Standards for bibleland
Matt Giwer
These newsgroups are on history and archaeology. Neither has anything to do
with the bible nor bible scholarship. As such references to bible scholars
have no standing in either newsgroup.
Following from this EXCLUSION of what the bible really means gibberish is the
definition of the word "same" in these newsgroups. For archaeology the word is
clearly defined as are the criteria for establishing it. The standard for the
identification of the discovery by Schliemann being the same as Troy requires
it be established the city found at the right depth/age to match the Iliad
must physically match the description in the Iliad.
This is exactly the same criteria which applies to finding "Israel" or
"Judah" as described in the OT. It has to match down to the size of city walls
as it does right now for Troy. That is what same means in archaeology. There
are no exceptions for religious traditions. The criteria for Troy applies
without modification.
At the moment I do not have a good example of the criteria of "same" from
history as this intrusion of myth upon history only exists because of the bible.
--
If a gay kills a gay is it a love crime?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4178
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Wed Oct 7 02:38:20 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
> This is exactly the same criteria which applies to finding "Israel"
> or "Judah" as described in the OT. It has to match down to the size of
> city walls as it does right now for Troy. That is what same means in
> archaeology. There are no exceptions for religious traditions. The
> criteria for Troy applies without modification.
Before it starts, yes, I know believers will take this as an opportunity to
willfully misrepresent Schliemann and Troy solely to find an equal exception
for their bible fictions. There is no protection from idiots.
--
A real American only needs one finger while an Englishman requires two.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4176
http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a2
Wed Oct 7 02:58:23 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
...
> At the moment I do not have a good example of the criteria of "same"
> from history as this intrusion of myth upon history only exists because
> of the bible.
I can point out the unanimous opinion that Herodotus is the father of history.
Exactly NO ONE attributes the invention of history to the authors of the OT.
Even in the best intellectual compartmentalization of religion separate from
reality no one crosses the line tracing the invention of history to the
authors of the OT. The reason is quite simple. No one can trace bible stories
to real history because there is no history in the OT.
--
The professional religious class has more committed atheists
than all the secular humanists combined.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4183
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9
Thu Oct 8 06:05:13 EDT 2009
Tom P
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> ...
>> At the moment I do not have a good example of the criteria of
>> "same" from history as this intrusion of myth upon history only exists
>> because of the bible.
>
> I can point out the unanimous opinion that Herodotus is the father
> of history.
>
> Exactly NO ONE attributes the invention of history to the authors of
> the OT.
>
> Even in the best intellectual compartmentalization of religion
> separate from reality no one crosses the line tracing the invention of
> history to the authors of the OT. The reason is quite simple. No one
> can trace bible stories to real history because there is no history in
> the OT.
>
And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
to drum up any action on Usenet.
Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
theories. So why are you here, exactly?
George
> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>
> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>
> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
him?
Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
Matt Giwer
> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it scoured
the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus. That debunks the
Torah which is the foundation of Judaism. Archaeology debunked Abraham more
than a century ago.
> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
> him?
What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious traditions? Do you
think he can succeed?
> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians. Jews are followers of
Judaism and nothing more. Atheists cannot be Jews. People can ony be "born"
Jewish because of a teaching of Judaism. Atheists do not follow Judaism
therefore cannot believe they were born Jews. Want to try claiming Jews are an
ethnic group?
Just who do you think I am "biased" against? What kind of perverted world
view do you have which has such primitive, simplistic ideas?
--
What is the difference between testing a god who will not be tested and a
god that is of stone?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4194
http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/sewer-bible.phtml a15
Tue Oct 13 00:23:43 EDT 2009
Martin Edwards
> George wrote:
>> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
>>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
>>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
>>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
>
>> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
>
> Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it
> scoured the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus.
> That debunks the Torah which is the foundation of Judaism. Archaeology
> debunked Abraham more than a century ago.
>
>> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
>> him?
>
> What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious
> traditions? Do you think he can succeed?
>
>> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
>
> Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians.
Indo-Europeans are not Caucasian, nor are all Indo-European speakers of
the same race, even if there were such a thing.
--
As through this world I've rambled, I've met plenty of funny men,
Some rob you with a sixgun, some with a fountain pen.
Woody Guthrie
Matt Giwer
> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> George wrote:
>>> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>>>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
>>>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>>>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
>>>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
>>>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
>>> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
>> Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it
scoured the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus. That
debunks the Torah which is the foundation of Judaism. Archaeology debunked
Abraham more than a century ago.
>>> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
>>> him?
>> What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious traditions?
Do you think he can succeed?
