semi-aquatic mountain-beavers
Marc Verhaegen
tml
"like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
"mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
survive."
Thanks, DD.
Some anti-AAT fanatics say that mountain-beavers are not semi-aquatic.
From our TREE paper (google "aquarboreal"):
"Tooth microwear studies (electron microscopy by co-author P-F.Puech --MV)
indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy polished surface (by
polishing with wet plants P-F thinks --MV) that is typical of the molars of
capybaras Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both
these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the
bark of young trees."
IOW, this confirms our view that A.afarensis (at least partly) fed on
"succulent vegetation", whether or not mountain-beravers are semi-aquatic or
not.
Perhaps we had better omitted the word semi-aquatic to take away the only
"critique" of a few netloons to our paper.
--Marc Verhaegen
Makouli
news:C4BB25B1.13566%m_ver...@skynet.be...
Umm I don't think that's the "only critique" of your paper.
You know this and say otherwise. What's that make you?
http://tinyurl.com/5gn8lh
"Unfortunately, established methods5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
of studying microwear are plagued with low
repeatability and high observer error11.
http://tinyurl.com/6zxodt
http://tinyurl.com/6hfgkg
http://tinyurl.com/6hp98f (7 photos)
http://tinyurl.com/6fjvzy
"From these measures, the diet variation *within*
(my emphasis) each species appears to be more
extensive than the differences between them. The
authors suggest this pattern of differences may
represent a basically uniform diet with different
fallback foods."
http://tinyurl.com/5rqbps
"These results demonstrate that intraspecific and
intra-individual differences in microwear may be
extreme, and care must be taken to distinguish
normal variation due to occlusal mechanics from
variations due to dietary difference."
http://tinyurl.com/5ltu32
"The wear pattern that appears to have
characterized Pr. afarensis overlaps
extensively that of Gorilla gorilla
beringei..."
Tell me again, Marco, what does a superficial
resemblance ~between~ species say about anything?
> --Marc Verhaegen
================================
"Nowhere have I stated, either in print
or on a public platform, or on the media,
that I support the AAH!" Tobias 08/31/2001
Marc Verhaegen
>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.h
>> tml
>> "like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>> survive."
>> Thanks, DD.
>> Some anti-AAT fanatics say that mountain-beavers are not semi-aquatic.
>> From our TREE paper (google "aquarboreal"):
>> "Tooth microwear studies (electron microscopy by co-author P-F.Puech --MV)
>> indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy polished surface (by
>> polishing with wet plants P-F thinks --MV) that is typical of the molars
>> of capybaras Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris &
>> mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both
>> these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the
>> bark of young trees."
>> IOW, this confirms our view that A.afarensis (at least partly) fed on
>> "succulent vegetation", whether or not mountain-beravers are semi-aquatic
>> or not.
>> Perhaps we had better omitted the word semi-aquatic to take away the only
>> "critique" of a few netloons to our paper.
Some SF:
> Umm I don't think that's the "only critique" of your paper.
Yes, my boy: you can't give 1 critique.
> You know this and say otherwise.
Ridiculous liar.
> What's that make you?
> http://tinyurl.com/5gn8lh
> "Unfortunately, established methods5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
> of studying microwear are plagued with low
> repeatability and high observer error11.
RS Scott cs 2005 Nature 436:693-695
Dental microwear texture analysis shows within-species diet variability in
fossil hominins
Reconstructing the diets of extinct hominins is essential to understanding
the paleobiology and evolutionary history of our lineage. Dental microwear,
the study of microscopic tooth-wear resulting from use, provides direct
evidence of what an individual ate in the past. Unfortunately, established
methods of studying microwear are plagued with low repeatability and high
observer error. Here we apply an objective, repeatable approach for studying
three-dimensional microwear surface texture to extinct South African
hominins. Scanning confocal microscopy together with scale-sensitive fractal
analysis are used to characterize the complexity and anisotropy of
microwear. Results for living primates show that this approach can
distinguish among diets characterized by different fracture properties. When
applied to hominins, microwear texture analysis indicates that A.africanus
microwear is more anisotropic, but also more variable in anisotropy than
P.robustus. This latter species has more complex microwear textures, but is
also more variable in complexity than A.africanus. This suggests that
A.africanus ate more tough foods and P.robustus consumed more hard and
brittle items, but that both had variable & overlapping diets.
My little boy, learn to read: this is no critique to our paper: it confirms
it.
FE Grine & RF Kay 1988 Nature 333:765-8
Early hominid diets from quantitative image analysis of dental microwear
The dietary habits of the early hominids Australopithecus & Paranthropus
have long been debated. Robinson argued that the two species differed in the
proportions of meat & vegetables consumed. More recently it has been
suggested that Paranthropus, with its presumably larger body size, simply
pro-cessed greater amounts of the same foods eaten by Australopithecus to
maintain 'functional equivalence'. Microscopic dental wear patterns are
related to the dietary habits of extant mammals, and quantification of these
patterns is useful in distinguishing among primates with different diets.
Nevertheless, few attempts have been made to use microwear in the
reconstruction of early hominid diets, and only very recently has the
quantification of such data been initiated. While microwear fabrics can be
reduced to individual elements (eg, scratches and pits), there is some
disagreement over exactly how they should be defined and measured. Fourier
transforms have been applied successfully in the study of a variety of
physical and biological patterns, and recently they have been used to
characterize and distinguish different tooth wear patterns more objectively.
Here we report the first combined use of image processing and other
quantitative techniques to analyse the dental microwear of early hominids.
Our results suggest that Paranthropus ate substantially more hard food items
than Australopithecus
Thanks, my little boy: confims P-F's findings. In fact, our paper (google
"aquarboreal") was partly based on this: why not inform a *little* bit
before opening your big mouth?? Grow up.
PS Ungar, FE Grine & MF Teaford 2008 PLoS ONE 3(4): e2044
Plio-Pleistocene Hominin Paranthropus boisei
The Plio-Pleistocene hominin P.boisei had enormous, flat, thickly enameled
cheek teeth, a robust cranium & mandible, & inferred massive, powerful
chewing muscles. This specialized morphology, which earned P.boisei the
nickname łNutcracker Man˛, suggests that this hominin could have consumed
very mechanically challenging foods. It has been recently argued, however,
that specialized hominin morphology may indicate adaptations for the
consumption of occasional fallback foods rather than preferred resources.
