Ivar Bardson - part 3 -OBS very long -
Inger Johansson
GREENLANDS HISTORY
© Johansson Inger E, Gothenburg August 2003
INGRESS: The story of Greenland and Vinland have fascinated many people of
the year. For many years the Icelandic Sagas was believed to the true
source of the Vinland adventure. The existence of other sources, regardless
if they where written Primary sources or results of excavations in the North
American territories was thought to be slim. Than the site at L'Anse aux
Meadows was found and voila - that site became believed to have been the
mythic Vinland. In this article I don't intend to start a deeper discussion
around the Vinland location. All I intend to do is to present essential
information from some of the earliest sources by referring to Greenland's
History up to 1360 and also present a minor but essential information gained
from later years archaeologists and their excavations.
Chapter 1.
The Icelandic Sagas weren't the first to tell the world about Greenland and
Vinland. The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic information is
the letter from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen
Pope Leo IX wrote "...in omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum, Norunechorum,
Islant, Scrideuinnum, Gronlant et universarum septentrionalum racionum"
An other early information about Greenland and Vinland we have from Adam of
Bremen. In 1070's, more than 50 years before the first Icelandic writer
wrote about Vinland he gave information he had had from King Svein
Estridson[Denmark] who while serving in his relative's the Swedish King's
hird had participated on a Norwegian sailing to Vinland. In chapter 38 of
his book Adam of Bremen write about Halogaland that the same summer- and
midwinter solstice was to be seen in Halogaland as in the land of the Sweons
and the Northland[Norway].
According to all information available today the Norse migration to
Greenland was underway at latest close to 1000 AD. The last time we hear
from the Greenlanders is within 20 years after Columbus set sail westward.
By that time the Western Settlement had been abounded for over 150 years.
The Middle Settlements farms as well and monastery's Annal had been taken
away in 1477.
There have been a lot of misunderstanding and false assumptions re. the
wealth of the Greenlanders over the years. For many years the Greenlanders
were wealthy men who farmed good land and had money enough to build several
churches in the Western as well as in the Eastern Settlement. As Tomas
McGovern wrote: "The archaeological data indicate that the Norse
Greenlanders did invest a great deal of their source resources in
churchconstruction, and that the most powerful economic unit of the later
Norse Greenland was the manor at Garðar." [McGovern, page 222].
The Western Settlement was abounded twice. First there were a larger group
of men and women on many ships who left the Western Settlement where the
first Cathedral on Greenland just had been built. This was in 1121 short
after the first known Christian dispute over the tithes. The Western
Settlers had paid a lot to build churches, support the monastery almost up
in Disco Bay area and they had also built a Cathedral for Greenland's
Bishop. In 1121 the Bishop Eirik looked after the See. A struggle between
the Archbishop of Hamburg-Bremen and the new Norwegian Church center Nidaros
had just started. Both wanted to have their share, the tithes, from the
Greenlanders. There were also disputes over the Papal See and the Pope's
authority. Exactly why more than 1500 people left the Western Settlement
together with Bishop Eirik we don't know. We do know that at least one ship
returned from North America. How? On board one of the ships to Vinland a
young monk Nicholas, in Vatican documents called Nicholas of Thingeyre.
For a year or two Nicholas traveled along Vinland's borders and being a
cartographer as he was, he draw the first maps of the Vinland area. On his
way to the Holy Land he presented the Norwegian King with one exemplar and
the Pope had his other together with a lot of information about Greenland
and Vinland. According to his writings from 1120's Thorfinn Karlsefni short
after Leif Eriksson's return from the first expedition to America left for
the new land. Nicholas said that Karlsefni found the land where it was
supposed to be and that there are two other land south of Greenland
'Helluland' and 'Markland'.[Nicholas av Thingeyres writing about Vinland to
the Pope]. Nicholas returned to Iceland where he was born where he is said
to have lived in the new monestry at Thingeyre up to his death 1159.
By that time Greenland's new Bishop had settled in the new built Bishop See
at Gardar where the new Cathedral had been built in a style that wasn't
second to many in Europe. New farmers moved into the Western Settlement.
Over the years their life became problematic because after December 1154
when Nidaros See became the Archbishop's See for the bishoprics of Oslo,
Hamar, Bergen, Stavanger, the Orkneys, the Sudreys, the Icelandic Islands,
and Greenland, the abandoned land was owned by the Papal Church via the See
in Gardar. There still was productive land, good climate and good hunting.
The price for ivory was high and Europe claimed all the codfish the
Greenlanders could find in the sea, dry and transport to Bergen for further
transport by boats from there.
Garðar wasn't only the See for Greenland. Gardar was also a big farm.
Actually the biggest in Greenland. The main house had an 131 m² big hall and
a 389 m² byre + a 353 m² barn and a storage of 361 m² close by. We can
compare the size with Brattalið where the hall was 66 m², the byre 127 m²,
the barn 105 m² and the storage 118 m². Some archaeologists assume that
Gardar stored growth for the rest of the Greenlandic settlements. Gardar was
also a major center for Greenland's cattle production. "If we combine these
two ratio measures in common scalter plot..a separation of Garðar and the
Brattalið sites from all others in the sample becomes apparent. These seem
to be major centers of cattle production and goods storage out of all
proportions to their proxy measure of consumption" [McGovern, page 215 ].
A church building and a graveyard - there are more ruins from those found in
both Western and Eastern Greenland Settlements than we have been led to
believe by scholars discussing Greenland over the years. It's time to look
at some sites in Western Settlements. While the main hall in the Eastern
Settlements is around 56 m² the same type of hall has a total mean value of
28 m², as for the total mean of Byres eastern Settlements 87 m² and 27 m² in
the western Settlements, Barns in eastern S. had a total mean 85 m² and in
Western Settlements the Barns had a total mean of 36 m² the storage mean
values was lower in west as well. Lets look at two of the farms in the west
Greenland Settlements: Sandnes(W51) Hall 72 m², Byre 84 m² and Barn 155 m²;
and Anavik(W7) Hall ?, Byre 50 m², Barn 54 m² and Storage 38 m². [McGovern,
Table 6 Floor-area of selected structures of farms of the Eastern and
Western Settlements, page 213.]
In fact the Norse settlers in Greenland settled almost every where they
could find land to build a farm, from Disco Bay in northern Western
Settlements to the Eastern Settlements. "The Norse settlements is grouped
around the innerparts of the fjords and the inland between them"..."The
farms are situated at practically all of the suitable places, near rivers
and lakes"... "The other densely settled area is situated on the large
penisula that stretches between the Igalino Fjord and Lichtenan Fjord
(Agdluitsup Lamgerdlua) out into Davis trait"...."ca 40 farms have been
found in this district". [Jansen Henrik M, page 74 ]
"A part from a few isolated localities far south at Naujat in
Fiskenæsfjorden and Eqaluitin Agdlumersat(where nodwellings have been found
however), as well as a single farm at the head of Bulesefjord, the Norse
Settlement in Western Settlements(Map II) is gathered quite closely around
the innerbranches of Godthåbsfjord and Ameralik, as well as in the valleys
that are connected with these fjords". [Jansen Henrik, page 75.]
CHAPTER 2.
These relative good times for the Western Settlement could have gone on for
ever if it hadn't been for the fact that Greenland and the Greenlanders who
had been a free land with free men and women hadn't become an island
directly under Norway. From excavations we know that the Norse Greenlanders
arthaeofauna didn't resamble that in Iceland nor does it resemble the
arthaeofauna of the Eskimo/Inuits or the Indians. The only thing that
resembles the situation in Iceland is the domestic mammals: Cattle, sheep,
goat, pig, dog and horse.[McGovern, page 195]. Mc Govern also say:
page 199: "All Greenlandic Norse sites have a far greater proportion of goat
bones than is common in medieval Iceland archaeogauna(Amorosi 1991) or in
the rest of Scandinavian North Atlantics".
And in regards of the cows McGovern writes:
page 201:" In combination with documentary references and the abundant
dairying artefact asseble(Rousell 1936) it seem likely that cattle were
kept primarily for their milk rather than as meat animals in both
settlements".[The Western and the Eastern Greenland Settlements].
In regards of fish:
page 195: "While fish remains are present in the Greenlandic archaeofauna,
they are extremely rare". Eastern settlements mean NISP% = 0,08 and Western
Settlements mean NSIP% = 0,12.
In regards of pigs:
Page 198: Pigs are rare in Greenland, but are present in several
collections. The fragments include very young animals and elements unlikely
to have been imported as pork. Pigs seem to have been kept more frequently
in the earlier phases of larger farms but were never common".
So what was the main food for the Norse Greenlanders? Henrik Jansen gives us
a clue: "Generally speaking, ca ¾ of the investigated bones are
representative of game animals; thus only ¼ of domestic animals. This is
actually most surprising, considering the large farm complexes. It is even
more surprising, however that the same situation applies to those farms that
are located far away from the sea for example in Austmannadalen in the
Western Settlement". [Jansen Henrik M, A critical account of the written and
archaeological sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in
Greenland, Meddelelser om Grönland 182:4, 1972]
In a Table McGovern gives following information in re. "Major taxa of larger
Greenlandic archaeofauna": The cattle mean in Eastern Settlements 16,7%,
Caprines 32,1%, Caribou[North American reindeer] 2,1% and Seals 48,8%. But
there is a notable difference in regards of the Western Settlements: Cattle
mean 8,2%, Caprines 16,5%, Caribou 18,3%[note this percentage] and seals
57,0%. Mc Govern writes: "Caribou bone(and other craftwaste, not included in
the NISP counts) is much more common on Western Settlement sites, of all
sizes and through out all phases of occupation".[McGovern page 197]
But "As clearly documented by Morten Meldgaard(1986), West Greenland caribou
are subject to population fragmentation along the long, fjord - indented
coastline, and individual populations are subject to both long term and
short term boom-crash cycles. Population morbidity is to some degree
indicated by stature and robusticity. The historic Northeast Greenland
caribou and saqqaq-period caribou from Itivnera(U.Møhl 1972) show marked
dwarfism.[!] By the Norse times, the West Greenland caribou in both
settlement areas had apparently recovered. All elements excavated are large
and robust, with many of the Western Settlement caribou specimens
overlapping the size range of Norse cattle(McGovern and Amorori 1986)."
[McGovern, page 203]
These "lager and robust" caribou must either have been hunted elsewhere or
made their way only to the Western Greenland settlements during the Norse
Greenlanders earlier phases. In the first case we do have a solid proof that
the Norse made it to the North American mainland's parts except from the
site at L'Anse aux Meadows. In the later case it's highly unlikely that wild
reindeer wouldn't have made it all over Greenland or that the Norse
Greenlanders' farmsites in the Eastern Settlement would have had at least
some of the same "robust" bones in their remains as the Western Settlements
if the Western Settlement hadn't had closer contact with the areas
surronding either Hudson Bay or Western North-Canada.
CHAPTER 3
According to some scholars Iceland and Greenland came under Norwegian rule
in 1152 and short there after under the Archbishop See in
Nidaros(Trondheim). Up to 1270's Greenland had it's own thingir and an own
Lawman. From 1275 the Lawman over Greenland was a Lawman from the Gula
Thing. In 1290's the Norwegian King wanted control over all the trade with
Greenland and ordered that all cargo should be transported on Norwegian
ships with Norwegian sailing the ship.
The later condition made life harder for the Greenlanders. They were allowed
to sail the ships because they were 'Norwegians' but they had to pay tax to
the King for all they brought to be sold in Bergen. As if that wasn't enough
there came more problems in the horizon.
In June 22nd 1308 Bishop Arne of Bergen sent a message to Bishop Thord of
Gardar where he wrote that King Eirik of Norway and five Norwegian Bishops
had died the last years. Bishop Thord had been staying in Gardar for several
years by then. He is asked to say prayers for the deads souls. Enclosed to
the letter Bishop Arne sent gifts to the Bishop and to the monasteries in
Greenland. We know that a special English(!) wine for the Altar service was
included among the gifts. At this time there were several monasteries in
Greenland:
* Eastern Settlement:
A monestry for nuns at Hrafnsfjörður.