>>> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
>> Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians.
> Indo-Europeans are not Caucasian, nor are all Indo-European speakers of the
same race, even if there were such a thing.
If they are not Caucasian are they Mongoloid? Negroid? Amerind?
Please tell me what they are if they are not Caucasian.
--
Atheism dignifies theism. There is no special name for
those who do not believe in faeries.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4190
http://www.haaretz.com What is Israel really like? http://www.jpost.com a7
Tue Oct 13 03:41:22 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
...
> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook theories.
So why are you here, exactly?
What are you now trying to claim, for the first time, is a conspiracy
theory? That members of a religion conspire to promote their beliefs is a
given. It does not require a theory.
--
Between religion and science, only religion can retreat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4185
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/is-seg.phtml a14
Tue Oct 13 02:46:19 EDT 2009
Tom P
Of course he hasn't. He never does.
The man Giwer has no shame. He gets caught in blatant lies and instead
of acknowledging his mistakes, he launches attacks in Giwerian Gobbledygook.
Tom P
Tom P
> Tom P wrote:
> ...
> > Giwer,
>
> conspiracy theory? That members of a religion conspire to promote their
> beliefs is a given. It does not require a theory.
>
Anyway, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
Matt Giwer
Again, what conspiracy theory are you trying to invent here?
--
Holocaust denial is not as bad as the Goldstone Report on Gaza.
Michael Oren, Israeli Ambassador to the US, September 2009
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4195
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo/ a8
Tue Oct 13 22:35:36 EDT 2009
Martin Edwards
there. I'll try not to be patronizing, as there are people in these
islands who use the term, but basically it's American for Aryan.
Whiskers
> George wrote:
>> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
>>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
>>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
>>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
>
>> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
>
> Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it
> scoured the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus.
What evidence could be expected? It's hard enough to spot where a modern
desert nomad camp was a year ago - and "the Exodus" must be a *lot* older
than that. What do you want - footprints with 'made by Isaac the
shoemaker in Cairo for lord Moses, 1352 BC' embossed in the sole and
enough squashed 'manna' to give C14 dating?
> That debunks the Torah which is the foundation of Judaism.
Debunks what, exactly?
> Archaeology
> debunked Abraham more than a century ago.
That was clever of it. How, exactly? It's hard enough to work out who
was buried in a royal tomb in Europe only a thousand years or so ago; so
how do you get evidence that a particular person four or five thousand
years ago didn't exist?
>> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
>> him?
>
> What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious
> traditions? Do you think he can succeed?
>
>> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
>
> Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians. Jews are
> followers of Judaism and nothing more. Atheists cannot be Jews. People
> can ony be "born" Jewish because of a teaching of Judaism. Atheists do
> not follow Judaism therefore cannot believe they were born Jews.
Let me guess - you don't want anyone to know you're Jewish? You certainly
seem to know more about 'being Jewish' than any of the Jews I've ever
discussed it with!
> Want to try claiming Jews are an
> ethnic group?
See <http://www.dictionary.net/ethnic> - some define the word 'ethnic' as
'not Jewish', or more broadly as 'not Jewish or Christian' ...
> Just who do you think I am "biased" against?
I don't think anyone can have any doubts about that. You go to
considerable lengths to express it.
> What kind of perverted
> world view do you have which has such primitive, simplistic ideas?
As yours?
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
deowll
"Whiskers" <catwh...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhdcb7k.g...@ID-107770.user.individual.net...
Let's be honest, if you could show these guys the broken fragments of the
first copy of the ten commandments it still wouldn't make any difference.
They have their religious beliefs and the data doesn't matter to them at
all.
JTEM
"deowll" <deo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let's be honest, if you could show these guys the broken
> fragments of the first copy of the ten commandments it
> still wouldn't make any difference.
You could lay them out next to the "True Cross" and the skulls
of the three wise men.
Matt Giwer
Of course there is no such thing as Negroid or Mongoloid either. It's all an
optical illusion.
Now tell me you are resurrecting the WWII idea of what constitutes a race.
--
If you believe religion to be infallible be thankful your
neighbor is not a man of the cloth.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4189
http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ Antisemitism a10
Thu Oct 15 02:11:17 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
> On 2009-10-13, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> George wrote:
>>> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
>>>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
>>>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
>>>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
>>>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
>>>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
>>> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
>> Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it
>> scoured the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus.
>
> What evidence could be expected? It's hard enough to spot where a modern
> desert nomad camp was a year ago - and "the Exodus" must be a *lot* older
> than that. What do you want - footprints with 'made by Isaac the
> shoemaker in Cairo for lord Moses, 1352 BC' embossed in the sole and
> enough squashed 'manna' to give C14 dating?
