When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it 3150 BC (+/-50 years) ?
Saggiga
?
I found infos at :
http://www.magusbooks.com/main/newsletter/7.2/cat4.htm
Uriel's Machine: The Prehistoric Technology that Survived the Flood
By Christopher Knight Et. Al.
"Modern scientific investigations show that Earth has been hit many
times by objects such as comets and meteorites. Laboratory work on
comet impact effects demonstrates that comets could cause tidal waves
to exceed three miles tall and near 400 miles per hour. In the last
10,000 years, there have been two impacts of such proportion: a
seven-fold impact into all the world's oceans around 7640 B.C., and a
single impact into the Mediterranean Sea about 3150 B.C., the time of
Noah's Flood. "
http://www22.ocn.ne.jp/~p-inpaku/flood/
"Belfast oak tree ring chronology peaks about 3150 BC, suggesting
major climate event."
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari3.htm
"What happened 3100 BC, maybe right in 3114 BC? That's the year 0 in
Mayan calendar. "
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari3.htm
"Compare Alexander Tollmann's hypothetical bolide, a hypothesis that
one or several bolides (meteors or comets) struck the Earth at 7640
BCE (+/-200), with a much smaller one at 3150 BCE (+/-20) causing the
flooding of myth. "
Martyn Harrison
(Saggiga) said:
>When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it in 3.150 BC (+/- 50 years)
>?
>
>I found infos at :
>
>http://www.magusbooks.com/main/newsletter/7.2/cat4.htm
>Uriel's Machine: The Prehistoric Technology that Survived the Flood
>By Christopher Knight Et. Al.
This book is a work of fiction intended to sell large numbers of books on the
strength of a more interesting and exciting version of reality, similar to von
Daniken and Hancock.
>http://www22.ocn.ne.jp/~p-inpaku/flood/
>"Belfast oak tree ring chronology peaks about 3150 BC, suggesting
>major climate event."
This website is also fiction, the author is trying to sell you the idea that
the earth changes shape in some bizarre fashion that would, I think, lead to
the surface of the planet melting due to the energies involved, so I doubt they
are correct about that.
They're also a fan of the sensationalist claims brigade:
http://www22.ocn.ne.jp/~p-inpaku/indexe.htm
>http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari3.htm
>"What happened 3100 BC, maybe right in 3114 BC? That's the year 0 in
>Mayan calendar. "
This website author has a quite different theory, he wants there to have been a
global bombardment of large meteors 5000 years ago.
>http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari3.htm
>"Compare Alexander Tollmann's hypothetical bolide, a hypothesis that
>one or several bolides (meteors or comets) struck the Earth at 7640
>BCE (+/-200), with a much smaller one at 3150 BCE (+/-20) causing the
>flooding of myth. "
Same webpage, it's not particularly new or original, there are all sorts of
theories which resemble this particular one and it's not all that easy to
reject or confirm much of it, suffice to say that a global event would leave
conspicuous evidence which could be directly observed rather than inferring the
supposed event(s) from the concurrent existence of ancient temples that, when
you're talking of dates "about five thousand years ago" all seem to be of
similar dates (in much the same way as you could say the Viking age is
simultaneous with the invention of the modern computer, given that they are
both in the same thousand year period.)
To return to your original question;
>When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it in 3.150 BC (+/- 50 years)
>?
Sumerians lived in Mesopotamia, literally the land between the rivers (Tigris
and Euphrates.) Both rivers have their water from the mountains surrounding the
region and these mountain ranges experience similar conditions. Therefore, if
there has been prolonged heavy rainfall or a melt of the ice caps in either
river source, this is probably also happening to the other river, therefore
it's quite reasonable (and the record shows) that flooding was something that
happened from time to time quite normally.
Therefore, the flood which inspired the story in the Epic does not need
explanation, as there would already be noteworthy floods without needing any
special events to cause them.
