > > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer1.htm
> > > > > > > http://www.seshat.ch/home/homer2.htm
>
> Homer, I believe, took an interest in the archaeology of the
> periods around 1200 and 1700 BC. The latter era belongs to
> the gardener Laertes (Odysseus's father), to Elaia's grove
> at Phigalia, to the lost original of the Phaistos Disk, to
> Eponymous Tiryns, to his mentor king Argos, to the Argonauts,
> and to Scherie as an early Troy. When Odysseus reaches Scherie,
> he sleeps under an olive and a wild olive.
Can you tell me where this occurs in the Odyssey?
> This means he
> reached an early time when the Mediterranneans began culti-
> vating olives.
But it is the identity of the "wild-olive" (agrielaios or kotinos) that
needs to be looked at, the same plant which the Daktulian Herakles had
earlier brought back from the north and which he incorporated into the
Olympic Games festival. I suspect it is the birch. The ordinary olive is a
no-brainer.
> The goddess of vegetation, probably Elaia,
> meaning olive, is shown on a gold ring from Mokhlas in Crete:
>
> http://www.seshat.ch/home/elaia.GIF
>
> Her ship is a horse, animal of Poseidon, originally the god
> of rivers. Poseidon loved Elaia, but she fled him, turning
> into a horse, whereupon he turned into a stallion and raped
> her. Angry, she turned black and made all plants wither,
> causing a famine. This episode of Greek mythology obviously
> refers to rivers inundating and devastating cultivated land.
>
Also of winter die-back.
> Odysseus, leaving Scherie, early Troy, which, by the way,
> was a foundation of Poseidon: "And now, like a team of four
> stallions on the plain who start as one at the touch of the
> whip, leaping forward to make short of the course, so the
> stern of the ship leaped forward, and a great dark wave of
> the surrounding sea surged in her wake." (Odyssey, Penguin
> Classics)
>
But who were the people that worshipped Poseidon. No horse ever founded a
human city. Surely it was the Pelasgians from the north and west coasts of
the Peloponnese that had earlier established Elike in the Gulf of Korinthos
and then Mukales in Asia Minos opposite Samos.
Franz Gnaedinger
> But it is the identity of the "wild-olive" (agrielaios or kotinos) that
> needs to be looked at, the same plant which the Daktulian Herakles had
> earlier brought back from the north and which he incorporated into the
> Olympic Games festival. I suspect it is the birch. The ordinary olive is a
> no-brainer.
"Not far from the river he found a copse in a clearing. Here he crept
under a pair of bush, one a wild olive, one an olive, which grew from
the same stem ..." Odysseuy, book 5, line 477:
... ho men phyliaes, ho men elaiaes
For the contemporaries of Homer this must have been a clear indication
that angry Poseidon flung Odysseus backward into an early period of
time. - We allow Matt Groening every twisting and shifting of levels,
why not also Homer?
A few lines later, near the end of book 5: "The noble, long-suffering
Odysseus was delighted with his bed, and lay down in the middle of it,
covering himself with a blanket of leaves. This he did as carefully
as a farmer on a lonely farm far away from any neighbours buries
a glowing log under the black ashes to keep his fire alive ..." And
then, book 9, Odysseus in Polyphem's cave: "I went at once and thrust
our pole deep under the ashes of the fire to make it hot." Now
Scherie is an early Troy, Polyphem is Troy in the time of the Trojan
War, and the olive pole that will blend Polyphem is Odysseus himself,
sacker of Troy.
When the nymphs get hold of him they all give a loud shriek and run
away from him, whereupon Nausicaa exclaims: "Stop, girls. Where are
you flying to at the sight of a man? Don't tell me you take him for
an enemy." Poor Nausicaa! the man she so warmly welcomes IS their
enemy, the worst of enemies, the very one who will sack lovely
Scherie, although in a much later time, some 500 years hence.
Nausicaa tells Odysseus how to find the palace of her parents
(the citadel of early Troy), and Athene veils him in a fog,
so that he can enter it invisible (as later in the Trojan Horse!),
and when returning home from pleasant Scherie Athene flies in
a straight line from early Troy to Marathon and Athens. Please
consult a map of the Aegean. Marathon lies on the connecting line
of Troy and Athens.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Chris Camfield
>"o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3fa09...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
>
>> But it is the identity of the "wild-olive" (agrielaios or kotinos) that
>> needs to be looked at, the same plant which the Daktulian Herakles had
>> earlier brought back from the north and which he incorporated into the
>> Olympic Games festival. I suspect it is the birch. The ordinary olive is a
>> no-brainer.
>
>"Not far from the river he found a copse in a clearing. Here he crept
>under a pair of bush, one a wild olive, one an olive, which grew from
>the same stem ..." Odysseuy, book 5, line 477:
>
> ... ho men phyliaes, ho men elaiaes
>
>For the contemporaries of Homer this must have been a clear indication
>that angry Poseidon flung Odysseus backward into an early period of
>time. - We allow Matt Groening every twisting and shifting of levels,
>why not also Homer?
Franz, all I have to say is that your theories are nuttier than a fruitcake.
All this indicates is that _in Homer's time_ there were cultivated olives. Your
association of events in Polyphemus' cave with Troy are so far-fetched it
beggars the imagination.
Chris
Italo
> "Italo" <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:bneb27$lgn$1...@news4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
>
>>o8TY wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Italo wrote
>>
>>snip
>>
>>>>After the Cretans were defeated on Sicily (1290BC?) they left their base
>>>>on Sicily(at Heraclea Minoa) and moved to Apulia, where they founded
>>>>Hyria (just east of Taras) and mixed with the Peuceti, hence the
>>>>Phaiakes "were once neighbours of the Cyclopes" (Sicily being the land
>>>>of the Cyclops).
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Homer called Pithekovssai Arimas, which may have meant "land of the
>>>one-eyed", after Herodotos' definition of the Skuthian Arimaspasians,
>
> hence
>
>>>home of the Kuklopes (they that stole (kleptes) the goddess Ku (dove
>>>goddess)).
>>
>>I'm not so sure
>>
>>Pithecusa may be Circe's island.
>>It's near a volcano, yes, but AFAIK it never was called Arimas.. maybe
>>you confused it with Ariminium(Rimini)?
>>
>
>
> Iliad 2.783, then according to Herodotos, Aristeas from Prokonessos was last
> seen near Metapontum in southern Italy, and a few others (Strabo, Diodorus,
> from memory) also mention it in relation to Typhon.
O.K. It's Strabo who has Pithecusa as one of the possible locations for
the Arimoi.
>
>>Arima-spou may mean one-eyed in scythian but then Homer's Arima was in
>>Cilicia and the disaster there happened _before_ the Trojan War, that of
>>the Phaeacians _after_.
>>
>>I think 'Kuklops' is the grecianized form of a word that also led to the
>>names 'Cacus'(a fire breathing giant in Latium; the volcanic Mt.Alba?),
>>Caeculus.
>
>
> Goddess Ku eg Ku-bele, Ku-bebe, Ku-thera, Ku-pris, Ku-klopes, her-Ku-les,
> Ku-retes and quite a few more.
> I too think volcanoes are integral to Greek myth. The Alban mount is good
> and close. I can live with that.
That is, if the traditional location at the Aventine or Palatine never
had any volcanic activity. I'm not sure if they had or not.
>
>>It's probably a word meaning 'mountain', or similar, with the first part
>>related (through I.E.) with English 'high', like 'Kaukasos'.
>>
>
>
> Also plays with Kaikos, as in Kaikos river by Pergamos, hence the
> relationship between Rome and Pergamos.
Going by free association; Latin 'caeco' = 'to make blind', a link with
the blinding of Polyphemos?
On the other hand there are Lat. 'cacumen'= 'the peak, top, utmost
point' and Sardinian 'cuccuru'= 'peak, summit, (hill-)top'.
>
>>>>The clue to the riddle of their magic ships is the Iapyx, the
>>>>west-northwest wind blowing off the coast of Iapygia. When this wind
>>>>blows, ships from Taras can reach Greece much faster as it is ever
>>>>possible in the opposite direction
>>>
>>>>Finally the prophecy that their home would become "enveloped with a
>>>>mountain" is easily explained if you take a look at the murge of
>>>>classical Peucetia, the hinterland of Tarentum, where they lived after
>>>>the Greek colonization of the coastal areas.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I suspect a meaning to do with a volcano, perhaps of lava from Etna
>
> uniting
>
>>>with the Italian peninsula, or of Vesuvius capturing Pithekovssai .
>>
>>Inland Peucetia contains a soft limestone plateau, full of natural
>>formed caves. The Peuceti went to live in cave dwellings.