Dental microwear offers a potential means by which to test this hypothesis
in that it reflects actual use rather than genetic adaptation. High
microwear surface texture complexity and anisotropy in extant primates can
be associated with the consumption of exceptionally hard & tough foods
respectively. Here we present the first quantitative analysis of dental
microwear for P.boisei. 7 specimens examined preserved unobscured
antemortem molar microwear. These all show relatively low complexity &
anisotropy values. This suggests that none of the individuals consumed
especially hard or tough foods in the days before they died. The apparent
discrepancy between microwear & functional anatomy is consistent with the
idea that P.boisei presents a hominin example of Liem's Paradox, wherein a
highly derived morphology need not reflect a specialized diet.
No contradictions with our paper.
> http://tinyurl.com/6hp98f (7 photos)
> http://tinyurl.com/6fjvzy
Idem.
> "From these measures, the diet variation *within*
> (my emphasis) each species appears to be more
> extensive than the differences between them. The
> authors suggest this pattern of differences may
> represent a basically uniform diet with different
> fallback foods."
Yes, why not? And how does our little boy think this contradicts our
paper??
> http://tinyurl.com/5rqbps
> "These results demonstrate that intraspecific and
> intra-individual differences in microwear may be
> extreme, and care must be taken to distinguish
> normal variation due to occlusal mechanics from
> variations due to dietary difference."
Of course. Idem.
> http://tinyurl.com/5ltu32
> "The wear pattern that appears to have
> characterized Pr. afarensis overlaps
> extensively that of Gorilla gorilla
> beringei..."
:-)
Yes, thanks, my little boy: thanks for the confirmation: that's what I'm
saying for ages.
One must be really stupid to think that a fossil with wear overlapping that
in gorillas, with large airsacs, with curved phalanges, with gorilla-like
basicranial sinuses, with small brains etc.is a closer relative of humans
than of gorillas.
From my Human Evolution paper on the subject:
Gorilla-like features in large East African australopith crania
· łIncisal dental microwear in A.afarensis is most similar to that
observed in Gorilla˛. Ryan & Johanson 1989.
· The composite skull reconstructed mostly from A.L.333 specimens
łlooked very much like a small female gorilla˛. Johanson & Edey 1981:351.
· łOther primitive [they mean "advanced gorilla-like" MV] features found
in KNM-WT 17000, but not know or much discussed for A.afarensis, are: very
small cranial capacity; low posterior profile of the calvaria; nasals
extended far above the frontomaxillar suture and well onto an uninflated
glabella; and extremely convex inferolateral margins of the orbits such as
found in some gorillas˛. Walker et al.1986.
· As for the maximum parietal breadth and the biauriculare in OH.5 and
KNM-ER 406 łthe robust australopithecines have values near the Gorilla mean:
both the pongids and the robust australopithecines have highly pneumatized
bases˛. Kennedy 1991 (see also his fig.1).
· In OH.5, łthe curious and characteristic features of the Paranthropus
skull... parallel some of those of the gorilla˛. Robinson 1960.
· The A.boisei łlineage has been characterized by sexual dimorphism of
the degree seen in modern Gorilla for the length of its known history˛.
Leakey & Walker 1988.
· A.boisei teeth showed ła relative absence of prism decussation˛; among
extant hominoids, łGorilla enamel showed relatively little decussation ...˛.
Beynon & Wood 1986 (cf.Beynon et al.1991).
Ape-like features in australopith crania
· łThe evolution of the australopithecine crania was the antithesis of
the Homo line. Instead of becoming less ape-like, as in Homo, they become
more Śape-likeą. Cranial proportions and ectocranial features that were
thought to be unique among pongids evolved separately [they assume --MV] in
the australopithecines parallel [they assume --MV] with the great apes. The
features of KNM-WT 17000, therefore, are not as Śprimitiveą as they look.
The robust Australopithecus did not evolve from a big-toothed pongid
ancestor with large cranial superstructures, but from a small-toothed
hominid with a rounder, smoother ectocranium, like A.africanus˛. Ferguson
1989.
· łPlio-Pleistocene hominids had markedly abbreviated [enamel] growth
periods relative to modern man, similar to those of the modem great apes˛.
Bromage & Dean 1985.
· łEnamel thickness has been secondarily reduced in the African apes and
also, although at a different rare and extent, in the orang-utan. Thick
enamel, previously the most important characteristic in arguments about the
earliest hominid, does not therefore identify a hominid˛. Martin 1985 (but
Beynon et al.1991).
· In the South African fossils including Taung, łsulcal patterns of
seven australopithecine encocasts appear to be ape-like rather than
human-like˛. Falk 1987.
· łCranial capacity, the relationship between endocast and skull, sulcal
pattern, brain shape and cranial venous sinuses, all of these features
appear to be consistent with an ape-like external cortical morphology in
Hadar early hominids˛. Falk 1985.
· In the type specimen of A. afarensis, łthe lower third premolar of ŚA.
africanus afarensisą LH-4 is completely apelike˛. Ferguson, 1987b.
· łA. afarensis is much more similar cranially to the modern African
apes than to modern humans˛. Schoenemann 1989.
· łOlson's assertion that the lateral inflation of the AL.333-45
mastoids is greater than in any extant ape is incorrect if the fossil is
compared to P. troglodytes males or some Gorilla mates and females.
Moreover, the pattern of pneumatization in A.afarensis is also found only in
the extant apes among other hominoids˛. Kimbel et al.1984.
· łPrior to the identification of A.afarensis the asterionic notch was
thought to characterize only the apes among hominoids. Kimbel and Rak relate
this asterionic sutural figuration to the pattern of cranial cresting and
temporal bone pneumatization shared by A.afarensis and the extant apes˛.
Kimbel et al.1984.
· ł... the fact that two presumed Paranthropus [robustus] skulls were
furnished with high sagittal crests implied that they had also possessed
powerful occipital crests and ape-like planum nuchale... Nuchal crests which
are no more prominent - and indeed some less prominent - will be found in
many adult apes˛. Zuckerman 1954.
