Jairazbhoy Part II -- the alleged expedition to the West
Doug Weller
There is one very special volcano, an extinct one, that lies in the heart
of the Olmec lands near the south-
west shores of the Gulf of Mexico. What is so special about San Martin
Pajapan is that, apart from Easter Island, it is the only volcano in
the world in whose crater a monumental sculpture has been found. It dates
from about 1000 BC. Why should they have dragged it up a thickly
wooded slope (even with modern equipment it was brought down with great
difficulty), and put where no one is likely to have seen it?
That is, except those who went up there to perform rituals, and to bury
offerings underneath it
[here I have cut out stuff about the statue]
And similarly, in Why should Rameses have wanted a statue of himself
sitting in a crater in the far west of the world? Because
in Egyptian belief the sun entered the Underworld in the Far West, and the
Pharaoh accompanied him on his ship. Rameses writes in his
inscriptions that he has actually reached this mountain in the far west of
the world 1 which was known as Manu. A statue of himself in it
would be an insurance of resurrection there, just as servant statues were
commonly put in Egyptian tombs to ensure that they would come
alive to serve in the hereafter. Such a statue would no doubt have been
present in the solar ship, since the Book of the Dead (ch. 130,
31 and rubric) directs that "thou shalt place a figure of the deceased in
the bows of Ra's boat" and describes it as "sitting upon his
thigh." There were several reasons why I identify St. Martin on the
Mexican Gulf with Manu - one, because it literally is as far west as
you can sail from Egypt; two, because of the statue and its Egyptian
affinities; three, because the Aztecs still preserved the conception
of the place where the sun enters2 (it was known as ciuatlampa); and four,
because of a visible resemblance between the real and the
mythical mountain - - both having twin peaks (Fig.5). Here one sees the
solar ship approaching the twin-peaked mountain on Seti's
sarcophagus (Fig. 6). [See Postscript.] Of course when the migrants found
that the sun did not literally set in the crater, they must have been
beset with doubts...
A few pages later he writes:
We have passed in review the portrait, the name, the royal insignia, and a
whole sequence of stages in the career of Rameses III as
manifested in Mexico and Peru. It remains now only to hear what he himself
has to say relating to this matter.15 On one occasion he says
that he built warships, galleys and coasters on the Mediterranean and sent
them to "the ends of the earth" to bring back goods to enrich the
treasuries of Egyptian temples. On another occasion he says he built great
galleys and sent them "into the sea of the inverted water,"
including some to the land of Punt (down the Somali coast) which returned
safely with goods. If others did not come back they would not
have been mentioned, since Egyptian kings never publicised their reverses.
But there was never any doubt that they had reached the ends of the earth
- Rameses IV declares the Ocean and the Great Circuit.. to
the ends of the supports of the sky" were under his father's grasp.16 No
doubt in sending an expedition to the West, Rameses would have had
in mind a dual purpose. A celestial journey to the West of the World was
his rightful expectation as Pharaoh. Ever since the Old Kingdom
the Pharaoh had been described as sitting in a boat, taking the helm, and
being rowed to the West over the two parts of heaven.17 Rameses is
represented in this role (Fig.31) in one of the rooms in his tomb in
Thebes, and the text there is 'The Litany of the Sun," proving that it
was the solar journey that was intended. Before they had deteriorated, the
paintings were reproduced about 150 years ago by Champollion and
Bosselini and it is clear that there was a fleet of seven ships. It is
highly unlikely that the fleet that Rameses says he sent to the
ends of the earth and to the sea of the inverted water, would have been
unconscious that the entrance to the Underworld lay in the far
West of the World, and so it could be said that they actually came looking
for the Underworld. And this is exactly confirmed by the
Mexican tradition preserved by Sahagun in which the first settlers of this
land are described as coming in seven wooden ships or galleys,
and they 'come looking for a terrestrial paradise.'
In a much later chapter, RAJ writes this:
Yet another conception in common survives in a different area, in Cherokee
myth, in which the sun is held to enter by a door. The
'Journey to the Sunrise' relates (Mooney, J, Myth of the Cherokees, 1902,
page 256) that a long time ago several young men made up their
minds to find the place where the sun lives, and see what the sun is like.
They got ready with their bows and arrows, their parched corn,
and extra mocassins, and started out toward the East. At first they met
ethnic groups they knew, then they came to communities they had
only heard about, and at last to others of which they had never heard.
They travelled on till at last they came to the sunrise place where
the sky reaches down to the ground. Here there was a door - the sun came
out of it from the East, and climbed along the inside of the
arch. It had a human figure. Of the seven men, one was killed when he
tried to enter the door. The others returned, but they had travelled
so far that they were old when they reached home.
In addition to the 'Door by which the Sun enters,' which exists also in
Egyptian mythology, there is a whole sequence of parallels between
this Cherokee myth and the Ramessid journey to the West. The parallels are
as follows:
1. The purpose of the journey was to find the place where the sun sets
in one case, and where it rises in the other.
2. Each is a deliberate expedition with an exploratory purpose.
3. Each assumes that the sky rests on the ends of the earth.
4. The sun in both cases has an anthropomorphic form.
5. There were seven expedition members in one case,and seven
expeditionary ships in the other. The sequence of close
parallels rules out coincidence.
Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen's Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
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Doug Weller
from RAJ is from him.