A monestry for monks on the eastern side of Ketilsfjörður
* Western Settlement.
A monestry north of the settlement on the way to Disco Bay.
* The monestry in the Middle settlement close to the hot springs and the
mountains might still have had monks living by.
In 1311 Bishop Thord of Gardar visited Norway. Together with abbot Einar of
St Michael's Monastery (Munkeliv) he wrote a decret to let people know about
Pope Gregor IX's Guardian letter for Fane's Hospital in Bergen. Those who
don't know it need to know that while the Bishop of Bergen had to answer to
the Archbishop in Nidaros the abbot of St Michael's only had to answer to
the Pope. This situation didn't suit the Bishop of Bergen. After the death
of King Hakon V Magnusson when King Hakon's grandson Magnus Eriksson had
been elected King of Norway but due to the new king being underage had a
guardian group to look after Norway, The new Bishop, Audfinn, and Archbishop
Eilief or Nidaros came in quarrel of where the Greenland's shippers should
pay the tithes they had to pay in Norway if they stayed in Bergen over
Winter..
For the Greenlanders this meant that they had to pay tithes for as owners of
farms in Greenland to the Greenlandic See. They had to pay tax to the
Norwegian King, actually 1/10 of the profit from the merchandise-sale of
their cargo in Bergen. They also had to pay a tithes if they stayed in
Bergen over the winter. This meant that the Greenlanders weren't so keen on
sailing their ships to Norway and from that time on the ships travelling
back and forth mainly were Norwegian ships. One of the larger of them was
the Royal Knarr.
For the people from Western Settlement this was devastating. Their income
decreased and by late 1330's many of them had had to give land instead of
the usual tithes to the Papal Church See in Gardar. They didn't own their
own land and now they couldn't sail as they had used to on own ships to
Bergen to increase their income by selling furs, skins from walrus,
ship-ropes made from whale skins, ivory, sour milk, cheese, klepper-stone
and other items.
In 1335 Magnus Eriksson of Norway and Sweden married Bianca of Namur,
daughter to Duke Jean of Namur in Flandern. From this time on forward some
navigators from Flandern, today called Dutch, sailed on Norwegian ships.
By 1340 nearly all of the Western Settlement's 190 farms had been
expropriated by the Church in lieu of payments for indulgences, special
masses for the departed, etc. The once free and independent Western
Greenlanders were reduced to the status of serfs and tenant farmers on their
own former
holdings.
When Bishop Hakon of Bergen in August 8th 1341 writes a Pass-port for Ivar
Baardsön[Ivar Bardson/Bardarson] to sail to Greenland representing Bergen's
See who thought that it was their rights to collect the tithes from all
dioceses under Gardar See, this came to be too much for the settlers in
Western Settlement. As we have heard from the Icelandic Annals under 1342
written in 1637 from a now 'lost' origin:
"The inhabitants of Greenland fell voluntarily away from the true faith and
the Christian religion, and
after having given up all the good manners and true virtues, turned to the
people of America ('ad Americae populos se converteunt' ) Some say that
Greenland lies away near the western lands of the world." [Icelandic
Annals 1342].
Above you have seen a short summery of Greenland's History up to 1341. From
this and from Ivar Bardson - part 1 and 2, I will present to you a
text-analyse in Ivar Bardson - part 4. Below are the essential sources I
have used for this the third part of the Ivar Bardson story.
Inger E Johansson
Prime Sources:
Adam of Bremen, Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum, book 4, Chapter
37-39
Bull of Pope Anastasius IV
Diplomatarium Danicum, serie 1, II, no 1
Diplomatarium Norwegicum bind 1 nr 66 and 67.
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 1 nr 71
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 4 nr 128
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 6 nr 36
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 7 nr 103
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 9 nr 84
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 10 nr 9
Icelandic Annals 1342 written down in 1637 by Bishop Gisle Odds
Ivar Bardarson, Det gamle Grønlands beskrivelse af Ívar Bárðarson (Ivar
Bårdssön), ed. Finnur Jónsson (København, 1930).
Nicholars of Thingeyres documents to the Papal See
Ordericus Vitalis, Historiske besetninger om Normanner og Angelsaxere fra
Orderik Vitals kirkehistorie I-III. Edited in 1889
Works:
Arneborg J, Norbverne i Grönland 1988
Jansen Henrik M,A critical account of the written and archaeological
sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in Greenland, Meddelelser
om Grönland 182:4, 1972
Mason Ronaldy, Great Lakes Archaeology, NY 1981
McGovern Thomas H., Bones, Building and Boundaries: Palaeoeconomic
Approaches to Norse Greenland
Rousell A, Farms and churches in the Medieval Norse settlement of Greenland,
Meddelelser of Grönland 86(1).
The Roman Church in Norse Greenland, editor G F Bigelow, "The Norse of the
North Atlantic, Acta Archaeologica 61(1991) page 142-150 Köpenhamn
© Johansson Inger E, Gothenburg August 2003
David
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:_2f%a.20102$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
> IVAR BARDSON -PART 3
>
> GREENLANDS HISTORY
> © Johansson Inger E, Gothenburg August 2003
>
Mixture of fact and fantasy. Kirsten A. Seaver's book is far better and better written.
Inger Johansson
"David" <dro...@fuse.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3f3da398$0$52126$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net...
Might be better written - but you are making a mistake here - there is not
one single fantasy word in my text contrary to what Kirsten A Seaver have in
her book!!!
She has assumptions without grounds what so ever over and over in her book.
That's far easier to write fantasy. Sticking close to the origin texts as I
do is an other thing.
I haven't all sources here, that's true. I have mentioned one of the other
many times - Historica Norvegeiae. I have told you all that one needs to go
back to the prime sources. I have told you so over and over thru the years.
I don't use the Icelandic Sagas. They aren't valid to same degree as other
documentation can be. On the other hand the Icelandic Sagas can give you a
good hint of what you can find in other documents if you look around.
David, if you aren't to look stupid in this discussion you better read the
sources and works I have referred to. If you don't you are a loser because -
it's all in there. Believe it or not. I suggest that you start by reading
Adam of Bremen. I have understood from discussion here that most peoples,
scholar or non-scholars haven't a clue that the real good solid information
re Vinland weren't written by Snorre or someone else 150 years AFTER the
events.
I guess you haven't heard about Nicholas of Thingeyre before I suggest you
go to The Catholic Encyclopedia for your first information about him and
perhaps your first true information about Vinland at all:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01416a.htm
don't stop there. You better use information presented there + the
Prime/Primary sources I myself have referred to. Some other scholars have
found Nicholas of Thingeyre's paper that's true. If you like you could start
by reading the text and the sources + works presented by John N. Harris in
http://www.spirasolaris.ca/sbb4g1ev.html
I certainly can't confirm all his conclusions. I work out of the Prime
sources and the artifacts that have been found. Believe it or not there are
a lot of Norse artifacts from 1000 - 1500 found during excavations in NA.
Many of them by amateurs that's true, but the amount found by archaeologists
who have kept their records even if their employers in more than one case
have decided to supress the findings and datings because the artifacts and
the dated layer doesn't correspond to the Official view.... all I can say
outside my book is it's much as it is and one can't help thinking - what if
everything were presented once and for all and validated together with each
other and the written sources.
Inger E
>
>
erilar
<inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
> Works:
> Arneborg J, Norbverne i Grönland 1988
>
> Jansen Henrik M,A critical account of the written and archaeological
> sources' evidence concerning the Norse settlements in Greenland,
> Meddelelser
> om Grönland 182:4, 1972
>
> Mason Ronaldy, Great Lakes Archaeology, NY 1981
>
Wow! sources! Not exactly normal bibliography form, of course. Normally
publisher and place of publication are included. . .
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Inger Johansson
"erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:erilarloFRY-8B85...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
Erilar,
you missed the sources diplomas and documents all written before 1400. You
only saw the works. Good so,
you better start reading them because I doubt your capacity to understand
the origin texts.
Inger E
Erik Hammerstad
irrelevant, sorry.
Inger Johansson
"Erik Hammerstad" <eg...@start.no> skrev i meddelandet
news:3F3E8F81...@start.no...
You better be sorry that you either can't read or can't comprehend the full
text of the diplomas. They are all but irrelevant, sorry didn't know that
you were so stupid that you couldn't at least read the Norwegian text
summery....
Once again Erik you have proven that you don't accept facts. That's your
problem. A problem you seem to be unaware of how to cure.
Inger E
>
Michael Kuettner
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:_2f%a.20102$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
> IVAR BARDSON -PART 3
> Chapter 1.
> The Icelandic Sagas weren't the first to tell the world about Greenland
and
> Vinland. The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic information is
> the letter from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen
It's archbishop of Hamburg _and_ Bremen, bonehead.
> Pope Leo IX wrote "...in omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum,
Norunechorum,
> Islant, Scrideuinnum, Gronlant et universarum septentrionalum racionum"
>
No mention of Vinland here.
We've been through this in sci.archaeology in February.
The thread shows that our little fuckhead knows no Latin.
> An other early information about Greenland and Vinland we have from Adam
of
> Bremen. In 1070's, more than 50 years before the first Icelandic writer
> wrote about Vinland he gave information he had had from King Svein
> Estridson[Denmark] who while serving in his relative's the Swedish King's
> hird had participated on a Norwegian sailing to Vinland.
Source ?
> In chapter 38 of
> his book Adam of Bremen write about Halogaland that the same summer- and
> midwinter solstice was to be seen in Halogaland as in the land of the
Sweons
> and the Northland[Norway].
>
So what ? Still no Vinland.
<snip>
> McGovern wrote: "The archaeological data indicate that the Norse
> Greenlanders did invest a great deal of their source resources in
> churchconstruction, and that the most powerful economic unit of the later
> Norse Greenland was the manor at Garğar." [McGovern, page 222].
>
So McGovern is another dyslexic Swede ?
"Source resources" ?
And you DARE to put that into quotation marks ?
And "McGovern, page 222" is no cite, you pseudo-scholar.
Snip rest of garbage.
Don't bother to put copyright remarks on garbage like that;
not even Daeniken would touch it.
erilar
<eg...@start.no> wrote:
> Inger Johansson wrote:
> >
> >
> > Erilar,
> > you missed the sources diplomas and documents all written before 1400.
> > You
> > only saw the works. Good so,
> > you better start reading them because I doubt your capacity to
> > understand
> > the origin texts.
> >
> > Inger E
> >
> But the diplomas you have used as references are in general quite
> irrelevant, sorry.
>
No surprise. That part I couldn't judge on the minimal info given, but I
know proper bibliographic form for the parts listed as "works" and that
wasn't it.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Inger Johansson
"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i meddelandet
news:bhme8q$vlmh$1...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:_2f%a.20102$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
> > IVAR BARDSON -PART 3
> <snip>
> > Chapter 1.
> > The Icelandic Sagas weren't the first to tell the world about Greenland
> and
> > Vinland. The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic information
is
> > the letter from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen
>
> It's archbishop of Hamburg _and_ Bremen, bonehead.
>
> > Pope Leo IX wrote "...in omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum,
> Norunechorum,
> > Islant, Scrideuinnum, Gronlant et universarum septentrionalum racionum"
> >
> No mention of Vinland here.
> We've been through this in sci.archaeology in February.
> The thread shows that our little fuckhead knows no Latin.
We have been thru that you neither are a Medieval Historian, that's correct.
We have also been thru that you can't read the text, that's correct. Had you
read the discussion texts around the diploma you would have known that
scholars of Religion as well as scholars of History speaks of the
'outher'(my English translation, I have text in Latin and Swedish) part as
if NA is thought of.
Never the less IF you had learnt to read English you would have seen that I
said:
"The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic information is the letter
from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen"........"An other
early information about Greenland and Vinland we have from Adam of Bremen."
Had you been a Medieval scholar of a scholar of Religion you would have
known that the Icelandic Sagas were written long there after.