· In Sts.5, MLD-37/38, SK-47, SK-48, SK-83, Taung, KNM-ER 406, O.H.24
and O.H.5, łcraniometric analysis showed that they had marked similarities
to those of extant pongids. These basicranial similarities between
Plio-Pleistocene hominids and extant apes suggest that the upper respiratory
systems of these groups were also alike in appearance... Markedly flexed
basicrania [are] found only in modern humans after the second year...˛.
Laitman & Heimbuch 1982.
· łThe total morphological pattern with regard to the nasal region of
Australopithecus can be characterized by a flat, non-protruding nasal
skeleton which does not differ qualitatively from the extant nonhuman
hominoid pattern, one which is in marked contrast to the protruding nasal
skeleton of modern H. sapiens˛. Franciscus & Trinkaus 1988.
In short: everything we know suggests that apiths were simply primitive
Afr.apes with thick enamel (most Mio-Pliocene apes) & vertical spines (since
Moroto).
> Tell me again, Marco, what does a superficial
> resemblance ~between~ species say about anything?
Tell us again, my little boy, do you really believe that a superficial
resemblance -between- species such as wings in bats & birds says nothing??
I knew SFs were stupid stupid stupid, but this imbecile beats them all...
>> --Marc Verhaegen
> ================================
> "Nowhere have I stated, either in print
> or on a public platform, or on the media,
> that I support the AAH!" Tobias 08/31/2001
Yes, this is what he said:
- 1995: "We were all profoundly and unutterably wrong! ... All the former
savannah supporters (including myself) must now swallow our earlier words"
- 1998: "Bamford identified fossil vines or lianas of Dichapetalum in the
same Member 4: such vines hang from forest trees and would not be expected
in open savannah ... if ever our earliest ancestors were savannah dwellers,
we must have been the worst, the most profligate urinators there"
http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
:-D
Makouli
>
[runup]
> Some SF:
>> Umm I don't think that's the "only critique" of your paper.
>
> Yes, my boy: you can't give 1 critique.
>
[spin]
Hi Mike:
Microwear can give you information about the fracture
properties of foods eaten... in other words, such things
|as hard and brittle versus soft and tough. It can tell you
something about the nature of abrasives in or on those
foods, such as abrasive particle size, etc. I am afraid that
all further interpretations are based on context and other
lines of evidence.
A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra.
Hope this helps.
Peter Ungar, Ph.D.
Professor and Chair
Department of Anthropology
Old Main 330
Fayetteville, AR 72701 USA
Phone: 479-575-6361
FAX: 479-575-6595
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Clark <mbcl...@comcast.net>
Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008 7:01 am
Subject: Microwear
To: pun...@uark.edu
> Greetings,
>
> I wonder if you would be so kind as to comment on this:
>
> "Tooth microwear studies (electron microscopy by co-author P-
> F.Puech --MV) indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a
> glossy polished surface (by polishing with wet plants P-F thinks
>--MV) that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
> hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both
> these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses
> & the bark of young trees."
>
> IOW, this confirms our view that A.afarensis (at least partly) fed on
> "succulent vegetation", whether or not mountain-beavers are semi-
> aquatic or not."
>
> "MV" is Marc Verhaegen, fervent supporter of the aquatic ape
> hypothesis. The question is, can the pits and striations on the
> surface of teeth be reliably used to name the foodsource that
> produced them? If so, is it fair to say that A. Afarensis was in
> any way "wet adapted" because one "glossy surface" resembles
> another (afarensis <> capybaras)?
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Mike Clark
Spin that, Bucky. Do cheetahs and Zebras eat the same
things?
> :-D
======================================
"Why doesn't this fool shut up??"
Marco --05/11/2008
Marc Verhaegen
Some SF:
>>> Umm I don't think that's the "only critique" of your paper.
>> Yes, my boy: you can't give 1 critique.
Ungar, not mentioning our TREE paper:
> Microwear can give you information about the fracture
> properties of foods eaten... in other words, such things
> |as hard and brittle versus soft and tough. It can tell you
> something about the nature of abrasives in or on those
> foods, such as abrasive particle size, etc. I am afraid that
> all further interpretations are based on context and other
> lines of evidence.
Yes, my boy, Ungar is right of course: as you had know if you had informed a
little bit, we used all sorts of evidence:
Our extensive survey of the literature [17] suggests that most hominids
might have dwelt in Śwetą rather than Śdryą habitats, and this has been
confirmed by recent discoveries [14,18,19]. Palaeo-ecological
reconstructions are notoriously difficult and our view has been contested by
supporters of traditional savannah interpretations [13,17,19], yet it
appears clear that all australopiths lived near trees, with early species
generally living in wet and well-wooded environments, and later species
living more often in more open wetlands (Table 2). Our interpretation is
corroborated by: (1) comparisons of POSTCRANIAL skeleton; (2) tooth enamel
microwear; (3) strontium:calcium ratios; and (4) isotopic evidence.
Postcranial skeletal comparisons Fossilized footprints and skeletal
remains suggest that australopiths had a mix of bipedal, tree-climbing and
probably [20] KNUCKLE-WALKING features. These would have been ideal for
wetlands: bipedalism in waist-deep water, knuckle-walking in knee-deep
water, and well-developed overhead arm mobility for grasping fruits and
climbing in the waterside vegetation, as seen to varying degrees in modern
pygmy chimpanzees and lowland gorillas in flooded rainforests or forest
swamps [15]. Australopith short-legged bipedalism was different from
human bipedalism [21], probably including a somewhat forward-leaning trunk
posture [22], and would have been suitable for aquarborealism. The
Australopithecus africanus StW-573 foot from Sterkfontein, South Africa,
for instance, Śhad both bipedal and climbing adaptations. This skeletonąs
foot morphology is consistent with the bipedal Laetoli footprints, which are
not those of fully human feet, but which have very clear ape-like
morphologyą [23]. Tree-climbing features (which are less obvious in the
robust australopiths) include apelike upward-directed shoulder joints and
curved finger and toe phalanges.
