Op zaterdag 2 oktober 2021 om 02:55:52 UTC+2 schreef
peter2...@gmail.com:
> > > > Francesca Mansfield:
> > > > The Red Sea Hypothesis gives us a date & a reason why Homo & Pan split:
> > > > there were no trees or vegetation, just cliffs, desert & sea in that location during the Pliocene.
> > > > Homo had no option but total immersion to survive.
> > > > Pan OTOH crossed into Africa, and had a nr of diverse environments to re-adapt to, incl. coasts & forests.
> > > > That's why the genome also shows
> > > > - a rel.recent, but sudden split with Pan,
> > > Usually dated about 6mya or a bit earlier.
> > OK. H/P = 5 Ma is fine with me, but it might have been somewhat earlier.
> > > What's your hypothesis on this? Francesca's?
> > We have about the same ideas, I had thought early-Pleistocene coastal dispersal (Stephen Munro), esp.Ind.Ocean,
> > but Pliocene Red Sea might be where it ("aquatic"ape = diving for shellfish) started or even evolved mostly.
> > > > - far more diversity from that point on in Pan,
> > > > - so many "hominin" spp in Africa. (Francesca means australopiths --MV)
> > > Closer to Homo erectus than to Pan, phylogenetically?
> > Google "Lucy was no human ancestor PPT verhaegen".
> Do you think she was a chimp ancestor? or vice versa?
:-)
I see you haven't googled "Lucy was no human ancestor PPT verhaegen".
E.Afr.apiths incl.Lucy are morphologically closer to Gorilla than to Pan, e.g.
• “Incisal dental microwear in A.afarensis is most similar to that observed in Gorilla”. Ryan & Johanson, 1989.
• The composite skull reconstructed mostly from A.L.333 specimens “looked very much like a small female gorilla”. Johanson & Edey, 1981, p. 351.
• “Other primitive [or advanced gorilla-like? MV] features found in KNM-WT 17000, but not know or much discussed for A. afarensis, are: very small cranial capacity; low posterior profile of the calvaria; nasals extended far above the frontomaxillar suture and well onto an uninflated glabella; and extremely convex inferolateral margins of the orbits such as found in some gorillas”. Walker et al., 1986.
• As for the maximum parietal breadth and the biauriculare in O.H.5 and KNM-ER 406 “the robust australopithecines have values near the Gorilla mean: both the pongids and the robust australopithecines have highly pneumatized bases”. Kennedy, 1991 (see also his fig. 1).
• In O.H.5, “the curious and characteristic features of the Paranthropus skull... parallel some of those of the gorilla”. Robinson, 1960.
• The A. boisei “lineage has been characterized by sexual dimorphism of the degree seen in modern Gorilla for the length of its known history”. Leakey & Walker, 1988.
• A. boisei teeth showed “a relative absence of prism decussation”; among extant hominoids, “Gorilla enamel showed relatively little decussation ...”. Beynon & Wood, 1986 (cf. Beynon et al., 1991).
> > > > We went in entirely different directions.
> > > > They spread out into Africa, while Homo got stuck in the Red Sea for a couple of mill.yrs.
> > > > By the time H.erectus emerged into the Pleistocene, and started spreading round the coasts, it was already aquatically adapted.
> > > > Pleistocene Homo did not suddenly appear with all those aquatic features fully formed.
> > > Which ones were they, and why did Australopithecus have a more human pelvis than Pan?
> > Here, they = Pan, we = Homo.
> > The apith pelvis was primitive for all hominids:
> > - P & G in parallel (allopatrically) lengthened the iliac blades,
> > - Hs lost the iliac flaring.
> Interesting. I'm slowly getting a feel for your theory. Heterodox, but it seems to have
> internal consistency.
:-) It' perfect (AFAIK).
> > > > There had to be a period before that when they were acquiring them (Pliocene), and there's nothing to suggest they retained arboreal features from that time.
> > > In fact, by that time they had fully opposable thumbs. This is a much neglected feature
> > > separating humans from all other animals, AFAIK. And tremendously useful.
> > Early anthropoids (& even earlier?) probably already had opposable thumbs: for grasping branches & different sorts of foods
> I've seen photos which purport to show that chimps do not have *fully* opposable thumbs.
