Expanded explorations of the Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system

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Pandora

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Nov 4, 2021, 11:31:23 AM11/4/21
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Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.

Abstract

The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi. The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited in the chamber. However, the route and mechanism of
deposition of the remains within the Dinaledi Chamber are still
uncertain. During the 2017—2018 field seasons, we expanded
explorations of the passages surrounding the Dinaledi Chamber. These
explorations improved our understanding of the cave’s spatial
complexity, necessitating a revision of the way the spaces are named
and described. The work supported the hypothesis that there is no
alternate entrance into the system other than the Chute. The work also
identified new fossil deposits in several remote passages, three of
which contain material attributable to H. naledi. Here, we clarify the
definition of the Dinaledi Subsystem and provide terminology for new
fossil localities found in this portion of the Rising Star cave
system. These results emphasize the complex depositional environment
of the Dinaledi Subsystem and raise new questions about the process
and timing of the fossil accumulations.

Open access:
https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 4, 2021, 7:47:22 PM11/4/21
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Pandora wrote:

> The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
> large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
> naledi. The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
> assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
> deposited in the chamber.

Why? What is the evidence for this?

I've never seen anything to support such a claim. I've been hearing it
beginning with the very first articles but I've never seen this claim
worked out.

I look but, I don't see any reason to assume that these are intentional
burials. My immediate impression was that animals pushed deeper
and deeper into the blackness, chasing cooler, damper air in the
hopes of finding a water source during a drought, only to be trapped
in a pitch black hole in the ground without food and water.

That seemed like the most plausible explanation to me... the most
obvious. But even that is assuming that what they report as facts
bears some resemblance to reality, and quite frankly there is no
reason to assume that.

Remember when they "Reported" that it was over 2 million years
old, which turned out to be utterly baseless?

It was literally a circular argument. A classic example of circular
reasoning. They assumed it was a human ancestor, and as such
the invented a date where they might plausibly fit it on the timeline,
given it's morphology, so their CONCLUSION -- "human ancestor" --
resulted in the dating that supported the conclusion.

And what photographic/video evidence that exists shows them
mishandling the finds, contaminating them rather aggressively.

Bare hands, uncovered hair & faces... so much for DNA, right?

And what about the modern brain, or the brain with "Modern
Features" which doesn't seem to have actually existed. No, one
endocast came out with some lines that seemed to match some
lines on the modern human brain. One endocast. Just one. And
that was perverted into this human ancestor with a modern
brain that buried it's dead, and lived over 2 million years ago.

I mean, for all I know it really is over 2 million years old, and it's
the recent dating that's the bullshit. I mean, when you know
someone is a liar then THAT'S what you know. You can't cherry
pick what you want to believe and what you want to dismiss.

None of what they say is trustworthy.

But all of it is in line with the Out-of-Africa purity bullshit, the
social program some elitist twat came up with because THEY
are racist to the core, and everything they see validates their
racism so obviously if anyone else sees it they'll be racist too.

...never mind the fact that racism is alive & well already,
and has been for millennia and there's precisely ZERO chance
that actual science, instead of the social program, is going to
make it any worse...






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littor...@gmail.com

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Nov 6, 2021, 6:33:26 AM11/6/21
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> Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
> System, South Africa.
> https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
> The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
> large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
> naledi.

Anthropocentric nonsense:
Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

> The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
> assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
> deposited ...

:-DDD


Pandora

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Nov 6, 2021, 8:40:33 AM11/6/21
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On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 03:33:25 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littor...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
>> System, South Africa.
>> https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
>> The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
>> large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
>> naledi.
>
>Anthropocentric nonsense:
>Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
>Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

In the only phylogenetic analysis so far that includes naledi (Dembo
et al. 2016), it is deeply nested within Homo:
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0047248416300100-gr2.jpg

>> The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
>> assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
>> deposited ...
>
>:-DDD

You think it was teleportation?