Tooth microwear
Tooth microwear studies indicate that Australopithecus afarensis molar
enamel had a glossy polished surface that is typical of the molars of
capybaras Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris and mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa
[24]. Both these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs,
grasses and the bark of young trees. The provides three possibilities for
low strontium:calcium ratios in Australopithecus robustus: partial
carnivory; eating leaves and shoots of forbs and woody plants; and eating
food derived from well-drained streamside soils [28]. Sponheimer and
Lee-Thorp state that A. africanus Śate not only fruits and leaves but also
large quantities of carbon-13-enriched foods such as grasses and sedges or
animals that ate these plants, or bothą [29]. However, regular consumption
of savannah grasses is incompatible with the polished, rounded microwear
[24,29] and predominant meat eating is unlikely in view of the blunt molars
[27]. More probable is a diet of sedges and other marshland plants
supplemented with fruits and animals (e.g. tools attributed to A. robustus
now suggest termite-eating [30]).
Independent lines of evidence thus suggest that different australopith
species regularly waded for shallow-water plants, possibly like lowland
gorillas do today [15], only much more frequently. Papyrus or reed sedges
were abundant in australopith environments (Table 2) and are part of the
diet of extant hominids. Gorillas eat bamboo shoots and stalks, as well as
swamp herbs and sedges (Table 1); all hominids eat cane; bipedally wading
chimpanzees and humans collect water lilies; and rice growing in shallow
water, and other cereals are staple foods for humans.
Enough said, my little boy?
Cetero censeo Savanna Fantasts are stupid stupid stupid.
Rick Wagler
> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.h
> tml
>
> "like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
>
> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
>
> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
> survive."
>
> Thanks, DD.
>
Arjo, W M et al (2007) "Mountain Beaver home ranges, Habitat
use and population dynamics in Washington" Canadian Journal of
Zoology, Vol 85, No 3 pp 328-337
The first page you reference is no longer up so who is the
source for the claim that mountain beavers are "waterway
engineers"? The claim is ludicrous. No reputable source
ever mentions this and no seasoned wildlife observer
records it. Your second source says mountain beavers
require a constant water source and Arjo confirms this.
Their preferred food in the Arjo et al study was swordtail
ferns and their preferred habitat was gentle slopes with
moist, friable soil (that preserve the intregrity of their
burrows) in open canopy conferous forest with lots of
understory vegetation. They are **NOT** by any
reasonable definition, semi-aquatic.
Stop making stuff up. It's ridiculous and tiresome and
DD is an idiot - not a trustworthy source of information.
Rick Wagler
Marc Verhaegen
>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.h
>> tml
>> "like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>> survive."
>> Thanks, DD.
SF:
> For mountain beavers see
> Arjo, W M et al (2007) "Mountain Beaver home ranges, Habitat
> use and population dynamics in Washington" Canadian Journal of
> Zoology, Vol 85, No 3 pp 328-337
> The first page you reference is no longer up
Try again, my boy.
> so who is the
> source for the claim that mountain beavers are "waterway
> engineers"? The claim is ludicrous.
says a believer of the ludicrous savanna nonsense
> No reputable source
> ever mentions this and no seasoned wildlife observer
> records it. Your second source says mountain beavers
> require a constant water source and Arjo confirms this.
> Their preferred food in the Arjo et al study was swordtail
> ferns and their preferred habitat was gentle slopes with
> moist, friable soil (that preserve the intregrity of their
> burrows) in open canopy conferous forest with lots of
> understory vegetation. They are **NOT** by any
> reasonable definition, semi-aquatic.
My little boy, grow up. I'm not interested in what Savanna Fools call
semi-aqutic. Again, for the Xth time, important is that mountain-beavers eat
succulent food and, like A.afarensis, have glossy appearance of molar
enamel, probably by polishing with wet plants.
From our TREE paper - google "aquarboreal":
"Tooth microwear studies indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy
polished surface that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both these (semi-aquatic
or not) rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the bark of young
trees."
It's clear that "riverside herbs" are not growing *in* the river but next to
it, but only Savanna Fools don't see that.
The important point is that everything confirms our view that A.afarensis
(at least partly) fed on "succulent vegetation", whether or not
mountain-beavers are semi-aquatic.
> Stop making stuff up. It's ridiculous and tiresome and
> DD is an idiot - not a trustworthy source of information.
You are the ridiculous & tiresome idiot who makes stuff up: DD nor I did
make anything up, as a child can see: we just gave a few links.
Conclusion:
Savanna Fantasts stupid stupid stupid.
Rick Wagler
But we sananna fools are interested in why silly old
codger Dr Verhaegen constantly invents facts to bolster
his ridiculous argument. It's not about what you are
interested in. It's what is revealed by your methods -
a shoddy, desperate, foolish person entangled in a
delusional fantasy.
Rick Wagler
Rick Wagler
>
>>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.h
>>> tml
>>> "like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
>>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
>>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by
>>> resorbing
>>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>>> survive."
>
>>> Thanks, DD.
>
> SF:
>> For mountain beavers see
>> Arjo, W M et al (2007) "Mountain Beaver home ranges, Habitat
>> use and population dynamics in Washington" Canadian Journal of
>> Zoology, Vol 85, No 3 pp 328-337
>> The first page you reference is no longer up
>
> Try again, my boy.
>
Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
The text on the second page makes no such claim.
Since the person who posted page seems a reasoanble
enough character are we to assume that a) realizing
his major error he removed the page or b) DD simply
made it up?
I'm betting b)
Rick Wagler
mclark
> >>http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-ap...
> >> tml
> >> "like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
> >>http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
> >> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
> >> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
> >> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
> >> survive."
> >> Thanks, DD.
>
>
> "Tooth microwear studies indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy
> polished surface that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
> hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both these (semi-aquatic
> or not) rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the bark of young
> trees."
"A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra."
Peter Ungar, Ph.D. --08/03/2008
[various delusions, ad-hominem]
mclark
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
[...]
>
> > Try again, my boy.
>
> Okay.....
>
> Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
> Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
> The text on the second page makes no such claim.
> Since the person who posted page seems a reasoanble
> enough character are we to assume that a) realizing
> his major error he removed the page or b) DD simply
> made it up?
>
> I'm betting b)
>
Sorry Rick, the page *is* up. You just have to finish the URL since
Marco,
in his fevered rush to obfuscate, refuses to use tinyurl.com --or edit
his posts
in such a fashion that wordwrap won't mangle his URL's. The "waterway
engineers" comment is there. In the end, Marco's superficial
resemblances
don't mean squat as per Peter Ungar:
"A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra. "
It doesn't matter. Dragging out the microwear crap was a dud from
day 1 --along with all the other duds. Are you surprised?