>>
>
>
> I wonder if the Pevketians worshipped Poseidon?
At Tarentum there was an (probably pre-greek) cult to Taras, a son of
Poseidon.
Homer makes Alcinous a descendant of Poseidon and Periboea, daughter of
the leader of the Gigantes, the sons of Earth (Odyssey 7.50-70).
Strabo 6.3.5 also mentions a mythical story about Gigantes in the
Sallentine peninsula.(not sure if it has any relevance, as Strabo says
those came by way of Campania).
>
Italo
At first they reminded me to Etruscan canopes, but that seems an
independent development as well.
Italo
A (grafted) cultivated olive and a wild olive growing from the same
stem, mirrors the image of Scheria as an civilized community founded on
barbarian territory.
Franz Gnaedinger
> Franz, all I have to say is that your theories are nuttier than a fruitcake.
> All this indicates is that _in Homer's time_ there were cultivated olives. Your
> association of events in Polyphemus' cave with Troy are so far-fetched it
> beggars the imagination.
>
> Chris
Edible olives grew in Crete from around 3500 BC on and in Syria from
2500 BC on, while they were planted in other Mediterrannean places
in around 1200 BC, and no one knows where it began. I don't agree
with the latter date, since there must have been olives growing
in Arcadia as early as 1700 BC (Elaia's grove at Phigalia). Sure
enough edible olives were known in Homer's time, around 700 BC,
but _Odysseus's time_ was 1200 BC (and Laertes's time around 1700 BC,
as explained previously).
Follows a hermeneutic interpretation of the Ino episode in book 5
of Homer's Odyssey: "But there was a witness of Odysseus's plight.
This was the daughter of Cadmus, Ino of the slim ankles, who was
once a mortal woman speaking like ourselves, but now lives in the
salt depths of the sea, and, as Leucotheae the White Goddess, has
been acknowledged by the gods." Ino encounters Odysseus on his way
to Scherie and gives him a magic veil: "Here; take this veil and
wind it around your waist. With its divine protection you need not
be afraid of injury or death."
What may the Ino episode mean? is it a mere filler and stretcher?
verbal styropor? Chris et al. may believe so. I do not.
Ino was the daughter of Cadmus, a Phoenician prince from the Lebanon,
brother of Europa. Cadmus brought writing to Greece and founded
Boeotian Thebes. What if Ino, his daughter, represents _writing_?
She once was a mortal woman speaking as ourselves, but now she has
become immortal. Spoken words are transitory but may become immortal
when written down. Ino is a goddess of the salt depths of the sea.
We may consider the past a deep ocean. Salt is a well-known
preservative, and writing preserves long gone events. Ino's epithet
is Leucotheae, White Goddess. We may think of a freshly prepared
papyrus. And if her magic veil is a - scroll? Reading of past events
such as the Trojan War may shake us, but we are never really in danger.
Odysseus's time travel to Scherie resembles then our reading of the epic.
We shall take off our clothes = forget about our own life circumstances;
drift along with the four winds = follow all twistings of a plot; and
throw back the magic veil and never look back = forget about the medium
(scroll book screen) and completely immerse in the story.
Ino "rose from the water like a sea-gull on the wing" - a beautiful
metaphor of how events arise from the 'waves' of written lines.
Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
o8TY
> "o8TY" <o8...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3fa09...@news.iprimus.com.au>...
>
> > But it is the identity of the "wild-olive" (agrielaios or kotinos) that
> > needs to be looked at, the same plant which the Daktulian Herakles had
> > earlier brought back from the north and which he incorporated into the
> > Olympic Games festival. I suspect it is the birch. The ordinary olive is
a
> > no-brainer.
>
> "Not far from the river he found a copse in a clearing. Here he crept
> under a pair of bush, one a wild olive, one an olive, which grew from
> the same stem ..." Odysseuy, book 5, line 477:
>
> ... ho men phyliaes, ho men elaiaes
>
In one text phulies = wild-olive, in another = thorn. I am not convinced it
means wild-olive.
There is no mention of a phulies in Theophrastos, however, there is philura
(= lime-tree, sic), being one of my contenders for the silver birch, and a
philura e theleia, which may have been used as a fire-stick.
[snip]
Italo
> Chris Camfield <ccam...@DELETEMEemail.com> wrote in message news:<lbs4qvgubn49m2p9l...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>>Franz, all I have to say is that your theories are nuttier than a fruitcake.
>>All this indicates is that _in Homer's time_ there were cultivated olives. Your
>>association of events in Polyphemus' cave with Troy are so far-fetched it
>>beggars the imagination.
>>
>>Chris
>
>
> Edible olives grew in Crete from around 3500 BC on and in Syria from
> 2500 BC on, while they were planted in other Mediterrannean places
> in around 1200 BC, and no one knows where it began. I don't agree
> with the latter date, since there must have been olives growing
> in Arcadia as early as 1700 BC (Elaia's grove at Phigalia). Sure
> enough edible olives were known in Homer's time, around 700 BC,
> but _Odysseus's time_ was 1200 BC (and Laertes's time around 1700 BC,
> as explained previously).
The olive tree also marks the presence of the goddess Athena.
Odysseus is more as once resting close to an olive tree. Besides on
Scheria, Odysseus is left sleeping near the olive tree at the harbour of
Ithaka, and then there is the bed that Odysseus made out of an olive
trunk at his palace.
Could it signify that Athena watches over him while he's asleep?
> Follows a hermeneutic interpretation of the Ino episode in book 5
> of Homer's Odyssey: "But there was a witness of Odysseus's plight.
> This was the daughter of Cadmus, Ino of the slim ankles, who was
> once a mortal woman speaking like ourselves, but now lives in the
> salt depths of the sea, and, as Leucotheae the White Goddess, has
Ino was deified after she drowned in the sea, so it's appropiate that
Homer has her save Odysseus.
> been acknowledged by the gods." Ino encounters Odysseus on his way
> to Scherie
More precise as he was on his way to the bottom of the sea.
> and gives him a magic veil: "Here; take this veil and
> wind it around your waist. With its divine protection you need not
> be afraid of injury or death."
Maybe this attribute of her is the veil of death?
Franz Gnaedinger
Replies to Italo and o8TY follow later. Being fond of my
interpretation of the Ino episode in book 5 of Homer's Odyssey
I repeat my message, adding a few lines wherein I link Ino's
beautiful slim ankles to writing. Ino, daughter of Cadmus, might
have been a historical Boeotian queen who gained merit in spreading
the grammata (letters, alphabet) of her father, and was therefore
honored and immortalized by Homer. Her step children Hellae and
Phryxos, however, not mentioned in the Odyssey, must be allegorical,
meaning Hellas and Phrygia, Greece and Anatolia, the Greek mainland
and the Ionian colonies along the Aegean shoreline of Anatolia
where Greek was spoken and written.
I can't see any other reason for summoning Ino. Calypso and mighty
Athene would have provided help enough for saving Odysseus. Needing
Ino for the same purpose would have been a dramaturgic overkill
forgiveable in a minor bard but not in Homer. (Actually, Calypso
doesn't really help Odysseus, what shall be explained in a later
post).
Ino is called kallisphyros Ino = Ino of the beautiful slim ankles
(5, 333). Also her slim ankles may be an allusion to writing. In book
11, line 470, Achilles is called podekeos Aikidado = the Aikide on
swift feet, Achilles the runner. Ino got fine bones, beautiful slim
ankles, and yet, as personification of writing, she is by far swifter
than Achilles, moving from one place to any other place in no time,
much like Hermes on his winged feet. And wings are not far, since
Ino "rose from the water like a sea-gull on the wing."
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Franz Gnaedinger
> The olive tree also marks the presence of the goddess Athena.
>
> Odysseus is more as once resting close to an olive tree. Besides on
> Scheria, Odysseus is left sleeping near the olive tree at the harbour of
> Ithaka, and then there is the bed that Odysseus made out of an olive
> trunk at his palace.
>
> Could it signify that Athena watches over him while he's asleep?
Athene in the Odyssey (I believe) personifies history: once favoring
Anatolia, now favoring Greece by supporting and protecting Odysseus,
who embodies Greek virility, seafaring, military action, and politics,
while the name of his wife Penelope is a pun on Peloponnese.
The Cretan name of the olive was elawia. This name turned in the
Arcadian / Mycenaean / Greek elaia. The goddess Elaia, worshipped
at Phigalia as early as 1700 BC, was an alter ego of Demeter,
since the goddess who can make grow barley can also breed olives.
You are right in mentioning Penelope's bed built around an olive
tree-trunk by Odysseus. Only he and no other man knows that secret.