Primum Sapienti

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Nov 7, 2021, 9:42:09 PM11/7/21
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littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
>> System, South Africa.
>> https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
>> The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
>> large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
>> naledi.
>
> Anthropocentric nonsense:

You've examined the bones?

> Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
> Google "pan naledi verhaegen".
>
>> The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
>> assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
>> deposited ...

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the
bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the
chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to
transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by
carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures
perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or
furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion
(Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool
inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore
damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental
recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the
effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or
water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable
temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial,
sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark
environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the
earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Primum Sapienti

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Nov 7, 2021, 9:42:31 PM11/7/21
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I Envy JTEM

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Nov 8, 2021, 2:52:43 AM11/8/21
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Primum Sapienti wrote:

> "The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
> exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
> depositional history.

[blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]

All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air
in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
the darkness & die.

It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals
depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
would then have to find their way out...

Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.

What did Naledi have?

It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't
find their way back out.

Nothing is consistent with burial.





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Paul Crowley

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Nov 9, 2021, 5:25:16 PM11/9/21
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On Monday 8 November 2021 at 07:52:43 UTC, I Envy JTEM wrote:

> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> "The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
>> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
>> exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
>> depositional history.
>
> [blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]
>
> All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air
> in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
> the darkness & die.
>
> It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals
> depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
> would then have to find their way out...

I've never done anything like that, but
I presume that if you had a long rope (or
even a thin cord) which you laid out as
a trail, you could follow it back IN THE
DARK to the entrance. They'd have had
torches but, on occasion (or even fairly
often), they'd all have gone out and re-
lighting them in such damp conitions
was probably impossible. Also, they
would have operated in teams, and
'rescuers' with torches would, after
some agreed interval, have sought
out members who had not returned
on time.

The operation of transporting a body
to that remote chamber would probably
have needed multiple trips, so a semi-
permanent rope guide might have been
installed..

> Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
> people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
> when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.
>
> What did Naledi have?

Torches, rope, small size, a life-time's
practice and a cultural inheritance.

> It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't
> find their way back out.
>
> Nothing is consistent with burial.

Except the use of special far-distant
chambers for multiple bodies.

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 9, 2021, 6:22:32 PM11/9/21
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Paul Crowley wrote:

> I've never done anything like that, but
> I presume that if you had a long rope (or
> even a thin cord) which you laid out as
> a trail, you could follow it back IN THE
> DARK to the entrance. They'd have had
> torches but, on occasion (or even fairly
> often), they'd all have gone out and re-
> lighting them in such damp conitions
> was probably impossible. Also, they
> would have operated in teams, and
> 'rescuers' with torches would, after
> some agreed interval, have sought
> out members who had not returned
> on time.

Their brain size overlapped Chimpanzees. They certainly had no larger
brains than habilis, if even that large.

There are claims, but between the atrocious accuracy of the information
fed to us and the claim that their larger brains being based on a single
example, don't bank on anything.

So there's ZERO evidence for fire use, ZERO evidence for rope, the screaming
obvious fact that they're already claiming that these were adapted to the
trees in a way that Chimps are today, which makes ropes redundant...

Google Occam's Razor.

Either you build a tower of suppositions so high it teeters towards collapse,
or you conclude that they are as primitive as they look and weren't
intentionally burying their dead.

> The operation of transporting a body
> to that remote chamber would probably
> have needed multiple trips, so a semi-
> permanent rope guide might have been
> installed..

Or they were every bit as primitive as they look and just got trapped deep
inside a cave searching out a water source.

> Torches, rope, small size, a life-time's
> practice and a cultural inheritance.

So a massive dung heap of baseless suppositions.

> > Nothing is consistent with burial.

> Except the use of special far-distant
> chambers for multiple bodies.

That's circular. You conclude that they were intentionally laying their
dead to rest and then claim that the fact that they laid their dead to
rest is evidence for their doing so.





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Primum Sapienti

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Nov 15, 2021, 1:40:44 AM11/15/21
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I Envy JTEM wrote:
>
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> "The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
>> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
>> exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
>> depositional history.
>
> [blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]
>
> All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air
> in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
> the darkness & die.