Rick Wagler
"mclark" <mbcl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:f58d7538-aedc-40de...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 4, 6:48 pm, "Rick Wagler" <taxid...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
[...]
>
> > Try again, my boy.
>
> Okay.....
>
> Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
> Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
> The text on the second page makes no such claim.
> Since the person who posted page seems a reasoanble
> enough character are we to assume that a) realizing
> his major error he removed the page or b) DD simply
> made it up?
>
> I'm betting b)
>
> Rick Wagler- Hide quoted text -
Sorry Rick, the page *is* up. You just have to finish the URL since
Marco,
in his fevered rush to obfuscate, refuses to use tinyurl.com --or edit
his posts
in such a fashion that wordwrap won't mangle his URL's. The "waterway
engineers" comment is there.
* This is an astonishing claim. There is no reference
* to such behaviour that I can find anywhere and this
* page certainly does not serve an an authoratative
* source. DD can be forgiven for being bamboozled
* I suppose. My apologies.
* Rick Wagler
rmacfarl
> "mclark" <mbclar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now I realise Wikipedia isn't the most authoritative source but we are
comparing to Marc & DD after all..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_beaver
"
The Mountain Beaver (Aplodontia rufa) is a primitive rodent unrelated
to beavers and not always found in mountainous areas...
Mountain Beavers are found from coastal areas of the Pacific Northwest
of North America inland through the Cascade and northern Sierra Nevada
mountain ranges. Much of this range consists of low elevation regions,
but they can be seen as high as tree line. They can be found in both
deciduous and coniferous forests, but throughout most of the range
appear to prefer the former. These animals appear to be
physiologically limited to moist microenvironments, with most
subspecies occurring only in regions with minimal snowfall and cool
winters...
Mountain Beavers are capable of climbing trees, but rarely travel far
from burrows...
"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semi-aquatic
"
Main Entry: semi·aquat·ic
Pronunciation: \-ə-ˈkwä-tik, -ˈkwa-\
Function: adjective
Date: 1833
: growing equally well in or adjacent to water; also : frequenting but
not living wholly in water
"
Hmm, can't seem to squeeze a primitive burrowing rodent, even one
"physiologically limited to moist microenvironments", into that
definition...
Ross Macfarlane
Gerrit Hanenburg
>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>> survive."
>>
>> Thanks, DD.
>>
>For mountain beavers see
>
>Arjo, W M et al (2007) "Mountain Beaver home ranges, Habitat
>use and population dynamics in Washington" Canadian Journal of
>Zoology, Vol 85, No 3 pp 328-337
>
>The first page you reference is no longer up so who is the
>source for the claim that mountain beavers are "waterway
>engineers"? The claim is ludicrous. No reputable source
>ever mentions this and no seasoned wildlife observer
>records it. Your second source says mountain beavers
>require a constant water source and Arjo confirms this.
>Their preferred food in the Arjo et al study was swordtail
>ferns and their preferred habitat was gentle slopes with
>moist, friable soil (that preserve the intregrity of their
>burrows) in open canopy conferous forest with lots of
>understory vegetation. They are **NOT** by any
>reasonable definition, semi-aquatic.
>
>Stop making stuff up. It's ridiculous and tiresome and
>DD is an idiot - not a trustworthy source of information.
I bet Marco doesn't have Walker's Mammals of the World on his desk.
http://tinyurl.com/5dla63
Does it say succulent food anywhere?
Gerrit
Marc Verhaegen
>>>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
>>>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>>>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>>>> survive."
Max.urine conc. mOsm/l:
beaver 520
pig 1100
human 1430
bottlenose 1810
wallaby 2190
camel 2800
sheep 3200
etc.
>> "Tooth microwear studies indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy
>> polished surface that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
>> hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both these (semi-aquatic
>> or not) rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the bark of young
>> trees."
> "A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
> and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra."
> Peter Ungar, Ph.D. --08/03/2008
Yes, cheetahs nor zebras nor capuchins have polished molar enamel like
afarensis & mountain-beavers & capibaras: cheetas, zebras & capuchins don't
eat marsh plants like the other 3.
http://users.ugent.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
Marc Verhaegen & Pierre-François Puech 2000
Humazn Evolution 15:151-162
Hominid Lifestyle and Diet Reconsidered:
Paleo-Environmental and Comparative Data.
Marc Verhaegen
>>>> h
>>>> tml
>>> The first page you reference is no longer up
>> Try again, my boy.
> Okay.....
> Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
> Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
yes, my boy
Rick Wagler
some sense, no doubt. For us in the real world
??????????
Rick Wagler
mclark
Here, let me spell it out for you:
hyaena = capuchin monkey [similar microwear]
cheetah = zebra [similar microwear]
afarensis = mountain-beaver [similar microwear]
Do you see a pattern? What else do you see?
Marc Verhaegen
Here, let me spell it out for the savanna fools:
hyaena = capuchin monkey [similar microwear : no glossy appearance]
cheetah = zebra [similar microwear : idem]
afarensis = mountain-beaver [similar microwear : glossy appearance]
Don't you see the pattern, my little boy?
Marc Verhaegen
Op 06-08-2008 00:54, in artikel mS4mk.59453$nD.50326@pd7urf1no, Rick Wagler
<taxi...@shaw.ca> schreef:
it means, my boy, that savanna fools always find excusess for their
imbecilities
Marc Verhaegen
>>>>>>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
>>>>>>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by
>>>>>>> resorbing
>>>>>>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>>>>>>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>>>>>>> survive."
>>> Max.urine conc. mOsm/l:
>>> beaver 520
>>> pig 1100
>>> human 1430
>>> bottlenose 1810
>>> wallaby 2190
>>> camel 2800
>>> sheep 3200
>>>>> "Tooth microwear studies indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a
>>>>> glossy
>>>>> polished surface that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
>>>>> hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both these (semi-aquatic
>>>>> or not) rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the bark of
>>>>> young trees."
>>>> "A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
>>>> and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra."
>>>> Peter Ungar, Ph.D. --08/03/2008
>>> Yes, cheetahs nor zebras nor capuchins have polished molar enamel like
>>> afarensis & mountain-beavers & capibaras: cheetas, zebras & capuchins don't
>>> eat marsh plants like the other 3.