Now the trunk was once a tree. Here you are again confronted with
two different levels of time: Penelope's bed symbolizes Greece
in around 1200 BC, while the former olive tree symbolizes Greece
in around 1700 BC, in the time of Lord Laertes, father of Odysseus,
a gardener, probably identical with Eponymous Tiryns, who fathered
Achaia of Odysseus's time in a similar way as Abraham Lincoln and
George Washington father America of our time. It is only by
carefully discerning between the levels of time that we can
really comprehend the Odyssey and fully appreciate Homer's genius.
Next time I shall explain a master scheme of Homer, who, I can
only repeat myself, was no less shrewd, wily and ruseful than his
hero: how Odysseus leaves Calypso's cave (Troy after the war),
how Calypso (his Trojan lover) only seemingly gives in, how she
tries a ruse on him, how Odysseus nears lovely Scherie (Troy
again), how Poseidon interferes and sends him on a time travel
back in time to an early Scherie (early Troy) and inflicts a
psychological revenge on him (Odysseus, recognizing what a lovely
place he had destroyed can't help weeping). And then I shall
explain what Odysseus really means when he tells the events in
Polyphem's cave (Troas of the war): he justifies his deed
(sacking of Troy) by inventing a fable that makes every listener
feel with him and agreeing on Polyphem's blinding (which is the
sacking and burning down of their own citadel! Imagine Franklyn
Delano Roosevelt on a time travel to early Japan where he has to
tell what happened or will happen to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in
such a way that his royal audience can follow and are hundred
per cent on his side ...) And then I shall reveal the true cause
of the Trojan War by comparing Scherie with Polyphem's cave.
Chris called my 'theories' nuttier than a fruitcake. Well, I pass
his compliment over to Homer, whose Odyssey is a cake rich in fruit,
and nuts galore, sweet hazels and bitter almonds.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Italo
> Italo <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message news:<bo0ne0$6kj$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>...
>
>
>>The olive tree also marks the presence of the goddess Athena.
>>
>>Odysseus is more as once resting close to an olive tree. Besides on
>>Scheria, Odysseus is left sleeping near the olive tree at the harbour of
>>Ithaka, and then there is the bed that Odysseus made out of an olive
>>trunk at his palace.
>>
>>Could it signify that Athena watches over him while he's asleep?
>
>
> Athene in the Odyssey (I believe) personifies history: once favoring
> Anatolia, now favoring Greece by supporting and protecting Odysseus,
> who embodies Greek virility, seafaring, military action, and politics,
> while the name of his wife Penelope is a pun on Peloponnese.
Athena represents wisdom (among other things) and history telling is
part of that, I guess.
She also introduced the first olive trees, says the myth.
> The Cretan name of the olive was elawia.
Isn't 'olive' in linear-b written as a logogram
> This name turned in the
> Arcadian / Mycenaean / Greek elaia. The goddess Elaia, worshipped
> at Phigalia as early as 1700 BC, was an alter ego of Demeter,
> since the goddess who can make grow barley can also breed olives.
Does it say anywhere that Elaia was another name of Demeter (or her
daughter, nicknamed Despoina)? Isn't this 'Elaia' just a toponym -the
olive-hill near Phigalia-?
"..Mount Elaius, is some thirty stades away from Phigalia, and has a
cave sacred to Demeter surnamed Black."
from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=paus.+8.42.1-7
Looking for some more clues I came across
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+8.37.1
where I read:
"..Beyond what is called the Hall is a grove, sacred to the Mistress and
surrounded by a wall of stones, and within it are trees, _including an
olive and an evergreen oak growing out of one root_, and that not the
result of a clever piece of gardening..." [Pausanias 8.37.10]
Which reminds me of "..a pair of bush, one a wild olive, one an olive,
which grew from the same stem ..." etc.
> You are right in mentioning Penelope's bed built around an olive
> tree-trunk by Odysseus. Only he and no other man knows that secret.
> Now the trunk was once a tree. Here you are again confronted with
> two different levels of time: Penelope's bed symbolizes Greece
> in around 1200 BC, while the former olive tree symbolizes Greece
> in around 1700 BC, in the time of Lord Laertes, father of Odysseus,
> a gardener,
To explain why a retired person takes up gardening doesn't need that
much thought.
> probably identical with Eponymous Tiryns, who fathered
> Achaia of Odysseus's time in a similar way as Abraham Lincoln and
> George Washington father America of our time. It is only by
> carefully discerning between the levels of time that we can
> really comprehend the Odyssey and fully appreciate Homer's genius.
> Next time I shall explain a master scheme of Homer, who, I can
> only repeat myself, was no less shrewd, wily and ruseful than his
> hero: how Odysseus leaves Calypso's cave (Troy after the war),
> how Calypso (his Trojan lover) only seemingly gives in, how she
> tries a ruse on him, how Odysseus nears lovely Scherie (Troy
> again), how Poseidon interferes and sends him on a time travel
> back in time to an early Scherie (early Troy) and inflicts a
> psychological revenge on him (Odysseus, recognizing what a lovely
> place he had destroyed can't help weeping). And then I shall
> explain what Odysseus really means when he tells the events in
> Polyphem's cave (Troas of the war): he justifies his deed
> (sacking of Troy) by inventing a fable that makes every listener
> feel with him and agreeing on Polyphem's blinding (which is the
> sacking and burning down of their own citadel!
Homer seems to take a lot of care to place everything in the right
chronologic order. Whenever there's an exception, like the flashbacks as
Odysseus tells his adventures or the few prophecies concerning the
future, then that is always made clear to his audience/readers.
> Imagine Franklyn
> Delano Roosevelt on a time travel to early Japan where he has to
> tell what happened or will happen to Hiroshima and Nagasaki in
> such a way that his royal audience can follow and are hundred
> per cent on his side ...)
What would cause one to feel sympathic towards his future destroyer??
('destiny' may play an important role in Homeric logic, but this sounds
a bit off..)
Franz Gnaedinger
> Chris called my 'theories' nuttier than a fruitcake. Well, I pass
> his compliment over to Homer, whose Odyssey is a cake rich in fruit,
> and nuts galore, sweet hazels and bitter almonds.
The story of Calypso retold by me:
Odysseus, while staying in Troy and roaming the Aegean shore,
the Dardanelles, the Sea of Marmara, the Black Sea, has many
women, among them Circe, the sirens, and his Trojan mistress
Calypso. Having spent 20 years in Troy he longs for home,
but Calypso, who still loves him dearly, ardently, begs him
to stay: her land is by far more fecund than his, and as king
of Troy, with her as queen by his side, he may gain immortal
fame.
In his dream, beautiful Calypso turns in a goddess. She swears
that she won't plan a mischief against him. She wishes only
his very best. And she keeps word by providing him with tools
for making a raft, by summoning a wind and blowing him across
the sea. Now he sails homeward, never sleeping, never closing
an eye, for 17 days and nights.
But he is fooled by his dream. Actually he sleeps all the time.
He wakes up only for a few moments, and then he keeps the
constellation of the Great Bear on his left side, as he was
adviced by Calypso. And thus he is heading back for Troy ...
What happened? Did Calypso break her holy oath? No. She really
planned his very best, which is, of course, his returning to
her and becoming king of Troy!
Zeus allows Odysseus returning home as soon as he has absolved
his dream-journeys. which bring him back to Troy over and over
again, however, a Troy in disguise and blended with other places.
On his last journey he shall reach lovely Scherie, which is a
better Troy, a peaceful Troy cooperating with a peaceful Mycenae.
And then, when he has worked through the Trojan war, he shall
be released, sail home and see his friends again.
But where is his true home? asks Calypso; Ithaca, where he was
born and which he left a long time ago? no, his true home is Troy,
which he conquered and where he may rule as king, with me, queen
Calypso, by his side!
Poor nymph, your ruse must fail. Poseidon, upon returning from
Ethiopia, sees Odysseus nearing Scherie, which is his (P's)
foundation. Never shall his enemy rule that place! Poseidon
makes sure that Odysseus won't meet Calypso again. He summons
a gale that makes Odysseus go astray. And astray he goes, but
not in space, as intended by Poseidon, but in time: Odysseus
reaches an early Scherie, which is an early Troy, and again
a better Troy. Here he meets another nymph by the name of
Nausicaa. He is warmly welcomed by her, by her parents, and
by all the nobles, and when he realizes what a lovely place
he had destroyed he can't help weeping.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
o8TY
I still think you are looking at the wrong olive, which should not be the
domestic olive but the wild olive brought by Herakles from the north and
transplanted at Olumpia. This plant (birch) was later confused with the
white poplar, used for the sacrifices to Zeus at Olumpia, and of which a
qualified woodcutter who could tell the two plants apart was specially
chosen by the Olumpic priests to fetch.