Information for others:
* Ari Thorgilsson dead 1148, Landnámabók written the first half of 12th c.
He is often referred to as more trustworthy then the other. Well that can be
disputed. I did so in my D-essay and I do so in my book, no matter what
conclusion you will arrive at after reading my analyse of the Landnámabók he
definitely wrote it after the two Prime source mentioned above. Neither he
nor they were in Greenland and Vinland themself.
* Nicholas of Thingeyre. Vatikan archives. 1121-1124, he left the written
statement about Vinland to the Pople in 1124. He had been there.
* Kristni Saga and Snorre's Kings Sagas. Written approx.1250. Neither close
in time nor written close in place of Greenland and Vinland.
* King Olaf's Saga in Flateybook wasn't written down until 1387. It's
thought that part of it might go back to a short version written by Ari
Thorgilsson. If so a document lost today. Neiter possibilities place the
Saga close in place and/or close in time.
For discussion about the Saga and Tradition round King Olaf's Saga please
read.
Schreiner Johan, Tradisjon og Saga om Olav den Hellige, edited by Det Norske
Videnskaps-Akademi Oslo, Hist-Filos-Klasse 1926. Nr 1.
Conclusion the earliest document that present information about Greenland
and/or Vinland are the two I referred to
in my Ivar Bardson - part 3.
Since the rest of Michael K's lines show exactly the same invalid comments
and inaccuracy as his try to attack my choice of sources, the rest of his
lines may rest in peace.
Inger E
Soren Larsen
"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i en meddelelse
news:bhme8q$vlmh$1...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de...
Adam
> of
> > Bremen. In 1070's, more than 50 years before the first Icelandic
writer
> > wrote about Vinland he gave information he had had from King Svein
> > Estridson[Denmark] who while serving in his relative's the Swedish
King's
> > hird had participated on a Norwegian sailing to Vinland.
>
> Source ?
>
There is none. Inger is lying again.
She is combining the wellknown information from Adam
with the lie about Svein Estrithsen travelling to Vinland
Maybe there is an early mushroom season in Sweden this
year.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Inger Johansson
you are no Medival Scholar. You only wrote that in order to continue your
abuse attacks on me. Forget it. You will not winn this battle.
Inger E
"Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk> skrev i meddelandet
news:bhnena$17isl$1...@ID-131301.news.uni-berlin.de...
Erik Hammerstad
> "Erik Hammerstad" <eg...@start.no> skrev i meddelandet
> news:3F3E8F81...@start.no...
>
>>
>>But the diplomas you have used as references are in general quite
>>irrelevant, sorry.
>
>
> You better be sorry that you either can't read or can't comprehend the full
> text of the diplomas. They are all but irrelevant, sorry didn't know that
> you were so stupid that you couldn't at least read the Norwegian text
> summery....
>
> Once again Erik you have proven that you don't accept facts. That's your
> problem. A problem you seem to be unaware of how to cure.
>
> Inger E
>
A synopsis of the information in the Norwegian diplomas you have
given as references:
Diplomatarium Norwegicum bind 1 nr 66 and 67.
- Nidaros to collect tithe from Greenland (1279)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 1 nr 71
- Postponement of tithe paying due to bad harvests in Norway, not
Greenland (1279)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 4 nr 128
- Extracts from King Haakon V's testament regarding 4 Norwegian
Royal chapels, no mention of Greenland (1312-1319)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 6 nr 36
- Tithe collection by Nidaros from Greenland (1276)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 7 nr 103
- Traders from Trondheim returning from Greenland must pay customs
in Bergen (1325)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 9 nr 84
- The Gardar bishop is involved in presenting a papal letter
regarding a Norwegian West-coast hospital (1311)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum bind 10 nr 9
- A letter to the Gardar bishop regarding the death of the King and
five bishops (1308)
Not really much relevance in these with regard to Greenland's
History, is there. I strongly suspect that you have provided these
references just because they are the only ones from the
Diplomatarium Norwegicum even mentioning Greenland in the relevant
time frame - and you even slipped in some which did not.
I have a very strong regard for facts and reality, Inger, my job
requires that. You on the other hand...
Soren Larsen
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:DgH%a.20242$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
Give your source on Svein Etrithsen travelling to Vinland or this shall
be regarded as just another of your fantasies.
BTW There is no battle to win.
I'm just pointing out that you are being unreliable as usual.
Soren Larsen
Horst Enzensberger
> In article <3F3E8F81...@start.no>, Erik Hammerstad
> <eg...@start.no> wrote:
>
> > Inger Johansson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Erilar,
> > > you missed the sources diplomas and documents all written before 1400.
> > > You
> > > only saw the works. Good so,
> > > you better start reading them because I doubt your capacity to
> > > understand
> > > the origin texts.
> > >
> > > Inger E
> > >
> > But the diplomas you have used as references are in general quite
> > irrelevant, sorry.
> >
>
> No surprise. That part I couldn't judge on the minimal info given, but I
> know proper bibliographic form for the parts listed as "works" and that
> wasn't it.
For the documents You can look here:
<http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_field_eng.html>
Enter volume and number of document
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Prof. Dr. Horst Enzensberger
Historische Hilfswissenschaften
Otto - Friedrich - Universität Bamberg
David B.
>
>"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i en meddelelse
>news:bhme8q$vlmh$1...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>
>> > An other early information about Greenland and Vinland we have
>> >from Adam of Bremen. In 1070's, more than 50 years before the first
>> >Icelandic writer wrote about Vinland he gave information he had had
>> >from King Svein Estridson [Denmark] who while serving in his
>> >relative's the Swedish King's hird had participated on a Norwegian
>> >sailing to Vinland.
>>
>> Source ?
>
>There is none. Inger is lying again.
>She is combining the wellknown information from Adam
>with the lie about Svein Estrithsen travelling to Vinland
Of course it all depends on what you mean by "source". Adam of Bremen
described in chapters 35 to 38 of his "Description Insularum Aquilonis",
the islands of Island, Gronland, Halagland and Winland. Adam does not
mention King Svein in connection with Winland, but his information on
Halagland is likely to be the source. He introduces Halagland as "insula
vicinior Nortmanniae, magnitudine ceteris non impar. Haec in estate circa
solsticium per quatuordecim dies continuos solem videt super terram et in
hieme similiter per totidem dies sole caret". He then explains about the
midnight sun phenomenon, which he properly describes as "Stupenda res et
incognita barbaris", adding at the end "Hoc ignorantes pagani, terram illam
vocant sanctam et beatam, quae tale miraculum praestet mortalibus. Itaque
rex Danorum cum multis aliis contestatus est hoc ibi contingere, sicut in
Suedia et in Norvegia et in ceteris quae ibi sunt insulis."
So should that last sentence be interpreted as meaning that the King of the
Danes actually visited Halagland? And indeed, is Halagland definitely
Helluland? The name sounds similar, but the latitude would fit only the far
north of Baffin Island, and "vicinior Nortmanniae" seems a major problem.
Full Adam of Bremen text at:
http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/chrons/bremen.htm
Stein R.
Umm, we do have a part of mainland Northern Norway up to-
wards the Arctic circle which is known as Hålogaland (notice
the even closer similarity with Halagland than Helluland ...)
But since I don't read latin, I can't read what Adam wrote,
and I can't tell whether the area he described might have been
just northern Norway instead of some "island".
Smile
Stein
Soren Larsen
"David B." <da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:bhol10$2nj$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
????
It is however another example of the "ball shaped earth" medieval
world view
>adding at the end "Hoc ignorantes pagani, terram illam
> vocant sanctam et beatam, quae tale miraculum praestet mortalibus.
Itaque
> rex Danorum cum multis aliis contestatus est hoc ibi contingere, sicut
in
> Suedia et in Norvegia et in ceteris quae ibi sunt insulis."
>
> So should that last sentence be interpreted as meaning that the King
of the
> Danes actually visited Halagland? And indeed, is Halagland definitely
> Helluland? The name sounds similar, but the latitude would fit only
the far
> north of Baffin Island, and "vicinior Nortmanniae" seems a major
problem.
Not to mention that some manuscripts from the X-edition at this point
has
an marginal note: " Other claims that Halagland is the farthest area
of Nortmannia(Norway). It is closest to the Scritofingii (Finns)
and is inaccessible because of its wild mountains and hard frost
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Brian M. Scott
<da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
>Of course it all depends on what you mean by "source". Adam of Bremen
>described in chapters 35 to 38 of his "Description Insularum Aquilonis",
>the islands of Island, Gronland, Halagland and Winland. Adam does not
>mention King Svein in connection with Winland, but his information on
>Halagland is likely to be the source. He introduces Halagland as "insula
>vicinior Nortmanniae, magnitudine ceteris non impar. Haec in estate circa
>solsticium per quatuordecim dies continuos solem videt super terram et in
>hieme similiter per totidem dies sole caret". He then explains about the
>midnight sun phenomenon, which he properly describes as "Stupenda res et
>incognita barbaris", adding at the end "Hoc ignorantes pagani, terram illam
>vocant sanctam et beatam, quae tale miraculum praestet mortalibus. Itaque
>rex Danorum cum multis aliis contestatus est hoc ibi contingere, sicut in
>Suedia et in Norvegia et in ceteris quae ibi sunt insulis."
>So should that last sentence be interpreted as meaning that the King of the
>Danes actually visited Halagland? And indeed, is Halagland definitely
>Helluland? The name sounds similar, but the latitude would fit only the far
>north of Baffin Island, and "vicinior Nortmanniae" seems a major problem.
Hálogaland, maybe? I believe that it's in the north of Norway.
[...]
Brian
Inger Johansson
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> skrev i meddelandet
news:3f3fef41....@enews.newsguy.com...
Svein Estridson did visit NA. During the years he had to be out of
Denmark(guess you know about that) he spent a lot of time at his cousin the
Swedish King Ane's court. Svein Estridson was also in the Norwegian King's
hird. Together with Olav and for Olav he made several voyages. One to
Greenland and Vinland.
Inger E
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
tkavanagh
You will, of course, provide a citation.
tk
Inger Johansson
"tkavanagh" <tkav...@indiana.edu> skrev i meddelandet
news:3F400771...@indiana.edu...
In due time. When that is of essential importance for the validation. Not in
Ivar Bardson's thread.
Inger E
>
> tk
Seppo Renfors
erilar wrote:
>
> In article <3F3E8F81...@start.no>, Erik Hammerstad
> <eg...@start.no> wrote:
>
> > Inger Johansson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Erilar,
> > > you missed the sources diplomas and documents all written before 1400.
> > > You
> > > only saw the works. Good so,
> > > you better start reading them because I doubt your capacity to
> > > understand
> > > the origin texts.
> > >
> > > Inger E
> > >
> > But the diplomas you have used as references are in general quite
> > irrelevant, sorry.
> >
>
> No surprise. That part I couldn't judge on the minimal info given, but I
> know proper bibliographic form for the parts listed as "works" and that
> wasn't it.
The cat is out of the bag again.... with its claws sharpened, hissing
and scratching.... but as per usual. Ebadaebadaebada.. that's all
folk.
--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Crozier
That's rather frustrating, I must say. Now that we have got on to this
subject, it would be really useful (and good scholarship)to provide a source
for this claim right now.
Hälsningar
Alan
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Alan Crozier
Skatteberga 1392
247 92 Södra Sandby
Sweden
TO REPLY BY E-MAIL: change Crazier to Crozier
Inger Johansson
"Alan Crozier" <alan.c...@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:UW_%a.24600$dP1....@newsc.telia.net...
Alan,
I have done that in the past. Some folks attack my spelling instead of
reading all text and go for the ref. books, works etc etc. I don't mean you
Alan, but frustrating or not I don't intend to get stuck anymore in details.
This isn't a Dissertation-group nor is it a closed group.
Inger E
David B
"Svein Estridson did visit NA." "Svein Estridson was also in the Norwegian
King's hird. Together with Olav and for Olav he made several voyages. One
to Greenland and Vinland."
Inger Johansson wrote in message ...