Doug wrote:
SNIP
(quoting RAJ here:_
>Rameses is
> represented in this role (Fig.31) in one of the rooms in his
> tomb in Thebes, and the text there is 'The Litany of the
> Sun," proving that it
> was the solar journey that was intended. Before they had
> deteriorated, the paintings were reproduced about 150 years
> ago by Champollion and
> Bosselini and it is clear that there was a fleet of seven
> ships. It is highly unlikely that the fleet that Rameses
> says he sent to the
> ends of the earth and to the sea of the inverted water, would
> have been unconscious that the entrance to the Underworld lay
> in the far
> West of the World, and so it could be said that they actually
> came looking for the Underworld. And this is exactly
> confirmed by the
> Mexican tradition preserved by Sahagun in which the first
> settlers of this land are described as coming in seven wooden
> ships or galleys,
> and they 'come looking for a terrestrial paradise.'
This must be brief because I' m behind on a number of projects. 1)
Jairazbhoy's citation to Sahagun is erroneous. He cites a 1946 edition of
Historia de las cosas de la Nueva Espana p. 13-14. There is no 1946
edition, and it would be impossible for this pasage to be on pp13-14
because it occurs at the end of Book 10. The passage in the 1938 edition
published by Robredo has the passage in Vol . 3 pp. 136-137; the 1956
edition by Garibay published by Porrua has it in Vol 3, pp 207-209, and
the 1988 edition by Alfredo Lopez Austin has it in Vol 2, pp 670-672.
2) The key points to be made. This is an origin legend for where the
Aztecs came from. They came from "Chichimecapan" which is North Mexico,
southwest US. They came down the coast and landed at the NORTH (that north
speaking from the perspective of Mexico City). The Aztecs were "the last"
to come. So these migrants were not 1) from the east and not 2) the
original settlers (i.e not very ancient). Jairazbhoy LIES when he says the
settlers came in seven boats. The Spanish Historia says in the relevant
line [my translation] 1988, vol. 2 p671 "And coming from the sea in ships,
they landed in the port to the north, and because they landed there it was
called Panutla....."
3)JAZ also misstates they did not "come looking for a terrestrial
paradise" they came looking for Tamoanchan which means "We ComeDown to our
Home."
The following is a longer quote of this passage translated from Nahuatl in
the Florentine Codex which is the source for the Spanish version I have
cited. Notice that here it says" many groups from the water in boats" but
not seven boats. The passage is Appendix 1 in A. Lopez Austin Tamoanchan,
Tlalocan which I translated.
The Mexica or Mexitin
Códice Florentino 1979: bk. 10, ch. 29, para. 14, fols. 139v-140r.
Translation to Spanish by Alfredo López Austin
" [1] One is called mexicatl, many are called mexicah. The name mexicatl,,
is derived from the name Mecitli. Me means metl [Agave]; citli means
"rabbit" "hare." One should say mecicatl because of a shift it became
mexicatl.
[2] According to tradition, the name of the priest who directed the Mexica
here was Mecitli. It was said that he was named Citli when he was born,
and that they laid him on a maguey plant, where he grew up, and because of
that he was called Mecitli.
[3] When he was grown, he became a priest, the keeper of the god. It is
said that he conversed personally with the devil. And all those, who were
led [by him] greatly revered him, and all obeyed him. And because he led
his subjects, they were called Mexica.
[4] According to tradition, these Mexica were the last ones to come from
Chichimecapan ["Land of the Chichimec"], from Teutlalpan.
[5] This is the story that the elders told: At some time, at some place,
that nobody can reckon now, that no one can remember, the ones who came to
disperse the grandfathers, the grandmothers, the ones who were called
"those who arrived, the ones who came," those people came to sweep the
path; they came to tie the ends together. They came to cast stones on this
land they named singularly as if they were making a small world for
themselves. They came in many groups from the water in boats. And they
arrived at the north coast; and they beached their boats at a place called
Panutla (which means "the passage way"). Today it is called Pantla.
[6] Then they continued along the coast. They went toward the mountains,
primarily the white [snow covered] ones, and the volcanoes. Going along
the coast they arrived at Cuauhtemalla. They did not go of their own
volition, but were guided by the priests. And [the priests] went along
talking with their god.
[7] Then they came, they arrived, at the place called Tamoanchan, which
means "We Come Down to our Home." They remained there for a long time."
*******
A general methodological critique of JAZ, that Davies also made. Why in
the world is JAZ using Aztec myths and sources to compare with Egyptian
concepts that may or may not have been current 3000 years previously??
Why, without JAZ presenting a single piece of evidence for the
uncontaminated and totally acurate preservation of particular details (7
ships) by an oral culture without writing for 3000 years, should we take
anything he says as valid on this type of evidence? This is assuming that
he even has quoted the Aztecs correctly-- which we just saw he did not.
Bernard
Certainly one of the problems I have with RAJ is that he is mining from
the many thousands of myths that exist in the Americas to find parallels.
It wouldn't be surprising if he found some, indeed it would be surprising
if he didn't. He does the same with the art. Eg, on page 14 he has an
picture of a fragement of a wall painting from Las Higueras, which he
compares with a picture of Ramses III in his solar ship. Not only is it
impossible to see details on the photo for the reader to verify (or not)
his comparisons, but how about the rest of the art work as Las Higueras?
If he could show that it was Egyptian he would, but he doesn't even try.