Cite previous examples for this hypothesis ->


> It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals
> depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
> would then have to find their way out...
>
> Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
> people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
> when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.
>
> What did Naledi have?
>
> It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't
> find their way back out.
>
> Nothing is consistent with burial.

>
https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 15, 2021, 6:52:57 PM11/15/21
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> > All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air
> > in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
> > the darkness & die.

> Cite previous examples for this hypothesis ->

Why? Are you honestly unable to think for yourself? If you don't have some
priest tell you that God approves of an idea then you can't think it?

Impure thoughts?

And is Google broken?

Name one single source that talks about prepared burials in Africa more
than 200,000 years ago.

There are none. The owners of Naledi(tm) invented the notion.

> "The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
> exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
> depositional history. "

And you mistakenly believe this to mean... what?

> "Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial,
> sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark
> environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the
> earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
> and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

So they died in the cave, not on the surface. That's all your cite is saying. You
don't understand it. Clearly. But it's not saying anything to support intentional
burial. It's just saying that the bones didn't wash in from the surface, or fall in.
It's even implying that the animals weren't the victim of predators.

But it's not saying that they were buried.

As a matter of fact, given the number of animals represented... Wiki says 15.
Smithsonian says that too. OVER 100,000 YEARS! But lets call it 150 individuals.
Let's call it 300. Heck, let's call it 500 individuals:

One died and was buried every 200 years?

Let's make it 1,000 individuals "Buried" in the cave: So one single member of the
population died every century, and was buried in the cave.

It's stupid. It's a glaringly obvious STUPID claim.





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littor...@gmail.com

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Nov 19, 2021, 4:09:37 PM11/19/21
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Naledi simply died where it lived,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT"

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 19, 2021, 9:57:28 PM11/19/21
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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Naledi simply died where it lived

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.




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littor...@gmail.com

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Nov 20, 2021, 9:54:23 AM11/20/21
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Op zaterdag 20 november 2021 om 03:57:28 UTC+1 schreef I Envy JTEM:


> > Naledi simply died where it lived

> Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
> that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
> aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
> by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
> This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
> didn't come out.

No, the cave didn't exist when they lived,
google "naledi PPT verhaegen"

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 21, 2021, 2:41:04 PM11/21/21
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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

The Royal JTEM said:

> > Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
> > that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
> > aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
> > by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
> > This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
> > didn't come out.

> No, the cave didn't exist when they lived,
> google "naledi PPT verhaegen"

I know Wiki isn't exactly the most trustworthy citation but the traditional
30 second Google search found a Wiki article on the cave claiming it to
be no more than 3 million years old... roughly 10x the age of Naledi.

Other cites said that the entrance hasn't changed much if at all since the
fossils were deposited.

Either way, it seems that there isn't a great case to be made for the cave
having formed only after Naledi died there.

This strongly implies, in my mind, the Roach Motel model, as opposed to
a burial chamber or even just residents dying.

If it was just them dying where they lived, there should be many times
more. Even at a population of say, say, 10 members, given a life as long
as 30 years we should be seeing more than 10x as many fossils, given
the age range they attribute to the finds.

The Roach Motel model does fit the evidence though. We would expect
only a fraction of their number to get stuck deep inside the cave, and
only rarely though perhaps at something of a pattern where the most were
lost during droughts/unusually hot periods...









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Primum Sapienti

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Nov 29, 2021, 1:36:37 AM11/29/21
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littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Naledi simply died where it lived,
> google "naledi verhaegen PPT"
>

Google taxonomy. Place of death does not correlate 100% with lifestyle.
Otherwise,
any creature that drowned would be aquatic in aa land.

Primum Sapienti

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Nov 29, 2021, 1:38:32 AM11/29/21
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Naledi simply died where it lived
>
> Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
> that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
> aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
> by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

Water?

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to
transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."


> This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
> didn't come out.