> Fine for picking up small things between thumb and edge of the base of the hand,
> but not between thumb and tips of phalanges.
Pan & Gorilla hands are very derived, of course, they evolved knuckle-walking in //:
P & G KWing are very different in detail, morphologically & embryologically.
> > = preadaptation for opening shellfish with stone tools.
> > > > We (Stephen Munro etc.) had thought that our most-aquatic evolution was early-Pleistocene
> > > > cf. H.erectus in SE.Asia: Java, Flores, Luzon...
> > > > google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT",
> > > > but Francesca might well be correct IMO:
> > > > the Red Sea Hypothesis.
> > > > Paleo-anthropologists start digging in the Red Sea??
> > > > Discussion at
a...@groups.io:
> > aat @
groups.io (omit spaces)
> > > Masked like this, it is useless. I unmasked it to read aat before the @ symbol, but it asked me
> > > which service to link thru, suggesting a gmail account of mine. But this led to the
> > > sinister warning that I was giving Windows permission to delete all email and much else
> > > from that Google account. So I canceled the effort to get to the discussion that you are supposedly linking.
> > > Do you have a safer route?
> > Unnecessary AFAIK: we're using it a few years.
> Well, I realized belatedly that it is an e-mail address, apparently a listserv or whatever
> they call "e-mail lists" these days. The first move would have to be by me, but whom
> do I address? does it automatically go to the whole group of subscribers?
Yes.
> > > > > Yes, Bioko is nonsense,
> > > > > but might Elaine's "Danakil" be correct?
> > > How about a description of Bioko and Danakil?
> > > I never heard of either.
> > :-) Forget Bioko. Perhaps google "Elaine Morgan Danakil".
> Is it easy to navigate to a description of her main hypothesis?
Yes; but in short:
Elaine thought some "chimp" got isolated on Danakil in the Red Sea (H/P split 5 Ma), and evolved there as "aquatic ape":
fur loss, upright, SC fat, large brain etc.etc., +- everything that discerns humans from chimps.
(Not very correct of course, e.g. both H & P evolved after the split, but I could never convice her of this.)
> > > > > Very likely, hominids came from the Red Sea
> > > > > (and before that from the Med.Sea),
> > > > > but was our (Homo's) *most*aquatic past
> > > > > -Pliocene in the Red Sea?
> > > > > -early-Pleistocene along the Ind.Ocean?
> > > > > The anthropological "Red Sea Theory" (not biblical).
> > > > > Google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT"
> > > I'm more curious about when and from what species you and the others
> > > think Pan broke away from our ancestry.
> > Then google
> > - "ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen" or
> > - our TREE paper "Aquarboral Ancestors".
> Thanks, I'll take a look this weekend. I'm curious to see where it puts Sahelanthropus.
:-) Probably an early hominid, close to Orrorin.
> > Probably from an gracile apith-like or Ardipithecus-like or even Oreopith-like ancestor.
> > We think Miocene hominoids followed the Tethys Ocean coasts.
> > IMO, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure 16 or 15 Ma caused the hominid/pongid split:
> > - aquarboreal early pongids followed the Ind.Ocean shores (and forced the hylobatids higher into the trees),
> > - aquarboreal early hominids colonized the Med.Sea & from there the Red Sea coasts.
> Do you think any of them took alternative routes between Africa and Europe when the
> Straits of Gibraltar was closed and most of the Mediterranean was dried up?
> Peter Nyikos
Well possible, but unknown AFAIK (no fossils).
Aquarborealism explains best why hominoids
- lost the tail,
- got much larger (secondarily reduced in hylobatids, but still very long gestation),
- evolved very broad bodies (Latisternalia): thorax-sternum & pelvis: for lateral amr & leg movements?
- got a centrally-placed spine (other primates & most mammas have dorsally-placed spines),
google our TREE paper "Aquarboreal Ancestors".
Miocene aquarboreal hominoids colonized most Tethys Ocean coastal forests?
After the Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma, hominids lived in Med & Red Sea coastal forests, and pongids along the Asian Ind.Ocean.
Nice to see serious discussions & questions here, Peter.