The earliest account of the specific flood event is not known, but there are
copies and these start off in Sumerian language (as I recall) and talk about a
river flood. Later accounts in other languages adopted later on, talk about the
same flood but emphasis it more, e.g. in the Bible the flood covers the whole
world. Since there are elements in the story that quite clearly show the story
is the same one being retold (I've got a partial list of similarities
somewhere) there's no need to look further than Mesopotamia for the source (and
the Israelites were taken in bondage to Mesopotamia - by the waters of Babylon
and all that so we don't have any mysteries about where they learned this
tale).
This is probably just as well because there's definitely no archaeological
evidence for a global flood - and there would be huge evidence.
In a similar sense, the "flood of biblical proportions" much beloved of the
sort of person who writes popular books trying to make out there was one, loses
a lot of the appeal once you don't need it to be supernatural. So I'd say the
answers were "I expect someone has a date for a suitable large scale flood
which probably has been identified in Mesopotamia" and "no".
HTH
Doug Weller
> When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it in 3.150 BC (+/- 50 years)
> ?
>
> I found infos at :
>
> http://www.magusbooks.com/main/newsletter/7.2/cat4.htm
> Uriel's Machine: The Prehistoric Technology that Survived the Flood
> By Christopher Knight Et. Al.
> "Modern scientific investigations show that Earth has been hit many
> times by objects such as comets and meteorites. Laboratory work on
> comet impact effects demonstrates that comets could cause tidal waves
> to exceed three miles tall and near 400 miles per hour. In the last
> 10,000 years, there have been two impacts of such proportion: a
> seven-fold impact into all the world's oceans around 7640 B.C., and a
> single impact into the Mediterranean Sea about 3150 B.C., the time of
> Noah's Flood. "
This is a kook book, which has been discussed before. Search Google groups.
[SNIP]
Doug
Saggiga
I agree that Uriel's Machine book is science-fiction.
Anyway I am certain the flood happened around 3.150 BC and I am
desperately looking for serious proves !
Doug Weller <dwe...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a1vgc0k66fw5$.oqebmsxd...@40tude.net>...
Martyn Harrison
read and study documents that confirm your preconception and ignore those that
don't. If you were initially correct, this might not be all that bad a thing,
but if you started in error, this could easily reinforce that error.
It should be a particular warning sign to you, that most of the resources you
have found (which support your preconception), appear to be on the fringes of
actual knowledge, and include other material that is patently wrong.
Apparently on date 17 Jun 2004 04:01:35 -0700, sag_gig...@yahoo.de
Saggiga
> This is a fairly poor strategy for finding out things, because you will tend to
> read and study documents that confirm your preconception and ignore those that
> don't. If you were initially correct, this might not be all that bad a thing,
> but if you started in error, this could easily reinforce that error.
>
> It should be a particular warning sign to you, that most of the resources you
> have found (which support your preconception), appear to be on the fringes of
> actual knowledge, and include other material that is patently wrong.
Sorry, but I dont rely only on that. There is also begining of Maya
Calendar, begining of Egyptian Dynasties, of Chinese civilisation
around 3.000 BC.
Thats more than one coincidence, no ? There are numerous geological
datas proving that catastrophy happened.
Doug Weller
[SNIP]>
> Sorry, but I dont rely only on that. There is also begining of Maya
> Calendar, begining of Egyptian Dynasties, of Chinese civilisation
> around 3.000 BC.
> Thats more than one coincidence, no ? There are numerous geological
> datas proving that catastrophy happened.
How do you date the start of Chinese civilization to that?
There is no archaeological or geological evidence in Egypt that I know of
for a huge flood. That was not a time of discontinuity but of development
of Egypitan civilization. I'm not clear why a catastrophe would result in
the first dynasties, although the dates would match within a couple of
centuries. But the move from pre-dynastic to Dynastic Egypt was a 'gradual'
one, and I don't see a huge shift from Naqada III to Dynasty 0, just a
logical progression given what was happening.
[SNIP]
Doug
R.Schenck
[top posting corrected]
why are you certain it happened then? why is the date so specific too?