Why didn't they turn around in the chamber?

I Envy JTEM

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Nov 29, 2021, 1:43:47 AM11/29/21
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> I Envy JTEM wrote:

> > Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
> > that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
> > aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
> > by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

> Water?

Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
of water.

> "The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Tell me, WHERE THE FUCK do you find anything in my words suggesting
that they found their water, or found anything but a slow death within the
bowels of the cave?

Jeeze! Get some frigging reading comprehension...






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Primum Sapienti

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Nov 29, 2021, 1:49:24 AM11/29/21
to
Yes, it did. Otherwise, the fossils would show signs of being worked on by
the elements,
animals, etc

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the
bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the
chamber."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial,
sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark
environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the
earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Read also the section "The Rising Star cave system" as well as
"Sedimentology" under the results.

littor...@gmail.com

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Nov 29, 2021, 6:25:02 AM11/29/21
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Op maandag 29 november 2021 om 07:36:37 UTC+1 schreef Primum Sapienti:
1) Naledi has 0 to do with "aa land" (aq.ape?).
Probably the same fools who believe their ancestors ran after antelopes also believe Naledi was Homo.
Most likely, naledi was Pan naledi, fossil subgenus Australopithecus,
google "ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen".

2) Naledi was probably aquarboreal: bipedally wading & vertically climbing in swamp forests.
They didn't drown, but when they died they fell into the mud -> mudstone -> fossilisation,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT".

Primum Sapienti

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Dec 13, 2021, 1:08:07 AM12/13/21
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>> I Envy JTEM wrote:
>
>>> Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
>>> that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
>>> aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
>>> by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
>
>> Water?
>
> Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
> and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
> of water.

Moist? See the next paragraph...

>> "The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
>> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action
>
> Tell me, WHERE THE FUCK do you find anything in my words suggesting
> that they found their water, or found anything but a slow death within the
> bowels of the cave?
>
> Jeeze! Get some frigging reading comprehension...

Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?

Primum Sapienti

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Dec 13, 2021, 1:14:51 AM12/13/21
to
First you deny an aa component, then you say it's there. Such is the aa
just so story.

I Envy JTEM

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Dec 13, 2021, 2:20:49 PM12/13/21
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> I Envy JTEM wrote:

> > Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
> > and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
> > of water.

> Moist? See the next paragraph...

I did. How are you misunderstanding it? In what way, shape or form are you
imagining it to contradict me?

> >> "The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
> >> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have
drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
trapped and slowly dying.

It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...

> Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?

Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
water." Why's that?




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Primum Sapienti

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Dec 22, 2021, 3:15:37 PM12/22/21
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> I Envy JTEM wrote:
>
>>> Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
>>> and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
>>> of water.
>
>> Moist? See the next paragraph...
>
> I did. How are you misunderstanding it? In what way, shape or form are you
> imagining it to contradict me?

Do you need it explained to you?

>>>> "The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
>>>> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action
>
> Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
> register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have
> drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
> trapped and slowly dying.
>
> It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...
>
>> Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?
>
> Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
> water." Why's that?

I quoted the paper about no water action. And if you look at a schematic
of the Rising Star
cave system

<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg/388px-Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg.png>

going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Dec 22, 2021, 5:16:38 PM12/22/21
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Do you need it explained to you?

You're trolling. Go back under your bridge.

> > Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
> > register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have
> > drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
> > trapped and slowly dying.
> >
> > It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...
[...]
> > Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
> > water." Why's that?

> I quoted the paper about no water action.

Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In
fact, my words EXCLUDED water! If there was water they would have drank it,
instead of being drawn BY THE COOL, MOIST AIR deeper & deeper into the
cave until they were trapped & died.




-- --

https://rumble.com/register/JTEM/

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Dec 31, 2021, 11:59:57 PM12/31/21
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> Do you need it explained to you?
>
> You're trolling. Go back under your bridge.
>
>>> Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
>>> register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have
>>> drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
>>> trapped and slowly dying.
>>>
>>> It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...
> [...]
>>> Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
>>> water." Why's that?
>
>> I quoted the paper about no water action.
>
> Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In

"moist"

> fact, my words EXCLUDED water! If there was water they would have drank it,

"moist"

> instead of being drawn BY THE COOL, MOIST AIR deeper & deeper into the

"moist"

> cave until they were trapped & died.