>
>I have done that in the past. Some folks attack my spelling instead of
>reading all text and go for the ref. books, works etc etc.
A Google Groups search reveals that one thing she has done in the past is
make the following statement (in message
kDN28.16026$l93.3...@newsb.telia.net on 20 Jan 2002), in reply to the
question
>>>Surely you are not suggesting Olaf Tryggvason visited
>>>North America?
>>Yes I am
Her assertion which had given rise to the incredulous question was
>>>>King Olaf visited Vinland the year before he died.
(she also referred in another message,
u7648.10326$n4.19...@newsc.telia.net , on 24 Jan 2002, to "Bishop Sigfrid
who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson to Greenland and NA" )
Leaving aside the fact that Olaf Tryggvason died years before Svein
Estridson was born, it's well worth noting that according to Snorri
Sturluson's "Heimskringla", one place Olaf Tryggvason famously did visit
the year before he died was Halogaland, in the north of Norway (see
sections 81-84 on
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason2.html , or
sections 74-77 on http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/ol-tr.htm )
Halogaland was also visited by Olaf Haraldson "the Holy" in 1020, which may
or may not be relevant. It seems increasingly likely that Inger's claims of
Scandinavian kings visiting North America are actually based on a mistaken
assumption that names like "Halogaland" (and Adam of Bremen's "Halagland")
refer to the "Helluland" near Vinland...
Inger Johansson
While you have managed to have to message mixed, did you intend it or is it
someone else who have been in on the super-Eva server changing 'Norway and
Sweden' to
'Greenland and NA'? That's the second time that happened, last time we
managed to find the abuser who had hacked himself in. He lived in between
Manhattan and Long Island btw.
Anyway that's not the essential part. Now you try to prove a thing totally
opposite to the one you are trying to prove. Fantastic! Yes Olav Haraldson
the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof an
artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many many
written sources. A canote.
Good Night ! You have made it. You have referred to wrong text and proven a
second confirmation for Olav's first voyage to Greenland and NA.
Inger E
"David B" <tronos...@tesco.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:Et30b.757$Xf1...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Alan Crozier
> Yes Olav Haraldson
> the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof an
> artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many many
> written sources. A canote.
For those of you who don't understand Swedish: that should be a canoe, if I
am interpreting Inger correctly..
Inger Johansson
> "Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
> news:hT40b.20378$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
> > Yes Olav Haraldson
> > the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof an
> > artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many many
> > written sources. A canote.
>
> For those of you who don't understand Swedish: that should be a canoe, if
I
> am interpreting Inger correctly..
Thanks, you do. As I written many times before - I am dyslextic.
Unfortunatly my computer don't accept two language-speller checker working
when I use Outlook.
Inger E
Brian M. Scott
>> >>Yes I am
>David B,
>While you have managed to have to message mixed, did you intend it or is it
>someone else who have been in on the super-Eva server changing 'Norway and
>Sweden' to 'Greenland and NA'?
The claim is absurd.
>That's the second time that happened, last time we
>managed to find the abuser who had hacked himself in. He lived in between
>Manhattan and Long Island btw.
Must have been a hell of a queer fish, considering the pollution
in those waters.
>Anyway that's not the essential part. Now you try to prove a thing totally
>opposite to the one you are trying to prove. Fantastic! Yes Olav Haraldson
>the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof an
>artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many many
>written sources. A canote.
The word is <canoe>. (In case anyone was wondering, the Swedish
is <kanot>.) But of course you will provide no evidence for the
existence of this canoe.
>Good Night ! You have made it. You have referred to wrong text and proven a
>second confirmation for Olav's first voyage to Greenland and NA.
Actually, he's blown you out of the water and provided a
plausible explanation of the source of your confusion.
Lukas Pietsch
on 24 Jan 2002:
>> "Bishop Sigfrid who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson
>> to Greenland and NA" )
Inger answered:
> While you have managed to have to message mixed,
> did you intend it or is it someone else who have been in
> on the super-Eva server changing 'Norway and Sweden' to
> 'Greenland and NA'? That's the second time that happened,
[...]
Huh? Do you mean to say you did *not* write, on 24 Jan 2002:
> Bishop Sigfrid who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson
> to Greenland and NA, and than to Norway from where he
> continued to Sweden and baptised King Olof Skötkonung
> of Sweden in 1000 AD.
So, instead, you claim you wrote:
"[...] who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson to *Norway and
Sweden*, and than to *Norway* from where he continued to
*Sweden* [...]" (my emphasis)???
Wouldn't that strike you as a bit unlogical?
If indeed the archived version of that message has been
tampered with, as you claim, could you please clarify what
you did write back then?
By the way, you seem to have made the claim about Sigfrid
travelling to NA elsewhere too, for instance on 20 Jan 2002
in an answer to Wilson Angerson:
>> Inger, presumably you mean Vindland, the land of the
>> Wends, in the southern Baltic? Surely you are not suggesting
>> Olaf Tryggvason visited North America?
> Yes I am, I heard the story first time during my childhood,
> I have read it more than once in re. to the old Indian boat in
> books written before 1750. I haven't payed any deeper thoughts
> in it before I read Reiersgord's book. There are small information
> given there which correspond with the travel of King Olaf and
> Bishop Sigfrid(who by the way with a different spelling both
> exists in an English Diploma two years before the voyage is told
> to have happened).
> For two generations Norwegian and Danish Kings visited
> Vinland and told about it. Svein Estridson was one of them
> his story you can find in Adam of Bremen's book about the
> Archbishops of Hamburg Bremen written between
> 1053-1075).
Lukas
Inger Johansson
"Lukas Pietsch" <lukas....@NOpluto.SPAMuni-freiburg.de> skrev i
meddelandet news:3f4109ae$0$1598$9b62...@news.freenet.de...
Lukas,
you DID find the other message tempered with. A person from NY that time.
Since I didn't observe it this time - don't read my message after I checked
that they arrived to the group/-s. After that time I rarely go back. The
other time the person had used a swing on a computer in Netherland and
hacked in on the server in Italy(mailgate.it) where it's possible to delete
message.
Inger E
>
>
> Lukas
>
>
David B.
Inger mentioned the canoe in the message I quoted,
kDN28.16026$l93.3...@newsb.telia.net
(twice, if you count a quotation from an earlier message). I'm pretty sure
we'll find that a canoe did hang for many years in Trondheim / Nidaros
cathedral, but as for its true origins in time and space...
>>Good Night ! You have made it. You have referred to wrong text and proven
a
>>second confirmation for Olav's first voyage to Greenland and NA.
>
>Actually, he's blown you out of the water and provided a
>plausible explanation of the source of your confusion.
And I'd be inclined to say that her reply supports my recent suggestions
that Inger is not confused but deliberately lying. Are shm, sci.arch etc.
the victims of one of the most successfully sustained practical jokes in
Usenet history?
Soren Larsen
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:a080b.24673$dP1....@newsc.telia.net...
Then we have this beauty in mesage
<92vv7.5935$aM.6...@newsc.telia.net>:
"Anyhow I have found more information during the last days..... from
late
10th Century to mid 11th Century at least two Kings and one Representant
for
the Pope visited Vinland's parish - one known before the Danish King
Svein
Estridsson.... one an English King....
Inger E"
A forgery too?
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
"David B." <da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> skrev i en meddelelse
news:bhr3ra$9hm$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Brian M. Scott wrote in message
<3f40ff6c....@enews.newsguy.com>...
> >
> >On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:53:17 GMT, "Inger Johansson"
> ><inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Olav Haraldson
> >>the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof
an
> >>artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many
many
> >>written sources. A canote.
> >
> >The word is <canoe>. (In case anyone was wondering, the Swedish
> >is <kanot>.) But of course you will provide no evidence for the
> >existence of this canoe.
>
> Inger mentioned the canoe in the message I quoted,
> kDN28.16026$l93.3...@newsb.telia.net
> (twice, if you count a quotation from an earlier message). I'm pretty
sure
> we'll find that a canoe did hang for many years in Trondheim / Nidaros
> cathedral, but as for its true origins in time and space...
>
I'm also pretty sure that we will find that it was indeed a kayak.
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Lukas Pietsch
> > > did you intend it or is it someone else who have been in
> > > on the super-Eva server changing 'Norway and Sweden' to
> > > 'Greenland and NA'? That's the second time that happened,
> > [...]
> >
> > Huh? Do you mean to say you did *not* write, on 24 Jan 2002:
> >
> > > Bishop Sigfrid who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson
> > > to Greenland and NA, and than to Norway from where he
> > > continued to Sweden and baptised King Olof Skötkonung
> > > of Sweden in 1000 AD.
> >
> > So, instead, you claim you wrote:
> > "[...] who after 991 followed Olav Trygveson to *Norway and
> > Sweden*, and than to *Norway* from where he continued to
> > *Sweden* [...]" (my emphasis)???
> >
>
> Lukas,
> you DID find the other message tempered with.
Notice: Inger didn't answer to any of my specific questions.
> A person from NY that time.
Notice: unmotivated jumps between talking about this allegedly forged
message and the alleged previous instance.
> Since I didn't observe it this time - don't read my message
> after I checked that they arrived to the group/-s. After that
> time I rarely go back. The other time the person had used
> a swing on a computer in Netherland and hacked in on the
> server in Italy(mailgate.it) where it's possible to delete
> message.
Notice: Inger is now claiming not that a previous message had been
forged, but that it was deleted. (I honestly don't know if the former is
technically possible, but apparently the latter is pretty easy,
right?) - Anyway, the point is that Inger, through one of her mental
short-circuits, has mangaged to mix up the two issues and will probably
be quite unable to disentangle them ever again.
I don't concur with David B., though. I still do not think she does
these things on purpose. Somebody else, in a different thread the other
day, suggested a medical term or two for the condition Inger may be
afflicted with. Sounded pretty plausible to me. Heck, I can even
understand why she gets so angry at the rest of us so often. I mean, it
must hurt if you have to live with the feeling that everybody else fails
to understand all the things that are so obvious to yourself, all the
time. It must hurt a lot.
I'm beginning to think it would really be the most humane thing if we'd
all just decide to leave her alone and killfile her.
Lukas
Inger Johansson
notice that you didn't write any valid questions to answer!
Do so and you will at least have a chance of receiving an answer. You better
ask one of the best Medieval scholars there is where he found his quotations
and ref. Paul Halsall
"Columbus Day" on http://www.cojoweb.com/columbus_day.html
For your information Lukas we actually are talking about an old document
known since 1124 by the Vatican.
Inger E
"Lukas Pietsch" <lukas....@NOpluto.SPAMuni-freiburg.de> skrev i
meddelandet news:3f413af5$0$31860$9b62...@news.freenet.de...
David
"Lukas Pietsch" <lukas....@NOpluto.SPAMuni-freiburg.de> wrote in message
news:3f413af5$0$31860>
>I don't concur with David B., though. I still do not think she does
> these things on purpose. Somebody else, in a different thread the other
> day, suggested a medical term or two for the condition Inger may be
> afflicted with. Sounded pretty plausible to me. Heck, I can even
> understand why she gets so angry at the rest of us so often. I mean, it
> must hurt if you have to live with the feeling that everybody else fails
> to understand all the things that are so obvious to yourself, all the
> time. It must hurt a lot.
>
> I'm beginning to think it would really be the most humane thing if we'd
> all just decide to leave her alone and killfile her.
>
> Lukas
>
>
Concur
This may be a manifestation of obsessive-compulsive syndrome, over which this person has
no control and which this person is unable to recognize. Obsessive-compulsive can also
impair the persons ability to "think critically." Since what this person "knows" is
"correct," anything supporting these assumptions must be "correct." Anything to the
contrary is seen as irrelevant and anyone holding a contrary opinion must be "stupid" or
"uneducated."
This could also be a manifestation of Adult Attention Deficit Syndrome, which, can
markedly impair the ability to stay on-task and can be the cause of an inability to
perceive the "statement made/question asked." This can result in answers that are
obtuse to the "statement made/question asked" giving the impression of deliberately
avoiding the question.