As Italo points out an "olive" grew beside an oak in the grove near
Phigalia. This needs to be explained in terms of the more ancient Herakles
story, especially when discussing Phigalia ca.1700BC. Also the species of
oak needs to be identified.
snip
>
> Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Franz Gnaedinger
(...) Italo and o8TY, I shall answer your questions later,
especially the ones regarding Laertes and Phigalia.
Odysseus reached Scherie, which, according to Eberhard Zangger,
is an early Troy. The blind bard Demodocus (teacher of people)
sings a lay on the Trojan war he had been taught by the Muse,
the Child of Zeus. The same Muse, however, deprived him of
his eye-sight. He can't see anymore what goes on around him,
while he can see far into the future. He is kind of a prophet,
lending his voice to the decisions of the gods, and thus he
is justly called his name. Having been taught by the Muse
(or even by Apollo? Odysseus asks him) he knows a lot on the
Trojan war, although this one shall happen in remote future,
and as Demodocus is such a gifted singer, owing to the same
Muse, his lay is famous all over the world. Everybody enjoys
it --- apart from Odysseus, who realizes where he is, namely
in an early Troy, and what a lovely place he had destroyed
(or will destroy in the Scherian perspective of time), and
so he "wept like a woman". And then, perhaps fearing that
Demodocus might now more and reveal him as enemy, he tells
his fables, which are parables on the Trojan war. For example
his famous fable of Polyphem: a giant who makes cheese from
the milk he gets from his sheep and goats, and who devours
several Achaeans, whereupon Odysseus blinds him. Everybody
must agree that Polyphem deserves his horrible fate. What
Odysseus's noble audience doesn't know: Polyphem, who
resembles more a wooden hill than a man who eats bread,
is a later Troy; his sheep and goats are foreign ships,
waiting for favorable winds in the Trojan harbor, or passing
the Dardanelles; the milk he gets from his animals are fees
and duties; the Achaeans, unwilling to pay him (not beeing
sheep and goats he can milk) are getting attacked; and the
blinding of Polyphem is the sack and burning down of Ilium,
citadel of Troy. By telling his fable, Odysseus justifies
the war, and in such a convincing way that he has everybody
on his side. He conquers Troy again, being there unrecognized,
once again unrecognized, and while we readers of the Odyssey
are well aware of him we are fooled in another way, as Troy
lies hidden behind names like Scherie, Ogygia, Telepylos,
or Polyphem's cave.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Italo
What would be the significance of a birch in this context?
Heracles brings the white poplar('leukê' or 'acherôïs') from Thesprotia
(also called 'Elaia'!) to Olympia (some 40km to the NW of Phigalia),
while the wild olive(kotinos) is native to Olympia;
"The Eleans are wont to use for the sacrifices to Zeus the wood of the
white poplar and of no other tree, preferring the white poplar, I think,
simply and solely because Heracles brought it into Greece from
Thesprotia. And it is my opinion that when Heracles sacrificed to Zeus
at Olympia he himself burned the thigh bones of the victims upon wood of
the white poplar. Heracles found the white poplar growing on the banks
of the Acheron, the river in Thesprotia, and for this reason Homer calls
it “Acheroid.” [3] So from the first down to the present all rivers have
not been equally suited for the growth of plants and trees. Tamarisks
grow best and in the greatest numbers by the Maeander; the Boeotian
Asopus can produce the tallest reeds; the persea tree flourishes only in
the water of the Nile. So it is no wonder that the white poplar grew
first by the Acheron and the wild olive by the Alpheius, and that the
dark poplar is a nursling of the Celtic land of the Celtic Eridanus."
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.14.2
The other mythical tradition, also mentioned by Pausanias, has the wild
olive(kotinos) brought by the earlier Heracles from Hyperborea;
"..the Dactyls of Ida, who are the same as those called Curetes. They
came from Cretan Ida--Heracles, Paeonaeus, Epimedes, Iasius and Idas.
[7] Heracles, being the eldest, matched his brothers, as a game [at
Olympia], in a running-race, and crowned the winner with a branch of
wild olive, of which they had such a copious supply that they slept on
heaps of its leaves while still green. It is said to have been
introduced into Greece by Heracles from the land of the Hyperboreans,
men living beyond the home of the North Wind."
http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.7.1
Franz Gnaedinger
(...)
How to read the Odyssey, and A BIG SURPRISE, even for me
(beautiful Helen, cause of the Trojan war = tin dioxide
cassiterite, a jewel of an ore)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nausicaa's love, Alcinous's friendship and Arete's gifts for
Odysseus are moving, poignant and amazing when we understand
Scherie as an early Troy.
Shrew, wily, ruseful and resourceful master-schemer Homer
crafted his Odyssey in such a manner that we can read it in
two completely different ways, either like a Trojan gawking
at the Wooden Horse, never suspecting that it might be some-
thing else than it seems to be, or like Odysseus peering out
from the Wooden Horse ... If we read the epic in the former
way, we take Scherie, Ogygia, Telepylos, Polyphem's cave,
etc., for different places, yet when we read the epic in
the latter way we understand them as Troy blended with other
places, thus gaining plenty of information on the Trojan war.
You may for example compare Scherie with Polyphem's cave.
The dwellers of Scherie have salient ships that carry them
swiftly anywhere they wish. This means the Phaeacians were
honorable sailors and traders. The Cyclopes, on the other
hand, have no ships. They symbolize the Anatolians, former
Hittites, whose empire fell in 1204 BC. Troy, once belonging
to the Aegean civilization, became a vasall of Hattusas,
and - following the Polyphem fable - gave up seafaring and
honest trading. Instead, the Trojans asked fees from the
foreign shipowners who camped in the Trojan harbor, waiting
for favorable winds allowing them to sail along the perilous
Dardanelles, and duties from ships passing the Dardanelles.
And if they were not willing to pay they have been, as Homer
puts it more drastically, devoured by Polyphem.
The Myeceneans were in need of TIN, which was required for
casting bronze. Tin came from Afghanistan and from the ore
mountain up the river Danube. The Mycenaean bronze contained
more tin than modern bronze, and the cheapest way to get the
precious metal was by sailing to the Black Sea, passing Troy
--- passing the cave of the formidable monster Polyphem, son
of Poseidon, who also was the founder of pleasant Scherie,
early Troy, member of the Aegean civilization.
And what if beautiful "Helen of the white arms" (Odyssey,
book 22, line 227), cause of the Trojan war, symbolizes
the withe metal tin, more precious than silver and gold,
since being rare and so hard to obtain?
Helen a beautiful woman --- tin dioxide cassiterite a jewel
of an ore.
The palace of Menelaus, husband of Helen, gleams of metals.
Book 4: "... this lofty hall of illustrious Menelaus was lit
by something of the sun's and moon's splendour." Sun and moon
might be gold and silver, their alloy being electrum; but the
could also be copper and tin yielding bronze, by far the most
important metal in the Bronze Age.
Helen of the white arms may well be a symbol of precious tin.
Menelaus is called xanthos, meaning that his hair is yellow,
blonde or auburn, what goes along with the shades of copper.
Hermione, their child, would then symbolize bronze, the alloy
of copper and tin: "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling
golden Aphrodite" (book 4, line 14).
Helen had on one child, Hermione. Menelaus had a second
child with a slave, a son: "late come strong Megapenthes."
The slave woman must stay for tinc, which occured in enslaved
form, namely in mountaincopper (oreichalkos), and her son must
be brass, the alloy of tinc and copper.
Now isn't this all a big surprise? All figures in the Odyssey
are symbols.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
o8TY
> o8TY wrote:
> > "Franz Gnaedinger" <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
> > news:2bf25455.0311...@posting.google.com...
> >
> >>Italo <cuNOca...@home.nl> wrote in message
> >
> > news:<bo0ne0$6kj$1...@news2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>...
> >
> >>>The olive tree also marks the presence of the goddess Athena.
> >>>
[snip]
> > I still think you are looking at the wrong olive, which should not be
the
> > domestic olive but the wild olive brought by Herakles from the north and
> > transplanted at Olumpia. This plant (birch) was later confused with the
> > white poplar, used for the sacrifices to Zeus at Olumpia, and of which a
> > qualified woodcutter who could tell the two plants apart was specially
> > chosen by the Olumpic priests to fetch.
> >
> > As Italo points out an "olive" grew beside an oak in the grove near
> > Phigalia. This needs to be explained in terms of the more ancient
Herakles
> > story, especially when discussing Phigalia ca.1700BC. Also the species
of
> > oak needs to be identified.
>
>
> What would be the significance of a birch in this context?