> Here, let me spell it out for the Savanna Fools:
> hyaena = capuchin monkey [similar microwear & no glossy appearance]
> cheetah = zebra [not unlike microwear & idem]
> afarensis = mountain-beaver [glossy appearance]
To spell it out even more clearly (because SFs are incredibly stupid &
childish): P-F Puech pioneered electron microscopic studies of cheekteeth
enamel of fossil hominids in the 1970s (Franco-American team at Hadar).
When studying that of afarensis, he was surprised to see a glossy appearence
which comparisons with other mammals had shown to be due to polishing with
wet plants. Since he like everybody else "knew" that afarensis had lived on
the African savannas running after kudus, he had difficulties explaining his
findings. Therefore at first the thought that the hominids were using marsh
plants in order to clear their gingiva (P-F is a stomatologist). We now
know (google "aquarboreal") that the truth is simpler: afarensis simply
consumed marsh plants, just like today's hominids in wetlands do
http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/2008/08/are_you_hiding_125000_western.php
Marc Verhaegen
>>> "mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
>>> water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
>>> function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
>>> survive."
>>> Thanks, DD.
SF:
> I bet Marco doesn't have Walker's Mammals of the World on his desk.
> http://tinyurl.com/5dla63
> Does it say succulent food anywhere?
clearly said a stupid SF.
Not difficult, my boy, even for a kudu runner if he uses his brain a little
bit:
"their kidneys lack the loops of Henle"
IOW, they consume very succulent (water-containing) foods
okidoki, my little boy??
learn a bit on physiology of kidneys
Rick Wagler
"waterway engineering" in Aplodontia? Or is the
difference between mountain beavers and beavers
in mountains a trivial one in Dr Adlepates's little world?
Do you have a ref or is this another invented fact.
Rick Wagler
Marc Verhaegen
From our TREE paper (google "aquarboreal"):
>>>>>> polished surface that is typical of the molars of capybaras Hydrochoerus
>>>>>> herbs, grasses & the bark of young trees."
Somebody posted this:
>>>>> "A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
>>>>> and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra."
>>>>> Peter Ungar, Ph.D. --08/03/2008
- hyena & capuchin eat hard objects (bones, nuts...): extensive microwear &
pits etc.in enamel?
- cheetah & zebra = softer foods: less enamel micro-wear & more striations
in enamel?
- capibara & afarensis = marsh plants: glassy appearance, see work of P-F &
others?
> P-F Puech pioneered electron microscopic studies of cheekteeth
> enamel of fossil hominids in the 1970s (Franco-American team at Hadar).
> When studying that of afarensis, he was surprised to see a glossy appearence
> which comparisons with other mammals had shown to be due to polishing with
> wet plants. Since he like everybody else "knew" that afarensis had lived on
> the African savannas running after kudus, he had difficulties explaining his
> findings. Therefore at first the thought that the hominids were using marsh
> plants in order to clear their gingiva (P-F is a stomatologist). We now
> know (google "aquarboreal") that the truth is simpler: afarensis simply
> consumed marsh plants, just like today's hominids in wetlands do
> http://scienceblogs.com/zooillogix/2008/08/are_you_hiding_125000_western.php
>>>> http://users.ugent.be/~mvaneech/Fil/Verhaegen_Human_Evolution.html
>>>> Marc Verhaegen & Pierre-François Puech 2000
>>>> Human Evolution 15:151-162
>>>> Hominid Lifestyle and Diet Reconsidered:
>>>> Paleo-Environmental and Comparative Data
based partly on studies of P.Ungar, refs below:
"... Dental studies suggest that whereas gracile australopithecines
preferred softer fruits and vegetables, the robustsą diet included harder
food items (e.g. Robinson 1954; Du Brul 1977; Walker 1981; Puech 1992;
Lee-Thorp et al.1994). Estimates of robust australopithecine bite force
suggest Ślow-energy food that had to be processed in great quantitiesą and
food objects Śhard and round in shapeą (Demes & Creel 1988). Du Brul (1977)
noticed dental isms between the robust australopithecines and the
bamboo-eating giant panda Ailuropoda melanoleuca (broad, high and heavy
cheekbones, reduced prognathism and front teeth, broad back teeth, premolar
molarisation), as opposed to gracile australopithecines, respectively
non-panda bears.
Papyrus and reed were present in the paleo-environment of the later
australopithecines (e.g. Olduvai, Chesowanja, Kromdraai), and Cyperaceae and
Gramineae are part of the diet of living African hominoids. Gorillas eat
sedges and bamboo shoots and stalks, gorillas and chimpanzees eat cane,
chimps and humans eat water lilies, and rice and other cereals are staple
food for humans. Supplementing their diet with parts of grasslike plants
might have been enabled the robusts to bridge the dry season, when fruits
and soft vegetables were scarce.
Studies of dental enamel microwear provide other details. In the early
australopithecines of Garusi-Laetoli and Hadar (A.afarensis 4-3 Ma), the
cheekteeth enamel has a polished surface and the microwear looks like that
of the capybara Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris and that of the mountain beaver
Aplodontia rufa (Puech et al.1986). These animals ... feed mainly on sappy
marsh and riverside herbs, grasses and bark of young trees. It has recently
become clear that Western lowland gorillas spend some time eating aquatic
herbaceous vegetation (AHV) like Hydrocharitaceae herbs and Cyperaceae
sedges (Doran & McNeilage 1997).
Comparisons of molar enamel in South African fossils show that A.robustus
ate substantially more hard food items than A.africanus (Grine & Kay 1988).
Incisal microwear suggests that A.robustus may have ingested foods that
required less extensive incisal preparation than the foods consumed by
A.africanus, such as fruits (Ungar & Grine 1991), and Śincisors need not be
employed in the manipulation of hard objectsą (Ungar & Grine 1989).