The problem is that, having her ability to "think critically" seriously impaired,
she is actually unable to admit that any of her assumptions may not be correct.
Unfortunately, since this is a "mental" problem no amount of discussion will solve it. The
problem really requires a medical diagnoses and medication if the diagnose calls for it.
In the meantime, the only solution for members of Usenet may simply be to killfile this
and other similar persons, unless they really find their postings amusing.
Note: This is a layman's opinion based not on medical knowledge but on personal experience
with multiple individuals exhibiting similar behavior.
For myself, I will not engage in dialog with her as it serves no useful purpose.
David B.
<3f413af5$0$31860$9b62...@news.freenet.de>...
>
>Somebody else, in a different thread the other
>day, suggested a medical term or two for the condition Inger may be
>afflicted with. Sounded pretty plausible to me. Heck, I can even
>understand why she gets so angry at the rest of us so often. I mean, it
>must hurt if you have to live with the feeling that everybody else fails
>to understand all the things that are so obvious to yourself, all the
>time. It must hurt a lot.
>
>I'm beginning to think it would really be the most humane thing if we'd
>all just decide to leave her alone and killfile her.
The trouble is, who is "we"? Usenet is very very big, and even if every
single contributor to shm and sci.arch and sc.nordic killfiled Inger, that
wouldn't eliminate the problem.
One of the oddities I've noticed while trying to learn Ingerish is that the
internet spreads rumour as effectively as it spreads truth. For example,
there are websites which confidently assert that the Vinland Map (which
shows an early 15th-century world view) is a copy of one drawn to accompany
the Tartar Relation when it was first written in the mid-13th century.
While the Vinland Map does indeed appear to have accompanied a 15th-century
manuscript of the Tartar Relation, I'd be most surprised to learn of any
evidence that it is copied from a map which accompanied early versions of
the manuscript.
Brian M. Scott
<da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Lukas Pietsch wrote in message
><3f413af5$0$31860$9b62...@news.freenet.de>...
>>Somebody else, in a different thread the other
>>day, suggested a medical term or two for the condition Inger may be
>>afflicted with. Sounded pretty plausible to me. Heck, I can even
>>understand why she gets so angry at the rest of us so often. I mean, it
>>must hurt if you have to live with the feeling that everybody else fails
>>to understand all the things that are so obvious to yourself, all the
>>time. It must hurt a lot.
>>I'm beginning to think it would really be the most humane thing if we'd
>>all just decide to leave her alone and killfile her.
>The trouble is, who is "we"? Usenet is very very big, and even if every
>single contributor to shm and sci.arch and sc.nordic killfiled Inger, that
>wouldn't eliminate the problem.
>One of the oddities I've noticed while trying to learn Ingerish is that the
>internet spreads rumour as effectively as it spreads truth.
Exactly. It's necessary from time to time to refute errors, so
literal killfiling by everyone really isn't a good idea.
[...]
Brian
Inger Johansson
it's people like you who are spreading rumours. Stop attacking me or anyone
else who happens to have had access to documentation you don't.
Re. Nicholas of Thingeyre he has been known to this worlds scholar of
Medieval History, scholars of Religion and the Papal Church since 1124 when
he met with the Pope on his way to the Holy Land. I didn't invent him,
neither did anyone in the early 20th. He and his activities never been
question, they shouldn't be and especially not by those who haven't had a
proper education in how to valuate texts. What could be discussed is if a
written MS one of the older that exist was written by him or by some earlier
person. That's an other thing, and an other discussion.
I can't present my souces for the moment. I had access to some documents,
and also a copy of two others sent to me. I have sent a request to the
persons who helped me to them if they might be willing to present MS number
or send copies to Fridirik in Iceland, the only one of your naysayers who
know his way thru Medieval documents and their transcription problems,
textanalytical problems(Brian I am not talking about the palaeography) etc.
You proven that yourself in your line arriving to the most proposterous
naysaying conclusions without having spent time to valuate the referrenses
you should have read. Might be that you think yourself above such
referrenses.
You better remember:
"Die Wichtigkeit oder Bedeutung eines Problems hängt immer auch von
subjektiven bewer tendens Elementen ab."
Vollmer Gerhard, Wissenschaftstheorie im Einsatz, Stuttgart 1993, page 17.
In other words(obs not direct translation) subjective elements are always an
importance when you are as a scientist work with a problem/question. You
need to realise that you never can think of yourself as an objective
observer. Your past and your pre-understanding always will play you a trick.
Or as John ziman(Reliable Knowledge, Cambridge University Press 1978, page
134) wrote:
"In it's extreme specialization science is always in danger of fragmentation
into small mutually incomprehsible and non communicating domains, where
standards of judgement and criteria of validity may fall into decoy."
That situation obviously have happen since you aren't aware of the
scientific methods and theories behind analyse of Medieval texts.
You better learn proper behavior to become Gents.
Inger E
"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> skrev i meddelandet
news:3f4186bf...@enews.newsguy.com...
Seppo Renfors
"David B." wrote:
>
[..]
> And I'd be inclined to say that her reply supports my recent suggestions
> that Inger is not confused but deliberately lying. Are shm, sci.arch etc.
> the victims of one of the most successfully sustained practical jokes in
> Usenet history?
That would be you, wouldn't it - remember I have just caught you out
blaming Inger for YOUR OWN STUFF UP and bad-mouthing here while trying
desperately to redirect blame.
I don't think you have nay room to gloat, you know.
Seppo Renfors
"David B." wrote:
>
> Lukas Pietsch wrote in message
> <3f413af5$0$31860$9b62...@news.freenet.de>...
> >
> >Somebody else, in a different thread the other
> >day, suggested a medical term or two for the condition Inger may be
> >afflicted with. Sounded pretty plausible to me. Heck, I can even
> >understand why she gets so angry at the rest of us so often. I mean, it
> >must hurt if you have to live with the feeling that everybody else fails
> >to understand all the things that are so obvious to yourself, all the
> >time. It must hurt a lot.
> >
> >I'm beginning to think it would really be the most humane thing if we'd
> >all just decide to leave her alone and killfile her.
>
> The trouble is, who is "we"?
You, nor the others, had not trouble recognising being part of the
GANG, as seen from your replies eg:
<3f4147a9$0$52142$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net>
[snip remainder of evidence - the wanton vilification of Inger]
David
>
> Exactly. It's necessary from time to time to refute errors, so
> literal killfiling by everyone really isn't a good idea.
>
> [...]
>
> Brian
Just don't engage in discussion with the likes of Inger or Seppo. Doing so only feeds
their egos by affording them the attention they crave, uses up band width and runs off
others who may have worthwhile views to air.
erilar
<dro...@fuse.net> wrote:
I've quit even reading replies to Seppo, Hines, and a couple others, but
replies to Inger retain their horrid fascination.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
David B.
>
>>which may or may not be relevant. It seems increasingly likely that
>>Inger's claims of Scandinavian kings visiting North America are
>>actually based on a mistaken assumption that names like
>>"Halogaland" (and Adam of Bremen's "Halagland") refer to the
>>"Helluland" near Vinland...
>
>opposite to the one you are trying to prove. Fantastic! Yes Olav Haraldson
>the Holy did go to Greenland and NA in 1020. There existed a proof an
>artifact from that trip spoken about form 11th c up to 1641 in many many
>written sources. A canote.
>
>Good Night ! You have made it. You have referred to wrong text and proven
>a second confirmation for Olav's first voyage to Greenland and NA.
A couple of points I ought to add here. First it might be useful to give
the reference for Olaf the Holy's visit: chapters 110-111 of the story of
Olaf Haraldson (English version at
http://users.ev1.net/~theweb/Heims-20.htm and elsewhere, or as chapters
104-105 in the Icelandic text at
http://www.snerpa.is/net/snorri/ol-helg.htm )
Second, it has ocurred to me that the source of the Helluland / Halgoland
confusion may be Adam of Bremen himself. He describes his "Halagland"
between his descriptions of Greenland and Vinland, as "insula ...
magnitudine ceteris non impar" which certainly suggests Baffin Island as
Helluland. Could it be that he has heard of the existence of Helluland in
that context, then tried asking other people for more information, and been
given details of Halogaland by one or more slightly confused Scandinavians
who were not actually familiar with the former place?
Soren Larsen
And he might me further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which he
mentions
in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note (skolion) in
Descriptio 10.
Then there is the fact that he places Iceland to the north of Britain
(Descriptio 36)
and Greenland to the north of Norway (North of the montes Riphea),
(Descriptio 37)
This makes it reasonable to mention Halagland in connection with
Vinland.
Vinland must have been located somewhere north of Finland in Adams
worldview.
For Adam it must have looked like this from west to east:
Iceland-Greenland-Halagland-Vinland
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Brian M. Scott
wrote:
>> Exactly. It's necessary from time to time to refute errors, so
>> literal killfiling by everyone really isn't a good idea.
>Just don't engage in discussion with the likes of Inger or Seppo. Doing so only feeds
>their egos by affording them the attention they crave, uses up band width and runs off
>others who may have worthwhile views to air.
It isn't precisely discussion, but occasionally the back and
forth amuses me. It was a complete waste of time arguing with
Steve Whittet back in the day, but it was good fun, because his
notions of history were just plain bizarre. Besides, Steve often
gave references, and you could have fun explaining why they were
worthless or why they didn't say what he thought the said. Inger
approaches his standard of looniness, but owing to her
evasiveness she's not nearly as amusing. (Seppo, on the other
hand, appears to have no redeeming features.)
Brian
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>
>And he might me further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which he
>mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
>(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
But surely he would have known enough about Helgoland to not confuse
it with mysterious places in the far north?
I have somewhere a copy of a map made by Johannes Meyer which showed
the extent of Helgoland in 1300 AD and again in 800 AD. Like all of
the islands along the Frisian coast Helgoland had reduced considerably
in size over that period. From memory, at one time the island had 36
parishes and it is unlikely that Adalbert would not know about it.
>
>Then there is the fact that he places Iceland to the north of Britain
>(Descriptio 36) and Greenland to the north of Norway (North of the
> montes Riphea), (Descriptio 37)
This is not entirely surprising. In those days it was not realised the
magnetic and geographic north poles were not the same. With the aid of
a globe one can see that for people in the region of Scandinavia,
north of England etc, http://geo.phys.uit.no/articl/magnorpe.gif
gives an idea of the situation. The ancient location of the magnetic
pole circa 1100 AD appears to be somewhat uncertain. I have seen maps
which place it as far south as Hudsons Bay.
>
>This makes it reasonable to mention Halagland in connection with
>Vinland. Vinland must have been located somewhere north of Finland
>in Adams worldview.
The question is, in which direction did he think was North?
>
>For Adam it must have looked like this from west to east:
>
>Iceland-Greenland-Halagland-Vinland
Eric Stevens
Inger Johansson
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:ej35kv4apl3v2e2vc...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:11:07 +0200, "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >And he might me further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which he
> >mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
> >(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
>
> But surely he would have known enough about Helgoland to not confuse
> it with mysterious places in the far north?
Well if Adam of Bremen didn't know where Helgoland was, which he definitely
knew since he had visited Helgoland himself, Svein Estridsson at least knew
from own experience Helgoland, Halogaland and Helluland..... When ever
someone, scholar or non-scholar, suggest such rediculus assumption that Adam
of Bremen didn't know where Helgoland was located and that Svein Estridson
didn't know what he talked about - that someone only show lack of interest
to study the Prime sources and background information for Adam respective
Svein.
Someone hasn't done his/her homework if they discuss this.
Thus Eric, it's no use discuss stupid assumptions with Soren. Had he read
1/10 of the Dissertations in History and/or in Religion dealing with Adam of
Bremen and/or Svein Estridson then he would have known how obscure his
assumption is.
Inger E
>
David B.
"Helluland" and "Halgoland":
Soren Larsen wrote in message ...
>
>And he might be further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which
>he mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
>(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
Probably not a lot- he locates "Heiligland" quite accurately, and could
never mistake it for a place so far north that it gets midnight sun.