>
It is the one tree missing from the ancient Greek lexicon, yet it is a
relatively common tree in the north ie Makedonia, Thrake, northern Anatolia.
It is also the third tree of an important Triad - the others being the pine
and oak. While most later myths are concerned with the two latter trees, the
earlier myths telling of journeys to the north must have been concerned with
the birch. The Dorian invasion seems to be the point of departure.
>
> Heracles brings the white poplar('leukê' or 'acherôïs') from Thesprotia
> (also called 'Elaia'!) to Olympia (some 40km to the NW of Phigalia),
> while the wild olive(kotinos) is native to Olympia;
>
> "The Eleans are wont to use for the sacrifices to Zeus the wood of the
> white poplar and of no other tree, preferring the white poplar, I think,
> simply and solely because Heracles brought it into Greece from
> Thesprotia. And it is my opinion that when Heracles sacrificed to Zeus
> at Olympia he himself burned the thigh bones of the victims upon wood of
> the white poplar. Heracles found the white poplar growing on the banks
> of the Acheron, the river in Thesprotia, and for this reason Homer calls
> it “Acheroid.” [3] So from the first down to the present all rivers have
> not been equally suited for the growth of plants and trees. Tamarisks
> grow best and in the greatest numbers by the Maeander; the Boeotian
> Asopus can produce the tallest reeds; the persea tree flourishes only in
> the water of the Nile. So it is no wonder that the white poplar grew
> first by the Acheron and the wild olive by the Alpheius, and that the
> dark poplar is a nursling of the Celtic land of the Celtic Eridanus."
> http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.14.2
>
>
The white poplar - a very common tree in Greece - was used as a substitute
for the precious birch.
> The other mythical tradition, also mentioned by Pausanias, has the wild
> olive(kotinos) brought by the earlier Heracles from Hyperborea;
>
> "..the Dactyls of Ida, who are the same as those called Curetes. They
> came from Cretan Ida--Heracles, Paeonaeus, Epimedes, Iasius and Idas.
> [7] Heracles, being the eldest, matched his brothers, as a game [at
> Olympia], in a running-race, and crowned the winner with a branch of
> wild olive, of which they had such a copious supply that they slept on
> heaps of its leaves while still green. It is said to have been
> introduced into Greece by Heracles from the land of the Hyperboreans,
> men living beyond the home of the North Wind."
> http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.7.1
>
>
The more north one goes the more common becomes the birch.
o8TY
But the colour of native tin ranges from a browny yellow to black. The more
tin in bronze the darker and browner is the bronze. Compare with zinc in
brass, the more zinc the whiter the brass.
I suggest you look up the mineral bornite, if you have not already done so,
which occurs as a natural bronze of tin and copper.
Helen ultimately hung herself from a tree - which tree and what has tin got
to do with that tree.
> The palace of Menelaus, husband of Helen, gleams of metals.
> Book 4: "... this lofty hall of illustrious Menelaus was lit
> by something of the sun's and moon's splendour." Sun and moon
> might be gold and silver, their alloy being electrum; but the
> could also be copper and tin yielding bronze, by far the most
> important metal in the Bronze Age.
>
In the second millenium BC, electrum was amber.
> Helen of the white arms may well be a symbol of precious tin.
> Menelaus is called xanthos, meaning that his hair is yellow,
> blonde or auburn, what goes along with the shades of copper.
> Hermione, their child, would then symbolize bronze, the alloy
> of copper and tin: "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling
> golden Aphrodite" (book 4, line 14).
>
> Helen had on one child, Hermione. Menelaus had a second
> child with a slave, a son: "late come strong Megapenthes."
> The slave woman must stay for tinc, which occured in enslaved
> form, namely in mountaincopper (oreichalkos), and her son must
> be brass, the alloy of tinc and copper.
>
> Now isn't this all a big surprise? All figures in the Odyssey
> are symbols.
>
Not in the least, I dare say. Though I agree that all the characters in the
Odyssey
are symbolic.
Like the griffins (grupas) that fought the Arimaspu for the gold which
"grew" out of the ground, you may be more surprised to discover that this
gold grew under the same tree from which Helen hanged herself, and which
Herakles brought back from the north. Not the olive but the birch.
Same with the golden fleece that hung from a cork oak in the sacred grove of
Ares called Subarin at Kolxis.
What kind of gold grows around birch and oak trees. If the birch and
cork-oak were planted together at Phigalia, and the Arkadians ate the
"acorns" of the cork-oak, did they also eat the gold growth associated with
the birch.
> Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Eric Stevens
>
>"Franz Gnaedinger" <fr...@bluemail.ch> wrote in message
>news:2bf25455.03110...@posting.google.com...
>> fr...@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message
>news:<2bf25455.03110...@posting.google.com>...
>>
>> (...)
>>
--- snip ----.
>
>> The palace of Menelaus, husband of Helen, gleams of metals.
>> Book 4: "... this lofty hall of illustrious Menelaus was lit
>> by something of the sun's and moon's splendour." Sun and moon
>> might be gold and silver, their alloy being electrum; but the
>> could also be copper and tin yielding bronze, by far the most
>> important metal in the Bronze Age.
>>
>
>In the second millenium BC, electrum was amber.
Some years ago, on: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 in
Message-ID: <yNGlOIE==SxUUt38M3...@4ax.com>I wrote:
Begin quote
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This matter of the ancient Greek use of the word 'electron' or
'electrum' for amber is one I have been trying to follow up from a
number of very inadequate sources. The best that I have managed to do
is to establish that Pliny the Elder is generally recognised as the
source of the usage of 'electrum' to mean one part or more of silver
to five parts of gold.
The New Shorter Oxford Engilsh Dictionary gives a meaning of "[Gk
elektron] = [ELEKTRUM]". They also separately equate 'electrum' with
'electron' but add a second definition "2 Amber LME - L18". In other
words 'in English', 'electrum' meant amber between the late middle
ages and the late 18th century.
I know that the NSOED is not the best reference for ancient Greek
usage but they are normally fairly reliable in their etymology.
Nevertheless I can think of various reasons why 'electrum' might have
meant 'amber' too far back in the past to be taken into account for
the purpose of english etymology and that the usage may have somewhere
crept around the side to enter the language in the late middle ages.
All of this is unsettling and I would dearly like to know what is the
evidence that 'electron' ever meant amber to the Greeks.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
End quote
I have never found a satisfactory answer to that question.
This is related to a more difficult question - what in ancient times
was 'oricalc', the meaning of which had been forgotten even by the
time of Solon?
--- snip ---
Eric Stevens
Neville Lindsay
"Eric Stevens" <er...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:h81oqvg2u5kum13i4...@4ax.com...
This is a bit like saying that although the 'j' in Trojan was apparently a
middle ages invention:
"I can think of various reasons why 'j' might have meant 'i' too far back in
the past to be taken into account for the purpose of english etymology and
that the usage may have somewhere crept around the side to enter the
language in the late middle ages."
"All of this is unsettling and I would dearly like to know what is the
evidence that 'j' ever meant 'i' to the Greeks."
Pose a non-question and if an answer is not forthcoming, it is an arguable
proposition, even though it is totally unsupported speculation in the first
place. Yes, the Aliens did build the pyramids 12,000 years ago - prove they
didn't.
NL
Eric Stevens
What I wrote may or may not have been a non-question but your reply
most certainly was a non-answer.
>
>NL
>
>
>> This is related to a more difficult question - what in ancient times
>> was 'oricalc', the meaning of which had been forgotten even by the
>> time of Solon?
>>
>> --- snip ---
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
Eric Stevens
Neville Lindsay
> Eric Stevens
If you don't see the direct parallel (I used your own words for emphasis),
you have the telescope to a blind eye. Bluntly, a false proposition is a
strawman. Not being able to answer a false proposition does not validate the
false proposition.
In other words you have no reason whatsoever to posit amber-electrum from
pre-history any more than I have to posit the letter J from pre-alphabetcy.
Both positions, in the absence of evidence, are figments. I have no evidence
for mine, but perhaps you have for yours, in which case you will want to
quote it.
NL
Eric Stevens
<nev...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
You first have to be able to show my proposition was false.
I'm amenable to discussion but yours does not seem to throw any light
on the subject.
>
>In other words you have no reason whatsoever to posit amber-electrum from
>pre-history any more than I have to posit the letter J from pre-alphabetcy.
Aaah - was that your point? But I don't posit amber = electrum. Others
have done so but I am frankly sceptical.
>Both positions, in the absence of evidence, are figments. I have no evidence
>for mine, but perhaps you have for yours, in which case you will want to
>quote it.