The evidence is what Israel was looking for. The tens of millions of holes to
burying shit would be a good start. The two million humans who were buried is
another. The tens of millions of potsherds and the rest of the detritus of
human existence would be another.
What magic are you trying to invoke to claim there would be no evidence?
>> That debunks the Torah which is the foundation of Judaism.
>
> Debunks what, exactly?
Exactly what I said.
>> Archaeology debunked Abraham more than a century ago.
> That was clever of it. How, exactly? It's hard enough to work out who
> was buried in a royal tomb in Europe only a thousand years or so ago; so
> how do you get evidence that a particular person four or five thousand
> years ago didn't exist?
The Egypt described in tails about him never existed. QED
>>> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
>>> him?
>> What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious
>> traditions? Do you think he can succeed?
Apparently there is little hope of salvaging traditions.
>>> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
>> Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians. Jews are
>> followers of Judaism and nothing more. Atheists cannot be Jews. People
>> can ony be "born" Jewish because of a teaching of Judaism. Atheists do
>> not follow Judaism therefore cannot believe they were born Jews.
> Let me guess - you don't want anyone to know you're Jewish? You certainly
> seem to know more about 'being Jewish' than any of the Jews I've ever
> discussed it with!
Your ignorance does not imply great knowledge on my part.
>> Want to try claiming Jews are an
>> ethnic group?
> See <http://www.dictionary.net/ethnic> - some define the word 'ethnic' as
> 'not Jewish', or more broadly as 'not Jewish or Christian' ...
I was thinking more of the supreme court of Israel.
Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106971.html
Wed., August 12, 2009 Av 22, 5769 | Israel Time: 02:12 (EST+7)
Removing hypocrisy
By Edna Ullmann-Margalit
The High Court justices made some emphatic statements last Thursday when
they issued a precedent-setting ruling banning the segregation of Ashkenazi
and Sephardi girls at the Beit Ya'akov Girls' School in Emmanuel. The right
to a separate education based on ethnic affiliation is not an absolute right
when it clashes with the right to equality, the judges ruled.
The High Court was asked to hear the case after a second school - a
reclusive Hasidic institution, most of whose students are Ashkenazi - opened
its doors two years ago in the same building as the Beit Ya'akov Girls'
School, most of whose students are Sephardi.
>> Just who do you think I am "biased" against?
> I don't think anyone can have any doubts about that. You go to
> considerable lengths to express it.
Facts are what they are. The expression of facts is what it is.
>> What kind of perverted
>> world view do you have which has such primitive, simplistic ideas?
> As yours?
Not clever by half.
--
What is the difference between testing a god who will not be tested and a
god that is of stone?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4194
http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/sewer-bible.phtml a15
Thu Oct 15 02:13:47 EDT 2009
Matt Giwer
> Let's be honest, if you could show these guys the broken fragments of
> the first copy of the ten commandments it still wouldn't make any
> difference. They have their religious beliefs and the data doesn't
> matter to them at all.
When you produce them you can test the idea. Until then you are just another
whiny believer.
--
While it appears theoretically possible to reconcile science and religion
it requires religion to continue to concede territory if it is to happen.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4181
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/is-seg.phtml a14
Thu Oct 15 02:38:53 EDT 2009
Martin Edwards
terms they belong to all the races at once.
Matt Giwer
Some day you must tell me the source of these nonsense statements you keep
making. Political correctness is not a legitimate scientific concept.
--
Between religion and science, only religion can retreat.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4185
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/is-seg.phtml a14
Thu Oct 15 22:50:55 EDT 2009
Martin Edwards
discussion. Actually I saw it on tv but as a registered (though not
practising) teacher, I have a pretty good idea of what is factual and
what is not. "Political correctness" is simply a fly swat which allows
racists and fascists to say what they like, a bit like "cynic" with your
religious adversaries.
Kendall K Down
Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> These newsgroups are on history and archaeology. Neither has anything to do
> with the bible nor bible scholarship.
Ah, so anyone who mentions Israel Finkelstein doesn't belong on
sci.archaeology?
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Matt Giwer
> In message <4acc3a5d$0$4951$9a6e...@unlimited.newshosting.com>
> Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> These newsgroups are on history and archaeology. Neither has anything to
>> do with the bible nor bible scholarship.
> Ah, so anyone who mentions Israel Finkelstein doesn't belong on
> sci.archaeology?
Fraud in archaeology is on topic.
He is an example of a fraudulent archaeologist.