>Then there is the fact that he places Iceland to the north of Britain
>(Descriptio 36)
To be fair, he quotes that from Pytheas' sailing instructions to Thule.
> and Greenland to the north of Norway (North of the montes Riphea),
>(Descriptio 37)
I'm troubled by the language he uses here: "contra montes Suediae vel
Riphea iuga" does not as such imply "north", but perhaps "opposite". Given
that he goes on to observe that it is "a littore Nortmannorum vela pandi
quinque aut septem diebus, quemadmodum ad Island", I wonder if he is
suggesting a constant-latitude voyage from somewhere like Tromso, which
would pretty much hit the closest point in Greenland to the Scandiavian
mainland (Cape Brewster)- a journey not much further than to Iceland.
>For Adam it must have looked like this from west to east:
>
>Iceland-Greenland-Halagland-Vinland
I think for his original informant it was, quite properly, in order of
arrival on a voyage from Scandinavia, but Adam's other information on
(probably) Halogaland, which he seems not to mention separately*, confused
him completely.
*And which, if my geography is correct, ironically includes the Riphea
mountains
Seppo Renfors
Don't worry your little head over me, I would rather talk to
intelligent people anyway.
Seppo Renfors
erilar wrote:
>
> In article <3f422e7b$0$52121$a046...@nnrp.fuse.net>, "David"
> <dro...@fuse.net> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Exactly. It's necessary from time to time to refute errors, so
> > > literal killfiling by everyone really isn't a good idea.
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Brian
> >
> > Just don't engage in discussion with the likes of Inger or Seppo. Doing
> > so only feeds
> > their egos by affording them the attention they crave, uses up band width
> > and runs off
> > others who may have worthwhile views to air.
> >
> >
>
> I've quit even reading replies to Seppo, Hines, and a couple others, but
> replies to Inger retain their horrid fascination.
Yes indeed it did, it ran away to hide in Coward's Castle the INSTANT
I asked her to back up a claim she made...... but then I'm not
surprised.
Seppo Renfors
No? Keeping you busy picking on me instead of someone else.... and you
are STILL pissed off that you cannot failed to understand the meaning
of the word "first", while pretending to be a linguist... :-)
Eric Stevens
<Ren...@not.ollis.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>"Brian M. Scott" wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:04:38 -0400, "David" <dro...@fuse.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> Exactly. It's necessary from time to time to refute errors, so
>> >> literal killfiling by everyone really isn't a good idea.
>>
>> >Just don't engage in discussion with the likes of Inger or Seppo. Doing so only feeds
>> >their egos by affording them the attention they crave, uses up band width and runs off
>> >others who may have worthwhile views to air.
>>
>> It isn't precisely discussion, but occasionally the back and
>> forth amuses me. It was a complete waste of time arguing with
>> Steve Whittet back in the day, but it was good fun, because his
>> notions of history were just plain bizarre. Besides, Steve often
>> gave references, and you could have fun explaining why they were
>> worthless or why they didn't say what he thought the said. Inger
>> approaches his standard of looniness, but owing to her
>> evasiveness she's not nearly as amusing. (Seppo, on the other
>> hand, appears to have no redeeming features.)
>
>No? Keeping you busy picking on me instead of someone else.... and you
>are STILL pissed off that you cannot failed to understand the meaning
>of the word "first", while pretending to be a linguist... :-)
Umm ... I think you will find he is a mathematician: teaches
statistics, no less.
Eric Stevens
Brian M. Scott
<inger_e....@telia.com> wrote:
[...]
>You better remember:
>"Die Wichtigkeit oder Bedeutung eines Problems hängt immer auch von
>subjektiven bewer tendens Elementen ab."
>Vollmer Gerhard, Wissenschaftstheorie im Einsatz, Stuttgart 1993, page 17.
>In other words(obs not direct translation) subjective elements are always an
>importance when you are as a scientist work with a problem/question.
Even allowing for considerable freedom in the paraphrase, yours
is a completely different statement from Gerhard's. He actually
says that the importance or significance of a problem always
depends on subjective evaluative elements, not that such elements
are always important when working with a problem.
[...]
Renia
> David wrote:
> Don't worry your little head over me, I would rather talk to
> intelligent people anyway.
But would intelligent people want to talk to you? You show now sign of
having much intelligence, only anger.
Renia
Soren Larsen
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:T%w0b.24831$dP1....@newsc.telia.net...
>
> "Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
> news:ej35kv4apl3v2e2vc...@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:11:07 +0200, "Soren Larsen"
<soh...@tiscali.dk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >And he might me further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which he
> > >mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
> > >(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
> >
> > But surely he would have known enough about Helgoland to not confuse
> > it with mysterious places in the far north?
>
> Well if Adam of Bremen didn't know where Helgoland was, which he
definitely
> knew since he had visited Helgoland himself,
If you actually bothered to read Descriptio, you would find that Adam
has
his information on Helgoland from Vita Sancti Willibrodi, a story about
an
bishop Eilbert of Funen and some rumours - Adam says so himself.
Since we only have two other sources besides Historia Hammaburgensis
Ecclesiae to Adams life and none of them puts him on Helgoland we
can confidently conclude that you are lying again.
>Svein Estridsson at least knew
> from own experience Helgoland, Halogaland and Helluland.....
Never mind that you are lying.
What is interesting is that you are so bleeding stupid that you actually
seem to accept that Halagland and Helluland are two different places.
They of course are, but your slim chance for having a king visiting
Helluland
and thereby North America was to claim that Adam was writing
Halagland for Helluland.
>When ever
> someone, scholar or non-scholar, suggest such rediculus assumption
that Adam
> of Bremen didn't know where Helgoland was located and that Svein
Estridson
> didn't know what he talked about -
If you had followed the discussion you would have noticed that we are
discussing
Adams worldview not Sveins.
>that someone only show lack of interest
> to study the Prime sources and background information for Adam
They would be?
I shall of course post the ansver - just two sources besides HHE -
if you fail to provide it.
>respective
> Svein.
> Someone hasn't done his/her homework if they discuss this.
So right you are
> Thus Eric, it's no use discuss stupid assumptions with Soren. Had he
read
> 1/10 of the Dissertations in History and/or in Religion dealing with
Adam of
> Bremen and/or Svein Estridson then he would have known how obscure his
> assumption is.
Maybe Eric likes to discuss with someone who has actually read HHE.
Soren Larsen
Soren Larsen
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i en meddelelse
news:ej35kv4apl3v2e2vc...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:11:07 +0200, "Soren Larsen" <soh...@tiscali.dk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >And he might me further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which he
> >mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
> >(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
>
> But surely he would have known enough about Helgoland to not confuse
> it with mysterious places in the far north?
He has Helgoland in the right position but it might contribute to the
confusion since Heiligland/Helgoland and Halagland/Halogaland
basically has the same etymology (Holy Land) according to Adam
>
> I have somewhere a copy of a map made by Johannes Meyer which showed
> the extent of Helgoland in 1300 AD and again in 800 AD. Like all of
> the islands along the Frisian coast Helgoland had reduced considerably
> in size over that period. From memory, at one time the island had 36
> parishes and it is unlikely that Adalbert would not know about it.
> >
> >Then there is the fact that he places Iceland to the north of Britain
> >(Descriptio 36) and Greenland to the north of Norway (North of the
> > montes Riphea), (Descriptio 37)
>
> This is not entirely surprising. In those days it was not realised the
> magnetic and geographic north poles were not the same. With the aid of
> a globe one can see that for people in the region of Scandinavia,
> north of England etc, http://geo.phys.uit.no/articl/magnorpe.gif
> gives an idea of the situation. The ancient location of the magnetic
> pole circa 1100 AD appears to be somewhat uncertain. I have seen maps
> which place it as far south as Hudsons Bay.
Somehow I dont think Adam was very concerned with the magnetic pole.
Soren Larsen
> Concerning a possible confusion in Adam of Bremen's work between
> "Helluland" and "Halgoland":
>
> Soren Larsen wrote in message ...
> >
> >And he might be further confused by Heiligland/Helgoland which
> >he mentions in Descriptio 3 and is mentioned in a marginal note
> >(skolion) in Descriptio 10.
>
> Probably not a lot- he locates "Heiligland" quite accurately, and
could
> never mistake it for a place so far north that it gets midnight sun.
Right! But It might make him doubt his information on the name.
Heiligland and Halagland means the same.
>
> >Then there is the fact that he places Iceland to the north of Britain
> >(Descriptio 36)
>
> To be fair, he quotes that from Pytheas' sailing instructions to
Thule.
Most of his information is a rip off and adaption of ancient
ethnographers
and geographers. But every once in a while he strikes gold. That bit of
info on Vinland is a nugget.
>
> > and Greenland to the north of Norway (North of the montes Riphea),
> >(Descriptio 37)
>
> I'm troubled by the language he uses here: "contra montes Suediae vel
> Riphea iuga" does not as such imply "north", but perhaps "opposite".
Given
> that he goes on to observe that it is "a littore Nortmannorum vela
pandi
> quinque aut septem diebus, quemadmodum ad Island", I wonder if he is
> suggesting a constant-latitude voyage from somewhere like Tromso,
which
> would pretty much hit the closest point in Greenland to the
Scandiavian
> mainland (Cape Brewster)- a journey not much further than to Iceland.
That could what his informanrt was trying to convey. It would be very
consistent with the sailing directions from Norway to Greenland in
Landnamabook.
But Adam has the Ripean mountains in "Finnish" teritory east of Sweden;
Descriptio 25 and skolion in Descriptio 24.
This means that the Norwegian westcoast is out of the question since
this
at the time was settled by Norse and definitely not east of Sweden.
Northern and inland Sc was on the other hand occupied by Finns/Saami
so a position to the north of Norway/Finland seems to be what Adam had
in mind.
>
> >For Adam it must have looked like this from west to east:
> >
> >Iceland-Greenland-Halagland-Vinland
>
> I think for his original informant it was, quite properly, in order of
> arrival on a voyage from Scandinavia,
Agreed
> but Adam's other information on
> (probably) Halogaland, which he seems not to mention separately*,
confused
> him completely.
Not to mention that he was working like a little devil to fit the
ancient writers in.
>
>
> *And which, if my geography is correct, ironically includes the Riphea
> mountains
THey were mentioned by Orosius AFAIK so they had to be somewhere ;-)
Cheers
Soren Larsen
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>> This is not entirely surprising. In those days it was not realised the
>> magnetic and geographic north poles were not the same. With the aid of
>> a globe one can see that for people in the region of Scandinavia,
>> north of England etc, http://geo.phys.uit.no/articl/magnorpe.gif
>> gives an idea of the situation. The ancient location of the magnetic
>> pole circa 1100 AD appears to be somewhat uncertain. I have seen maps
>> which place it as far south as Hudsons Bay.
>
>Somehow I dont think Adam was very concerned with the magnetic pole.
I don't expect that he was but his sources of information may have
been.
It has been suggested by some(mentioned in
http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSViking.html ) that the magnetic compass
may have arrived in European hands earlier than is generally
recognised and that it's use was concealed for reasons ranging from
desire to preserve a commercial advantage and desire to avoid charges
of witchcraft.
It is only possible that the magnetic compass was in use by the time
of Adam but, if it was, it is to be expected that it's users would
make the same mistake about the direction of north as is evidenced by
those early mapmakers who most definitely were relying on a magnetic
compass for north finding.
Eric Stevens
Inger Johansson
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:ipo7kv82lag6l9pe4...@4ax.com...
There is a 1200's map which show that they had knowledge that Greenland was
'on the other side' but that they believed that the ice-belt in north and
the ice-belt north-east Greenland 'were in contact' with each other.
Inger E
>
>
>
> Eric Stevens
David B.
>
>news:bhu866$g3e$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>>"north", but perhaps "opposite". Given that he goes on to
>>observe that it is "a littore Nortmannorum vela pandi quinque
>>aut septem diebus, quemadmodum ad Island", I wonder if he is
>>suggesting a constant-latitude voyage from somewhere like Tromso,
>>which would pretty much hit the closest point in Greenland to the
>>Scandiavian mainland (Cape Brewster)- a journey not much
>>further than to Iceland.