R.Schenck
> Martyn Harrison <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message
> news:<87v2d0lb3eusuf239...@4ax.com>...
>> This is a fairly poor strategy for finding out things, because you
>> will tend to read and study documents that confirm your preconception
>> and ignore those that don't. If you were initially correct, this
>> might not be all that bad a thing, but if you started in error, this
>> could easily reinforce that error.
>>
>> It should be a particular warning sign to you, that most of the
>> resources you have found (which support your preconception), appear
>> to be on the fringes of actual knowledge, and include other material
>> that is patently wrong.
>
> Sorry, but I dont rely only on that. There is also begining of Maya
> Calendar, begining of Egyptian Dynasties, of Chinese civilisation
> around 3.000 BC.
> Thats more than one coincidence, no ? There are numerous geological
> datas proving that catastrophy happened.
{snip bottom post}
Evidence for a global flood? Sorry, there most certainly isn't any. What
were you thinking of as being evidence tho?
Seppo Renfors
Saggiga wrote:
>
> When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it in 3.150 BC (+/- 50 years)
> ?
>
> I found infos at :
>
> http://www.magusbooks.com/main/newsletter/7.2/cat4.htm
> Uriel's Machine: The Prehistoric Technology that Survived the Flood
> By Christopher Knight Et. Al.
> "Modern scientific investigations show that Earth has been hit many
> times by objects such as comets and meteorites. Laboratory work on
> comet impact effects demonstrates that comets could cause tidal waves
> to exceed three miles tall and near 400 miles per hour. In the last
> 10,000 years, there have been two impacts of such proportion: a
> seven-fold impact into all the world's oceans around 7640 B.C., and a
> single impact into the Mediterranean Sea about 3150 B.C., the time of
> Noah's Flood. "
Just remember "Noah's Flood" is but ONE of many flood myths. However
there is a lot pointing to a particular period of being very wet at
around 10,000 -> 9000 BP.
http://www.acacus.it/eng/ricter_geoarc0_completa.htm
"We can therefore say that they were formed by meteoric water,
indicating intense monsoon rains in the central Sahara at the
beginning of the Holocene."
> http://www22.ocn.ne.jp/~p-inpaku/flood/
> "Belfast oak tree ring chronology peaks about 3150 BC, suggesting
> major climate event."
HUH??? What the hell does that mean? How can tree rings "peak"? There
is one per year (well two actually....) and that is so every year....
you will NEVER get a variation and therefor they cannot "peak" (or
even stare)!
[..]
--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Martyn Harrison
(Saggiga) said:
>Martyn Harrison <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message news:<87v2d0lb3eusuf239...@4ax.com>...
>>
>> It should be a particular warning sign to you, that most of the resources you
>> have found (which support your preconception), appear to be on the fringes of
>> actual knowledge, and include other material that is patently wrong.
>
>Sorry, but I dont rely only on that. There is also begining of Maya
>Calendar, begining of Egyptian Dynasties, of Chinese civilisation
>around 3.000 BC.
>Thats more than one coincidence, no ? There are numerous geological
>datas proving that catastrophy happened.
Well, my understanding is that two fairly profound floods of the Euphrates
river left clay deposits in 2900 BCE and 2600 BCE, these are very much prime
candidates for the source of the Noah flood story via Gilgamesh / Sumerian.
Floods in river valleys aren't all that rare for fairly obvious reasons, the
Nile *normally* floods.
When you talk about "that catastrophe", what exactly are you referring to?
Noah's flood?
ELurio
> seven-fold impact into all the world's oceans around 7640 B.C., and a
> single impact into the Mediterranean Sea about 3150 B.C., the time of
There was no impact in 7640 BC. What happened was that the last bits of the
Larentide Ice Cap in North America broke apart and slid into the Atlantic ocean
temporarily stopping the Gulf stream in it's tracks and cracking open the
isthmus connecting Europe with Asia at the Bosphorus and flooding the Black sea
bason due to the extra pressure from all that extra water.
eric l.