Why not discuss him? Look as the discredit he brings to archaeology.
--
When one says a thing is 'no worse than' he is also saying it is
no better than.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4197
http://www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml a16
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. a16
Thu Nov 12 22:25:18 EST 2009
Kendall K Down
Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
>>> These newsgroups are on history and archaeology. Neither has anything to
>>> do with the bible nor bible scholarship.
>> Ah, so anyone who mentions Israel Finkelstein doesn't belong on
>> sci.archaeology?
> Fraud in archaeology is on topic.
> He is an example of a fraudulent archaeologist.
> Why not discuss him? Look as the discredit he brings to archaeology.
D'you know, folks? I think we finally got something through to Matt
the Pratt's thick head. We've finally convinced him that Finkelstein
doesn't support his nutty ideas, so all of a sudden Finkelstein,
instead of being one of Israel's leading archaeologists and an
authority to be quoted on everything, becomes someone who brings
discredit on archaeology.
He he.
JTEM
Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
> D'you know, folks? I think we finally got something
> through to Matt the Pratt's thick head. We've finally
> convinced him that Finkelstein doesn't support his
> nutty ideas,
Oddly, I seem to recall the "Tom P." disorder mistakenly
claiming that Finkelstein supports you whack jobs...
AgitProp
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > George wrote:
> >> On Oct 13, 7:29 am, Tom P <th_om_a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Geez, so much Giwerian gobbledygook and no physical evidence whatsoever.
> >>> And now you are so desperate you even have to reply to yourself, Giwer,
> >>> to drum up any action on Usenet.
> >>> Giwer, your bogus kook conspiracy theories are neither history nor
> >>> archaeology. All of the physical evidence crushes your bogus kook
> >>> theories. So why are you here, exactly?-
>
> >> Attempting to spread anti Jewish hatred is my guess.
>
> > Israel completely debunk everything important about Judaism when it
> > scoured the Sinai for over a decade and found no evidence for Exodus.
> > That debunks the Torah which is the foundation of Judaism. Archaeology
> > debunked Abraham more than a century ago.
>
> >> Has he gotten back to you on the Greek language questions you had for
> >> him?
>
> > What do you expect from his attempts to salvage religious
> > traditions? Do you think he can succeed?
>
> >> Or any other subject his racist biases have raised ?
>
> > Jews are not a race. Almost all of them are Caucasians.
>
> Indo-Europeans are not Caucasian,
The Caucasians are not white to begin with...
It is a PC term introduced to accommodate for those
jews that have a Middle-Eastern appearance and
reconcile them to the White races.
The comfort and the well-being of the jewish bankers is very important
to all dog-trained - shabat goys - more commonly known as Freemasons.
F'course this not being admited publicly by the mainstream
media - rather we are given some bs explanation of where
whites supposedly originated from as an excuse. In fact
Europenas were in Europe and had used metals 30K BC.
Long before Sumerians came out of the woodwork and
only thanks to white settlement.
>nor are all Indo-European speakers of
> the same race, even if there were such a thing.
...there isn't! - Indo-European is another anti-white PC invention of
the Freemasons.
Matt Giwer
> In message <Pine.LNX.4.64.09...@dawn.a.b.c>
> Matt Giwer <matt@localhost> wrote:
>
>>>> These newsgroups are on history and archaeology. Neither has anything to
>>>> do with the bible nor bible scholarship.
>
>>> Ah, so anyone who mentions Israel Finkelstein doesn't belong on
>>> sci.archaeology?
>> Fraud in archaeology is on topic.
>> He is an example of a fraudulent archaeologist.
>> Why not discuss him? Look as the discredit he brings to archaeology.
> D'you know, folks? I think we finally got something through to Matt
> the Pratt's thick head. We've finally convinced him that Finkelstein
> doesn't support his nutty ideas, so all of a sudden Finkelstein,
> instead of being one of Israel's leading archaeologists and an
> authority to be quoted on everything, becomes someone who brings
> discredit on archaeology.
The boy who makes a living robbing little old ladies for trips to bibleland
where he tells all kinds of amazing stories has spoken. Finkelstein himself
says he is a biblical archaeologists not an archaeologist. What more do you need?
So why have you not contacted him and explained what "israel" meant in the
12th c. BC because he says he does not know. How do you know when he does not?
Why do you refuse to inform him?
--
If the world adopts Israel's view of the Goldstone report then the world
at least owes Milosevic a posthumous apology and possibly also to Hilter.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4206
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/holo-survivors.phtml a3
Sat Nov 21 06:20:19 EST 2009