>
>consistent with the sailing directions from Norway to Greenland in
>Landnamabook.
>
>But Adam has the Ripean mountains in "Finnish" teritory east of Sweden;
> Descriptio 25 and skolion in Descriptio 24.
Having found rather a shortage of mountains in Finland proper and noting a
further element of confusion in his words in Descriptio 36 (which I'd
translate as "the ridge of the Swedish or Riphea mountains") I took that to
mean Finnmark. The claim in Skolion 132 that "Halsingland est regio
Scritefinnorum, sita in Ripheis montibus, ubi nix perpetua durat" really
doesn't fit most of Finland in terms of either topography or climate.
Possibly "Halsingland" is yet another confusion, and this is the
description which actually belongs to Halogaland !
>They were mentioned by Orosius AFAIK
But irksomely, not by Ohthere, who actually knew what he was talking about
:-(
Erik Hammerstad
There was a similar interesting discussion on the ONN back in 1998,
see in particular
http://www.hum.gu.se/arkiv/ONN/1998onn/II/msg00591.html
Inger D may protest, but Adam is obviously not a primary source on
Norse geography, allthough he may be a prime.
Seppo Renfors
Now that's really done it..... :-)
I was aware he is merely an amateur "linguist" - hence "Pretend" -
which doesn't alter that he failed to understand the word "first"....
and that's problematic even for maths!
Seppo Renfors
Yes I'm definitely angry over your and other's wanton vilification and
gang attacks - there is NO excuse for such. You are right I am
intolerant of the INTOLERANT and make no apologies for it either!
David B
>
>There was a similar interesting discussion on the ONN back in 1998,
>see in particular
> http://www.hum.gu.se/arkiv/ONN/1998onn/II/msg00591.html
Yes, Adam's "other Wineland" does seem to be Wendland, given the
connections in the text with places like Denmark and Schleswig.
>Adam is obviously not a primary source on
>Norse geography, allthough he may be a prime.
Very true...
Renia
> Renia wrote:
> >
> > Seppo Renfors <Ren...@not.ollis.net.au> wrote in message news:<3F430FAD...@not.ollis.net.au>...
> > > David wrote:
>
> > > Don't worry your little head over me, I would rather talk to
> > > intelligent people anyway.
> >
> > But would intelligent people want to talk to you? You show now sign of
> > having much intelligence, only anger.
>
>
> Yes I'm definitely angry over your and other's wanton vilification and
> gang attacks - there is NO excuse for such. You are right I am
> intolerant of the INTOLERANT and make no apologies for it either!
Criticisms are not attacks. That is, they are not intended to be. If
you interpret criticisms as attacks, then that is your problem, and
rather sad.
Renia
Michael Kuettner
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ErE%a.20224$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
>
> "Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i meddelandet
> news:bhme8q$vlmh$1...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:_2f%a.20102$mU6....@newsb.telia.net...
> > > IVAR BARDSON -PART 3
> > <snip>
> > > Chapter 1.
> > > The Icelandic Sagas weren't the first to tell the world about
Greenland
> > and
> > > Vinland. The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic
information
> is
> > > the letter from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen
> >
> > It's archbishop of Hamburg _and_ Bremen, bonehead.
> >
> > > Pope Leo IX wrote "...in omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum,
> > Norunechorum,
> > > Islant, Scrideuinnum, Gronlant et universarum septentrionalum
racionum"
> > >
> > No mention of Vinland here.
> > We've been through this in sci.archaeology in February.
> > The thread shows that our little fuckhead knows no Latin.
>
> We have been thru that you neither are a Medieval Historian, that's
correct.
Neither are you, so what ?
> We have also been thru that you can't read the text, that's correct.
No, my little bonehead.
The thread sent you scurrying away like the little rat you are, as always.
Let me jog your memory :
start cite :
--------------------------------------------
"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:b3383b$beu$1...@rex.ip-plus.net...
>
> "Inger E Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:ZcU4a.866$ID6....@newsc.telia.net...
> > Robert,
> > you have just made a fool of yourself - you have used Roman Age Latin
> Very well.
> You'll only have to post the correct translation; you needn't even
explain
> Robert's errors.
>
> <start quote Inger>
> "protegente Dei gratia uidelicet episcopus in
> omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum, Noruuechorum, Islant, Scrideuinnum,
> Gronlant et uniuersarum septentrionalium nationum nec non etiam in illis
> partibus Schlauorum"
> <end quote Inger>
>
> Just your translation.
>
Still no answer ? You can't translate the sentence ?
What's the matter ?
--------------------------------
end cite.
This started with your post :
5QV2a.105$ID6...@newsc.telia.net from 2003-02-13 15:26:13 PST;
where you showed your shitty Latin :
start quote :
-----------------------------
In January 6th 1053 Pope Leo IX wrote a letter to Adalbert Archbishop of
Hamburg Bremen "...in omnibus gentibus Sueonum seu Danorum, Norunechorum,
Islant, Scrideuinnum, Gronlant et universarum septentrionalum racionum" In
other words Pope Leo IX acknowledge in the far outer parts of the Ocean was
Greenland and the land further beyond that close to the border to the
Universe.
-----------------------------
end quote.
IOW, you're not only reposting garbage here, but show that you are unable
to learn.
Anybody not acquainted with Ingwers lies and ignorance can easily read the
whole thread :
Subject: The Norse Greenlanders in sci.archaeology.
> Had you
> read the discussion texts around the diploma you would have known that
> scholars of Religion as well as scholars of History speaks of the
> 'outher'(my English translation, I have text in Latin and Swedish) part
as
> if NA is thought of.
Since your English is as shitty as your Latin, your "translation" is
worthless
- as always.
And what should "outher" mean ?
More Inglish ?
> Never the less IF you had learnt to read English you would have seen that
I
> said:
>
> "The earliest source we today know for Greenlandic information is the
letter
> from Pope Leo IX to Adalbert, Archbishop of Hamburg Bremen
There's no such thing as "Hamburg Bremen".
You aren't even able to get a name right, little bonehead.
> "........"An other
> early information about Greenland and Vinland we have from Adam of
Bremen."
>
That's a cite from what ?
> Had you been a Medieval scholar of a scholar of Religion you would have
> known that the Icelandic Sagas were written long there after.
>
More gibberish.
If you can't write understandable English, fuck off to Swedish newsgroups.
> Information for others:
> * Ari Thorgilsson dead 1148, Landnámabók written the first half of 12th
c.
> He is often referred to as more trustworthy then the other. Well that can
be
> disputed. I did so in my D-essay
How many trees died for that worthless piece of junk ?
> and I do so in my book,
Don't let us detain you.
Bugger off and write your "book".
> no matter what
> conclusion you will arrive at after reading my analyse of the Landnámabók
The conclusion is obvious : You're a clown.
<snip>
> Conclusion the earliest document that present information about Greenland
> and/or Vinland are the two I referred to
> in my Ivar Bardson - part 3.
>
Another worthless waste of innocent electrons.
> Since the rest of Michael K's lines show exactly the same invalid
comments
> and inaccuracy as his try to attack my choice of sources, the rest of his
> lines may rest in peace.
>
Ah - trying to wiggle out again, my little rat ?
Let us restore the snipped part :
->start insert
> An other early information about Greenland and Vinland we have from Adam
of
> Bremen. In 1070's, more than 50 years before the first Icelandic writer
> wrote about Vinland he gave information he had had from King Svein
> Estridson[Denmark] who while serving in his relative's the Swedish King's
> hird had participated on a Norwegian sailing to Vinland.
Source ?
> In chapter 38 of
> his book Adam of Bremen write about Halogaland that the same summer- and
> midwinter solstice was to be seen in Halogaland as in the land of the
Sweons
> and the Northland[Norway].
>
So what ? Still no Vinland.
<snip>
> McGovern wrote: "The archaeological data indicate that the Norse
> Greenlanders did invest a great deal of their source resources in
> churchconstruction, and that the most powerful economic unit of the later
> Norse Greenland was the manor at Garðar." [McGovern, page 222].
>
So McGovern is another dyslexic Swede ?
"Source resources" ?
And you DARE to put that into quotation marks ?
And "McGovern, page 222" is no cite, you pseudo-scholar.
-> end insert
Still no answers, you pseudo-scholar ?
Inger Johansson
I don't jump when you say jump.
Contrary would be more likely.
Good Night.
PLONK!!!!
Inger E
"Michael Kuettner" <mik...@eunet.at> skrev i meddelandet
news:bi33gp$4pi4m$1...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de...
Philip Deitiker
news:xv81b.20789$mU6....@newsb.telia.net:
> Michael,
> I don't jump when you say jump.
> Contrary would be more likely.
The running argument is whether you might even know what the
word "jump" means.
--
DNApaleoAnth at Att dot net
Inger Johansson
"Philip Deitiker" <NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns93DEA1...@128.249.2.19...
Philip, if I may call you so,
you're one xxx in the xxx,
but you have one advantage over Michael,
you are at least known to have been able to read comprehend and analyse a
study or a paper from a study.
Might be long ago,
sounds like it,
but still better than the Michael fellow who has nothing, had nothing and
never will have anything worth mentioning in those fields!
Inger E
>
Philip Deitiker
> Philip, if I may call you so,
> you're one xxx in the xxx,
I'm too hurt.
> but you have one advantage over Michael,
> you are at least known to have been able to read comprehend and analyse a
> study or a paper from a study.
> Might be long ago,
> sounds like it,
> but still better than the Michael fellow who has nothing, had nothing and
> never will have anything worth mentioning in those fields!
I read more papers in one week than you read in one year.
I've reject more papers in one year than you will read in your lifetime
(including things you think are published but are not).
Difference between some here and me. They waste alot of time arguing
with you trying to help you know how you are wrong. Nasty as I am I think
you are hopeless in this regard and they would do themselves good not to
respond to you.
Michael Kuettner
> Michael,
> I don't jump when you say jump.
> Contrary would be more likely.
>
> Good Night.
> PLONK!!!!
>
And she still was unable to answer a single point.
Still nobody at home between her ears.
I leave the rest below intact so that everyone can
form his own opinion on Ingwers "scholarship".
Michael Kuettner
"Philip Deitiker" <NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Xns93DEA1...@128.249.2.19...
> In sci.archaeology, Inger Johansson created a message ID
> news:xv81b.20789$mU6....@newsb.telia.net:
>
> > Michael,
> > I don't jump when you say jump.
> > Contrary would be more likely.
>
> The running argument is whether you might even know what the
> word "jump" means.
What argument ?
As I haven't found a single area where she doesn't fail dismally,
I still wonder whether she can breathe without supervising ;-)
Cheers,
Michael Kuettner
Inger Johansson
"Philip Deitiker" <NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> skrev i meddelandet
> In sci.archaeology, Inger Johansson created a message ID
> news:NMa1b.25085$dP1....@newsc.telia.net:
>
> > Philip, if I may call you so,
> > you're one xxx in the xxx,
>
> I'm too hurt.
>
> > but you have one advantage over Michael,
> > you are at least known to have been able to read comprehend and analyse
a
> > study or a paper from a study.
> > Might be long ago,
> > sounds like it,
> > but still better than the Michael fellow who has nothing, had nothing
and
> > never will have anything worth mentioning in those fields!
>
> I read more papers in one week than you read in one year.
I cought you with a lie! That is absolutely untrue. I never read less then
10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From page to
page. Don't try to tell us you read 3650 papers ever single day!
You are getting old.
> I've reject more papers in one year than you will read in your lifetime
> (including things you think are published but are not).
> Difference between some here and me. They waste alot of time arguing
> with you trying to help you know how you are wrong. Nasty as I am I think
> you are hopeless in this regard and they would do themselves good not to
> respond to you.
Contrary old man,
contrary,
but then again you have placed yourself in a corner from where no new roads
open up.