Here on earth, "moist" :

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Jan 12, 2022, 5:19:59 AMJan 12
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> I Envy JTEM wrote:

> > Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In
> "moist"

"Cool, moist air."

I'm literally saying "Air" and your hemorrhoid that you call a brain is claiming that
I said "Water."

Repeatedly.

A lack of reading comprehension does NOT an argument make.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/673133387413913600

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Jan 13, 2022, 9:44:49 PMJan 13
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> I Envy JTEM wrote:
>
>>> Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In
>> "moist"
>
> "Cool, moist air."
>
> I'm literally saying "Air" and your hemorrhoid that you call a brain is claiming that
> I said "Water."
>
> Repeatedly.
>
> A lack of reading comprehension does NOT an argument make.

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause... you know, water... What does "moist"
imply?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist

Why are you literally saying "moist"?



I Envy JTEM

unread,
Jan 14, 2022, 6:51:45 PMJan 14
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.








-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/673305954924822528

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Jan 30, 2022, 1:08:09 AMJan 30
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...
>
> Yeah. Moisture.
>
> And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."
>
> "Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."
>
> What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.
>
> Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist



https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the
bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the
chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to
transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Jan 30, 2022, 2:29:24 AMJan 30
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> And how did the air get "moist"?

So, you being a blithering idiot, allow me to grant you a powerful hint, one
which should leave you incredibly embarrassed:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/24231

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559842/

Clink a link. Go up to your browser menu and select "Find." Search on the
word "Moist."

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
answer.





-- --

https://rumble.com/vr5fsv-confessions-of-an-ex-hippie.html

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Feb 21, 2022, 4:16:32 PMFeb 21
to
Neither "humidity" nor "moist" found in the articles.

And how did the air get "moist"?

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Feb 21, 2022, 4:38:04 PMFeb 21
to


I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish I could be JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Neither "humidity" nor "moist" found in the articles.

I sometimes lose track of which article says what but, my very first search
found here...

: Unit 3 deposits are spread across the cave floor as loosely packed, semi-moist, orange
: mud clasts of varying sizes in which bone material of H. naledi is distributed.

So. You really are lame. If it'll help, I'll try to act surprised.

Naledi wandered deep into the cave, drawn in by cool, moist air during a
time of drought, only to be trapped & die. It was nature's own "Roach Motel"
where Naledi checked in but they didn't check out.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/676775721186869248

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Feb 22, 2022, 1:56:55 AMFeb 22
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:

> This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
> are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
> answer.

It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
third cite:

https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/

Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't
find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the
prospects seem grim.

Blessings.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/676775721186869248

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Mar 1, 2022, 11:11:32 PMMar 1
to
Jerm wrote:
> I Envy JTEM wrote:
>
>> This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
>> are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
>> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
>> answer.
>
> It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
> third cite:

It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.

> https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/
>
> Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't
> find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the
> prospects seem grim.

"...University professor Lee Berger put out a call for “skinny
anthropologists, biologists, cavers, not afraid of confined spaces”. Six
women were chosen as the explorers who would brave this dark cave system
with its high humidity. "


Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent
archaeological/paleontological
excavation skills for a short term project that may kick off as early as
November 1st 2013
and last the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
person must be
skinny and preferably small. They must not be claustrophobic, they must be
fit, they
should have some caving experience, climbing experience would be a bonus.
They must
be willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be a team
player.”


No mention of "high humidity"...


Schematic of the Rising Star cave system

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Mar 3, 2022, 4:56:07 AMMar 3
to
Penis Breath Sapienti wrote:

> > I Envy JTEM wrote:
> >
> >> This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
> >> are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
> >> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
> >> answer.
> >
> > It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
> > third cite:

> It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.