No - I only have opinions - assertions. I have no evidence and, as far
as I can see, neither does anyone else. That was really my point.
Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
Martin Phipps, are you still around? You asked the original
question: Did the Trojan war really happen the way Homer said
it did?
As for the Odyssey, we should ask in the first place what Homer
actually says. I believe that all his figures are symbols, even
Menelaus, Helen, and their lovely daughter Hermione, who stay for
copper, tin, and their alloy bronze. There was no real Menelaus,
no Helen and no Paris, but there might well have been a Spartan
ship returning from the Black Sea, transporting casserite, passing
the Dardanelles, and getting confiscated or seized by the Trojans,
whereupon men(e)laos, a strong and decided warrior people, living
in southwest Peloponnese, joined forces with Hellas in northeast
Greece, built a wooden forteress, one or two kilometers north
or northwest of the Hissarlik (Ilium, citadel of Troy), on the
then shore of a shallow bay. The Greek soldiers staying there
protected the Greek ships heading for and returning from the
Black Sea. A long series of incidents finally escalated into
the Trojan war, which was followed by a deluge that swept away
the Greek camp (Poseidon's revenge for the blinding of his son
Polyphem). MOST IMPORTANT, even crucial for the rise of Greece
was the union of Menelaus + Agamememnon / Achaia / Peloponnese
and of Helen / Hellas / Thessaly / Achilles, a political union,
or alloy, if you like. And it was a most precarious union,
as we are told in the Iliad. Its danger of failing is even
the basic topic of the Iliad!
In Homer's time the unity of Greece was endangered - Messenian
wars; powerful kings rising in Anatolia, new Polyphems, menaces
to the Ionian colonies - and that is why the Iliad and Odyssey
had been written and composed from old bardic material.
Eric, I shall answer your question regarding electrum next time.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
o8TY
Strictly speaking you are right about electrum being a silver-gold alloy for
the simple reason that as it is a Roman word it is therefore subject to
Roman interpretation.
But insofar as electrum derives from the Greek elektron, and the Greek
elektron was amber, then electrum would have originally meant amber. BTW
Pliny seems to have got his info from a Roman settler at Korinthos!
By association. if the Kassiterides were the tin islands, then the island of
Elektra was where amber was obtained. As there was never any gold or silver
on any island of Elektra before the Roman era, but instead there was amber,
it stands to reason that Elektra meant an amber island. Also elektron was so
named because of the static electricity it could discharge, which cannot be
said about the silver-gold alloy.
Why you raised the issue of word meaning for the second millenium CE only
you can tell, but it has nothing to do with my original comment about
elektron being amber in the second millenium BC.
o8TY
Eric Stevens
My primary concern was the meaning in the second millenium BC. I
mentioned the second millenium CE merely to show that the popular
interpretetion of the word electrum/elektron dates from that leter era
and is not necessarily the meaning attributed 2000 (or even 1500 )
years earlier. As for my remark " I would dearly like to know what is
the evidence that 'electron' ever meant amber to the Greeks" that
relates to yet another question which I would like to be able to
settle one way or the the other.
Eric Stevens
Franz Gnaedinger
> (...) MOST IMPORTANT, even crucial for the rise of Greece
> was the union of Menelaus + Agamememnon / Achaia / Peloponnese
> and of Helen / Hellas / Thessaly / Achilles, a political union,
> or alloy, if you like. And it was a most precarious union,
> as we are told in the Iliad. Its danger of failing is even
> the basic topic of the Iliad!
>
> In Homer's time the unity of Greece was endangered - Messenian
> wars; powerful kings rising in Anatolia, new Polyphems, menaces
> to the Ionian colonies - and that is why the Iliad and Odyssey
> had been written and composed from old bardic material.
>
> Eric, I shall answer your question regarding electrum next time.
The most satisfactory explanation of ELECTRUM I came across
was provided by R. Campbell Thompson, an expert on The Epic
of Gilgamish (Clarendon Press Oxford 1930): "Electrum is
a mixture of silver and gold, known to the ancients for its
particular brilliant shiny quality." Then he quotes Pliny:
"one peculiar advantage of electrum is its superior birlliancy
to silver in lamplight." Electrum occurs on a Babylonian tablet
with long lists of metals, "when, after amounts of gold, silver,
copper, lead, bronze, 'living copper', one shekel of elmesu (=
electrum) is mentioned." I like the term living copper, reminds
me of "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling golden Aphrodite."
Homer's poetic circumscriptions of metals were fine for his
time, but they hold no longer in our time, since we know many
more metals, alloys, and regional modifications. Homer knew
COPPER from Cyprus, no cuprite from Cornwall or South Africa.
And he knew tinc only in an enslaved form: tinc blende combined
with (= enslaved by) lead glance, as it occured some 130 km
southeast of Troy. Radioisotropic spectral analyses revealed
that early Greek brass ("late come strong Megapenthes" in Homer)
contains tinc from that mine in the Troas.
AMBER was used for jewelry, and for religious purposes in the
Crimea, where amber disks with incised crosses represented the
sun and supreme sun god. Amber surely came from the Balticum
and was shipped down the river Dnjeper, whose name was Virgin
Snake (perhaps identical with the Hydra fought by Heracles).
In book 1, line 8 of the Odyssey, Homer mentions the oxen of
Helios Hyperion, which I interpret as freight ships of the
Crimea, loaded with gold coming either from the Caucasus
or from the Dnjeper. However, the hypothetical Crimean freight
ship could also have carried amber; or gold, amber, and honey,
for which the Ucraine was also famous, and all three materials
have about the same sunny color (a color belonging to Helios).
As said above, the river Dnjeper was rich in GOLD, and so was
the lower course of the river Danube. Italo or oT80 mentioned
gold under a pair of trees. I could well imagine a rich gold
pocket found somewhere along the river Dnjeper or Danube,
marked by a pair of big trees on the river banks.
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>fr...@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message news:<2bf25455.03110...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
>> (...) MOST IMPORTANT, even crucial for the rise of Greece
>> was the union of Menelaus + Agamememnon / Achaia / Peloponnese
>> and of Helen / Hellas / Thessaly / Achilles, a political union,
>> or alloy, if you like. And it was a most precarious union,
>> as we are told in the Iliad. Its danger of failing is even
>> the basic topic of the Iliad!
>>
>> In Homer's time the unity of Greece was endangered - Messenian
>> wars; powerful kings rising in Anatolia, new Polyphems, menaces
>> to the Ionian colonies - and that is why the Iliad and Odyssey
>> had been written and composed from old bardic material.
>>
>> Eric, I shall answer your question regarding electrum next time.
>
>The most satisfactory explanation of ELECTRUM I came across
>was provided by R. Campbell Thompson, an expert on The Epic
>of Gilgamish (Clarendon Press Oxford 1930): "Electrum is
>a mixture of silver and gold, known to the ancients for its
>particular brilliant shiny quality." Then he quotes Pliny: ...
I was about to point out that Pliny was the earliest I knew who used
that specific definition, but then you said ...
>"one peculiar advantage of electrum is its superior birlliancy
>to silver in lamplight." Electrum occurs on a Babylonian tablet
>with long lists of metals, "when, after amounts of gold, silver,
>copper, lead, bronze, 'living copper', one shekel of elmesu (=
>electrum) is mentioned.
How was the equivalence identified? It may well be right, but where is
the evidence?
>" I like the term living copper, reminds
>me of "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling golden Aphrodite."
>
>Homer's poetic circumscriptions of metals were fine for his
>time, but they hold no longer in our time, since we know many
>more metals, alloys, and regional modifications.
But then, the ancients, including Homer, recognised almost naturally
occurring alloys by their own special names. We can no longer always
identify the particular alloys by their names or match the names to
alloys.
>Homer knew
>COPPER from Cyprus, no cuprite from Cornwall or South Africa.
>And he knew tinc only in an enslaved form: tinc blende combined
>with (= enslaved by) lead glance, as it occured some 130 km
>southeast of Troy. Radioisotropic spectral analyses revealed
>that early Greek brass ("late come strong Megapenthes" in Homer)
>contains tinc from that mine in the Troas.
>
>AMBER was used for jewelry, and for religious purposes in the
>Crimea, where amber disks with incised crosses represented the
>sun and supreme sun god. Amber surely came from the Balticum
Umm - dare I mention Spanuth in your presence? :-) - Spanuth makes a
case, which I have since confirmed at least in part, for saying that
the very earliest known amber came from the Frisian coast and not the
Baltic.
> ... and was shipped down the river Dnjeper, whose name was Virgin
>Snake (perhaps identical with the Hydra fought by Heracles).