Inger E
>
Philip Deitiker
> I cought you with a lie!
you cough me with a lie? Where a mask next time and it won't spread.
> That is absolutely untrue. I never read less
> then 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From
> page to page. Don't try to tell us you read 3650 papers ever single
> day! You are getting old.
In science the National Enquirer, Daily Sun, Star, Alien Invaders and any
other source of loon-toon information does not count as primary
literature. Primary literature are papers sent to journals, which should
then be refereed by 2 peers and resent to the editor. Tabloids,
newspapers and toilet paper doesn't count. If it did there would be a
shit-load of psuedos (like yourself) flooding science with all kinds
crappy papers.
>> I've reject more papers in one year than you will read in your
>> lifetime (including things you think are published but are not).
>> Difference between some here and me. They waste alot of time arguing
>> with you trying to help you know how you are wrong. Nasty as I am I
>> think you are hopeless in this regard and they would do themselves
>> good not to respond to you.
>
> Contrary old man,
> contrary, but then again you have placed yourself in a corner from
> where no new roads open up.
You are one totally screwed lady, Inger.
Philip Deitiker
news:bi3hg9$4uhqs$2...@ID-202433.news.uni-berlin.de:
> What argument ?
> As I haven't found a single area where she doesn't fail dismally,
> I still wonder whether she can breathe without supervising ;-)
Abdominal Quaffing?
Inger Johansson
"Philip Deitiker" <NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> skrev i meddelandet
I guess I would have lived up to your standard if I had been. Unfortunatly
for you - I am not screwed. I am as normal as can be.
Inger E
David B.
Soren Larsen wrote in message ...
>
> Descriptio 25 and skolion in Descriptio 24.
Further investigation leaves me less surprised about the mysterious Ripean
mountains. There's a handy summary at
http://www.apollonius.net/rhipaean.html which makes it plain that their
location really did depend entirely on who you asked- and probably even on
what question you asked- so it would be quite possible for Adam of Bremen
to locate them in two different places.
Geography was clearly not one of his strong points.
Erik Hammerstad
Nope, normal people do not post 1000+ messages on Usenet per year
(most of it crap but never mind), plus have a job (never mind its
just as a primary school teacher, that's not abnormal though), plus
writing a book, plus being part of a family (well that's normal),
but the combination... And in addition to that - claiming also to be
a scholar - that's _not_ normal!
Eric Stevens
If you go to the URL you have given above and then go on to the home
page for the site you finish up at
http://www.apollonius.net/cosmictree.html
I've only skimmed the articles listed there but the author, Rob
Solàrion, appears to be a follower of Velikovsky, Sitchin and others
of that ilk. I would not take his opinions on the location of the
Ripean mountains as necessarily the last word on the subject.
Eric Stevens
David B.
>On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:23:10 +0100, "David B."
><da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Further investigation leaves me less surprised about the mysterious
Ripean
>>mountains. There's a handy summary at
>> http://www.apollonius.net/rhipaean.html which makes it plain that their
>>location really did depend entirely on who you asked- and probably even
on
>>what question you asked
>
>page for the site you finish up at
> http://www.apollonius.net/cosmictree.html
Yes, that did give me pause for a moment, but the bulk of the page I
referred to consists of quotations from an old and, to the best of my
knowledge, not particularly eccentric reference book, which Mr Soląrion
chooses to treat with caution.
>I've only skimmed the articles listed there but the author, Rob
>Soląrion, appears to be a follower of Velikovsky, Sitchin and others
>of that ilk. I would not take his opinions on the location of the
>Ripean mountains as necessarily the last word on the subject.
Agreed, which is why I consider the page useful, because it contains so
little of Soląrion's own opinion.
Philip Deitiker
> I guess I would have lived up to your standard if I had been.
The only standard I have is that people who claim to be deep into science
reference the primary literature ever now and then. Since I have never seen
you reference a single paper from a single refereed journal you have yet to
reach any agreed upon scientific standard.
> Unfortunatly for you - I am not screwed. I am as normal as can be.
ROFLMFAO.
Yes, Inger and my name is Santa Claus, I live near you and I frequently go
to sweden to gather reindeer. You bring new meaning to the word 'clueless'.
Inger Johansson
"David B." <da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:bi6700$7b8$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
May I ask why no one of you go back to the Medieval documents where the
Ripean mountains are described in details?
Inger E
>
Inger Johansson
"Philip Deitiker" <NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> skrev i meddelandet
> In sci.archaeology, Inger Johansson created a message ID
> news:KIr1b.20900$mU6....@newsb.telia.net:
>
> > I guess I would have lived up to your standard if I had been.
>
> The only standard I have is that people who claim to be deep into science
> reference the primary literature ever now and then. Since I have never
seen
> you reference a single paper from a single refereed journal you have yet
to
> reach any agreed upon scientific standard.
Philip,
I didn't know you were blind.
Poor old man who can't read a paper, message or article to the end.
It's sad, of course it is
Inger E
Drew Nicholson
news:Xns93DF6E...@128.249.2.19...
> >
> > Contrary old man,
> > contrary, but then again you have placed yourself in a corner from
> > where no new roads open up.
>
> You are one totally screwed lady, Inger.
Yeah, but it's actually one of her more poetic turns of phrase. I may steal
it.
Seppo Renfors
Renia wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors <Ren...@not.ollis.net.au> wrote in message news:<3F44739D...@not.ollis.net.au>...
> > Renia wrote:
> > >
> > > Seppo Renfors <Ren...@not.ollis.net.au> wrote in message news:<3F430FAD...@not.ollis.net.au>...
> > > > David wrote:
> >
> > > > Don't worry your little head over me, I would rather talk to
> > > > intelligent people anyway.
> > >
> > > But would intelligent people want to talk to you? You show now sign of
> > > having much intelligence, only anger.
> >
> >
> > Yes I'm definitely angry over your and other's wanton vilification and
> > gang attacks - there is NO excuse for such. You are right I am
> > intolerant of the INTOLERANT and make no apologies for it either!
>
> Criticisms are not attacks. That is, they are not intended to be. If
> you interpret criticisms as attacks, then that is your problem, and
> rather sad.
>
You know Renia, you really have to get a better grip on reality -
there is a HUGE difference between criticism of the person, instead of
the issues presented. Your "criticism" of the person are not justified
no matter what you may believe.
I just marked 8 posts as read by the following people that were pure
ad hominem attacking the person.
Michael Kuettner
Philip Deitiker
Erik Hammerstad
YOU have been observed engaging in the same kind of pack attacks in
sympathy with the likes of that gang.
David B
>
>May I ask why no one of you go back to the Medieval documents where the
>Ripean mountains are described in details?
What about the Classical documents (e.g. Ptolemy's geography and Pliny the
Elder's Natural History) which I did look at before finding a later
explanation of the problem? They describe the Ripean mountains in detail.
Sawfish
Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
[sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From page
to page."
Does it appear to others, as well as to myself, that this rather admirable
regimen is patently impossible? Even with the aid of powerful stimulants?
Something's got to give...
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If we use Occam's Razor, whose razor will *he* use?" --Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
erilar
> Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
> [sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From page
> to page."
"Page to page" could just mean a page or two in each, of course...
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
Sawfish
>In article <10616519...@q7.q7.com>, Sawfish <m...@q7.com> wrote:
>> Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
>> [sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From page
>> to page."
>"Page to page" could just mean a page or two in each, of course...
So you think she meant to convey that she is *skimming* 10 newspapers per
day?
For god's sake. You sure haven't read many of her posts, have you?
Seppo Renfors
Sawfish wrote:
>
> erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> writes:
>
> >In article <10616519...@q7.q7.com>, Sawfish <m...@q7.com> wrote:
>
> >> Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
> >> [sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From page
> >> to page."
>
> >"Page to page" could just mean a page or two in each, of course...
>
> So you think she meant to convey that she is *skimming* 10 newspapers per
> day?
>
> For god's sake. You sure haven't read many of her posts, have you?
Oh come on, she is in there with mindless bitching and cattiness often
enough - but no valuable contribution ever!!
erilar
> erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> writes:
>
> >In article <10616519...@q7.q7.com>, Sawfish <m...@q7.com> wrote:
>
> >> Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
> >> [sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From
> >> page
> >> to page."
>
>
> >"Page to page" could just mean a page or two in each, of course...
>
> So you think she meant to convey that she is *skimming* 10 newspapers per
> day?
>
> For god's sake. You sure haven't read many of her posts, have you?
Of course not. Just commenting on the wording. 8-) She wouldn't have
time to do that, insult anyone in several groups who points out her
errors and/or disagrees with her, somehow earn a living, and sleep even
a few hours, even if she were a non-dyslexic speed reader.
Inger Johansson
you are no scholar of History. Nor are you an honest person actually you are
lying - I have never insulted a person for 'pointing out' I have answered on
insults, abuse as well as when people try to make fun of me because I happen
to be dyslextic!!!
You haven't written one single line where you haven't abused me or picked on
me. I never ever will understand how a person can behave so badly as you
done and continue to do below!
Inger E
"erilar" <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:erilarloFRY-44D5...@news.airstreamcomm.net...
gblack
--
"Inger Johansson" <inger_e....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:vB52b.25466$dP1....@newsc.telia.net...
: erilar,
: you are no scholar of History. Nor are you an honest person actually
you are
: lying - I have never insulted a person for 'pointing out' I have
answered on
: insults, abuse as well as when people try to make fun of me because
I happen
: to be dyslextic!!!
:
: You haven't written one single line where you haven't abused me or
picked on
: me. I never ever will understand how a person can behave so badly as
you
: done and continue to do below!
:
:
Well well well, it will be interesting watching inger backtrack on her
accusing some-one of lying !
and all those mounted upon mules coming to the rescue
Eric Stevens
<NOpd...@bcm.tmc.eduSPAM> wrote:
>In sci.archaeology, Inger Johansson created a message ID
>news:KIr1b.20900$mU6....@newsb.telia.net:
>
>> I guess I would have lived up to your standard if I had been.
>
>The only standard I have is that people who claim to be deep into science
>reference the primary literature ever now and then. Since I have never seen
>you reference a single paper from a single refereed journal you have yet to
>reach any agreed upon scientific standard.
This means that you will never recognise a new field until after it is
established.
In Inger's case, she claims to be relying on the source documents. Why
then should you want her to go to a second-hand account of their
contents, whether published in refereed journal or not?
>
>> Unfortunatly for you - I am not screwed. I am as normal as can be.
>
>ROFLMFAO.
>
>Yes, Inger and my name is Santa Claus, I live near you and I frequently go
>to sweden to gather reindeer. You bring new meaning to the word 'clueless'.
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
<da...@tronospamchos.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I hope you don't think I was contradicting the contents of the URL.
For a start, I don't really know enough to do so. All I was saying was
that if knowledge of the location of the Ripean Mountains becomes
important then I would recommend checking further.
Eric Stevens
Inger Johansson
contrary to some other Philip can be excused for being old stubborn and very
abusive to many people. No use spending more time on an old horse who's done
his.
Inger E
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:018ikvkiq5r5hi145...@4ax.com...
Seppo Renfors
erilar wrote:
>
> In article <10616973...@q7.q7.com>, Sawfish <m...@q7.com> wrote:
>
> > erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> writes:
> >
> > >In article <10616519...@q7.q7.com>, Sawfish <m...@q7.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Let's not forget to add to that formidable list "never read less then
> > >> [sic] 10 papers(newspapers + scientific papers) ever single day. From
> > >> page
> > >> to page."
> >
> >
> > >"Page to page" could just mean a page or two in each, of course...
> >
> > So you think she meant to convey that she is *skimming* 10 newspapers per
> > day?
> >
> > For god's sake. You sure haven't read many of her posts, have you?
>
> Of course not.
...yet there is its, bitching and whining, and being catty..... and
she doesn't even CARE TO READ what it bitches about.... Hmmm there is
a net fandangled term floating around "Flashmobbing" and this one
certainly participates in that!
[snip remainder of cattiness, the "MEEEEOOOWWWWWWWRRRRRRR" stuff]