Explain. As you are by no means a raving jackass and you believe this statement
of yours to be true, walk us through it. Explain your rational. Employ quotes.

NOTE: I'm laughing at you! You keep bluffing and it keeps failing!

> > https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/
> >
> > Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't
> > find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the
> > prospects seem grim.

> "...University professor Lee Berger put out a call for “skinny
> anthropologists, biologists, cavers, not afraid of confined spaces”. Six
> women were chosen as the explorers who would brave this dark cave system
> with its high humidity. "

Oh. Okay. So three sites, two talk about moisture and one mentions humidity
and you claimed that no cites anywhere did this.

> Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

Why? Have you no clue how to build a case for something?

You've been proven wrong. Accept it and move on. STOP obfuscating.

> No mention of "high humidity"...

Great. YOU QUOTED IT PREVIOUSLY! You quoted the use of the word humidity
in describing the cave, and saw two previous cites mentioning the moisture.

It's done. The fat lady sang, the ship sailed... it's all over.

You are literally arguing against reality!

It's established. You helped establish it yourself by digging out the quote,
finally, after making a goddamn fool of yourself with the first two cites you
never read.

> going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...

Yeah, an animal literally dying of thirst in a drought could not possibly be
enticed by cool moist air... would never be attracted to that...

You're emotionally disturbed.

> "With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
> elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
> the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

And I'm wasting my time as you can't even comprehend what it's saying,
much less extrapolate it into some sort of argument but, what the hell do
you think this means? What does it refute in that scabbed over pea you
call a brain?

> "The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
> exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
> depositional history. "

Again, not addressing a goddamn thing... but you don't know that.

Unless you're currently so oxygen deprived that you simultaneously believe
that a SMALL NUMBER of individuals might not get trapped & die over a
period estimated to be 100,000 years or more, chiefly because the cave
system is too difficult/complex, but a population would plausible deposit
SOME of their dead -- but precious few?

Damn. You honestly are an idiot. It's not just an act.

These are not intentional burials. None of the evidence so much as suggests
it. Nothing you quoted leads to your idiotic "intentional burial" ramblings.






-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/677648736132923392




Primum Sapienti

unread,
Mar 16, 2022, 11:18:20 PMMar 16
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Penis Breath Sapienti wrote:
>
>>> I Envy JTEM wrote:
>>>
>>>> This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
>>>> are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
>>>> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
>>>> answer.
>>>
>>> It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
>>> third cite:
>
>> It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.
>
> Explain.


Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent
archaeological/paleontological
excavation skills for a short term project that may kick off as early as
November 1st 2013
and last the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
person must be
skinny and preferably small. They must not be claustrophobic, they must be
fit, they
should have some caving experience, climbing experience would be a bonus.
They must
be willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be a team
player.”


No mention of "high humidity"...


going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...


https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 4:55:25 AMMar 17
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

> Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

Great. Besides CONFIRMING what I stated, what else did you hope to accomplish?

Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's beyond
stupid, it's laughable.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/678857025448558592

Paul Crowley

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 8:29:37 AMMar 17
to
On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 03:18:20 UTC, Primum Sapienti wrote:

.> Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:
> https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html
>
> “We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent
> archaeological/paleontological excavation skills for a short term
> project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013 and last
> the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
> person must be skinny and preferably small. They must not be
> claustrophobic, they must be fit, they should have some caving
> experience, climbing experience would be a bonus. They must be
> willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be
> a team player.

> No mention of "high humidity"...

Google "caving humidity".

The applicants were required to have
caving experience, and so would have
known about the constant humidity.
No need to tell them.

Berger mentions in his videos about
the initial discovery that the first guys
to see the fossils found their cameras
would not work. The humidity was
so high.