>In book 1, line 8 of the Odyssey, Homer mentions the oxen of
>Helios Hyperion, which I interpret as freight ships of the
>Crimea, loaded with gold coming either from the Caucasus
>or from the Dnjeper. However, the hypothetical Crimean freight
>ship could also have carried amber; or gold, amber, and honey,
>for which the Ucraine was also famous, and all three materials
>have about the same sunny color (a color belonging to Helios).
Yes, I agree that is a problem. What were they really talking about?
>
>As said above, the river Dnjeper was rich in GOLD, and so was
>the lower course of the river Danube. Italo or oT80 mentioned
>gold under a pair of trees. I could well imagine a rich gold
>pocket found somewhere along the river Dnjeper or Danube,
>marked by a pair of big trees on the river banks.
>
>Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Eric Stevens
o8TY
Theophratsus - On Stones - 3rd c BC discusses several types of amber
(elektron"), especially that from Liguria in NW Italy, which lies at the
upstream end of the Po. At the downstream end lay the island of Elektra.
This last was where Phaithon crashed and burned in his father's sun-chariot,
whose sisters tears turned into amber. Ovid dates Phaithon to the same
period as Epaphus ruling in Egypt ca.1600BC.
Italo
The white poplar is called 'white' because of its leaves, not because of
the bark, right? Did they share some useful function or was it just
confusion about the names.
Some mushroom species seem to prefer growing in birchwoods but not sure
if that applies to the poplar.
>
>>The other mythical tradition, also mentioned by Pausanias, has the wild
>>olive(kotinos) brought by the earlier Heracles from Hyperborea;
>>
>>"..the Dactyls of Ida, who are the same as those called Curetes. They
>>came from Cretan Ida--Heracles, Paeonaeus, Epimedes, Iasius and Idas.
>>[7] Heracles, being the eldest, matched his brothers, as a game [at
>>Olympia], in a running-race, and crowned the winner with a branch of
>>wild olive, of which they had such a copious supply that they slept on
>>heaps of its leaves while still green. It is said to have been
>>introduced into Greece by Heracles from the land of the Hyperboreans,
>>men living beyond the home of the North Wind."
>>http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.7.1
>>
>>
>
>
> The more north one goes the more common becomes the birch.
And the wild olive doesn't grow in northern regions.
What would be the reason that the birch was confused or substituted with
the (wild-)olive? Is 'elaios' related to a word meaning 'bright' or
'shining' [as 'Hellas' is sometimes explained]?
>
Italo
Oops, only now I notice that both the white poplar and the olive tree
*do* have a white bark when they're young.
Chris Camfield
>er than a fruitcake. Well, I pass
>his compliment over to Homer, whose Odyssey is a cake rich in fruit,
>and nuts galore, sweet hazels and bitter almonds.
Well, I love fruitcake myself! But considering the poetic tradition and the
cultural conditions in which the Iliad and Odyssey were composed, I find your
theories EXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEMELY implausible. How's that? :-)
Chris
Franz Gnaedinger
> The most satisfactory explanation of ELECTRUM I came across
> was provided by R. Campbell Thompson, an expert on The Epic
> of Gilgamish (Clarendon Press Oxford 1930): "Electrum is
> a mixture of silver and gold, known to the ancients for its
> particular brilliant shiny quality." Then he quotes Pliny:
> "one peculiar advantage of electrum is its superior birlliancy
> to silver in lamplight." Electrum occurs on a Babylonian tablet
> with long lists of metals, "when, after amounts of gold, silver,
> copper, lead, bronze, 'living copper', one shekel of elmesu (=
> electrum) is mentioned." I like the term living copper, reminds
> me of "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling golden Aphrodite."
Egyptian electrum was gold with a little silver, called neb hedj,
white gold. It was hammered into foils and applied to obelisks -
making them flash in the sunlight -, and to wood. In the Gilgamesh
epic, Ishtar refers to the Egyptian custom of overlaying wood
with electrum. On a tablet we read: "I will make shine the light
of ilmesu (electrum) in the face of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria."
We may assume that wooden panels covered with electrum foil
reflecting oil lamps and torches along the walls brightened up
a room or a hall. Odyssey, book 4: "Telemachus and his friend
opened their eyes in wonder at all they saw as they passed
through the king's palace. It seemed to them that this lofty
hall of illustrious Menelaus was lit by something of the sun's
or the moon's splendour." In my opinion, sun and moon have here
a double meaning: electrum foil behind the lamps and torches
along the walls, brightening a lofty, spacious, large hall -
sun and moon referring to gold and silver and their alloy. On
the other hand, Menelaus stays for copper, his wife Helen for
tin, and now sun and moon hint at an even more important pair
of metals, whose alloy is bronze, personified by "that lovely
girl Hermione, resembling golden Aphrodite."
Electrum has the color of pale yellow amber. Greek 'aelektor'
means shining, brillant; 'ho aelektor' means the glistening
sun. Both materials - alloy and resin - have a similar color,
and as Crimean amber disks in fact symbolized the sun and
the sun god, the foil applied to wood and the resin used for
jewelry might have been called - and in fact were called,
so much I concede to Eric and o8TY - by the same name.
In the Odyssey, however, electrum plays a minor role. The
chief parts are given to copper, tin, and their alloy bronze,
personified by Menelaus, Helen, and their daughter Hermione
respectively.
Helen a beautiful woman, cassiterie a jewel of an ore ...
The most beautiful crystals I found come from the ore mountain
between Leizig and Prague, so the ore in question might also
have come from there (and Helen's name might have been Helena
Dubcek ;-)
Helen of the white arms, lovely cheeks, lovely hair, with her
yarn and spindle, may refer to several forms and sizes of ingots,
to their shimmering, and to tin wire coiled up on spools.
Menelaus stays for copper -- also for the copper contained in
bronze weapons: "Menelaus of the loud war-cry." Helen stays
for tin -- also for the tin contained in bronze needles: the
beautiful robes Helen wove with her own hands.
These are long and richly decorated robes "glittering like
stars," which may again refer to cassiterite. Picture a black
freight ship loaded with glittering ore and shimmering ingots
of the precious metal, coming from the Black Sea, gliding along
the Dardanelles, nearing Troy ...
Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
zolota
> fr...@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message
news:<2bf25455.03110...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > The most satisfactory explanation of ELECTRUM I came across
> > was provided by R. Campbell Thompson, an expert on The Epic
> > of Gilgamish (Clarendon Press Oxford 1930): "Electrum is
> > a mixture of silver and gold, known to the ancients for its
> > particular brilliant shiny quality." Then he quotes Pliny:
> > "one peculiar advantage of electrum is its superior birlliancy
> > to silver in lamplight." Electrum occurs on a Babylonian tablet
> > with long lists of metals, "when, after amounts of gold, silver,
> > copper, lead, bronze, 'living copper', one shekel of elmesu (=
> > electrum) is mentioned." I like the term living copper, reminds
> > me of "that lovely girl Hermione, resembling golden Aphrodite."
>
> Egyptian electrum was gold with a little silver, called neb hedj,
> white gold. It was hammered into foils and applied to obelisks -
> making them flash in the sunlight -, and to wood.
Why is it that there are no internet references to "neb hedj" or "ilmesu"?
One would think they'd be there.
For what it's worth electrum from the first use of the word to modern
metallurgy has meant a material that is predominantly silver but which
contains gold. A bar of precious metal must be a minimum percentage of gold
otherwise it's electrum. A gold refiner will not accept a low grade bar, 25%
IIRC, or 33% if not, and the bar must go to a silver refinery. For the
ancient Greeks it was a case of what you got at the end of the exercise.
Silver was normally produced in fairly high purity from galena (lead/Pb)
ores. A trick for recovering gold was to smelt it with silver-lead ores and
the result was electrum. Sometimes electrum is found naturally but
chemically it decomposes in acidic waters. "gold nuggets" are always better
than about 60% gold, otherwise they dissolve in the creek.
I'm at a loss here as to why the Egyptians did not just use silver mirrors,
etc. Can you say why? Was it just the right gold-silver sheen? Silver
mirrors were used elsewhere and elsewhen, still are in fact.
If it was not predominantly gold and silver it was not electrum. Perhaps a
translational error?
>
> Helen a beautiful woman, cassiterie a jewel of an ore ...
> The most beautiful crystals I found come from the ore mountain
> between Leizig and Prague, so the ore in question might also
> have come from there (and Helen's name might have been Helena
> Dubcek ;-)
>
> Helen of the white arms, lovely cheeks, lovely hair, with her
> yarn and spindle, may refer to several forms and sizes of ingots,
> to their shimmering, and to tin wire coiled up on spools.