Seppo Renfors
Psssttt..... it would have nil effect on the Gulf stream - in fact it
would most likely cause a cold snap if it did what you suggest.
"Stopping the Gulf stream" doesn't cause a "dam" effect either, in
case that is what you intended.
Daryl Krupa
> << > 10,000 years, there have been two impacts of such proportion: a
> > seven-fold impact into all the world's oceans around 7640 B.C., and a
> > single impact into the Mediterranean Sea about 3150 B.C., the time of
> > Noah's Flood. " >><BR><BR>
>
> There was no impact in 7640 BC.
Date was 6450 BCE for what is being talked about below.
> What happened was that
> the last bits of the
> Larentide Ice Cap
"Laurentide Ice Sheet", for those who want to search for more info ...
> in North America broke apart and slid into the Atlantic ocean
Tyrrell Sea, the forerunner of Hudson Bay, actually ...
http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstracts/ClarkePaleohydraulicsDuring.html
> temporarily stopping the Gulf stream in it's tracks and cracking
> open the isthmus connecting Europe with Asia at the Bosphorus
> and flooding the Black sea bason due to the extra pressure from
> all that extra water.
That was supposed to be 5500 BCE. But it didn't happen.
There already was an open channel through the Bosphorus.
You've been had.
http://lava.tamu.edu/courses/geol101/herbert/docs/BlackSeaFloodCritique.pdf
Daryl Krupa
Saggiga
> When did the sumerian flood happen ? Was it in 3.150 BC (+/- 50 years)
> ?
also interesting other infos :
http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnellyr/3000bc.html
"
3150 BC: Turkey; Lake Van Oscillation
Abrupt change in sedimentation rate of Lake Van in Turkey indicative
of rapid climatic fluctuation at (varve) dates of 5200 BP (3150 BC)
(Palaeo, 122 (1996) p 107)
3150 BC: Greenland; Camp Century, Greenland
Camp Century ice core acidity peak 3150 BC
3113 BC: Mexico; Mayan recreation
Last Mayan date of recreation of the world following The Flood , Aug
12, 3113 BC.
"
etc
Daryl Krupa
Also this, for an earlier flood trigger:
http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstracts/PerkinsOnceDuring.html
"When the sheet's mass of ice suddenly gave way, at least 163,000 km3
of water (about 30 percent more water than is contained in all of the
world's lakes today) spilled northward through Hudson Bay into the
North Atlantic.
...
In addition to its effect on Earth's climate, the meltwater surge
would have raised global sea levels by about 0.5 m over a year or so.
Although that may not sound like much, Teller notes that this jump
would have been superimposed on sea levels that were already gradually
rising in response to the melting of ice sheets elsewhere.
Rising sea levels are particularly problematic where seashores are
nearly flat.
For example, many areas just offshore of today's continents (the
so-called continental shelves) have a slope of about 1 in 2,000.
In these places, says Teller, for every 0.5-m rise in sea level,
the shoreline would move 1 km inland. On the almost-level floor of
the Persian Gulf (which is no lower than 100 meters below current
sea level and has a slope of about 1 in 20,000) the shoreline would
move about 10 km."
"The Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, which now meet the Persian Gulf
at the Iraqi shoreline, then flowed another 1,000 km across the flat,
dry basin before they reached the sea.
Even modest changes in sea level from the final drainage of Lake
Agassiz half a world away would have forced people who lived beside
those rivers to flee their flooded lands.
Teller suggests that such large-scale inundations from a half-meter
rise in sea level over about a year could have been the source of
the stories of massive floods recorded in Babylonian history and
the Bible."
Daryl Krupa
Martyn Harrison
Krupa) said:
> Also this, for an earlier flood trigger:
>
>http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstracts/PerkinsOnceDuring.html
>
>Teller suggests that such large-scale inundations from a half-meter
>rise in sea level over about a year could have been the source of
>the stories of massive floods recorded in Babylonian history and
>the Bible."