Paul Crowley

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 8:33:11 AMMar 17
to
On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 08:55:25 UTC, I Envy JTEM wrote:

> Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's
> beyond stupid, it's laughable.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 9:15:46 AMMar 17
to
Caves are almost universally consistently damp and cool. If the surface entrance exuded the scent of humid air in an arid drought, many species would have detected it and attempted to enter for refreshment, gotten trapped and died leaving skeletons. There was something not obvious today which enabled hominins but not others to leave their carcasses there.
I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found it. Rest in peace.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 9:31:06 AMMar 17
to
http://www.sci-news.com/featurednews/homo-naledi-fossils-04843.html

Hnaledi had unique vertebrae only found elsewhere in Hneandertal.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 10:27:28 AMMar 17
to
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Temperature-in-Sakoto-cave-versus-woodland-habitat-and-chimpanzee-cave-visits-weeks_fig1_6214729

Chimps in Fongoli Senegal savannah rest in caves during dry season (no water) during the hottest time of the day. In tropical forests, they make day nests in canopy shade.

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Mar 17, 2022, 8:34:14 PMMar 17
to
Paul Crowley wrote:

> When your beliefs are so rigid that you
> have to block out all contrary evidence,
> it's you that is the problem.

Is this a come-on? Are you hitting on me? Look. I'm flattered, I'm sure, but
I don't think I want to $#%& you. Sorry.

I mean, *I Know* you're not serious about this retarded "Intentional burial"
thing. How many individuals are represented? Over how long a period of
time?

Where are the rest?

These animals didn't have fire, they certainly weren't ritualistic...

That's insane. No, clearly, you're trying to win my sexual favors with a
display of your humor. But, sorry, not interested.





-- --

https://rumble.com/vr5fsv-confessions-of-an-ex-hippie.html

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 19, 2022, 7:15:05 AMMar 19
to
On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:15:46 AM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
I use 'hominins' here in the sense of basal kin to Homo, they were probably a branch of Pan-bonobo/Homo that slept in arboreal bowl nests in wet season and ground nests (possibly in caves when available) in dry swamps during dry season (as some chimps do, avoiding both wet and dry predators, probably mostly bipedal with only incipient knucklewalking). Dominant bonobo females sleep highest in trees, curved finger bones aid climbing.

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 1:01:36 AMMar 30
to
Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 03:18:20 UTC, Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
> .> Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:
>> https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html
>>
>> “We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent
>> archaeological/paleontological excavation skills for a short term
>> project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013 and last
>> the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
>> person must be skinny and preferably small. They must not be
>> claustrophobic, they must be fit, they should have some caving
>> experience, climbing experience would be a bonus. They must be
>> willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be
>> a team player.
>
>> No mention of "high humidity"...
>
> Google "caving humidity".

We're talking about one and only one cave here.

Primum Sapienti

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 1:02:48 AMMar 30
to
I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Primum Sapienti wrote:
>
>> Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:
>
> Great. Besides CONFIRMING what I stated, what else did you hope to accomplish?
>
> Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's beyond
> stupid, it's laughable.

Germ would look at a tiny narrow hole and say, hey everyone, let's squeeze
in there
and cool off... someone give me a push...

Paul Crowley

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 9:27:00 AMMar 30
to
On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 13:15:46 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
.
> I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
> air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
> wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
> deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
> than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
> gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
> key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
> mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
> large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
> it. Rest in peace.

littor...@gmail.com

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 11:58:09 AMMar 30
to
Somebody:

> > I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
> > air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
> > wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
> > deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep ...

:-DDD

> When your beliefs are so rigid that you
> have to block out all contrary evidence,
> it's you that is the problem.

Yes, google e.g.
"ape human evolution made easy PPT Verhaegen"

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 3:43:20 PMMar 30
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:


> We're talking about one and only one cave here.

No we're not. The point about the moist air was settled long ago. But
you're still mouthing off. So it's not about any cave, no facts matter
here, this is all about YOU and YOUR inability to admit that you were
wrong.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/_MTWZY_Vxe4/m/cBQieefIFgAJ

I had forgotten the third cite, which I clearly reference there, but as it's
in this very thread, and you are pretending to be talking about a cave
and the facts surrounding it, you no doubt are already looking back and
finding it. That third cite. Pretending the two I presented in the abover
weren't enough.