>
> Menelaus stays for copper -- also for the copper contained in
> bronze weapons: "Menelaus of the loud war-cry." Helen stays
> for tin -- also for the tin contained in bronze needles: the
> beautiful robes Helen wove with her own hands.
>
> These are long and richly decorated robes "glittering like
> stars," which may again refer to cassiterite. Picture a black
> freight ship loaded with glittering ore and shimmering ingots
> of the precious metal, coming from the Black Sea, gliding along
> the Dardanelles, nearing Troy ...
>
>
> Regards Franz Gnaedinger www.seshat.ch
Z
o8TY
Hence white-limbed (white-armed) Hera. Her tree on Samos was called logw
(willow sic), but this also seems to have been another name for the
silver-birch, since its twigs (like the willow) were used for ritual weaving
and plaiting and whipping.
> > Did they share some useful function or was it just
> > confusion about the names.
> > Some mushroom species seem to prefer growing in birchwoods but not sure
> > if that applies to the poplar.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> The other mythical tradition, also mentioned by Pausanias, has the
wild
> >>> olive(kotinos) brought by the earlier Heracles from Hyperborea;
> >>>
> >>> "..the Dactyls of Ida, who are the same as those called Curetes. They
> >>> came from Cretan Ida--Heracles, Paeonaeus, Epimedes, Iasius and Idas.
> >>> [7] Heracles, being the eldest, matched his brothers, as a game [at
> >>> Olympia], in a running-race, and crowned the winner with a branch of
> >>> wild olive, of which they had such a copious supply that they slept on
> >>> heaps of its leaves while still green. It is said to have been
> >>> introduced into Greece by Heracles from the land of the Hyperboreans,
> >>> men living beyond the home of the North Wind."
> >>> http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Paus.+5.7.1
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> The more north one goes the more common becomes the birch.
> >
> >
> > And the wild olive doesn't grow in northern regions.
> >
> > What would be the reason that the birch was confused or substituted with
> > the (wild-)olive? Is 'elaios' related to a word meaning 'bright' or
> > 'shining' [as 'Hellas' is sometimes explained]?
> >
I have no idea what caused the confusion but a reading of Theophrastus will
show that things were highly confused by his time. In telling of Aphrodite
amongst the Skuthians, Herodotus alludes to the birch as the tree philura
(lime-tree sic). [4.67]
>
My news-server seems to be missing posts from this thread.
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>fr...@bluemail.ch (Franz Gnaedinger) wrote in message news:<2bf25455.03110...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
>> (...) MOST IMPORTANT, even crucial for the rise of Greece
>> was the union of Menelaus + Agamememnon / Achaia / Peloponnese
>> and of Helen / Hellas / Thessaly / Achilles, a political union,
>> or alloy, if you like. And it was a most precarious union,
>> as we are told in the Iliad. Its danger of failing is even
>> the basic topic of the Iliad!
>>
>> In Homer's time the unity of Greece was endangered - Messenian
>> wars; powerful kings rising in Anatolia, new Polyphems, menaces
>> to the Ionian colonies - and that is why the Iliad and Odyssey
>> had been written and composed from old bardic material.
>>
>> Eric, I shall answer your question regarding electrum next time.
>
>The most satisfactory explanation of ELECTRUM I came across
>was provided by R. Campbell Thompson, an expert on The Epic
>of Gilgamish (Clarendon Press Oxford 1930): "Electrum is
>a mixture of silver and gold, known to the ancients for its
>particular brilliant shiny quality." Then he quotes Pliny:
>"one peculiar advantage of electrum is its superior birlliancy
>to silver in lamplight." Electrum occurs on a Babylonian tablet
>with long lists of metals, "when, after amounts of gold, silver,
>copper, lead, bronze, 'living copper', one shekel of elmesu (=
>electrum) is mentioned."
This illustrates one of the points I was trying to make. It is known
that Pliny referred to the mixture of silver and gold as electrum.
More than 700 years (at least) earlier the Babylonians knew of the
alloy and called it elmesu. You may be correct in your identification
of elmes= electrum but then that further confuses the issue if, as is
commonly claimed, many centuries before Pliny the greeks used
'electrum' or 'electron' to describe amber. Such a change in meaning
implies either a vast discontinuity somewhere in the history or,
possibly, 'electrum' or 'electron' was never used by the ancient
greeks to describe amber. In that case, what word did the ancient
greeks use to describe amber?
Eric Stevens
Philip Deitiker
news:6hu0rvs1og4d4drt0...@4ax.com:
I am curious at to what frank is trying to accomplish with his
reinterpretations. For example domesticated plants can undergo reversion
(mosaicism) from the domesticated to wild state via somatic cell
mutations during developement, this places the olive tree anywhere from
2000 B.C. on.
Else he really kooks up myth to say well, this myth just aint so, its
kookier than the way the myth says it happened.
What is the point? None really, but this is sort of cryptocreationist
thinking, rather that use facts to clarify myth, frank seems to want to
invent more myth to clarify myth. I don't want to piss all over his
artful thinking, but at some point I would hope he would at least step
out of the fairy-land and wishful interpretations and grab on some straw
of fact or archeology to provide support for his claim. Historical and
religious documents from by-gone eras in which the methods of
documentation are to say the least, generously imbelished with deities
and supernatural beings, does not lend itself to well to scientific
thinking in the modern context. Given the fact these stories are used the
exemplify the power of god(s) one can take some more recent examples to
note how the stories are transformed and exaggerated to emphasize a
religious or moral point, at which point the historical meaning goes
a'dois.
zolota
>
> This illustrates one of the points I was trying to make. It is known
> that Pliny referred to the mixture of silver and gold as electrum.
> More than 700 years (at least) earlier the Babylonians knew of the
> alloy and called it elmesu. You may be correct in your identification
> of elmes= electrum but then that further confuses the issue if, as is
> commonly claimed, many centuries before Pliny the greeks used
> 'electrum' or 'electron' to describe amber. Such a change in meaning
> implies either a vast discontinuity somewhere in the history or,
> possibly, 'electrum' or 'electron' was never used by the ancient
> greeks to describe amber. In that case, what word did the ancient
> greeks use to describe amber?
Greek word for amber = elektron
greek silver coin = elektrum
Z
Eric Stevens
wrote:
I don't want a mere assertion. What can you tell me that supports that
claim?
Eric Stevens
zolota
A greek dictionary.
Z
Horace LaBadie
"zolota" <zol...@REMOVEshaw.ca> wrote:
elektron is the Greek for both amber and the gold-silver alloy, related
to or derived from elektor, the beaming sun. elektris is the Moon.
electrum is the Latin version.
What's the big deal? Words commonly have multiple definitions. The
English word amber has several definitions, including:
ambergris
spermaceti
the fossilized resin
the gold-silver alloy, and others.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0
057%3Aentry%3D%2346823
HWL
Eric Stevens
wrote:
Might be OK if it gave a good indication of the ancient etymology.
Does yours?
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
While that is an authority, it certainly isn't the ultimate authority.
The problem is akin to "send thre and fourpencem we are going to a
dance". That the particular meaning has been passed down a chain of
scholars does not necessarily mean that it has not been changed or
corrupted on the way. Loss of the knowledge of the original meaning of
the word, the nature of the material being described or its origing or
method of manufacture can play havoc down the chain.
You quoted the fact that the english word 'amber' has several meanings
but according to the NSOED 'ambergris' entered the english language in
late middle english. At the same time 'ambergris' (or 'amber-grease'
etc) was being used for grey amber as distinct from yellow amber.
None of the more recent meanings of a word are of much help when
trying to understand exactly what it wasmeant when the term was used
by the ancients. Confusion and uncertainty is only eliminated by a
contemporary explanation of (for example) where a material was found
or how a material was manufactured. I have so far found nothing which
so points to the ancient Greek use of the word 'electron' or
'electrum' for amber. But then, I'm not a clasical scholar.
Eric Stevens
zolota
If you are seriously interested in etymology you would search it yourself
because there is no way that you can believe an internet post as gospel at
the best of times. I merely tried to answer your question with a "two
liner". I stand on my answer, it's up to you to prove me wrong. Your
question seems ludicrous given that you asked it in the first place. The
Romans, as in Pliny, translated amber as electrum. But that word came down
to us in modern Geological and Meturalurgical terms to mean a gold-silver
alloy where silver dominates, not as atomic theory. Electron as a derivative
of amber is taught in the good Electrical Engineering schools. Are the words
related? Could be, but that was not in your original question which
specifically asked, "what word did the ancient greeks use to describe amber.
They wrote elektron!
Bye the way, who here dislikes the use of the hard C to mean a K as it is
used in some languages? German and Russian give my homeland as Kanada which
makes perfect sense.
Z