The enamel of the East African robusts (Olduvai and Peninj) displays more
pits, wide parallel striations and deep recessed dentine, resembling that of
the beaver Castor fiber, that eats riverine and riverside herbs, roots of
water lilies, bark and woody plants in a temperate climate. ŚMany food
plants growing in marsh land and indeed many grasses, have high
concentrations of siliceous particles known as opal phytoliths. The
consumption of such foods produces a great deal of wear, and the enamel and
dentine have a blunted appearance. Ancient Egyptians ate papyrus shoots
(Puech et al.1983b) and we suppose that [OH.16] did the same with swamp
margin plantsą (Puech 1992). Whereas the East African robusts seem to have
had aquatic plants and papyrus shoots in their diet and ate more woody
plants than the earlier australopithecines, habilis OH.16 apparently
supplemented the AHV of the earlier australopithecines with acid fruits
(Puech 1984). In the habilis cheekteeth, the margins of the striae have been
polished and slightly etched, resembling the microwear of the coypu
Myocastor coypus. This rodent feeds on reed, sedges, marsh plants, fruits
and molluscs in river and lake margins. It thus seems that an early
australopithecine diet of fruits (larger front teeth) and AHV (polishing)
was supplemented with unripe fruits (acid etching) in habilis, and with
woody plants in the robusts (more wear).
The suggestion of Walker (1981) that A.boisei KNM-ER 406 and 729 were
bulk-eaters of whole fruits, Śsmall, hard fruits with casings, pulp, seeds
and allą, could explain the deep recessed occlusal dentine, but not the
glossy appearance of heavily polished enamel, which is more typical for
marsh plant feeders. In terrestrial grazers such as sheep, tooth wear is
faster, with a different gradient and fabric-like grooves. ..."
_____
A possible explanation for the hyperthick enamel, the sort of micro-wear &
the glossy appearance in A.boisei teeth, thinks P-F.Puech, is that the diet
had inclusions of small snails living on the AHV (as.herbaceous vegetation)
that could damage the enamel.
Another (overlapping) is that regularly consumed HSIs (hard-shelled
invertebrates, such as crabs & snails living in the swamps where their
fossils are found, google "Alan Shabel durophage").
In any case, several independent arguments (paleo-milieu, locomotor anatomy,
isotopes, durophage dentition, microwear...) suggest that A.boisei fed
partly or seasonaly on AHV &/or HSIs.
Perhaps a transition from rel.more HSI to rel.more AHV (ie, a shift from
more swamp to more forest?) can explain many differences between boisei &
lowland gorillas? esp.dentition (from thicker to thinner enamel, from
borader to narrower cheekteeth, from smaller to larger front teeth) &
locomotion (from more to less bipedality, from less to more arboreality
etc.).
______
Puech P-F
- 1984 Curr.Anthr.25:349-350
Acidic-food choice in H.habilis at Olduvai
- 1992 Scann.Microsc.6:1083-88
Microwear studies of early African hominid teeth
- with Cianfarani F & Albertini H 1986 Hum.Evol.1:507-515
Dental microwear features as an indicator for plant food in early hominids:
a preliminary study of enamel
Ungar PS & Grine FE
- 1989 AJPA 78:317
Maxillary central incisor wear in Australopithecus and Paranthropus
- 1991 JHE 20:313-340
Incisor size and wear in A.africanus and P.robustus
_____
--Marc verhaegen
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT
http://users.ugent.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
Marc Verhaegen
Op 06-08-2008 05:02, in artikel %u8mk.163089$gc5.133020@pd7urf2no, Rick
Wagler <taxi...@shaw.ca> schreef:
>
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_ver...@skynet.be> wrote in message
> news:C4BED2A6.13605%m_ver...@skynet.be...
>>
>>
>>
>> Op 06-08-2008 00:54, in artikel mS4mk.59453$nD.50326@pd7urf1no, Rick
>> Wagler
>> <taxi...@shaw.ca> schreef:
>>
>>>
>>> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_ver...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>>> news:C4BE9BAA.135EA%m_ver...@skynet.be...
>>>> http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.
>>>>>>>> h
>>>>>>>> tml
>>>>
>>>>>>> The first page you reference is no longer up
>>>>
>>>>>> Try again, my boy.
>>>>
>>>>> Okay.....
>>>>> Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
>>>>> Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
>>>>
>>>> yes, my boy
>>>>
>>> And in your addled condition this reply makes
>>> some sense, no doubt. For us in the real world
>>>
>>> ??????????
>>>
>>> Rick Wagler
>>
>> it means, my boy, that savanna fools always find excuses for their
>> imbecilities
>>
> Oh, really?
yes, my boy
> You have a credible reference for
> "waterway engineering" in Aplodontia?
*I* didn't say that.
Grow up!
Rick Wagler
check things before launching them at the unsuspecting.
But then after the Floating Gorillas of Ndoki the dam
building Aplodontia is a small matter.
Rick Wagler
Marc Verhaegen
>>> "waterway engineering" in Aplodontia?
>> *I* didn't say that.
> You posted it as information to the group.
I posted this to s.a.p:
http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-aplodon.h
tml
"like beavers they are excellent swimmers and waterway engineers"
http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2007/07/hark-mountain-beaver.html
"mountain beavers are unable to produce a concentrated urine by resorbing
water, because their kidneys lack the loops of Henle which perform this
function. They need plenty of free water and succulent vegetation to
survive."
Thanks, DD.
Some anti-AAT fanatics say that mountain-beavers are not semi-aquatic.
From our TREE paper (google "aquarboreal"):
"Tooth microwear studies (electron microscopy by co-author P-F.Puech --MV)
indicate that A.afarensis molar enamel had a glossy polished surface (by
polishing with wet plants P-F thinks --MV) that is typical of the molars of
capybaras Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris & mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa. Both
these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs, grasses & the
bark of young trees."
IOW, this confirms our view that A.afarensis (at least partly) fed on
"succulent vegetation", whether or not mountain-beavers are semi-aquatic.
Perhaps we had better omitted the word semi-aquatic to take away the only
"critique" of a few netloons to our paper.
____
We didn't say mountain-beavers run bipedally!
We said that mountain-beavers have access to plenty of water (some people
even think they're "waterway engineers") & that their diet probably
overlapped with that of afarensis.
That mountain-beavers, whether somebody calls them semi-aquatic or not, have
very short or absent loops of Henle (like coypus, beavers, capibaras etc.)
shows that they have a very waterrich diet.
We know that their enamel has a glossy appearance probably by polishing with
wet plants & that this is also seen in afarensis according to the first
scientist who looked at it electron microscopically (P-F.Puech).