So what's the issue here? a cave?

No. It's your inability to admit that you were wrong.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680033542752829440

I Envy JTEM

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 3:45:27 PMMar 30
to
Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

Grow some pubic hair, finally, and pretend that you're maturing. That way
you can maybe find enough integrity to admit that you were wrong.

Or you could just continue down this toboggan plunge into shame...





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680033542752829440

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 10:32:28 PMMar 30
to
What contrary evidence?

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 10:33:33 PMMar 30
to
> "ape human evolution made fake PPT Verhaegen"
Fixed.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 30, 2022, 10:34:59 PMMar 30
to
Cool cave hot day. Not complicated.

Paul Crowley

unread,
Mar 31, 2022, 3:19:11 PMMar 31
to
On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 03:32:28 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

>>> I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
>>> air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
>>> wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
>>> deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
>>> than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
>>> gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
>>> key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
>>> mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
>>> large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
>>> it. Rest in peace.
>> ..
>> When your beliefs are so rigid that you
>> have to block out all contrary evidence,
>> it's you that is the problem.
>> ..
> What contrary evidence?

Those caves!

See https://twitter.com/johnhawks?lang=en

John Hawks and Lee Berger recently went into
the 'entrance' to the system, squeezing through
the 'superman crawl'. It's been widened, and
can now take over-weight middle aged men.
See the brief videos.

Even with light the complexity of the various
chamber and passages are confusing. It's a
3-dimensional puzzle. The entrance to the
'superman crawl' is far down in the cave, well
beyond any light. I hadn't realised that the
"dragon's back" was a narrow ridge, with a
steep fall of several metres if you slipped.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/

No one would ever go so far into such a cave
without light. The absence of animal fossils
of all other species tells you that.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

unread,
Mar 31, 2022, 6:52:02 PMMar 31
to
On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 3:19:11 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 03:32:28 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> >>> I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
> >>> air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
> >>> wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
> >>> deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
> >>> than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
> >>> gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
> >>> key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
> >>> mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
> >>> large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
> >>> it. Rest in peace.
> >> ..
> >> When your beliefs are so rigid that you
> >> have to block out all contrary evidence,
> >> it's you that is the problem.
> >> ..
> > What contrary evidence?
>
> Those caves!

Those 3D underground labyrinths sound like excellent places to cool down on a hot hot day, predators and parasites unable to attack, food stored in the cellar during drought, plenty of room to rest, silence allowed primitive echolocation as guidance in the pitch black using clicks and sticks and stones. Do you think that Berger and Hawks are their body size?

> See https://twitter.com/johnhawks?lang=en
>
> John Hawks and Lee Berger recently went into
> the 'entrance' to the system, squeezing through
> the 'superman crawl'. It's been widened, and
> can now take over-weight middle aged men.
> See the brief videos.
>
> Even with light the complexity of the various
> chamber and passages are confusing. It's a
> 3-dimensional puzzle. The entrance to the
> 'superman crawl' is far down in the cave, well
> beyond any light. I hadn't realised that the
> "dragon's back" was a narrow ridge, with a
> steep fall of several metres if you slipped.
>
> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/
>
> No one would ever go so far into such a cave
> without light. The absence of animal fossils
> of all other species tells you that.

Primitive telegraphy. The blind man rules the darkest cave.

Paul Crowley

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Apr 1, 2022, 7:49:31 AMApr 1
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On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 23:52:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

>> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/
>>..
> > No one would ever go so far into such a cave
> > without light. The absence of animal fossils
> > of all other species tells you that.
>..
> Primitive telegraphy. The blind man rules the darkest cave.

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves

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Apr 1, 2022, 8:50:34 AMApr 1
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Ignorance is bliss, Gilligan.

Primum Sapienti

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Apr 18, 2022, 12:32:21 AMApr 18
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So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

littor...@gmail.com

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Apr 18, 2022, 7:53:39 AMApr 18