This seems rather too early to have been remembered inside any reasonable
timescale - although there would certainly have been people alive at the time.
Daryl Krupa
Agreed, but the later candidates for a flood myth are
all river floods, and of a much smaller magnitude.
Still, a concurrent Mesopotamian flood is my preferred candidate
for the stimulus for what eventually became the Noachian Flood myth.
Daryl Krupa
Daryl Krupa
> Calendar, begining of Egyptian Dynasties, of Chinese civilisation
> around 3.000 BC.
> Thats more than one coincidence, no ? There are numerous geological
> datas proving that catastrophy happened.
Have a look at this image:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sgg/images/barbados.gif
There you will see the _end_ of a catastrophe at that time.
After as much glacial ice as was going to melt away had done so,
global ("eustatic") sea level rise slowed, river deltas
and floodplains stabilised, and irrigated agriculture became
less chancy. Climate stabilised, too.
What you are seeing is a global coincidence of sea level.
Daryl Krupa
Saggiga
Hello Daryl,
Could you be more precise and clear ?
Which dates do you give for the Mesopotamian flood ?
Do you have geological evidences ?
Do you think it was a global flood ?
What about the chinese or mayan myths about a flood ? do they talk
about the same flood ?
Which catastrophies do you know about which happened in the past and
affected humans ?
Thanks in advance !
Daryl Krupa
> icyc...@yahoo.com (Daryl Krupa) wrote in message news:<c70365ef.04062...@posting.google.com>...
> > Martyn Harrison <nos...@spammers.of.the.world.unite> wrote in message news:<sr1pd0954a8t9tsk0...@4ax.com>...
> > > Apparently on date 25 Jun 2004 01:18:16 -0700, icyc...@yahoo.com (Daryl
> > > Krupa) said:
> > >
> > > > Also this, for an earlier flood trigger:
> > > >
> > > >http://cgrg.geog.uvic.ca/abstracts/PerkinsOnceDuring.html
> > > >
> > > >Teller suggests that such large-scale inundations from a half-meter
> > > >rise in sea level over about a year could have been the source of
> > > >the stories of massive floods recorded in Babylonian history and
> > > >the Bible."
> > >
> > > This seems rather too early to have been remembered inside any reasonable
> > > timescale - although there would certainly have been people alive at the time.
> >
> > Agreed, but the later candidates for a flood myth are
> > all river floods, and of a much smaller magnitude.
> > Still, a concurrent Mesopotamian flood is my preferred candidate
> > for the stimulus for what eventually became the Noachian Flood myth.
> >
> > Daryl Krupa
>
> Hello Daryl,
> Could you be more precise and clear ?
> Which dates do you give for the Mesopotamian flood ?
Such a flood would have happened numerous times. I give no dates.
> Do you have geological evidences ?
Go here for a comprehensive discussion of the evolution of
Mesopotamia:
http://athens.arch.ox.ac.uk/ArchAtlas/Environmental%20change/Environmetal%20change.htm
OR
> Do you think it was a global flood ?
No. There is no evidence for a global flood.
> What about the chinese or mayan myths about a flood ?
Chinese agriculture developed along flood plains. It is no surprise
that they talked about floods.
I am not familiar with Mayan myths, so I cannot comment on them.
But I do know that much of their territory was rain forest.
> do they talk about the same flood ?
I very much doubt that.
> Which catastrophies do you know about which happened in the past
> and affected humans ?
Lots:
volcanic eruptions, glacial-lake outbursts, hurricanes and typhoons,
river floods, electrical storms, landslides, buffalo stampedes,
famine, pestilence, war, stock market crashes, revolutions, etc..
> Thanks in advance !
You're welcome, but I don't know that I've been much help to you.
Daryl Krupa
Doug Weller
[SNIP]
> What about the chinese or mayan myths about a flood ? do they talk
> about the same flood ?
[SNIP]
The main Chinese myth I know of is clearly a flood plain myth, with the
flood being defeated by the Emperor building dikes, etc, so it didn't flood
the whole or even known world.
Doug