Op zondag 14 augustus 2022 om 18:29:52 UTC+2 schreef yelw...@gmail.com
> >> The question is whether hominoids
> >> evolved from hylobatids or vice versa.
> >> One came first, and the other evolved from it.
It's extremely unlikely that 1 branch had undergone a lot of evolution, and the other branch 0.
> > No, no: hylobatids & great apes had a LCA, probably some 20 Ma.
> > This LCA was no hylobatid, and no great ape.
> Why not invent a new, wholly
> different, wholly unknown species?
> That is NOT parsimonious.
0 invention: facts:
very wide pelvis, thorax & sternum,
centrally-placed spine with less lumbar, more sacral & less coccygal vertebrae,
> It fits another of your curious habits:
> when it's agreed that the phylogeny of a
> well-known taxon split you routinely
> imagine there was an LCA of an
> unknown nature at the splitting point
> (but you always shove in some swamp
> or watery aspect).
I had predicted aquarboreal Miocene Hominoidea a few years before the wading Ndoki gorillas had been discovered!
> This is in addition to
> your other mental habit of assuming
> that one branch went east and the
> other west -- or north/south.
Not my fault that hylobatids live in SE.Asia, and that sivapiths-pongids lived E of dryopiths-hominids, etc.etc.
> Evolution does not work like that.
Do you really believe plate tectonics can't have influence on evolution???
> We can see incipient stages in action. Take
> seagulls. New populations (that don't
> interbreed with normal seagulls) are
> now occupying cities, often far from
> the coast. They nest on roofs, and feed
> on garbage dumps. In time (if humans
> don't change their ways) there will be
> a new species of City Gulls.
Yes, many Mio-Pliocene Hominoidea simply followed lakes/rivers/swamp... inland in parallel, just like your seagulls.
> No LCA. No north/south, nor east/west split.
??? There are always LCAs, of course.
> There are two more parsimonious
> theories: (a) large apes evolved from
> large monkeys (let's say baboon-like)
> (b) gibbons evolved from small or
> medium sized monkeys.
Hylobatids & gr.apes are closely related.
All hominoids have numerous hominoid innovations, not seen in monkeys,
wide sternum, as the old primatologists already saw (but you don't even see this?!).
> > Comparative anatomy shows it waded bipedally in forest swamps, and climbed arms
> > overhead in the branches above the swamp.
> "Comparative anatomy" involving
> an imaginary species is worse than
> a waste of time.
*You* are imaginary & a waste of time!
> > Questions that remain are: where did it live? in which swamp forests exactly?
> > Most likely IMO, they lived in coastal forests (did mangroves already exist?)
> Mangrove forests certainly existed,
> but they are hostile to mammalian
> (and many other) species, especially
> primates. They lack fresh water.
Nasalis regularly wades bipedally in salt water.
I don't know whether Hominoidea originally lived in fresh- or salt-water forests,
but salt-water is more likely IMO, cf. Nasalis.