JTEM often encourages unconventional thought

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I Envy JTEM

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Nov 14, 2021, 7:56:58 PM11/14/21
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https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/LDk7HhpNTE4/m/lk2iJyaMBwAJ

Neanderthals as tree climbing ambush hunters.

Elsewhere I speculated on Mammoths being the model
for dragons.

They were huge, possibly quite aggressive and, I dunno,
maybe they used their trunks a lot... blew water or threw
rocks or whatever -- morphed into fire over millennia and
imaginations.



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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 15, 2021, 11:16:30 AM11/15/21
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Neanderthals did not have long arms vs Hs, He, P spp. How'd they climb trees? Did they get a lift from friendly "dragons"?

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 15, 2021, 5:25:27 PM11/15/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> Neanderthals did not have long arms vs Hs, He, P spp. How'd they climb trees? Did they get a lift from friendly "dragons"?

You don't need long arms to climb into the trees. You only need the long arms to
maneuver THROUGH trees. To just climb up & down having your center of
gravity close to the trunk is extremely helpful, AND it would have been helped
with all the "Cold Adaptations" that are usually talked about. In other words,
there would have been more than one source of selective pressure under this
model.

Actually, many I started toying with this idea because of ambush hunting.

See, throwing spears appear to vanish from the archaeological record for
200,000 to 300,000 years, depending on the source. I don't care which you
pick, either way it is a very long time. And I used to just brush it all as the
result of human conflict.

"A man who throws his spear disarms himself."

I pointed out that without massed volleys of spear, like in Roman armies,
A Steven Hawking would have had zero difficulty in dodging a spear from
30 yards.

You can step away from an arrow, too.

And the only time this isn't true is if your enemy doesn't see you: Ambush!

Well. Ambush hunting is a thing, I found lots of good cites, and none of them
had anything to do with missile fire. Oh they often involved spears but they
weren't thrown very far at all, more like a thrust...

ALSO: Whether they are in conflict with other humans or not, they still had to
eat. So if they switched to thrusting spears they needed food they could
acquire with thrusting spears...

Youtube is far from sweet on videos showing people killing animals. So, most
of the sources I originally found are gone but, there were videos of people
ambush hunting deer from the ground (lying in white, concealed) and videos
of people hunting far more dangerous prey, like bears and boars, from up in
trees.

You know how it works: You find a tree overlooking a game trail, or maybe
even employ bait. You climb on up and wait. When an animals comes by you
thrust a spear down, into the animal for the kill. They rarely die right away but
once stuck in them the lever action of the long shaft cuts a huge fan-shaped
swath inside the animal, the banging of the shaft against any trees or brush
as it tries to flee making it all the worse, ensuring a quick and (more importantly)
a close-by death.

You don't want to spear an animal only for it to run off for miles, dropping dead
as food for wolves...

Long blades work best for this kind of hunting. The longer the blade the more
cutting surface as the weight of the shaft together with the animal banging it
around slices away at its innards.

So we actually have what might be an IMPROVED, a SUPERIOR form of hunting
with this Ambush Hunting, certainly reducing the threat from messing with the
more dangerous animals, while not relying on a form a weapon that disarms
them when used.




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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 15, 2021, 7:24:21 PM11/15/21
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On Monday, November 15, 2021 at 5:25:27 PM UTC-5, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> > Neanderthals did not have long arms vs Hs, He, P spp. How'd they climb trees? Did they get a lift from friendly "dragons"?
> You don't need long arms to climb into the trees. You only need the long arms to
> maneuver THROUGH trees.

How do you think neanderthals climbed up vertical tree stems without claws or spikes? They had rather blunt fingers and toes, unlike lightweight tree-climbing monkeys. Did they only hunt from the few easy-climbing trees that had horizontal branches near to the ground? Did they hold onto their spears while doing this? Do you posit them having rope or ladders?
Did they sleep in arboreal bowl nests? Were they molluscivores part-time?
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I Envy JTEM

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Nov 16, 2021, 12:50:55 AM11/16/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> How do you think neanderthals climbed up vertical tree stems without claws or spikes?

Wait. Are you saying that you never climbed any trees as a child? or are you
pretending you had ape-like arms?

There's no mystery to solve here. If you can't climb one tree, climb a different one. And
if you MUST climb a specific one, they were fully capable of using an animal hide like
a rope, assuming they had no rope, and they could have even fashioned spikes if it came
to that, using animal teeth, claws, horn or even sharpened sticks or rocks.

Not rocket science. And even then that's assuming that they couldn't just find an easier
tree...

> Did they sleep in arboreal bowl nests?

I doubt it. But they might have produced something nest like to conceal themselves
from prey. Scent is another thing they'd need to hide.

Again: Throwing spears seem to vanish from the archaeological record for hundreds of
thousands of years. One very plausible explanation is ambush hunting.





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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 16, 2021, 6:31:59 AM11/16/21
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On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 12:50:55 AM UTC-5, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> > How do you think neanderthals climbed up vertical tree stems without claws or spikes?
> Wait. Are you saying that you never climbed any trees as a child?

I was not the main provider of food for my family nor for myself.

or are you
> pretending you had ape-like arms?

Irrelevant.

>
> There's no mystery to solve here. If you can't climb one tree, climb a different one. And
> if you MUST climb a specific one, they were fully capable of using an animal hide like
> a rope, assuming they had no rope, and they could have even fashioned spikes if it came
> to that, using animal teeth, claws, horn or even sharpened sticks or rocks.

I am guessing you have never tried doing any of those. I am also guessing that neanderthals never successfully did either .
>
> Not rocket science. And even then that's assuming that they couldn't just find an easier
> tree...

An easy tree = lamplight on the wrong side of the street.