IOW, all this confirms what we know of afarensis:
- curved phalanges = arm-hanging below-branch locomotion
- very large airsacs, even in infants = surface floating
- bipedal features = wading in shallow (probably fresh)waters
- no Homo features: apelike small brain, short legs, no ext.nose
- cheekteeth microwear overlapping with that in gorillas
- may in forested wetlands, eg, amid crab claws & crocodile eggs
The only possibility is a predom.vertical hanging-floating-wading locomotion
in swamp forests & feeding on what can be expected there: mostly forest &
marsh plants (terrestrial<aquatic herbaceous vegetation??), overlapping with
that of lowland gorillas (but THV>AHV) but also more harder foods, likely
incl.hard-shelled invertebrates (google "HSI Alan Shabel").
But the savanna boys prefer to believe that Lucy ran over the hot plains...
I guess her curved phalanges were for catching kudus... :-DDD
nickname
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
> news:C4BB25B1.13566%m_ver...@skynet.be...>http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-ap...
nickname
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
> news:C4BD50CA.135AC%m_ver...@skynet.be...
>
>
>
>
>
> >>>http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-ap...
nickname
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
> news:C4BD50CA.135AC%m_ver...@skynet.be...
>
>
>
> >>>http://cameratrapcodger.blogspot.com/2008/07/seldom-seen-showtl-or-ap...
nickname
> "mclark" <mbclar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
rmacfarl
> SF:
>
> ...
>
> I posted this to s.a.p:
>
> tml
>
> ...
>
> Some anti-AAT fanatics say that mountain-beavers are not
> semi-aquatic.
>
>
What Marc means is that On Aug 5, 4:17 pm, I wrote the following:
>
>
> ...
I guess that's was Marc getting as close as he's ever likely to to
saying "I was wrong".
>
> [obfuscation]
>
Ross Macfarlane
Lee Olsen
> Some anti-AAT fanatics say that mountain-beavers are not semi-aquatic.
The brainless wetloon still thinks mountain beavers are semiaquatic.
How stupid.
> IOW, this confirms our view that A.afarensis (at least partly) fed on
> "succulent vegetation",
Of course the brainless wetloon doesn't realize succulent vegetation
also grows in deserts and savannas.
Think C4.
>whether or not mountain-beavers are semi-aquatic.
> Perhaps we had better omitted the word semi-aquatic to take away the only
> "critique" of a few netloons to our paper.
Paper? More wetloon imagination at work, what he really means is
OPINION paper.
> But the savanna boys prefer to believe that Lucy ran over the hot plains...
> I guess her curved phalanges were for catching kudus... :-DDD
No attribution marks because such a thing was never said. Wetloons are
liars.
Makouli
>
> Some SF:
>>>> Umm I don't think that's the "only critique" of your paper.
>
>>> Yes, my boy: you can't give 1 critique.
>
> Ungar, not mentioning our TREE paper:
>> Microwear can give you information about the fracture
>> properties of foods eaten... in other words, such things
>> |as hard and brittle versus soft and tough. It can tell you
>> something about the nature of abrasives in or on those
>> foods, such as abrasive particle size, etc. I am afraid that
>> all further interpretations are based on context and other
>> lines of evidence.
>
> Yes, my boy, Ungar is right of course: [...]
>
> [ Marco:]
> Tooth microwear studies indicate that Australopithecus afarensis molar
> enamel had a glossy polished surface that is typical of the molars of
> capybaras Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris and mountain-beavers Aplodontia rufa
> [24]. Both these semi-aquatic rodents feed mainly on riverside herbs,
> grasses and the bark of young trees. [...]
>
> [Ungar:]
>> A hyaena will have similar microwear to a capuchin monkey,
>> and a cheetah will have microwear not unlike that of a zebra.
>>
====================================
"Why doesn't this fool shut up??"
Marco --05/11/2008
RichTravsky
>
> On Aug 4, 6:48 pm, "Rick Wagler" <taxid...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
> >
> [...]
> >
> > > Try again, my boy.
> >
> > Okay.....
> >
> > Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
> > Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
> > The text on the second page makes no such claim.
> > Since the person who posted page seems a reasoanble
> > enough character are we to assume that a) realizing
> > his major error he removed the page or b) DD simply
> > made it up?
> >
> > I'm betting b)
> >
> > Rick Wagler- Hide quoted text -
>
> Sorry Rick, the page *is* up. You just have to finish the URL since
> Marco,
> in his fevered rush to obfuscate, refuses to use tinyurl.com --or edit
> his posts
> in such a fashion that wordwrap won't mangle his URL's. The "waterway
He's afraid people will check his references. Can you blame him?
Marc Verhaegen
>> But the savanna boys prefer to believe that Lucy ran over the hot plains...
>> I guess her curved phalanges were for catching kudus... :-DDD
> No attribution marks because such a thing was never said.
You, my little boy, claimed our ancestors ran after kudus :-DDD
Marc Verhaegen
Op 06-08-2008 18:13, in artikel
db228f7f-956c-4ac0...@y19g2000prn.googlegroups.com, nickname
<alas_m...@yahoo.com> schreef:
> On Aug 4, 10:10 pm, "Rick Wagler" <taxid...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> "mclark" <mbclar...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:f58d7538-aedc-40de...@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 4, 6:48 pm, "Rick Wagler" <taxid...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Try again, my boy.
>>
>>> Okay.....
>>
>>> Well my hackneyed geezer the page that claims
>>> Aplodontia are "waterway engineers" has disappeared.
>>> The text on the second page makes no such claim.
>>> Since the person who posted page seems a reasoanble
>>> enough character are we to assume that a) realizing
>>> his major error he removed the page or b) DD simply
>>> made it up?
>>
>>> I'm betting b)
>>
>>> Rick Wagler- Hide quoted text -
>> Sorry Rick, the page *is* up.
of course, wagler's reaction is typical of a stubborned & biased fool -
disgusting
Rick Wagler
know what they're doing. Biased against nitwits who
post uncritically data from web pages put up by
people who don't.
I can live with that.
Rick Wagler
nickname
> "Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@skynet.be> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
> > Op 06-08-2008 18:13, in artikel
> > nickname
> > <alas_my_lo...@yahoo.com> schreef:
glad to see you're in agreement with yourself.