> > Did they sleep in arboreal bowl nests?
> I doubt it. But they might have produced something nest like to conceal themselves
> from prey. Scent is another thing they'd need to hide.

So domeshields were entirely plausible.

> Again: Throwing spears seem to vanish from the archaeological record for hundreds of
> thousands of years. One very plausible explanation is ambush hunting.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- --
>
> https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/667963075733897216
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Wood spears decompose quickly.

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 16, 2021, 8:39:05 PM11/16/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> I am guessing you have never tried doing any of those. I am also guessing that neanderthals never successfully did either .

You're being dogmatic. You're not discussion possibilities you're defending a point
of view. There is a difference. Here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Climbing_on_Palmyra_Tree_%28பனையேற்றம்%29.jpg

The above photo, as primitive as it looks, was taken after millions of years of
human evolution, and no more represents the absolute beginning of the
"Technology" than it does it's most advanced form.

Yes, even if they had yet to invent rope, if THAT was too advanced for them,
they still could have accomplished the task employing animal skins. Knot a
few hides together -- which even THAT much might have not been necessary
-- and you've got a rudimentary harness for climbing trees without branches.

....or, like I said, you just find a different tree! That's what we did as kids.
If we couldn't climb THAT one, we climbed a different one.

So there's no mystery to solve here. None. If they wanted up in trees then they
got there. No Manhattan Project necessary. They either found a suitable tree
or they employed even rudimentary tools.

Credit them with rope and all bets are off...

> > > Did they sleep in arboreal bowl nests?
> > I doubt it. But they might have produced something nest like to conceal themselves
> > from prey. Scent is another thing they'd need to hide.

> So domeshields were entirely plausible.

No. They were all in Africa, scooping trout from crystalline waters inside of caves whose
other end opened in Australia.

> Wood spears decompose quickly.

Which doesn't explain how evidence for same appears in multiple places 300,000 to
400,000 years ago, but then vanishes for several hundred thousand years.





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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 17, 2021, 4:40:50 AM11/17/21
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On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 8:39:05 PM UTC-5, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> > I am guessing you have never tried doing any of those. I am also guessing that neanderthals never successfully did either .
> You're being dogmatic. You're not discussion possibilities you're defending a point
> of view. There is a difference. Here:
>
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Climbing_on_Palmyra_Tree_%28பனையேற்றம்%29.jpg

Try making a link in English.

> The above photo, as primitive as it looks, was taken after millions of years of
> human evolution, and no more represents the absolute beginning of the
> "Technology" than it does it's most advanced form.

What photo? Does it show a neanderthal climbing a tree while carrying a spear?

> Yes, even if they had yet to invent rope, if THAT was too advanced for them,
> they still could have accomplished the task employing animal skins. Knot a
> few hides together -- which even THAT much might have not been necessary
> -- and you've got a rudimentary harness for climbing trees without branches.

AMHs is the only primate known to make knots. No evidence for neanderthal knots.

> ....or, like I said, you just find a different tree! That's what we did as kids.
> If we couldn't climb THAT one, we climbed a different one.

Where was the prey?

> So there's no mystery to solve here. None. If they wanted up in trees then they
> got there. No Manhattan Project necessary. They either found a suitable tree
> or they employed even rudimentary tools.

Imagination trumps reality?

> Credit them with rope and all bets are off...

Please cite evidence of neanderthal rope making.
Or credit them with making tree-climbing robots.

> > > > Did they sleep in arboreal bowl nests?
> > > I doubt it. But they might have produced something nest like to conceal themselves
> > > from prey. Scent is another thing they'd need to hide.
>
> > So domeshields were entirely plausible.
> No.

Imagine that. Virtually all AMHs use constructed shelters, none sleep in water.

They were all in Africa, scooping trout from crystalline waters inside of caves whose
> other end opened in Australia.
>
> > Wood spears decompose quickly.
>
> Which doesn't explain how evidence for same appears in multiple places 300,000 to
> 400,000 years ago, but then vanishes for several hundred thousand years.

Chance preservation. Wood rots unless it is preserved eg. in anaerobic conditions.

>
>
> -- --
>
> https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/668039603260997632

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 17, 2021, 1:04:06 PM11/17/21
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Australian trout: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arripis_trutta Australian trout high in omega 3s.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 20, 2021, 1:50:29 AM11/20/21
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No response.

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 20, 2021, 3:48:37 AM11/20/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Climbing_on_Palmyra_Tree_%28பனையேற்றம்%29.jpg
> Try making a link in English.

Just copy & paste it into your browser. It's not difficult.

> > The above photo, as primitive as it looks, was taken after millions of years of
> > human evolution, and no more represents the absolute beginning of the
> > "Technology" than it does it's most advanced form.

> What photo?

You can't figure out copy & paste if a link breaks, and you want to pretend you
have anything to say on the topic of paleo anthropology?

That's not funny. It's sad.

Try again after you get an adult to help you.



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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 20, 2021, 7:35:42 AM11/20/21
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Best to nip it in the bud. Use real links.

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 23, 2021, 2:26:45 AM11/23/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> Best to nip it in the bud. Use real links.

It is a real link, you idiot. If it wasn't then copy & paste wouldn't work.

If you're so terrified of being wrong that you let a broken link stop
you, you really can't claim to be in any position to discuss what
was happening tens of thousands of years ago.





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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 23, 2021, 7:04:46 AM11/23/21
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Fake link.

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 24, 2021, 12:31:34 AM11/24/21
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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

[Fake argument]





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DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Nov 24, 2021, 1:29:43 AM11/24/21
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On Wednesday, November 24, 2021 at 12:31:34 AM UTC-5, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> [Fake subject line]
>
>
>
>
>
> -- --
>
> https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/668596133330894848
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